Author Topic: EV Nose Cap (Read 11127 times)

Woodstock · « **on:** February 20, 2010, 06:36:22 PM »

I am at the stage of installing the nose cap on an Early Virginia pre carved stock. The problem is the cap is ½” deep and 1” wide. The forestock is 1” deep from the apex to the bottom of the stock and 1” wide to include the rod challel. ½” of wood will have to come out of the thickness in order for the cap to fit the barrel (7/8” octagon barrel). If I do this, it will take out the ramrod channel completely. There is not enough wood to re-cut another rod channel. If I do not try and shape the stock to the cap all the way down I will be left with a taper from the stock to the nose cap at the end of the barrel. Would this be acceptable? I have only seen one picture where it was done this way. All others appear (from what I could tell from the pictures) to be the same size as the cap pretty much all the way down. Is there a standard height and width of the forestock on this particular rifle? I am leaning in the direction of shaping the stock as close as I can get it, and making a nose cap the fit. If there is a better way please let me know. This is a hard one to describe. I hope my questions make since.

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #1 on:** February 20, 2010, 06:53:04 PM »

I am not sure I completely understand your problem. A couple of pictures of the forearm and your cap would help. I will say that I don't necessarily see a problem as long as your nose piece does not have a channel for the ramrod. I don't believe that I have ever seen an early rifle that had the ramrod channel extend through the nose piece. You normally see that on later guns. All my early nose pieces are round on the bottom. In other words, I completely cut away the ramrod groove at the muzzle. Now, doing that and handling the transition is an art in itself. On my last rifle, I ran the forearm moulding around into an acanthus leaf design at the transition. I also make my own nose pieces to fit, which eliminates any problems such as yours. A one-piece (round bottom) nose piece is very easy to make if you need to do that.

Ken G · « **Reply #2 on:** February 20, 2010, 07:13:04 PM »

As Mark said a picture is worth a thousand words. I'll take a shot at a guess. My guess is the wood comes up too high on the sides of the barrel. Does the wood cover more than 1/2 of the side barrel flat? You may need to lower the side rails along the entire length of the barrel.
Ken

Woodstock · « **Reply #3 on:** February 20, 2010, 07:23:56 PM »

Thanks for the interest. Pictures are on the way. I am no photographer and still on dial up. Please bare with me.

Ky-Flinter · « **Reply #4 on:** February 20, 2010, 07:36:37 PM »

Hi ya Woodstock,
If I'm understanding your question, I'm thinking you need to do something like these.

Note: I shoulda taken the top of the stock wood down to expose more of the barrel on the rifle above. First rifle, live and learn.

These aren't Virginia rifles, so your treatment may vary some, but, yes, I believe your RR channel will "disappear" a little before it gets to the nose cap.

-Ron

Dr. Tim-Boone · « **Reply #5 on:** February 20, 2010, 08:04:30 PM »

My thought is to make the front of your first pipe a really good hand's width back from the muzzle and give yourself room to come down from the RR channel to the level of the nosecap and make a nice VA style molding transition at the end of the channel like the lower two pics from Ron.

Actually the bottom of your RR channel should be the same distance from the bottom of the barrel as the bottom of the nosecap is. Just the web is there.......about 1/8" Lots of room for your tapered RR!!

Woodstock · « **Reply #6 on:** February 20, 2010, 09:58:17 PM »

OK here is what I have. The barrel channel is centered the barrel flat so I have a little room. KY, pic 1 is about the same as the pic I saw. I want to avoid this or minimize it if I can. The black you see is a pencil with the eraser blacked out so the channel would show up.

Dr. Tim-Boone · « **Reply #7 on:** February 20, 2010, 10:37:51 PM »

its perfect. I think<<<<< your nosecap blocks my view of the end of the barrel and stock.........The thickness of the wood between the nosecap and the barrel should ony be the thickness of the web...the wood between your pencil (the RR channel)and the barrel. It will come out like Ron's pictures # 2 and # 3.

If you put the nosecap on the bare barrel with the sides at 1/2/ or less od the side flat covered you should have about 1/8"+ between the barrel and the nosecap.

Is any of this being helpful??

