Proof Marking

[dull blade]

Hello, I have a customer that wants to purchase a rifle. He lives in Germany & says that the barrel has to have proof marks on it to be able to bring it into Germany. I have proof tested barrels before but, what markings would I need to stamp on the breech to prove that I tested it? Thanks. 

[Jerry V Lape]

You can't proof test it to their standards.  If you wish to go to the trouble to proof this gun then you need to make arrangements to ship it to England, Germany or Belgium government proof houses. (There others in Europe but US doesn't have a proof law nor recognized Govt proof house.)  If you were to mark the gun with a counterfeit proof stamp that is a criminal act. 

[Daryl]

I wonder -  The East Indian make muskets have counterfeit poof marks, however they seem above this law.

[FlintFan]

I think if they were to put a "modern" proof mark on the gun, such as one that was currently used by the proof houses in England, Germany...etc, it might be a different story. 

To put an "antique" proof mark on a gun, is not a crime, at least not in the U.S.  I don't know if the Indian muskets sell the same marked guns to Europe, it would be interesting to know if they did. 

To get back to the main question, yes, you would have to send the gun to Europe to have it officially proof fired.  It is expensive to have done, and shipping a firearm back and forth to Europe is quite a hassle.  If it is a high end gun it might be worth it, if not, save yourself the headaches.   

[Captchee]

I wonder -  The East Indian make muskets have counterfeit poof marks, however they seem above this law.

 you mean original barrels from east India Co. ,,,, or modern barrels from India .
 Modern  barrels  which have gone through  the I.O.F . contain  6 marks . To include the name of the manufacture .
 Locks and receivers are also marked  by the I.O.F
 Those marks can only be placed by the I.O.F .
 They also do no batch testing . All firearms must be submitted to the I.O.F for proof .

 Recently I  did a little research on  the firearms laws of India  and was in contact with  an individual from the I.O.F.
 I must say I learned a lot of things I did not know

 India actually has very , VERY strict proofing laws  in that no firearm “ to include muzzleloaders “  can be made , sold  in country  or exported out of country without passing the governments proof houses .
 In fact it goes so far as  to require any person building a firearm   to be registered with the I.O.F. . they also must maintain complete records of  serial numbers of all parts and completed  pieces . Even if they only make one piece . That piece must be submitted to the I.O.F . proofed  and its  serial # as well as maker   logged .
Also NO private person  legally  may  export a  firearm   from India . It has to go through a government confirmed and monitored  entity

 Now  let me say this . The reason for my contacting the I.O.F was to find out more about a SXS that I had  which carried Indian proofing marks .
Mind you lots of  marks . Probably 4 inches worth on each barrel .
 Our discussion  also  turned to how  companies import  muzzleloaders made in India  into our market  which do not carry proofing marks .
 I was told that   the Firearms laws of India , do not cover non-firing curiosities.
 That  these piece have no proof of standards by the I.O.F as long as they are non firing  . As such  any company converting them to   be capable of firing , is doing so at their own  risk

  Here are a couple links  which contain  information on the  laws of India .

http://www.abhijeetsingh.com/arms/india/laws/act/

http://www.gunaccessory.com/laws/arms_rules.htm

 Now as to the subject of the post .
IMO  replicating ANY proof marks . No mater how old ., should not be  done . I dont care how PC it is


  As others have said . You would need to send the  barrel to one of the  European  proofing houses .

 If your serious about this  you might look into what it takes to sell a Curio, to the fella and let him make it fireable  .

 im not sugesting thats  the right thing to do . in fact myself , i would not .

[Captchee]

 another idea would be to have the customer send you a barrel from his country that has been proofed .

[Jerry V Lape]

If  your client wants to foot the bill, probably around a $1000 with shipping, fee to a gun dealer in England to handle the transaction you can certainly manage getting the rifle proofed.  Before you begin, go to the Birmingham proof house website and see what the requirements will be.  You need to also be aware that more firearms fail proof for things other than the barrel's integrity.  The proof house will look at all the work to determine it's worthiness.  If some issues arise that require correcting your handler in England will be taking care of that at additional expense.  Further, if you decide to bring the rifle back after a failed proofing, there might be issues about whether you will be allowed to export from England a rifle which failed proof.  (In other words you might lose your rifle.) 

