construction question

[The other DWS]

when one is fitting the barrel, sideplate, and lock, the aft throughbolt from the sideplate to the lug on the lock frequently passes though the lower rear extension of the breechplug.  Is it better to have this hole fitted tightly to the bolt or is some clearance preferred?  why? if so how much oversize would you bore that hole?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I give the lock nail lots of clearance in that hole.  Sometimes, I even cut away the back, or at least used to, so that I didn't have to remove the lock screw before taking the barrel out of the wood.  But recently, I just give the bolt lots of room in the lug.  I don't want that bolt being part of the recoil shoulder.

[smallpatch]

I agree with Taylor.  Give it some clearance.  I built a 10ga Fowler last year that split out the rear of the lock mortise because I had too tight a fit around that rear lock bolt.

[The other DWS]

that ads some validation to what I was thinking.   I like the idea of being able to remove a barrel with out having to disassemble the whole arm by notching the sub-tang lug rather than just drilling it out.   any particular reason NOT to do that?

[eagle24]

Seems to me that taking the lock screw out is not that big a deal.  I don't know that it would be worth the extra work to notch it rather than just drill a hole with some room.  I can't imagine a need to take the barrel out too often without having the lock removed anyway.  But......I'm a rookie too, so listen to the other folks.

[LURCHWV@BJS]

 ;DGlad you asked that question,  I' be just about to that point... if I  weren't stuck in the Twighligt Zone




               Rich

[Birddog6]

When I drill that hole I give it ALLOT of clearance. Probably a good 1/16 at the min. I don't want that barrel to Every hit the lock bolt, in any way shape or form.  As for notching it, were you to do so, It would have to be a 90 deg notch if it is a swamped barrel, as the barrel has to come out of the inlet by going UP, so you would have to take the whole bottom out of the lug.  I would not do that. 
How many times you gonna take the barrel out of the stock when the rifle is finished      ? once every 10 years or so ? if that ? I have some that have not been out of the stock in 30 years....... and probably will never be taken out. 

And if I  would   take the barrel out, the first thing I am going to do is take the  Lock off so I don't skin the barrel there at that area, and to also remove any pressure on the barrel. 

So in this instance, I think  notching it is not necessary at all, cause the bolt will be taken out to remove the lock before removing the barrel.           Your mileage may vary........
 

[northmn]

I like to take the barrel out once every year or two just to see how things are weathering.  Just found a bit of rust around a solder joint in one gun I did and repolished and oiled it.  I think this is especially important on fairly new builds.  After a few years things seem to stabilize.  About the only reason I would not want to cut out too much around that hole is if I wanted to remove the breech plug, something I do rarely.  Barrel is held in plenty tight without that being an additional anchor.

DP

[The other DWS]

thanks a lot guys,  really good input and the willingness to share here is incredible

Is this a great forum or what

[eagle24]

