AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: rich pierce on September 01, 2010, 05:38:42 PM
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From what I understand, original longrifle ramrod tips are made of rolled thin sheet steel, tapered, with a brazed seam, and some brazing down in the tip to provide enough extra material to be able to thread it.
I've made a couple but man, it is hard work. Maybe the steel stock I am using is too thick. Then I have the problem of the tip either being super tapered so I can thread it directly to 8-32, or too wide and it's hard to get brazing in there to fill it, then drill it, etc.
Here's an example that kind of worked. Ignore the spoon spring that holds the rammer down and in place.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/richpierce/my%20guns/spoonspring.jpg)
If you guys make your ramrod tips how do you do it? On an early rifle with a tapered ramrod and everything else sort of "period" I feel obliged to make the ramrod tip like originals.
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Rich,
The original rr/tip that is with an early flint rifle of mine is forge welded. You can see the weld seam. Of course this doesn't make your problem any easier! The metal appears to be about .065 inch thick at the tip (measuring where it is tapped).
The tip is secured to the rr with what appears to be a square head nail but it has to be a rivet since both sides of it has a square head.
Dennis
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Some I have seen look a lot like a patch puller in that the sheet is wrapped and then ends are left in a spiral with sharpened tips. I believe these were designed to hold tow. They also made a cap for them. More work.
DP
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How thick is the sheet metal that you would use? One might file down and solder/weld a nut in the tip???
It sure would be nice if someone would sell these like they do the startight modern ones........Maybe get some tin cones from Crazy Crow and adapt them??
I like the looks of forged tw worms, but I sure wish I had a correct RR tip to attach it to...................
Somebody must have an answeer to Rich's question.....I hope
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I am using sheet metal from big box "hardware and home supply" stores and am guessing it runs about .045. Maybe time for a visit to the junkyard for a 56 Chevy hood or trunk. On the latest one I am making, I brazed in a plug in the tip then drilled and tapped it. But after an hour and a half of fiddling it had some flaws and was not up to the standards of the rest of the build, so went into the junk bin. I think thinner sheet would be the ticket.
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I use .025 steel sheet, and braze the seam with a 8/32 nut in the end. Just don't use so much braze that the threads fill.
I mention that you must file/grind/turn a nut down to fit in the end of the tube.
I also scarf the joint, not butt join the tube.
Although I bang the metal around in the vise, I bet a nifty block and mandrel could be made to make the forming much easier. Tool idea?
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My tapered metal scratch-all/scribe is real close .... but only for 3/8".... I prefer 5/16"
Hmmm ................. http://www.crazycrow.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=5520-004-714&Store_Code=CCTP&search=Cones&offset=&filter_cat=&PowerSearch_Begin_Only=&sort=&range_low=&range_high= (http://www.crazycrow.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=5520-004-714&Store_Code=CCTP&search=Cones&offset=&filter_cat=&PowerSearch_Begin_Only=&sort=&range_low=&range_high=)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.crazycrow.com%2Fmm5%2Fgraphics%2Fgallery%2F5520-001-714_200x200.jpg&hash=a157338d2bde9cca59343ddfb85ec8672dca1ffc)
11/4" seem to be as long as they make
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It sure would be nice if someone would sell these like they do the startight modern ones........Maybe get some tin cones from Crazy Crow and adapt them??
Jim Webb makes and sells the tips, worms and the twisted ones with the pointed ends. I am driving out to visit with him in the morning. I will see what he gets for them. I know he has originals taps that he can use but I assume you would want either 8/32 or 10/32.
Dennis
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Great- could use a half dozen that are between 5/16" and 3/8" at the wide end and 8-32 threaded. Contact info?
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I might want some too.
Bruce
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One of the House DVDs illustrates Herschel making one of these, Don't remember which one. I used a tapered center punch for a mandrel on the one I made.
http://smartflix.com/store/category/75/Kits-Scratchbuilt
God bless
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It sure would be nice if someone would sell these like they do the startight modern ones........Maybe get some tin cones from Crazy Crow and adapt them??
Jim Webb makes and sells the tips, worms and the twisted ones with the pointed ends. I am driving out to visit with him in the morning. I will see what he gets for them. I know he has originals taps that he can use but I assume you would want either 8/32 or 10/32.
Dennis
If I am not mistaken Jim turns his tips out of solid stock.
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Great- could use a half dozen that are between 5/16" and 3/8" at the wide end and 8-32 threaded. Contact info?