Birddog6 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 20, 2010, 11:07:27 PM »

Fit the nosecap up to the muzzle in reverse & see how much wood you have showing. If you have no wood between the RR groove & muzzlecap, it is perfect.
If you have a tad of wood show, drop the side rail of wood a tad down on each side of the barrel side flats, thus drops the cap down.
If you are going to have to drop it down too much to keep from having a gap between the RR & the nosecap, the cap will not fit correctly & you need another cap or you need to make another one. (IMHO)

Keith

Woodstock · « **Reply #9 on:** February 21, 2010, 12:02:29 AM »

DTB,
Yes very helpful. I am starting to get the picture. I think you suggestion of placing the pipe a hands width away will lessen the transition. It is destined for a transition or a new cap, one or the other. I see no way around it. I ran out of material and will have to place an order and wait until it gets here. Probably will work with what I have.

Birddog, I taped the cap on in reverses so I was sure to get it just under the barrel near its final resting place. I wanted to show the amount of wood that will have to come off to include the barrel channel which would need to go anyway due to the type of cap it is. I will have to scrape the sides down considerably so the cap will have some wood to hang onto and come up the sides of the barrel. How far is too far to lower the sides?

Mark,

You are correct as always. This part is an art for sure. Personally in my opinion I have not ran across anything yet on this build that has not been in need of an Artisan. Just enough tedious work, thought and planning to make you want to build another.

Many thanks for the help.

Birddog6 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 21, 2010, 12:36:29 AM »

That is up to the individual, but I have seen many of them with 2/3 of the side flat showing, but would not do more than that. I prefer just a tad over 1/2 of the flat showing. And it needs to feather back the forestock too, not have 2/3 flat showing & then 2" back have 2/3 flat hiding in the wood. Try to keep it even on both sides and feather very gradually to the pan of the lock.

Dr. Tim-Boone · « **Reply #11 on:** February 21, 2010, 12:45:05 AM »

Woodstock, Just out of curiosity, how thick is the web (wood between the barrel channel and the RR channel) at the muzzle of your stock??

it should be about 1/8 inch or maybe a 16th more. These guns are slim!! If it was precarved that way, you should only have to remove RR groove rails to fit the nosecap.

Woodstock · « **Reply #12 on:** February 21, 2010, 03:02:40 AM »

Tim,
After reading your question to Mark, I went back out to the shop had a look and you are on the money. If I remove the RR rails, scrape a bit off the barrel channel rails it should be a good fit. The web on this particular stock is about ¼” if I understand what the web is. I measured the wood that was left after inletting the entry pipe and the middle pipe between the bottom of the barrel flat and the top of the RR channel. I inlet them just below the surface of the wood. After the scraping is done to smooth out the RR channel so the pipes will sit flush with the wood, I will end up with about 1/8th or possibly a little more. I would like to see what Mark has to say but I think you are PDC.

Dr. Tim-Boone · « **Reply #13 on:** February 21, 2010, 03:18:37 AM »

Sorry, I meant to ask you the question, not Mark.

1/4" of wood between the bottom of the ramrod channel and the bottom of the barrel channel should do you well. Is that the same mount of room you have inside the bottom portion of the nosecap when you put it on the bare barrel?

Woodstock · « **Reply #14 on:** February 21, 2010, 04:17:37 PM »

Dr Boone,

The answer to your question is no but almost. With the barrel protruding about a ¼” past the stock and cap, the front lip on the cap keeps it off the barrel 1/8th. I guess that will leave me with 1/8” of wood at the bottom with a little more on the sides to hold the cap on. That is with the cap flush with the bottom of the barrel.

I am sure glad I put this out there before I started cutting.
thanks,
Patrick

Dr. Tim-Boone · « **Reply #15 on:** February 21, 2010, 06:11:31 PM »

Phew! That one is shallow! Gentle with the wood removal. I am not sure the PC way of attaching a nosecap on a VA rifle but It is unlikely you have enough room for a pin, its even a little thin wood for a rivet from the bottom...... Peronally if I were to use this nosecap I would consider epoxy! (heresy!!)

Woodstock · « **Reply #16 on:** February 21, 2010, 07:05:58 PM »

Yeayaaaaaaa that’s kinda was what I was thinking. I am making a trip to the neighbors house this afternoon to have a look at his one more time before I start cutting. Something just does not feel right about this. If I remember right, his has the same cap and the forestock is really slim all the way down. I am no authority but this is a well built gun. You can see and feel the quality when you handle it. I did not notice any pins or rivets or such the last time I looked it over. Not sure as to how it was done. Depending on what I see this afternoon, I may wind up making another cap or modifying the one I have. Duh no. May have to study on this one a while longer.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #17 on:** February 21, 2010, 07:45:48 PM »

Here's a couple pictures of the muzzle of my Virginia rifle. I don't think there should be any light showing between the ramrod and the nose piece. The nose piece is the full thickness of the web. Making your own rather than using a commercially available nose piece will make a big difference in the muzzle of your rifle.

