AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Flinter on November 01, 2010, 09:06:18 AM
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The first time I shot Jim’s rifle, chill bumps ran up and down my neck, back, and arms when the flint hit the steel. Wow!!! I guess some of you already know the feeling though. If I said the rifle shoots better than it looks then Jim may get the wrong idea, but you guys have to realize I’ve been shooting a T/C Renegade. The front sight seems to have a glow on the rear top tip of the blade. The rifle is just simply unbelievable, keen and well put together!
The first three rounds went into one hole or about two inches. I was shooting offhand at about 40 yards. The load was about 76 grains or 2f Goex thrown from a measure that Roger Fisher built for me. The cast ball was .535 with a Wonder Ticking 1000 plus Ox-York pre lubed .018 patches.
Now, don't think the rifle shoots low, because that is where I was aiming. For some reason I have always used the 6 o'clock hold.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg109.imageshack.us%2Fimg109%2F4004%2Ftargeth.jpg&hash=81ff7e53c1c6c18037536b703ddbcbaacc375c66)
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/4842/15352620.jpg (http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/4842/15352620.jpg)
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/89/77098610.jpg (http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/89/77098610.jpg)
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/4639/20aa.jpg (http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/4639/20aa.jpg)
http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/2232/22ahc.jpg (http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/2232/22ahc.jpg)
Check out my daughter's feet in the photo of the 3rd link below. She is standing on her heals.
Oh man! I cannot help it. I love that picture. Hee... Hee...
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7534/24ad.jpg (http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7534/24ad.jpg)
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6312/25asd.jpg (http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6312/25asd.jpg)
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/8488/26anl.jpg (http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/8488/26anl.jpg)
This is the Range Master. Although she said not to post the photo, I couldn't help it.
I have to admit: I love that woman.
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/4287/23awj.jpg (http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/4287/23awj.jpg)
Mike
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Wow: beautiful location, beautiful family, beautiful rifle! Very cool.
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Same as Ben.
My new 54 cal. Will shoot a one hole group also, that is with someone else shooting it. ;D......B Staley
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Fine shooting offhand I would say!
Tell that child to open her stance a bit, much steadier.
btw I imagine you hear about 'time to rake the leave' daily! ;D
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Great thread! Thanks for posting these pictures. You've got a lot to be grateful for Flinter...lovely family involved in your life...fabulous place, and last but not least, a wonderful rifle.
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Tks for posting this thread, Mike - all the picture links especially. Great settup you've got. Range officer - I like that.
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Nice looking rifle !
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Thanks Ben and B Stanley.
Roger, you have to realize that was the smaller of the two three shot targets I shot. The one I did not post was about six inches. Although I was using .010 Crisco soaked patches.
Actually, I was worried more about my flintlock falling on the gravel than her stance.
Oh, I like the leaves, because I can hear the Indians sneaking up on me. Ha!
Yea Taylor, I guess I am very fortunate to have a nice wife and two wonderful kids. The home place and rifle are nice additives.
My wife said thank you… thank you… Daryl.
Jim, I need teeth, and a new knee, but you can tell where my heart is. Thanks for the complement.
One thing I noticed shooting the rifle, I am going to have to get another ball starter. I have been using the one pictured since the 70s, but I feel it is time for a change.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv302%2Fjmwilson%2FBS.jpg&hash=b19ccec49922eefba6c667819653d22b51c4a25c)
This is the only problem I am having shooting the rifle.
Mike
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Excellent pictures. We will not tell your daughter that those red streaks in the 3rd picture are unburned powder suggesting the size of the load that Dad fixed her up with.
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Flinter - you got the world by the "Ba%%s" - great looking location - nothing better than walking out the door and being able to shoot your rifle without someone complaining. very nice rifle and family!!
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thanks heinz
I noticed that. Now I have a question. I am shooting about 76 grains or 2f Goex, so if I increase this to 85 grains, all I'm doing is blowing unburned or partial burned powder out the barrel, right?
I ordered a REAL ball starter this morning. That should take care of my problem, until I can make another one.
Yea P.W.Berkuta, when I built my house, the first thing I did was build my shop and the 200 yard shooting range.
Mike
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Excellent pictures. We will not tell your daughter that those red streaks in the 3rd picture are unburned powder suggesting the size of the load that Dad fixed her up with.