DWS,
I'm going to throw this out and maybe somebody with more experience will comment and help us both out as I am on my second build.  On my first rifle, I drilled the rear lock bolt with the barrel in place.  Mine went smack through the lug on the breech plug like you are talking about.  I did it on my drill press, and used a pin through a piece of wood in a hole spotted where I wanted the bolt to exit in the lock mortice.  When the bit hit the lug on the breech plug it drifted a little bit and did not exit where I wanted it to.  I was able to straighten it up, by reaming the hole and it doesn't show.  On the rifle I am building now, I plan to drill the stock without the barrel in place.  Put the barrel back in and run the drill back in to spot the location of the hole on the breech plug lug.  Then remove the barrel and drill the hole in the lug (and like others have said, I will drill it oversize so that the lock bolt does not touched under recoil.  I think (hope) this will work better.  I'm also thinking I will drill it from the lock side this time.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Greg and Keith...I agree that notching the barrel is a waste of time, isn't at all necessary, and weakens the lug of the tang.  I don't do it anymore, but mentioned it as a clearance option in answering the thread's question.
As far as taking the barrel out, we've talked about this before.  On all my guns, whether pinned or with slides, I take the barrel out every time I shoot it, to clean it thoroughly.  Without pumping cold water under the pressure of a tight fitting cleaning patch on a jagged rod, I am unable to see how ALL of the fouling can be removed from the breech area.  I would be obliged to learn how I can clean my rifle without using this flushing system, as it is somewhat time consuming, and with a pinned barrel, does loosen the pins in the wood.
I just had one of my rifles from 1980 in the shop for a new ramrod, and while it was here, I cleaned the bore.  When I got the patch stuck half way down, I realized too late that although the outside of the gun looked well maintained, the bore was in tough shape.  The barrel had never been off, and the pins were rusted in - the very devil to remove without damaging the surrounding wood.  The underside of the barrel, at the muzzle and breech was seriously corroded with scaled rust.  I was unable to get me jag to back out, so I pushed it with huge effort, and the use of a mallet down on the breech.  I unscrewed the stainless rod, removed the nipple from the drum, poured in as much 4Fg as I could, replaced the nipple, warned the household to plug their ears, and fired it out into the stump on which my anvil sits.  Now I cleaned the rifle in cold water with my flushing/pumping system, and I got a lot of red fouling - rust - but finally, I got it cleaned out, scrubbed with ScotchBrite pads, then 0000 Steel Wool, and oiled it up.  The owner cleaned his rifle while the barrrel was still in the rifle, but never got past the drum's hole, I guess, because that last 1/4" was really rusted up.  If that's what to expect when cleaning without removing the barrel, I don't want any part of it.
So, at the risk of stealing this great thread, pls. enlighten me.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Greg, as long as you have laid out that lock bolt square with the world, you can drill it half way from both sides.  That way you are ensured that it goes exactly where you want it.  You have made a good observation about drilling all at once...the slight taper of the lug can cause the drill bit to drop, and since you likely have laid out the spot on the bolster for the bolt as close to that back corner as possible, this is definitely a problem - the drill will miss the mark, and there won't be any steel to support the screw.  So, go ahead and drill the lock plate with your tap drill (#29 for an 8 x 32 tpi bolt), then drill between centres half from each side, without the barrel in the wood.  Carry on as you have described.

[eagle24]

Taylor,
I'm a southern rifle junkie.  A long skinny tang will give you pause about taking the barrel out too often.  Keith has built two or three with tangs 1/8" wide running over the comb and all the way back to the butt plate.  That will really give you pause.  One careless moment while the barrel is out could be a real nightmare.  Having said that, I agree with you.  I have to take them out to get them as clean as I demand.  If I will be shooting the rifle again in the next day or two, I might go the route of using the flushing "c-clamp" gadget.  Otherwise mine are coming out of the stock for cleaning.  I guess I will risk the tang inlet before I will risk corrosion in the bore, but I never take the barrel out without the lock being out of the rifle so I don't need the notch in my rifles.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I agree 100% regarding the long thin tanged rifles.  And I think the only way to satisfy my obsessive thing about leaving fouling behind, would be to use TOW's c-clamp device.  I have one and have never tried it...must do so.

On the example that I spoke of prior, not only had the barrel never been out in over thirty years, neither had the lock.  I spent some time cleaning that up too...it now has some interesting patina inside, though it some light pitting and discolouration more than anything.

[rdillon]

I agree 100% regarding the long thin tanged rifles.  And I think the only way to satisfy my obsessive thing about leaving fouling behind, would be to use TOW's c-clamp device.  I have one and have never tried it...must do so.

Make the long thin tangs in two pieces!!!!!!!!!  Cut and bevel both sides so they fit real nice and there you have it!  Then everything stays in the gun except the 2 inches or so of the tang that is attached to the bbl. 

Now, CLEAN AT WILL!!!!

[The other DWS]

re:  rusted pins.
 I'm thinking of sealing the wood the pins go through with CA glue---letting it dry before I put the barrel and pins back in of course---maybe also using it to seal some of the other internal areas.  Also wondering what viable options there might be to plain high carbon steel for the pins.

out of curiosity, when did the captured barrel keys come in time, wise.