Rich, Benedict,
Let me talk with Jim and see what he has, prices etc. He takes care of his 94 year old mother who is hard of hearing plus he is hard to catch near the phone. So phone calls are a problem. I will see how he prefers to take orders from people. Jim makes all kinds of high quality items he was set up at the CLA show. Also has several good books out. I know he still has copies of his sketch books on original shot pouches. Also he still has copies of his great book on "Drawings of Rifle Gun Triggers, Locks, Fittings Etc" Its a great book! Its 10 years of drawings/comments on original items that he has come across. Most of it is VA/WVA/NC rifles/pistols
He did another book on Gun Worms but that one may be out of print.
Dennis
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I've only made one so far..
Just sheet steel wrapped around a piece of 1/4" bolt blank to make the solid tip that I could thread. Just soldered together. A lot more trouble than it's worth, for what it is.
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The Herschel House video that has the tow worm section in it is the Building a Kentucky Rifle II from American Pioneer video
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These are not hammered out of sheet (really hard way to do it) but turned out of steel. I made a few for a customer just recently in both steel and brass. Some with decorative collar, some plain. Can be made with either 8-32 or 10-32 tip female thread. I will post these, and some other custom ram rod ends, to the following site in a few days, if anyone is interested in them.
www.luckybag.us
(https://preview.ibb.co/hxBYcH/Ram_Rod_Tip_1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cgq4jx)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fJeKHH/Ram_Rod_Tip_2.jpg) (http://ibb.co/ecMoBc)
Some of the other ends:
(https://preview.ibb.co/fw31Wc/Ram_Rod_Tip_4.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kCPVPx)
(https://preview.ibb.co/g6GzHH/Ram_Rod_Tip_6.jpg) (http://ibb.co/i20RxH)
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It sure would be nice if someone would sell these like they do the startight modern ones........Maybe get some tin cones from Crazy Crow and adapt them??
Jim Webb makes and sells the tips, worms and the twisted ones with the pointed ends. I am driving out to visit with him in the morning. I will see what he gets for them. I know he has originals taps that he can use but I assume you would want either 8/32 or 10/32.
Dennis
I am interested in buying several 5/16" tips and worms as well.
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I drove up to visit Jim Webb today, man what a treat. Its really a shame that a man with his knowledge and talent doesn't use computers and the internet! He is a walking history book.
As promised I have the prices for some of his items. I included the only two books that he still has available. I was hoping he still had his little book on worms/tips etc but they are gone. Hopefully he will revise and add to it sometime in the future.
Long tapered tips $15 each
Flat NC twisted cleaning jag $30 each. Sizes .200 inch and larger. Has 8/32 female threads
Fancy worm with balls & cross hole $35 each 36 caliber and larger. Small has 8/32 threads larger has 10/32 threads
His book "Drawings of Rifle gun Triggers, Locks, Fittings Etc" is 5.25 inchs wide and 8.50 inch tall with 205 pages and wonderful hand drawn figures. Excelent book. $30 + $3.00 shipping.
His book "Sketches of Hunting Pouches & Powder Horns & Accoutrement of Southern Appalachia". The book is 8.25" X 10.65" and has 206 pages. Again wonderful hand drawn figures with nicely printed text. $25 + $3.00 shipping.
To order send list and payment to:
Jim Webb
333 Webb Haven Drive
Hillsville, VA 24343
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I hope Jim will be set up at the big flea market in Hillsville this weekend! Just a reminder to all that live within driving distance...it's a once-a-year happening.
Greg
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If anyone is interested I too have been making them for sale for a while. I do make them just like the originals that I have seen and examined on original tips and they are brazed up from sheet metal and taper from 5/16 to 1/4 and are 3" long. I also thread them for 10/32 or 8/32. I do have some 10/32 is stock right now. I sell them for $15 each. A number of folks here have bought them and like'em. I will place info in the "For Sale" area soon or email me.
Darrin
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Thanks, well worth it for that price.
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Darrin! Can you post some photos?
I bought several of Jim Webb's worms and got his last Worm Book at the CLA show. He said he probably would not be making any more of the more difficult two piece worms.
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Yes, I will later today. I am sorry I didnt get to it yet. Busy right now. I have comuter issues so its abit of a slow process. I will be back home this afternoon.
Thanks for your patients.
Darrin
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Guys!
I used Darren's and they look period correct. Great Job and I recommend them to anybody. Gus
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Guys!
I used Darren's and they look period correct. Great Job and I recommend them to anybody. Gus
+1 Terrific tips!!