Note true - you are seening burning ie: red-hot fouling, not burning powder. The powder was all consumed inside the barrel, long before 1/2 way down the tube. The powder gasses are hot and so is 56% of the charge, which is fouling. Some of it stays in the bore, some of it gets thrown out the muzzle. The more powder you put in, the more fouling you produce. considering the .012" patch, some of the powder gasses got past the ball on it's way out, as well.
A .54 will burn all of a 150 gr.2F charge, inside the barrel. This is fact, not theory. The black powder charge is entirely consumed quite close to the breech, which is why breeches have to be thicker than anywhere forward of the breech area, as any tapered barrel will show.
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Daryl, do you think it would be safe to shoot 150 grains of 2f in Jim's rifle? I thought 120 grains would about the max without blowing things up.
One thing I noticed. The first three times I shot the rifle, I filled the pan with about 1/3 grains of 4f. There was a lag in lock time. The rifle was tilted to the lock side to get the priming away from the touch hole. The last time Laura shot the rifle, I filled the pan full, and it seemed to be an instant lock time. Laura even said, “Dad, I thought there was going to be a delay.” Lots to learn.
Mike
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. . . . .One thing I noticed. The first three times I shot the rifle, I filled the pan with about 1/3 grains of 4f. There was a lag in lock time. The rifle was tilted to the lock side to get the priming away from the touch hole. The last time Laura shot the rifle, I filled the pan full, and it seemed to be an instant lock time. Laura even said, “Dad, I thought there was going to be a delay.” Lots to learn.
Mike
Banking the prime away from the vent is a myth. Check out the following link:
http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/pan-vent-experiments.php (http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/pan-vent-experiments.php)
You want the prime as close to the vent as you can get it. It may be 15-25% faster.
Regards,
Pletch
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Larry, thanks for sharing the link with me. I enjoyed everything you said and watching your video. Now, I do not have to go through trial and error, and this will make my flintlock shooting fun.
Mike
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I wasn't suggesting 150gr. be shot in the rifle, just that a .54 will burn it. If the barrel is a good one, of good steel, 150gr.2F will not harm it - and develope even less pressure with a the .012" patch. I'd suspect that ball would rattle almost the full length of the barrel - with the patch incinerated right off the bat by the flame blowby.
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Larry, I see in your video where a pan brush was used, so these things are not just for show.
Daryl, that is interesting. A 150 grain charge would burn the patch up, so the load would be extremely inaccurate. I plan on using somewhere between 75 and 90 grains of 2f Goex, and that will be determined by what charge will give me the most accurate load. All of these loads will be fired from a shooting bench using sand bags.
More to come. ;D
Mike
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Mike- we shoot all day without brushing our pans - no need to do that for normal shooting. If it's raining, snowing or humid enough to fill the pan with water between shots, a pan brush isn't going to help there either. Use a piece of flannelette or tissue to dry it before priming successives shots.
Even 90gr. is going to burn the patch- probably 60. If the patches aren't reusable, they are being damaged by firing, bouncing pressures all over and accuracy is not as good as it most certainly could be.
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Now, this is getting interesting. I am glad you told me that. Jeff Bibb is building me a “Judges Choice” bag set similar to the in the link below.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_vb_Yo_ELC48/SneEKvQhOxI/AAAAAAAAP30/02QJh1w30uk/s1600-h/HPIM4134_ret.jpg (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_vb_Yo_ELC48/SneEKvQhOxI/AAAAAAAAP30/02QJh1w30uk/s1600-h/HPIM4134_ret.jpg)
I think I may get Jeff to put a snap type removable powder measure with a leather string on the bag strap ring. I will keep the pan brush and vent pick inside the bag.
Ok! What I need to do is examine my patch after I fire the rifle.
Thanks
Mike
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Oh...
I forgot to mention to you guys that Jim's flintlock is my birthday present.
Mike ;D
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Nice birthday present- WOW! Can't remember what I got, but then, I'm older than you are - HA! Bet if I got a beautiful rifle, I'd remember.
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Larry, I see in your video where a pan brush was used, so these things are not just for show.
. . . .snipped. . . . .
