Author Topic: The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting  (Read 7422 times)

jwh1947

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The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting
« on: March 01, 2010, 02:13:51 AM »
Ever hear the old folk statement, "this thing just doesn't smell right?"

Allow a gun trader with an average brain and a sharp nose to tell you something.  People may wonder why I question the notion of vetting guns by pictures alone, a point upon which  I am steadfast and unrepentant.  Go ahead and have your fun, give your platitudes, and make yourselves feel good and, especially, make yourself look like someone who knows a lot, but face it, we are all, you and I, dealing in the realm of uncertainty.   Face to face with words and pictures.  OK...  Here's one point we miss here, and the Internet, so far, has absoluely no solution.

My nose is important in a gun deal.  On Kentuckies, I can smell Permalyn, certain commercial dyes, and polyurethane like a trained Labrador can smell cocaine.  On any gun I can smell commercial cold-blues, and insta-brown chemicals, even when inebriated.

On the modern P38 market, the only way to tell an NOS WWII German pistol holster from Ukraine is by the stitching and by the smell of 60-year-old, stored Deutsch leather.  There is simply no other odor like it, and it is rather appealing.

Ya' gotta have them in your hands, friends.  Then, still, you can miss things.   I know I am not necessarily good for business, just honest.  Wayne

                       

 

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2010, 05:56:23 AM »
Wayne will you marry me?   ;D ;D ;D

I've been telling people for years that the first thing I do when someone presents me with an old gun is to sniff it.  They look at me like I'm insane.

There is a 'smell,' a very characteristic "old" smell, that is very, very difficult to induce save genuine age.  Impossible?  No, but extremely difficult.

Trust to the nose, people!
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Offline albert

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Re: The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2010, 06:47:42 AM »
you guys are GOOD,will you come to Missouri and go mushroom hunting with me this spring ?
j albert miles

John A. Stein

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Re: The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2010, 07:32:23 AM »
When working around old clocks and antique furniture one of the first things you learn that old wood, no matter what kind, has a distinctive smell that can't be faked.  John Stein

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2010, 03:44:32 PM »
I'm a sniffer too.  ;D
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Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2010, 04:11:10 PM »
  It's a big part of the whole experience.  I remember years ago seeing a film where Frank Zappa said that the best part of playing an accordian was the way the air smelled when it came out of the little holes

Offline JTR

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Re: The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2010, 06:23:05 PM »


While I agree with you on the sniff test, I don’t think it’s any secret to anyone that’s collected old guns or furniture, other than someone just starting out. A newly made patchbox cavity just doesn’t smell the same as a 200 year old one, and that is something to watch out for.

On the other hand, unless you have the connections and bucks to collect totally original guns, the hint of linseed oil, dyes, or browning solutions wouldn’t be all that unusual. And, if you get right down to it, most of the Greatest Rifles have had at least some restoration done to them at some point, although the scent of that work might well be long gone.

Personally, while I have the desire, I just don’t have the bucks to write a check for 35 to 50 thousand dollars for a rifle. But even at that price range, you’re still going to find restoration on the vast majority of guns. Basically, the way I see it, the more expensive the gun is, the more likely it will have had some fixin’ done to it at some point, right up to and including the 100 thousand dollar beauties.

Fortunately for the new, or low level collector, more of the cheapo guns, say $1000 to $3000, seem to be original, since they’re not worth enough money to warrant  much restoration.

If on the other hand, if you mean detecting those odors to determine if the gun is a new made fake, there’s lots of other giveaways to a new made fake other than just smell. Besides, any good faker worth his salt is going to remove those odors by burying the gun in a pile of manure or some such thing anyway.

I agree that buying a gun from just a picture can be risky and its well know that not all dealers advertize them with total and complete honesty. However most seem to offer an inspection period, so you have some degree of safety.

As for vetting guns by pictures alone, I assume you’re referring the library here? True, the guys on the library vetting committee only have pictures to go by, and varying amounts of information supplied by the person submitting the pictures. Personally I think they are doing a good job, and doubt that any of them are doing it to make their selves feel good or important. More so, I think most guys frequenting this site appreciate the efforts of those involved to present a wide variety of guns that are otherwise unseen and mostly unpublished. I’m also sure that it’s not a perfect situation, and that some mistakes have, or will be made on some guns. However, the alternative is to just stick with the published books, which, as we all know, are not totally correct either.

Generally I enjoy what you post, if not necessarily agreeing with all of it, and hey, if you’re one of the fortunate few able to collect only original and untouched rifles, why not submit some of them to the library, so we can all enjoy them!

