Author Topic: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix  (Read 21339 times)

Offline ptk1126

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Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« on: June 05, 2009, 02:04:25 AM »
As discussed under the topic Another Washington Beck, I had the opportunity to measure and photograph the
J P Beck rifle at the Frazier Museum in Louisville.

First of all the Dimensions. Please excuse the poor drawings.














If anyone would like to see closeups of other details, let me know.

All the best
Paul










Offline VP

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2009, 04:19:13 AM »
I for one would love to see additional photos. They are great especially when you have the dimensions to work with it. I for one say post all you have.

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2009, 05:32:13 AM »
Great photos Paul! Thank you for hanging them up on the wall where we can all see them.
This is a really good, and early, wood box Beck. I haven't had the opportunity to see it before, so am glad for the opportunity. It is easily a 1780s, or earlier, piece whether it has ties to GW or not. Thanks again.
Dick

Offline B Shipman

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2009, 07:33:42 AM »
I love these wood box Becks.  I've built a number and don't get tired of them. Very cool tang and carving.

Offline longcruise

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2009, 08:30:55 AM »
Is that trigger shape and construction typical?
Mike Lee

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2009, 03:35:26 PM »
Mike....yeah, that's kind of a typical Beck trigger.    You can easily make one from a "Bivins" type trigger.   Just remove the
curl from the rear of the trigger, then somewhat straighten or bend forward the lower portion of the trigger.   You also
have to remove some of the garbage from behind the trigger to make it look good.   On the other hand, you will also see
Beck's with that curl on the bottom of the trigger, depends which one you like, but you can't go wrong with either one...
Don

Mike R

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2009, 03:39:28 PM »
What do you think that little ring behind the trigger guard was used for?  Seems too small for a sling attachment ring--decoration? Or my gunmaking buddy always hangs a vent pick from a chain or thong off the rear of the trigger guard...?

Offline ptk1126

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2009, 04:30:35 PM »
Here are a few closeups of some of the details.

Deep (1 1/8") patch box cavity


Nose cap with three rivets. Both the front and middle barrel lugs are visible in the ramrod channel.
The front pipe has two pins while the middle and rear have one.


Trigger and plate


Closer view of cheek carving


Entry thimble and end of incised forearm line


Side panel


Rear sight


Would someone comment on the lock frizzen spring held in plate by a pin/screw ? I know I have seen one
elsewhere but can't remember where ?

All the best
Paul

Offline t.caster

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2009, 07:43:05 PM »
Thanks for the great pics. It is a CLASSIC wood pb Beck. I have seen this one in one of my books, but not close up from so many angles, and the unusual (for Beck) tang carving is a nice suprise. The lack of a bridle for the frizzen also (usually) indicates an early piece.
LOVE IT!!!!
Tom C.

J.D.

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2009, 07:57:15 PM »
Thanks for posting these great pix. The drawings are really pretty good, especially the color renditions.  Oh...never mind.  ;D

My son lived in Louisville for several years, but I could never seem to make it to the Frazier Museum, and now the only time I go through there is on the way to the CLA show.

I saw in the other "Washington Beck" thread that you took 103 photos of this spectacular piece.

I'm reminded of Oliver's question in the orphanage.

"Could we have some more please?" ;D

Thanks again for sharing photos of this great rifle.
God bless,
J.D.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 08:37:48 PM by J.D. »

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2009, 01:26:33 AM »
Now that is real gun photography! Thanks Paul. You did us all a great service by posting these photos of this very grand, early Beck rifle. Some things that I noted this time around are: the pan has no bridle. but does have an interesting fence. The carving is intaglio, and curiously is the most common design found on Nicholas Beyer rifles whether incised, or raised. Did Beyer just like it, or was it a tribute to his master? Some interesting possibilities on this.
Beck sometimes marked his barrels 'INRI' near the breech on the bottom flat. Do you know if this one possesses that inscription? Another one was 'J Deo Beck' which is far less common.
I enjoyed your photos very much, thanks again.
Dick

Offline VP

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2009, 04:50:21 AM »
Paul,
 Would it be possible to post some pictures of the buttplate, muzzle, tang end of the barrel and the full triggerguard? You done a good job shooting the photos.

Van Pitman

Offline ptk1126

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2009, 08:41:36 PM »
Thanks for the compliments on the pix but I don't think they are all that good. The Frazier had a photo area set up but one of the assistants was in the midst of photographing a collection of 400 swords and all I had was indirect fluorescent lighting.