More to come. ;D
Mike
Mike,
Under normal situations I don't use a brush. We did in this experiment because we wanted to eliminate ALL fouling. We also used an air compressor and pipe cleaner. Every attempt to keep fouling out of the picture. Normal shooting doesn't require this type of effort.
In normal shooting, I wipe the frizzen and underside of the flint with my thumb between shots. Every 5 shots or so, I might use a pipe cleaner - depends on the humidity. I'm not a fanatic except in experimental situations.
Regards,
Pletch
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Larry, I see in your video where a pan brush was used, so these things are not just for show.
. . . .snipped. . . . .
More to come. ;D
Mike
Thumb on the frizzen and edge of the flint and if you mind blood (yourown) wipe away from the flint's edge not towards ::)
Mike,
Under normal situations I don't use a brush. We did in this experiment because we wanted to eliminate ALL fouling. We also used an air compressor and pipe cleaner. Every attempt to keep fouling out of the picture. Normal shooting doesn't require this type of effort.
In normal shooting, I wipe the frizzen and underside of the flint with my thumb between shots. Every 5 shots or so, I might use a pipe cleaner - depends on the humidity. I'm not a fanatic except in experimental situations.
Regards,
Pletch
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Daryl, this was supposed to be a two year project, so I feel extremely lucky in getting this within a few months of contacting Jim.
Larry, I cannot get a pipe cleaner into the touch hole. I have been using a cutting torch tip cleaner for the touch hole. Since this is actually a file, I have been very very careful using this.
Roger, I have been using a soft cloth soaked in paint surface cleaner to wipe the pan, flint, and frizzen. This fluid dries as soon as it is applied. I know the flint edge is razor sharp, so thanks for the warning. You never know how some people think, especially green horns like myself.
Mike
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Flinter, were I you, and had such a masterpiece of a rifle, I would not let anything chemical other than water get near the rifle. I wouldn't trust anything other that spit on my thumb, to wipe the frizzen. That's all you need.
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Indeed, Mike - follow Taylor's advice. When we're shooting the trail, only one out of a dozen guys even wipes his frizzen's face, let alone the pan or bottom of the frizzen. This is over a course of fire that can run only 45 shots, or up to almost 90. No wiping, anywhere, bore or frizzen.
The flint seems to be capable of wiping the frizzen clean each time it strikes & there is no more than one shot's fouling on it - barely anything. A thumb or dry patch will wipe that off. It takes a lot of shooting before the fouling under the pan eactually lifts it off the surface & even that makes no difference to the shooting. Our longest and most challenging shots are at or near the end of the trail. No one suffers accuracy problems on them - expecially Taylor - who's hit the chicken egg at 74 yards, winning the pot, twice now. The second time, it was around $120.00 - no wiping anytime, anywhere.
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Taylor you said, “I would not let anything chemical other than water get near the rifle." I am going to take your advice on this.
I hate to admit it, but I might as well be truthful. I clean all my firearms with fluid from a Zep parts cleaner. I will stop using this on Jim’s rifle. so..
Let me ask. Would it be OK to use Hoppes #9 bore cleaner while cleaning the inside of the barrel for storage?
Daryl, I think I may just be getting a little nervous. There is a wealth of information on this site, so thanks for the post.
Yea, don’t ya just hate someone that wins every shooting match, a chicken egg at 74 yards? WOW!
Good shooting Taylor.
Mike
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Mike, I've seen so many lovely rifles' finishes ruined by a run of alcohol, Fantastik, windshield cleaner, etc. it would break my heart to see Jim's loving care scared by some chemical that is not necessary. Clean your rifle with cold water - that's it - just cold water, and a tight fitting cotton flanell patch on a jag. Save your Hoppe's 9 Plus for patch lube and target shooting.
...and thanks for the compliments on the shooting. We shot at that egg since March 18th and just hit it a couple weeks ago. Then the next two shooters, Daryl being the first, hit what was left of the shell. I was lucky my name was drawn first.
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Thanks Taylor. I will take your advice on the cleaning. Yes, I have been wanting a custom early wood patch box flintlock for many years now. I try to take care of Jim's rifle. The butt has never been on the ground while loading. I use a car/truck floor matt for this.
If you don't mind me asking: what caliber and charge do you use in the rifle you hit the egg with.