Go to Doublegunshop.com and inquire there about who they recommend for a handler for this transaction.  Then you will be able to get a better cost estimate to accomplish this.  Some of the guys there do this sort of thing to put guns back in proof where it makes a lot of monetary sense for high end English shotguns. 

Possibly, your client in Gemany may be able to line up a handler there to run it through a German proof house - saving you a second transhipment fee.

[FL-Flintlock]

Best thing to do is contact the US Embassy in Germany and have them get the proper German authority in contact with you preferably via email, that's what we pay the embassy staff for.  I have done this when shipping stuff to other countries, correspond in writing via email or snail mail and keep copies of everything just in case.  It's normally not any big deal to get correct answers directly from the governing authority(ies) then you've CYA.  Same goes with the US side including Customs & DoR and make for dang sure you get everything in writing from them and all correspondence needs a full name and some type of employee/ID/agent number or it's not considered valid.  Don't hold me to it but a completed item may be required to have a certificate of origin and being that it's a gun, it may need a serial number.  Certain completed items may only ship via an import/export license holder and may be subject to both origination/destination countries taxes/duties.  Make sure you've got all your ducks in a row with paperwork to prove it.

[Captchee]

  another thing is that if your going to have the barrel proofed .
 do so before you build the gun .
 while the proof house should be able to determine if the barrel will withstand proof , which no reason really to think it wont .
 But of the off chance it did not .  Sure would be sad to be out all that work .

 i would also agree that the guys over o n the double gun could  provide you lots of info concerning this subject

[Jim Chambers]

I'm not sure where your German customer got his info, but we have sent numerous rifles and rifle kits (including barrels) to Germany.  Helmut Mohr comes to Friendship at least every other year, takes back to Germany with him a number of kits and barrels, and has never mentioned anything about needing them proofed.  I have another friend in Germany who comes to the CLA show just about every year, order custom rifles from many of the gunmakers there, and has never had a problem getting them through German customs without any proofing.  As far as I know Germany does not require the proofing of muzzleloading barrels.  Italy is a different story.  When we send rifle kits to Italy we install a drum and nipple in the barrel so that the customer can take the barrel to the proof house and have it tested before he can take official possession of it.  After it clears the proof house the drum can be replaced with a touch hole if it is to be a flintlock.

[FL-Flintlock]

The laws vary from country to country and sometimes within sub-regions of the same country so it is always best to get the correct info in writing from the authorities.  In my experience, the worst country to deal with thus far has been the United States because no one knows what's going on and finds it easier to pass you off to someone else rather than put any effort into doing their job - several days (at least 6-7) numerous phone calls eating up at least 10 hours ... all that to get a "fuzzy" verbal-only answer on one shipment.  In contrast relative to this same shipment, I called the US Embassy in the Czech Republic, got in contact with the proper authority who spoke better English than the US govt workers here in the US, she answered my questions and followed-up with an email citing all the clearly written laws, total time was less than 20 minutes.  Similar fast & easy experience with the Republic of Georgia too.  German authorities said nothing about proofing being required on barrels being sent there and while it may take a couple days to get an answer, but they're also easy to deal with.

[Daryl]

Cap - that's all interesting info about the Proof Laws of India, but those muskets and pistols come from India without vents drilled - therefore are non-firearms and therefore PROBABLY don't have to be proofed - no way of proofing them anyway - They bear the antique marks and proof marks.

[Captchee]

Cap - that's all interesting info about the Proof Laws of India, but those muskets and pistols come from India without vents drilled - therefore are non-firearms and therefore PROBABLY don't have to be proofed - no way of proofing them anyway - They bear the antique marks and proof marks.

correct . from what i was told if they must be drilled then they are  made as  Curiosities’ .
 lets also remember that a proof mark does not  mean a barrel is in proof . only that it was  considered  in proof at time of manufacture .

 In order for these to be in actual proof , they must carried valid proof marking  from India  or another proof house .
 I would think  once they were made  functional, they  could be proofed .
 However placing an old proof marking  on a modern barrel  IMO is still a misrepresentation of a onetime valid proof   .