Van - I am not sure what you are looking for but here are multiple pix of those areas


























All the best
Paul




















Offline JTR

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2009, 10:56:53 PM »
Great pictures of the gun, and what an interesting one to study!
Thanks for your time and efforts,
John
John Robbins

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2009, 12:15:07 AM »
Something to look at for all of you new builders.    Take a look at the picture that shows the top of the barrel from the tang out to the rear sight.......look at how thin the wood is on either side of the barrel.   Most builders leave too much
wood in these areas.   I too like Beck rifles, and these pictures are just great.   When you consider all of the guns he probably made, I have never seen two that had the same carving pattern on them, they all vary somewhat ......Don

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2009, 04:00:52 AM »
Great pics - thanks for posting them!  Look at that angled pic of the sideplate/tang/breech - 8th down from the top in the most recent batch - and look at the way the angle of the light is reflecting off the carving.  What I particularly want to point out is the background between the tang carving surrounding the side of the tang and the carving along the top of the lock panel.  He 'angled in' or dug in w/ the chisel along both carved lines and left the 'hump;' in other words, did not completely level the background between the two lines.  And what a waste of time it would have been if he had!  A lot of modern critical eyes or 'judges' would go bananas and rip someone a new a****le for doing that.  I suppose his box cavity is too deep as well - quick, somebody tell him!  ;D
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline JTR

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2009, 04:10:34 AM »
Good eye Eric. You an also see the same work in the 11th picture as well, where he dug in around the beaver tail, the wrist carving and the incised line on the bottom of the stock.
Yeah, guess he didn't do it right  ::)

John
John Robbins

Offline VP

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2009, 04:28:30 AM »
Paul,
 Thanks a lot for the extra pictures. You covered very nicely the areas I wanted to see. When your as inexperienced as I am you can't have enough information.

J.D.

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2009, 04:36:49 AM »
IMHO, Pretty darned good photography for only fluorescent lighting.

Thanks for posting the new photos of this great piece.

Has anyone noticed the transition from the barrel to the panel on top of the stock at the side of the tang? That concave dip in the area to the side of the tang, just behind the barrel. I don't think I have seen such a pronounced dip in that area, before.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2009, 05:00:16 AM »
That 'dip' or concavity seems to be a variable thing.  Sometimes you see it quite dramatically - as here - with a clear transition between the concavity and the 'flatter' portion between the tang and lock panels, sometimes, it is there to the same degree but blended-in to the flat area more smoothly, sometimes guys like Neihart and whoever stocked the lion/lamb rifle carried the concavity all the way back through what is generally the flat portion and sometimes guys like John Moll just whacked the wood off flat and never dished down w/ a concave portion.  You often will see variation even within arms by the same builder, both then and now.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline ptk1126

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2009, 05:29:14 AM »
In his video on building a Beck/Beyer style rifle, Homer Dangler discusses/illustrates cutting in the "dip".
Homer's videos are my favorites.

Dick - I don't know if there is an inscription on the bottom of the barrel. To my eye, the side plate looked odd. Although
the right style and fit, it didn't seem to be old brass, or at least match the other brass on the rifle. The curator looked
through their files to seem if any repairs had been made to the gun but none were noted. One letter in the file advised
that INRI was sometimes present on Beck rifles but did not say if it was on this gun. I did not have a chance to read the
file myself as it probably had some confidential correspondence.

Mike R - I think it was a post for a sling ring as I have seen similar on some European guns. The post sits in a circular
depression which makes me think it replaced a sling button. The pin for the middle ramrod pipe is missing but the hole
is somewhat wallowed out where I believe a sling swivel was attached.

A few questions for those of you who have seen or built Beck rifles:

What current make of lock might be closest to the one here ?

Are the rear sight, the rounded and exposed barrel lugs, and the trigger plate typical Beck features ?

All the best
Paul

KY Shinner

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2009, 09:31:07 PM »
I have been eye balling this gun for quite sometime, since I live in Louisville.  I was just getting up the nerve to go ask if they had any pictures of this rifle.  Thanks for the measurements and the pictures.....great job.

J.D.

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2009, 03:54:31 AM »
Paul,
Did you think to get a photo of the under side of the forestock, looking forward from the triggerguard or entry? If so, I sure would like to see the line of the forestock.

Thanks, again for sharing your photos of this great gun.

Offline ptk1126

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2009, 04:51:57 AM »
J.D  Here are some side views and a bottom view











All the best
Paul

J.D.

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Re: Frazier Museum J P Beck pix
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2009, 08:31:18 PM »
Thanks Paul, what a nice taper to the forestock, both in width and thickness. The tapers makes for a nice transition from the lock panels to the forestock, and down the the upper forearm.

I can't tell if it's just a shadow, but in the bottom view there appears to be a slight flair of the forestock,ending at the the entry.

Beautiful architecture.

Thanks again,
J.D.