Best Regards,
John       
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Offline smshea

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Re: The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2010, 07:38:42 PM »
 Personally I read Wayne's statement as more of a warning for those who are unfortunately limited to access of allot of original work due to geography. Pictures rarely due justice to anything much less rifles wether they be original or contemporary. For the purposes of the library here, pictures are all we can hope for and I for one am grateful for them but making assumptions (especially value) based of photos alone is unwise.
 Everyone starts their inspection of original work differently and what is an acceptable amount of restoration also varies depending on the individual. Here in Central Pa you can do the gun gun show circut and watch a butt stock and barrel make some increadable transformations over a few years time as it changes hands. As the prices of the higher end stuff shoot up , guns that would have been considered "junk" locally ten years ago are getting a second look. This I personally have no problem with, but the values of  allot of these newly rehabilitated and previously condemned  rifles is anyones guess. So educating people on how to inspect a gun is very important less they fall prey to one of the unscrupulous or even unknowing dealers that would pump their guns into a wide eyed and unknowing public. As interest in entry level Kentuckys rises, some how....so does supply.  I spent part of my day at a show yesterday with Reeves Georing , watching him go over a bunch of "Bits and Pieces" and give his opinions, I hung on every word  and watched his inspection process because he forgot more about Kentuckys then I will ever hope to know.Education from someone who knows is worth paying for... because eventually you will, one way or another.  

One other thing you need to train your nose for is body filler ...You would be shocked!

 

    
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 01:51:35 AM by smshea »

jwh1947

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Re: The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2010, 10:20:21 PM »
Scott and I are singing the same tune.  As for ALR library, I do not single them out.  Heck, I used to be one of them.  I am saying, however, when I hear value numbers fly around on this or any other site, I cringe.  I would advise, for both research integrity and to preclude possibly sticky entanglement, that the practice of saying things like , "this looks like a $4500 gun," etc. be avoided.  It can lead to only trouble.

As for crisp guns without restoration, I've sent you a few and they are there in the museum, or, at least, were, last time I looked.  I've had difficulity with my photo upload program , but I've sent other pics that may be in the pipeline, but have never heard about those.

As for not agreeing with all I say, JTR, please understand that sometimes I catch myself defending both sides of an argument...simultameously.  When I start believing myself too much, I sit down, take a deep breath and have a stiff belt of rakija.  I keep talking about this stuff...distilled only in old Europe; blindness is only temporary.  Tremedous flashes of insight; two belts and you can't make a mistake.   Also, in Dutch country, if we start losing an argument, we just talk louder.  When we start writing in all capital letters, we are getting hot. ::)

 
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 10:48:26 PM by jwh1947 »

Mike R

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Re: The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2010, 10:37:03 PM »
I know what you mean about smells--and I used to have a very fine sense of smell, but a severe 'cold' or infection has left me without a sense of smell and it is driving me nuts!  I miss the ability to discern so many things, from "old wood" to old wines and whiskies--I just cannot enjoy them anymore :'(....the good news is now cheap Bourbon tastes just like the expensive stuff--so I am saving money ::)....

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2010, 11:48:11 PM »
I can just picture it now. Regional attributions based on smell.   A Southerner sniffs a rifle and says I smell hog jowl, it must be from South.  A PA boy says your crazy, that's not hog jowl you smell, it's scrapple.  A fist fight quickly ensues.

Offline JTR

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Re: The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2010, 12:31:40 AM »
Okay Wayne, thanks for the clarification.
I agree that giving values of a gun when judged by only pictures can be a sticky wicket at best, but sometimes guys ask, and I have to plead guilty to tossing out a number from time to time.

As for not agreeing with all you say,,,, heck, I don’t even agree with myself sometimes! So, just where do you get this rakija stuff?
And you’re sure the blindness is only temporary? ;D

John
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Online James Rogers

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Re: The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2010, 01:25:03 AM »
I can just picture it now. Regional attributions based on smell.   A Southerner sniffs a rifle and says I smell hog jowl, it must be from South.  A PA boy says your crazy, that's not hog jowl you smell, it's scrapple.  A fist fight quickly ensues.


Offline smshea

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Re: The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2010, 01:46:59 AM »
I can just picture it now. Regional attributions based on smell.   A Southerner sniffs a rifle and says I smell hog jowl, it must be from South.  A PA boy says your crazy, that's not hog jowl you smell, it's scrapple.  A fist fight quickly ensues.

Now thats Funny!


jwh1947

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Re: The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2010, 01:59:49 AM »
I guess I am getting old and crochety regarding rifles.  I have been fortunate enough to have handled the best, several times over.  To me, now, I am happy with fewer than a dozen Kentuckies.  For me to have them they must be 98% to 100% "Kosher," no serious taint; or, be of such historical significance that condition doesn't matter.  

My old friend Siro used to chide me...wouldn't you buy a 1/5 remaining Rembrandt over a 100% Grandma Moses?  I understand his point, but, at my age, I would be interested in neither. I am a dumb Dutchman; I would neither buy a 4/5 bogus Rembrandt or a 1/5 bogus Beyer.  I always look at the flaw.  (That's why I married my wife, she's absolutely perfect, scent like Rothschild Merlot.)  These Kentuckies now comprise 5% volume and 25% value of the collection, which is the problem with Kentucks, nowadays.  The good stuff is frequently out-of reach to the newcomer.  I remember the day a middle-aged doctor or lawyer with a few extra thousand bucks could walk into a gunshow and buy a good gun.  From what I've seen, those days are uncommon now. I do feel sorry for the latecomers who have to pay high prices for things that I see as dubious.  