[Daryl]

correct . from what i was told if they must be drilled then they are  made as  Curiosities’ .
 lets also remember that a proof mark does not  mean a barrel is in proof . only that it was  considered  in proof at time of manufacture .

 In order for these to be in actual proof , they must carried valid proof marking  from India  or another proof house .
 I would think  once they were made  functional, they  could be proofed .
 However placing an old proof marking  on a modern barrel  IMO is still a misrepresentation of a onetime valid proof   .

These guns are having vents drilled and used as any other muzzleloading gun would be used - on the range and in the field.  There are no proof requirements in Canada or the US- therefore they aren't proofed.
I was unaware that proof marks could be punched into a gun that was not proofed. If the maker can do that and not actually proof the gun as you indicated then any maker can, here or abroad.
The proof stamps are antique as well and that is perhaps the reason it is allowed - yet no proof is made.  These guns have .75 cal bores, threads larger than 7/8", few of which bear any weight, and have barrels made of ground down tubing starting at 1" diameter at the breech.  Just drill a vent and go shooting - what fun!

[Captchee]

 yep Daryl, i know they are . but the  thing  is , they are not , that i know of , being imported that way . the companies that import them are the ones doing the drilling.   thus the guns have not gone through proof .
 well any real proof other then  a given companies standards .
 Im not stating that these  India made pieces  have went through any proof at all .
 I don’t believe they have   ,past someone firing them with X load and saying ; yep its proofed .

What surprises me  the most , is the number of folks even in the gun communities who do not understand what a PROOF is and what it entails.
 Im actually very glade   and find it rather refreshing  to see folks here  make posts about sending barrels of for actual proof . I don’t think we see that enough .

 However . That all being said . There are  example that  have been subject to  the Proof laws of India .  These   are imported in a  functional state .
 In the case of those pieces , one can contact the I.O.F and  get  information on the standards of proof , date of proof , maker ………
 Here is the one I have  that I contacted the I.O.F  about .




 my point is , we should not confuse the two  types of imports .
 While IMO none or of any real quality  there should be a clear distinction between those imports from India that have gone through their firearms process and those which are imported as curiosities, Made  functional   by someone here in the US and sold under  that persons  reasoning  or understanding of proof…

IMO placing even old proof marks on a piece is  a misrepresentation. Just like signing someone else’s name   .  the marks are  a statement of a process  that the barrel was subject to .  In the case of the pieces your speaking of . A process that  the piece was never subject to .

  Now that all being said . If the case is  more to the fact that  the importer has  requested that those  curiosities be made  with barrels of the same quality  steels that  say  GM. Colerain or any other  better  barrel maker uses  .
Why should we look down upon them  because they come from India .
 I would hope that the  importer has taken the time to have  the pieces analyzed . Thus providing some standard of quality control .

 If the above is the case . Then we should not  IMO look  down  on  them anymore then  a   rifle made from a US company ,  which also comes to the builder , un drilled  and non  functional .
Especially if the builder or smith decided to stamp the barrel with  dated proofing marks

[Daryl]

I understand your meaning- however the guns are sold without vents - therefore unfired & unproofed.  The buyer drills the vent, virtually turning a non-gun into a firearm and therefore is totally responsible for any damage to himself or bystanders - however the gun does bear original proof marks. I am sure this must be legal - afterall, it wasn't long ago you could buy a Bess that had a welded-in breech plug - no threads, in firing condition.

Thankfully, these guns are used mostly for re-enactments, ie: no projectiles - maybe.

[Captchee]

 again these are curiosities. Hopefully built to a standard , defined by those who sell them  so as to insure that they are safe  .
 Myself I don’t think they should carry any proof markings at all .
 But again technically they are being imported as non firing  replicas and are being made  functional by companies here in the states 

 Now im no lawyer. But I would think that there is a precedence  for   making the stamping of proof markings illegal. Even old ones , if someone were to push the subject .

 After all we have laws that make it illegal to  produce  Faux Damascus finishes .
 Those laws stemmed form the very same issue  of companies miss representing  their products .
 Granted they are old laws .