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Guys,
Original ramrod tips for wooden rammer Land Pattern muskets were made of sheet brass, rolled and soldered. The tapered body required a smile shaped or rainbow shaped piece rolled into a conical shape. The end was a simple disc. All were soldered together and attached to the wood ramrod without the use of any cross pin.
How they were attached to the wood ramrod was to split the ramrod end, insert a small wood wedge into the split, slip the brass tip over the rod end, then smack the tip thereby driving the wedge deeper into the split, and enlarging the wood end so the tip did not come off. Does this make sense?
Apparently this system did not work very well. In the archaelogical work at Fort Ligonier in Westerm Pa. (1758-1765) there were found a great many of these ramrod tips in undamaged condition. Apparently they came off too easily without a cross pin. Lots of British soldiers running about missing their ramrod tips!
Jim
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James Wilson,
That kind of wedge in the end of a tenon is called a "fox-wedge" in the cabinet maker trade. It is a common attachment method, as old as the hills. Indeed, I have used it for some of the furniture I have made. I would NOT use a fox-wedge for a ramrod tip for the very reason you mentioned - it would pull off too easy.
Best Regards,
John Cholin
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A good friend of mine turns his on lathe.Nice ones too.Wonder if there is a market for em.Is that cheatin?Dave ;)
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Dennis;
I too am in the market for a 3/8's 8-32 RR tip and worm. Be watching this thread for any information you post on Jim's prices and availability. I guess first dibs goes to Rich. ;)
Dave
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A good friend of mine turns his on lathe.Nice ones too.Wonder if there is a market for em.Is that cheatin?Dave ;)
only cheatin' for the hysterically correct.
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Look here
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=14341.0 (http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=14341.0)
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Look here
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=14341.0 (http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=14341.0)
Tim: getting this message with that link "403 Forbidden - Access to this resource on the server is denied!"
Got the same on an earlier link on another thread. Don't know if it is my end or ALR's.
Dave
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Works fine on my end.
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Yup, works fine for me too in NC.
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Any traditional tips made from brass sheets? With a steel tip, I'd be afraid of scratching the bore. Just me,mind you.
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Quote from: Dr. Tim-Boone on Today at 09:53:22 AM
Look here
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=14341.0
Tim: getting this message with that link "403 Forbidden - Access to this resource on the server is denied!"
Got the same on an earlier link on another thread. Don't know if it is my end or ALR's.
Dave
Dave,
Must be on your end but its strange that you can access the forum but not that one link. I could get to Tim's link fine from my PC.
Dennis
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A nail set makes an excellent mandrel for these. Look in your local hardware store (or home improvement center if you really have to). Not much difference between making a rod tip and a pipe. If you can make one, you can make the other.
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Guys,
I make my tips by rolling and brazing sheet steel. I do this, not because it is fully correct but because I am not good enough to forge weld the sheet. All the the original tips I have seen were either forge welded or overlapped and pinned. Most were forge welded. I guess that I should really make a mandrel and learn how to forge weld them. It would actually be easier once I learned to do it. Cutting, filing, rolling, and brazing those things is actually a lot of trouble. I have an exact template for cutting a 1/32" thick sheet steel blank for a 5/16" tip. That is all I use. All my ramrods taper from 3/8" to 5/16" in the thimbles. I just make the ramrod loading tip larger as required by scraping down the appropriate size split hickory blank. I use a pin punch alignment tool as my mandrel. Then I pack the rolled tip with borax and a piece or two of brass wire or rod. I lay it seam down in the forge and wait for the brass to melt. Then I turn off the gas, let it cool and file off all the brass from the outside.
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I was just doing some thinking about forge welding these things. Using sheet 1/32" - 1/16" thick, there is no way it will maintain welding heat long enough to get a mandrel into it and to the anvil. If I keep the mandrel in the tip, what would keep the tip from welding to the mandrel? Perhaps, the sheet being so thin, might melt on the edge and weld itself together in the forge such that all you are doing when you take the tip out is flatten the overlapped edge. It wouldn't be a great weld, but good enough for the purpose. What do you all think? I need some more experienced blacksmiths to weigh in on this. I will give it a shot this week and see what happens.
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Brazing is certainly historically correct. Most all I can remember seeing were brazed.
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I machine them out of round stock. Much, much easier than making them from sheet and I don't consider it any less PC than using locks made by investment casting.
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And yours are prettier too..... Dave I need a 5/16' in steel for an English gun. do you have any?