That being said, I will be the first to admit that there is a market for junk.  When I get it I give it to a lifelong friend to sell at auction, thus disassociating myself from it.  Therein lies the good aspects of auctions, other than those that are exclusive to the auctioneer.

Perhaps I have finally risen to the level of "elitist," a position I hated in my youth.

I have told my wife that when I croak (she'll definitely outlive me) to give my kids first pick, then, what's left over,  donate all to NRA and AEU.   I don't even look at the investment aspect any more, just the fun.  One good specimen in the hand may take me hours to analyze; photos I glance at.  Many photos I dismiss these days as unremarkable, and I can dismiss what a few people with relatively little time in the hobby say about them, just as one can dismiss my remarks totally.   
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 02:45:37 AM by jwh1947 »

jwh1947

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Re: The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2010, 02:02:26 AM »
Scotty, we could harness up a few of those gals in downtown Lebanon, at that little joint by the RR tracks...put 'em on leashes, and I guarantee they can sniff out 'shrooms. 

Offline Ben I. Voss

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Re: The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2010, 02:36:33 AM »
I'm not really sure what you guys are talking about, but it's hilarious! Keep it up.

Offline smshea

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Re: The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2010, 06:07:26 AM »
Hate to say it, but the Rail Road House is Closed as is Don's Bar next door as well. There are however a few good Spanish Restaurants close by. All the Mushroom sniffin gals have gone North.

 I do however have friends that are close to The Serbian Priest in Lebanon and are always trying to get me to drink this Plum based Liquor that smells Like its likely not good for me.... but I might be willing to try it with the correct guidance and supervision!   ;D

jwh1947

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Re: The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2010, 01:00:44 AM »
That's it!  That's the stuff,  Drina river water with phosphorus in it and plums grown on old war graves.  Nothing like it.  Sorry about the RR House.  What a place. 

Offline lexington1

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Re: The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2010, 03:39:39 AM »

I guess I must be really out of touch. I am always totally thrilled to get my hands on anything associated with the old guns. A buttstock with a patchbox from JP Beck gun? Cool!  :)






I guess I am getting old and crochety regarding rifles.  I have been fortunate enough to have handled the best, several times over.  To me, now, I am happy with fewer than a dozen Kentuckies.  For me to have them they must be 98% to 100% "Kosher," no serious taint; or, be of such historical significance that condition doesn't matter.  

My old friend Siro used to chide me...wouldn't you buy a 1/5 remaining Rembrandt over a 100% Grandma Moses?  I understand his point, but, at my age, I would be interested in neither. I am a dumb Dutchman; I would neither buy a 4/5 bogus Rembrandt or a 1/5 bogus Beyer.  I always look at the flaw.  (That's why I married my wife, she's absolutely perfect, scent like Rothschild Merlot.)  These Kentuckies now comprise 5% volume and 25% value of the collection, which is the problem with Kentucks, nowadays.  The good stuff is frequently out-of reach to the newcomer.  I remember the day a middle-aged doctor or lawyer with a few extra thousand bucks could walk into a gunshow and buy a good gun.  From what I've seen, those days are uncommon now. I do feel sorry for the latecomers who have to pay high prices for things that I see as dubious.  

That being said, I will be the first to admit that there is a market for junk.  When I get it I give it to a lifelong friend to sell at auction, thus disassociating myself from it.  Therein lies the good aspects of auctions, other than those that are exclusive to the auctioneer.

Perhaps I have finally risen to the level of "elitist," a position I hated in my youth.

I have told my wife that when I croak (she'll definitely outlive me) to give my kids first pick, then, what's left over,  donate all to NRA and AEU.   I don't even look at the investment aspect any more, just the fun.  One good specimen in the hand may take me hours to analyze; photos I glance at.  Many photos I dismiss these days as unremarkable, and I can dismiss what a few people with relatively little time in the hobby say about them, just as one can dismiss my remarks totally.   

Offline smshea

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Re: The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2010, 06:54:28 AM »
About two years ago I was at an auction with a bunch of Kentucks being sold. A gentleman purchased a contemporary rifle that I would say was built in the last 20 years. It was one of two contemporay guns on the auction list and not the nicer of the two. The gun was a very crude copy of a N. Beyer........with all original Beyer Hardware including preening bird patchbox. I think he paid like $450.00.  Kinda made me want to cry.

 Anyway my point is that someone looking at that who had only seen a Beyer in black and white pics from one of the common books out side of an auction setting could easily have been taken advantage of. At 450.00 it was a steal on Beyer original parts.... but at 4500.00 its a different story. 

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: The use of olfactory senses in gun collecting
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2010, 05:58:36 PM »
I am locking this thread. It seems to have run it started off with some helpful info but seems to have run its course.
Dennis
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