[Daryl]

I agree - however I think those guns come over without vents as they can be mailed and shopped just about anywhere as-is. This helps with international law.  These same guns/non/guns are sold in the US and Canada for double the cost + of a Lyman or TC gun.

[FlintFan]

IMO placing even old proof marks on a piece is  a misrepresentation. Just like signing someone else’s name   .  the marks are  a statement of a process  that the barrel was subject to .  In the case of the pieces your speaking of . A process that  the piece was never subject to .

Well, how far do you want to take this?  How about the maker's names and broad arrows, reproduced on the British military lock castings sold by The Rifle Shoppe, E. J. Blackley, and Peter Dyson?  After all a broad arrow on a British firearm meant that it passed an official inspection process and was taken into government stores.  Or how about the "U.S." and eagle stamp placed on locks and barrels sold by these same companies and others.

We could even take this as far as building an exact copy of any firearm.  Wouldn't building an exact copy of a Jacob Dickert rifle be in the same ballpark of "misrepresentation" that we are talking about here?  After all, Dickert rifles are recognized by his personal style whether they are signed or not.  It is a very slippery slope that this argument could go down.

Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more about the placing of antique stamps on a replica of an antique firearm.  A 250 year old proof stamp has no legal, or functional purpose.  It is nothing more than decoration and should never be viewed as anything more than that.

[FlintFan]

 Now im no lawyer. But I would think that there is a precedence  for   making the stamping of proof markings illegal. Even old ones , if someone were to push the subject .

 After all we have laws that make it illegal to  produce  Faux Damascus finishes .
 Those laws stemmed form the very same issue  of companies miss representing  their products .
 Granted they are old laws .

Again, this is the slippery slope that I am talking about.  I'm afraid that "pushing this subject" might have consequences for our past time that you can't imagine.

[Captchee]

 one can build all the Dickert's one wants . 
 but IMO one should draw the line at putting his name on them .
 

[FlintFan]

one can build all the Dickert's one wants . 
 but IMO one should draw the line at putting his name on them .
 

Great, I'm glad you decided that was ok for us to do.  But what if someone else disagrees with you about building an exact copy of another persons gun/work.  After all most original guns are unsigned, and it is the style and artistic adornment of a particular gun which was the "signature"  of the maker. 

Let's all double think things before we suggest pushing for new laws regulating what we can and can not, put on our guns for decoration. Chances are your opinion is going to differ with the person next to you, and like most laws passed with good intentions, they come back to bite you in the you know where.   

[Mike Brooks]

I have never had anyone tell me they didn't want historically correct proof stamps on any of the English fowlers or Carolina guns I make. In fact I get guys sending me barrels to stamp all the time for their own projects.
 Since when is it illegal to fake Damascus? That's a new one on me.

[Mike Brooks]

I understand your meaning- however the guns are sold without vents - therefore unfired & unproofed.  The buyer drills the vent, virtually turning a non-gun into a firearm and therefore is totally responsible for any damage to himself or bystanders - however the gun does bear original proof marks. I am sure this must be legal - afterall, it wasn't long ago you could buy a Bess that had a welded-in breech plug - no threads, in firing condition.

Thankfully, these guns are used mostly for re-enactments, ie: no projectiles - maybe.

From what I have read on the net, the majority of these things are being fired with live rounds......

[Dphariss]

I understand your meaning- however the guns are sold without vents - therefore unfired & unproofed.  The buyer drills the vent, virtually turning a non-gun into a firearm and therefore is totally responsible for any damage to himself or bystanders - however the gun does bear original proof marks. I am sure this must be legal - afterall, it wasn't long ago you could buy a Bess that had a welded-in breech plug - no threads, in firing condition.

Thankfully, these guns are used mostly for re-enactments, ie: no projectiles - maybe.

From what I have read on the net, the majority of these things are being fired with live rounds......

They also have barrels made from seamless tubing if I have read some of the sites correctly. This equates to "pipe bomb" since it is impossible to proof material of this type. The act of proving can set up a failure.
But I always get in trouble going down this road so I guess I better clam up.

Dan