Mike
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I can answer that for Taylor- if the Virginia, a plinking load of .495" ball, .020" denim patch and 85gr. of 2F. Rather I think it was the .50 he used - if not, then the .40 Kuntz, with .395" ball, .020" denim patch and 60gr. 3F. Maybe I can't answer that for him - HA! I know it wasn't his 20 bore smoothie - in that, he uses .605" ball, 85gr. 2F and .020" denim patch.
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A .020" patch. That says a lot. I am shooting a .535" ball with a .018" patch. I can tell a world of difference between this and a .010" patch.
Moderators please excuse my language, but I am having a heck of a time getting my ball/patch started. David Crisalli is working on a bullet board/ball starter, and I have a tee handle type ball starter ordered.
Jim's rifle is ever so slightly cones, so it is me or my problem.
Thanks Daryl, I may try a .020" patch later.
Mike
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A .020" patch. That says a lot. I am shooting a .535" ball with a .018" patch. I can tell a world of difference between this and a .010" patch.
Moderators please excuse my language, but I am having a heck of a time getting my ball/patch started. David Crisalli is working on a bullet board/ball starter, and I have a tee handle type ball starter ordered.
Jim's rifle is ever so slightly cones, so it is me or my problem.
Thanks Daryl, I may try a .020" patch later.
Mike
Remember to check your shot patches for tearing. You shouldn't find any that are burned through loading good and tight thataway... :)
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Daryl
After watching your two videos, I am now a firm believer in a good ball starter. I magine some of you guys saw the photo of the ball starter I have been using, surely at least one of ya fell out of your computer chair laughing. but… I’m learning. ???
Anyway, thanks for sending me the two videos. Below is a photo of one of the starters I made today. I plan on testing them out tomorrow.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv302%2Fjmwilson%2Fbill%2520large%2Fstarter.jpg&hash=09094b3ddcb86e87c7880588daaa49c55ea8a3a2)
Roger
I picked up a couple of patches, and both of them have been rained on. Both patches were fired using the powder measure you sent me. The patch on the left is .018” while the other one is a .010” patch. It looks like the thin patch had a rough day. I plan on shooting some .020” patches with different patch lube.
Now that I have a starter, the 20s should not be a problem.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv302%2Fjmwilson%2Fbill%2520large%2Fpatch.jpg&hash=f7fb5d073e40e0e8f97fad3f97cbf146a0ecb616)
Mike
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Daryl
After watching your two videos, I am now a firm believer in a good ball starter. I magine some of you guys saw the photo of the ball starter I have been using, surely at least one of ya fell out of your computer chair laughing. but… I’m learning. ???
Anyway, thanks for sending me the two videos. Below is a photo of one of the starters I made today. I plan on testing them out tomorrow.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv302%2Fjmwilson%2Fbill%2520large%2Fstarter.jpg&hash=09094b3ddcb86e87c7880588daaa49c55ea8a3a2)
Roger
I picked up a couple of patches, and both of them have been rained on. Both patches were fired using the powder measure you sent me. The patch on the left is .018” while the other one is a .010” patch. It looks like the thin patch had a rough day. I plan on shooting some .020” patches with different patch lube.
Now that I have a starter, the 20s should not be a problem.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv302%2Fjmwilson%2Fbill%2520large%2Fpatch.jpg&hash=f7fb5d073e40e0e8f97fad3f97cbf146a0ecb616)
Mike
Yup, tolja!
Your photos do surely tell the story of tooo thin a patch. ::)
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Roger
The .010" patch was the worst of the four I found. The .018" patch was the only one I could find.
I guess I need to rake some leaves.
Mike
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Thought that was the range warden's job? :D :D ;) ;) it is around here. ;D :o
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Taylor hit the egg with that Cherman Jaeger. 60 cal., 580 ball,.030 patch, 85 gr 2f,the bugga! he cheats, neatsfoot oil for lube. ;D ::)
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Naaa - it was that cheatin' Virginia - 2 weeks ago - maybe 3 now. For the first egg he hit, I think he used the Virginia .50 as well, or maybe that slim Kuntz .40, when it was much closer. Remember- 1st name drawn, bang- splat. Of course, Jody was the very first to hit an egg - again, closer than now - maybe 55yards. She used her Mom's .58 full stocked Hawken - all 11 pounds of it. No wonder she shoots it so well- too heavy to wonder off target - another cheatin' gun. HA!