[rdillon]

CA Glue??

Don't think all that is necessary.  I never do and no problems.  Not sure that move is a good idea.

[Roger Fisher]

Now then Taylor your still a young guy and have time to change your ways.  I'll describe how I do the cleaning thing for whatever it's worth.  In any case it has served me just fine for around 35 years.  .  But before I do I would add that an ill fitted drum or liner (meaning not trimmed off neatly in the bore and shaped like the bore inside is the culprit more than we think.  That is plain laziness in building to my mind.   (Or forgetfullness)

My thing goes thisaway.  B-4 leaving a shoot I seal the nipple on my sissy gun with the hammer down on a piece of leather or the flinter I simply run a sloppy oiled patch into the bore to the breech.  The cussin gun gets abt a teaspoon of oil poured into the bore and/or the sloppy oiled patch whichever turns my crank on that day.I would add that I use drums with the clean out screw set in the end, and run a bristle type pipe cleaner thru it several times to clean that thingee out. 

This holds the piece out of harm's way til the monday evening rolls around and I feel more human and can do a better job.   I run dry patches 1 or 2 in to the bore and wipe the oil out.  (In the meantime the fouling is snotty softand easy to remove.)
I then pour in cold water partly filling the bore.  If I feel fancy I use cold water with some simple green mixed in cleans my hands also.  I leave the rifle stand 10 minutes of some such while I monkey around in my shooting box or wail over the lousy targets I shot.  Once or so upend the rifle thumb sealing the muzzle and slosh it around a bit.  then dump into the sink (no not in Barbara's kitchen!) Then 6 or so dry patches and she comes clean. Dry then ballistol and she's good til next shoot.  If I have a tad more fouling on the breech face I go in with a rod with patch on a worm and wipe it off the breech face.   (BTW when I build I like to polish the plug face)

My loading jag has an X filed across it's face and when the spirits move me I go in during a shoot with bare jag against the breech and give the rod a slight twist filling the concave jag face with fouling this helps prevent excessive buildup of that crud.

My barrel has been out of the stock once or twice since 89 she does have a mt style 4 inch tang.  Much shots thru that ol girl...

Anyway - I'll bet you a yankee dollar (preObama) you'll like it!

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Roger thanks for posting your cleaning method.  I cannot see any flaws by my own standards, as I presume the sloshing water cleans the fouling out of the drum and from around the face of the breech.  And I presume too that you don't allow water between the barrel and the wood...one of my great fears.
I once was given a bottle of Ballistol, hearing that it was a great rust preventer.  So I cleaned my jaeger and wiped the bore and outside of the barrel with Ballistol, and hung the rifle up on the liner rope of the tipi.  In the morning the outside of the rust blued barrel was rusty, and so was the bore.  Not impressed.

If that's what happens when I try someone else's method, you can see why I am reluctant to change.

[The other DWS]

I too have heard horror stories over the years over on the single shot rifle side of things about Ballistol not doing the job,  also heard'em about Kroil I think it was.   one guy had a safe full of high end collectable single shots, engraved originals, fancy documented Popes, that kind of stuff.   he cleaned them all up good and oiled them with the product---don't remember which one it was he used----locked up the safe and house and went to florida or arizona or somewhere for the winter.  Came home a couple months later to a real serious and expensive restoration job---very light coat of fine rust over almost everything.

I don't trust either one.

Regarding the lug hole,  for better or worser shes drilled through--oversize by a heathy bit

[eagle24]

If that's what happens when I try someone else's method, you can see why I am reluctant to change.

I think this says it best.  We all have to find what we are comfortable with for our particular rifle.  I just finished cleaning mine after about 60 shots this afternoon.  Did it my way.  May not be the best or easiest way, but she's squeaky clean and I'm happy.  It was sunny and 68 down here in Alabama today.  Couldn't have been much better for shooting.