Woodstock · « **Reply #18 on:** February 21, 2010, 08:18:44 PM »

Taylor,
Thanks for the pictures. Tremendous help. Saved me some drive time to the neighbors.
By looking at the cap, it appears to be identical to the one I have. Is the “lip” that the barrel is sitting on about 1/8” in depth? What is the height and width of the finished forestock? How would you make the octagon part to fit the barrel on the nose cap? Make is separate and solder on?
Sorry for so many questions. I am anxious to get going on this. Running out of time. Leaving out for Bangor in the morning. Will gone a couple of weeks.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #19 on:** February 21, 2010, 08:32:04 PM »

This is a casting that came with the parts set from Chambers. It was quite a bit undersized, but would fit on the barrel back at the swamp. I just filed out the octagon a little at a time moving it toward the muzzle until I was there. The rifle is in the truck right now - heading to the woods, but I'll take those dimensions for you and post later today, if it will help. No two rifles will be alike, so my dimensions may or may not apply to your rifle.

Woodstock · « **Reply #20 on:** February 21, 2010, 08:36:47 PM »

Thank you and yes it would help. It will give me some idea as to what to shoot for.
Many thanks and good luck in the woods. Nothing in season here but pigs.

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #21 on:** February 22, 2010, 08:16:19 AM »

Woodstock,

Having seen your pictures, I really don't think that the nose piece you have will work. There is just not enough allowance for the wood under the barrel and your web is way too thick. I have had that problem since I inlet my own barrels and cut my own ramrod grooves; but I would send back a pre-carve that came to me that way. I cut my ramrod groove so that they are 5/32" at the muzzle and try to run them straight back. Usually they drift down a bit as you go toward the breech. I think the only fix you have at this point (and I have done this many times) is to deepen the ramrod groove at the muzzle tapering to the ramrod entry hole. I would use a plane for that, but a gouge and round rasp will do. It does need to be cut straight between the two points, and you will have to thin down and reshape your upper forearm. I would cut the web down to 5/32" at the muzzle and then make a one piece nose piece to fit. It should look something like Taylor's.

You are, of course, going to cut away the ramrod groove from the muzzle to just in front of the front ramrod pipe. I will try to get a couple of pictures for you of what it should look like.

Mark

Woodstock · « **Reply #22 on:** February 22, 2010, 07:39:14 PM »

Thanks Mark,
I would have sent the stock back had I known before hand what to look for. It has been one problem after another. A wise gentleman once said, (I believe his name was Taylor) If you send it back you will never learn how to fix it. With some help, I have managed to fix everything so far. It is taking a lot more time but I really do not mind. I am in no rush to get it done.
I started working on the new nose piece last night. I used my jewelers saw and cut out the existing octagon part. I think the width is ok. It fits the barrel real well. I plan to make another part ¼” (which will double it) in height or play around with it to get what I need and solder it back in. I THINK, this modification to the cap and after some work on the web, should give me a good fit with plenty of wood and lessen or eliminate any transitions from the cap to the stock. It should come out smooth and even all the way down. Again, I THINK. Any pictures would be appreciated.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #23 on:** February 22, 2010, 08:01:43 PM »

That first picture was of my brand new rifle...here's one taken yesterday. And this is a sketch of the muzzle with some dimensions. You can see that the web on this stock is less than 3/16" and that the rod fits right against it. On this rifle, the vertical sides of the barrel channel are much less than half a flat, determined by the nose piece and the lock plate, and continue for the forend's full length. This gives the stock a very graceful and slim profile.

Woodstock · « **Reply #24 on:** February 22, 2010, 08:17:09 PM »

Taylor,
PEFECT!!!
Thanks. Can’t wait to get back home and get on it. The dimensions you have will be real close to what I wind up with after the modifications to the cap.
Hop on over to Bangor and I will by lunch.

Thanks again

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Author Topic: EV Nose Cap (Read 11127 times)

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