BTW - he uses a .595" ball in the Jaeger - same quib load as the Virginia - 85gr.
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Daryl
I spent most of the day blowing and raking leaves, so I could find my patches. Yea… the Range Master mows and rakes leaves, but she could care less about the condition of my patches. I cannot understand why though, because she knows if I get mad, I will tear off cabinet doors and the likes.
I moved up my powder charge to 85 grains and got the group below at 50 yards. The two holes at the bottom of the plate was fired yesterday.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv302%2Fjmwilson%2Fbill%2520large%2Ftarget1.jpg&hash=5c5efb7b6e3dbbac72b84951c8e1c1372a7134cf)
The next target was shot using 92 grains. When I cleaned it I noticed there was a lot more powder residue than with the 85 grain load.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv302%2Fjmwilson%2Fbill%2520large%2Ftarget2.jpg&hash=d482f5fd4e9681a36fa8f694a018ef36df35c0ce)
This target was shot at 100 yards using the 92 grain load. This is by far better than my T/C will do.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv302%2Fjmwilson%2Fbill%2520large%2Ftarget3.jpg&hash=a24e5aa251326bb3c66c284b6754b2bbb995a686)
Mike
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It's coming together, Mike - way to go. The difference between 50 and 100 is striking. I suspect 100 will shoot better yet at 100, and as well or better at 50.
I notice the ticking patch is slightly cut on each land. This is usually caused by a slightly too-sharp muzzle crown. I'd use some emery between the crown and my thumb, rotating my hand to cut material smoothly, and rotating the barrel every 10 seconds or so to keep the crown even. what you are looking for, is smoothly rounded corners or edges where the machine cut crown shows an edge which is fairly sharp.
Here's a barrel stub I crowned to do the ITX ball and patch combo testing. i used Taylor's lathe which sped up the job, but didn't make it any different than I have done with my thumb. this crown is a bit smoother than actually needed, but with the hard balls, I wanted to be as easy on the patch as possible. My .40 barrel is crowned very similarly to this - looks just about identical.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FP4242100.jpg&hash=0f35fff27678706dbec920a1646c5e72249d8bbb)
Instead of sharp angles and corners, the metal edge is softened. This helps swage the ball and patch into the muzzle without tearing on the lands. At times, a slightly 'rough' bore will make the same damage, however I've not witnessed that with my barrels. Making a smooth crown usually eliminates cutting of all sorts.
Once the crown is re-done so there aren't any corners, a slightly thicker patch can be used which should eliminate the heavier charge making any noticable fouling in the bore in comparrison to a lesser charge.
Your rifle obviously prefers the heavier charge - as do most. As Forsyth said, more powder flattens trajectory and shoots more accurately as well. The improved accuracy happens as long as the ball and patch are up to the increased pressure. If accuracy drops off with increased powder- check the patches. You might find burns or cuts and burns. As the pressure increases, tighter combinations have to be used, unless, of course, those combinations are being used already.
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I notice the ticking patch is slightly cut on each land. This is usually caused by a slightly too-sharp muzzle crown. I'd use some emery between the crown and my thumb, rotating my hand to cut material smoothly, and rotating the barrel every 10 seconds or so to keep the crown even. what you are looking for, is smoothly rounded corners or edges where the machine cut crown shows an edge which is fairly sharp.
Here's a barrel stub I crowned to do the ITX ball and patch combo testing. i used Taylor's lathe which sped up the job, but didn't make it any different than I have done with my thumb. this crown is a bit smoother than actually needed, but with the hard balls, I wanted to be as easy on the patch as possible. My .40 barrel is crowned very similarly to this - looks just about identical.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FP4242100.jpg&hash=0f35fff27678706dbec920a1646c5e72249d8bbb)
Instead of sharp angles and corners, the metal edge is softened. This helps swage the ball and patch into the muzzle without tearing on the lands. At times, a slightly 'rough' bore will make the same damage, however I've not witnessed that with my barrels. Making a smooth crown usually eliminates cutting of all sorts.
Once the crown is re-done so there aren't any corners, a slightly thicker patch can be used which should eliminate the heavier charge making any noticable fouling in the bore in comparrison to a lesser charge.
Here is Daryl's pic. An ending bracket was left out.
Regards,
Pletch
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Larry
I cut the HTML code and pasted it into another web browser.
Thanks for clearing it up.
You guys don’t know me real good yet. I crushed my lower left tibia when a Dodge ¾ ton 4x4 Cummings diesel truck brake disk fell about 10 inches. The truck slipped off the jack. I will take your advice, but I do not want Jim saying, “Mike, you did WHAT!”
I miked the OX Yoke patches, and they were .014”. I found some cotton denim that measures .021.” I am also going to try some different patch lube. so… Daryl, you don’t think 100 grains of 2f is too much powder?
Mike
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TKs pletch- I'd have noticed today. Didn't go back in to re-check it yesterday. Not sure how it happened, but IT happens.
Nasty accident, Mike.
It takes powder to shoot the longer ranges. More powder makes the gun more accurate at the longer ranges and reduces the trajectory as well. 100gr.2F (I assume) is not a heavy charge in a .54.
For only deer, more power it isn't necessary when hunting in thick brush, but in more open areas where long shots might have to be made, the flatter the trajectory, the better.
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I feel a little better now. Had honey-do’s all day today. I am going to try some .021" denim in the morning and work up to 100 grains of 2f. I don’t know. The weave tightness or thread count probably has a lot to do with patch material. I’ll see.
Mike
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I changed from using the pre lubed patch to a .021 cotton denim patch dipped in Hoppes patch lube. I pulled the patch from the bottle and between my thumb and finger just to get the excess fluid off the patch. I could tell a 100% difference in loading and a little better target groups. The powder charge was 91/92 grains of 2f.
This photo is ten shots at 50 yards.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv302%2Fjmwilson%2Fbill%2520large%2F50yards.jpg&hash=beeefd86b6cedb6a2e3006a0d2daa9ac9efbeb6f)
This target is three shots at 100 yards. The two small holes are from my 7mm mag, using a Leopold scope.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv302%2Fjmwilson%2Fbill%2520large%2F100yards.jpg&hash=c01f232745f6f65f7e1d261e6acb718312dcd005)
ETA
I might as well be truthful, so you guys can correct me, no matter how embarrassing it may be.
I think I am packing my powder too tight. When the ball is seated, I bring the ram rod up about six or seven inches and forcefully run the rod against the ball three times. Enough so that I noticed my 7/16” range rod is dented by the barrel lands at the cone area. I guess I am terrified of the ball being above the powder, a space between the ball and powder, and blowing my barrel up.
I had to change my flint. Do I need to change the leather when I do this? Also, do you guys just judge the flint placement? That would be gap from the flint cutting edge to the frizzen with the hammer set at half cock?
Mike ;D
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Mike: Re: your last post. Truth be told, she should shoot tighter than a pie plate at 100 yds rest.... :o
Don't need to change the leather each time you change the flint; But after the leather gets 'hardened' and flattened so it shines then change. Of course more often can't hurt.
Set the leather wrapped flint in the jaws but not hard tightened. At half draw w/frizzen closed (pointed in safe direction and unloaded) Leave the hammer down slowly so it self lines up against the frizzen then back to half draw then tight down.
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On the picture of the starters I sent you- or maybe even posted here, you can see the shorter studs, but also one shows a hole. Note also, when I loaded the .45 longrifle and the double gun, I placed the starter over the rod (sitting on the ball) and gave it a thump with my palm. this doesn't damage the ball and puts the ball down on the powder the same each time.
Thowing the rod down onto the ball with speed, badly flattens the ball. As an accuracy oriented person of the last 1800's would say -"look, he meals the powder". We would say, he's pulvertizing the powder and changing it's burn rate. After loading normally (for me) I said to Taylor- look - I loaded normally. I then put the rod on the ball, then lifted it 12" and dropped the rod. It bounced back up about 6". By the sound made when the rod hit the ball, it was evident the ball was hard on the powder. Due to the method of loading, it's the same or virtually the same each time. That is important for consistancy. I've seen a number of guys throw the rod down, time after time until it bounces off the ball. I can't start to imagine what the ball looks like. It is important to have the ball down hard, but throwing the rod onto the ball isn't the best way to get that condition. It isn't a pile driver. We know from ctg. gun shooting with BP, that 'lightly' compressed usually gives the best accuracy. Compressed too much opens groups. Not compressed enough opens groups.
In either event, a loss of consistancy is the result of throwing the rod - which might be the flyers or some of the flyers you're seeing on the targets. 3 throws, was the common method of loading a musket by the US Military - it's how they were taught. It is not the best way to load an accuracy gun.
Pretty good 7 shots at 50 and 2 of the shots at 100 - for a 'newby' to flint. It's coming, Mike. You should feel pretty good about what you are accomplishing.
When chronographing loads, I found the system I use gave me the most consistant results and the highest average velocities. If the patched ball is only seated onto the powder with a very slight 'bump', the velocity averaged about 50fps lower, but jumped around a lot with a great deal of variation. Loaded like I did in the 2 video's, the shot to shot velocities were in the 15fps range for the .45 and only 8 to 10 for the short barreled double .58. Unfortunately, I lost that data and will have to re-test for my loading manual.
About the flint's position out of the jaws - lock to lock differences dictate different amounts of flint sticking out the jaws. When you get the right size (length) of flint, sitting at it's most rearward position against the jaw screw will be it's 'perfect' postion for a new flint. The leathers I use have a hole in them in the middle, so the flint can sit farther back. I find this necessary for all my locks. With an L&R, 1/2 cock position should see the lfint touching, but not lifting the frizzen. A chambers has a little more rearward position at 1/2 cock, so there is a gap between the edge adnthe frizzen.
What make of lock?
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Flinter,
I am not an expert, but I dont think you can pack black powder too tight by hand. Balck powder shoots better with some compression. But the compression has to be consistent too. If you saw how much BPCR shooter compress black powder in cases you would be surprised. I use a compression die to compress black powder in a 45-70 case. One thing I think you can do though is damage and deform the ball.
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Thanks Roger, I will try that. The rifle was shooting fine until I changed the flint. The hole to the right on the 100 yard target had four flash in the pan. Then, it fired on the fifth try after I changed another flint. I changed the original flint, I think, on the seventh shot at the 50 yard target.
Daryl, The starters in the photo was by PM, and I watched your two loading and shooting videos off and on for three days. I think I might cut my ram rod to 46” round off the rod to fit my ball starter and load like you do in the video. I am not throwing the rod onto the ball. I am holding the rod tight and forcefully ramming the rod against the seated ball. Yes, if you were there, you would say, "look, he meals the powder."
On the lock, Jim said. “…is a modified Jim Chambers early Ketland.”
The first photo is the one that came in Jim’s rifle, and the next one is the flint that is in the rifle now. That flint was ordered from Track of wolf, and it is a 3/4x7/8” number FLINT-ENG-6. Monday, I am going to order some 7/8 x 1" FLINT-ENG-7 flints.
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I hate to say this, but I missed a massive 8 pt. this morning. About daylight the 7 pt. I shot at last month came by my stand and acted spooked. I figured he either saw me move or caught my sent. I had one good shot in the rear, but I decided not to shoot him. We have a 3 pt. rule, and I did not get a good look at his horns. About 15 minutes later, an 8 pt. was following the other buck. He stopped about 20 steps from me with his nose on the ground. When he looked up, I pulled the trigger. He ran off when he saw the flash in the pan. Man!
When the flint burns the pan powder with the rifle not going off, there is another problem and not the flint. I have a vent pick coming, so could this be my problem.
I clean the flintlock different than my T/C. I notice that there are powder grains on the patch. Could this be getting into the touch hole?
I’m sure doing something wrong doulos.
If I don’t prove my manhood and bring home the meat, the Old Lady may find someone that can. ;D
Mike
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I thought I'd sent you a picture of some of my starters - that's what I was referring to, Mike. Too bad about that buck. If the pan flashes - more times than not, the main-charge powder is either damp from moisture or oil, or - with a fouled gun, there is fouling in the vent hole.
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Flinter,
Perhaps you are not cleaning the rifle well. The vent is internally coned and has a .070" hole. There should be no problem with this set-up. I shot at least 20 times and had no problems. I would suggest to carefully remove the barrel put it in a bucket of water and flush it out well. You should not be having these difficulties. If you can't get this resolved please contact me. With regards to loading, I would suggest dropping to a .530" ball if using patching in the range of .020". Performance should be fine wth this combination.
Jim
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I fell like I should not have to say this, but there is nothing wrong with Jim’s workmanship or design that is causing my problem. When someone looks at Jim’s flintlock I usually say, “The man that built this rifle Jim Kibler is among one of the top builders of custom flintlock rifles in the United States.
All the problems I am having with the rifle is my fault. I find it strange that the flint went out when I was having problems. After firing around fifty times over a several day period, I found the vent hole was partially plugged I thoroughly cleaned the touch hole out, so I now have a vent pick. Since then I have had no problem or flash in the pan.
All right!!! ;D
I am working on my shooting bench, so it may be a few days before I can do any accurate shooting or load testing.
Mike
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I refinished my shooting bench last week and started back load testing. Over the past few days I tried the .530 ball.
This target was shot 50 yards using 90/91 grains of 2f and the lubed .021 denim patch with the .530 ball.
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Having fun
Mike
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Flinter--
I can't stand to watch that video. If you don't put that cigarette down you are going to blow your entire family to kindom come. One spark and it is over. We don't want to hear about you or your family being maimed by such a stupid act.
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OW-ch! I know I'm new here, but I've been shooting for over 40 years. My motto has always been 'one shooting accident per customer, no exceptions, no do-overs!'
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Flinter,
Neat video clips. I enjoyed watching them.
Good luck,
Jim
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Flinter--
I can't stand to watch that video. If you don't put that cigarette down you are going to blow your entire family to kindom come. One spark and it is over. We don't want to hear about you or your family being maimed by such a stupid act.
I think ol Flinter gets the message. Actually he was simply watching the youngster shooting while Flinter was a bystander. He did not have a cig while he was handling and loading the rifle, at least best I could tell. Of course no smoking around the loading "area" is the accepted rule... :)
Whomever took the video from the vent side while the rifle was fired had a good chance of getting 'spritzed' out of that vent.....
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I don't see a problem in any of the videos however Mike moves so slowly when loading as to be almost painful to watch - but loaded just fine - perfect as far as I could see, especially great for someone new to the game. Good video, Mike. The second video of shooting is fine as well as-is the third, in my humble opinion.
The video of him taking a drag on a smoke while his son touched one off - I still see no problem. He is not loading while doing that (as I used to do) - I think he deserves a him a break in this. As far as a single spark creaking problems - catch a gander at the vent while the rifle is going off sparks are flying 12" high & 12' to the right as well as 15' out the muzzle. That's sparks.
I've been in a similar situation, overreaction, if you will concerning myself - smoking a cigar or pipe, walking along minding my own business and had someone approach me concerning the horn at my side - saying/screaming/crying that it's going to blow up.
I see much less problem with that, than a horn hanging along the dew cloth in a lodge, with a fire going in the middle - or horns anywhere in a lodge with a fire spitting away - yet that happens and is overlooked by the same person complaining of the smoker.
I'm a new ex-smoker myself, btw - but as yet I tend to cut the smoker a break. No, I can't stand the smell of cigarettes either- especially American cigaretts. I see nothing wrong with the video. Mike isn't even wearing his bag and horn.
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Roger, Daryl--
You guys must have missed the first video of flinter smoking while loading. That is what I was referring to. Some others saw the same one. It has now been removed.
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I'd like to comment on the target Mike. It's a good thing to see more than 3 shots as that teaches us that light and barrel heat changes the way we see targets. 10 shots is very difficult to manage, which is the rule in chunk- along with a lot of movement up and down as well as walking for target posting. 10 shtos is a difficult game to master, for sure.
It sure doesn't help the groups, does it. The individual groups of 4 and 5 are very good - Whether a sight change, or light change, doesn't matter. Keep up the good work. Looks like excellent practise - and excellent practise makes for excellent shootng.
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Roger, Daryl--
You guys must have missed the first video of flinter smoking while loading. That is what I was referring to. Some others saw the same one. It has now been removed.
HA! - yeah - Ok - missed that - generally frowned upon. Shame, Mike, Shame!!!!!! {psst - I used to do that too - not good for one's longevity}
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That's the one that made me quiver too. S'o-k. I've served as a bad example more than once. ::)
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Oh, BTW. Sweet looking rifle, and looks like she shoots nice too! Great early Christmas gift.
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I am the one who removed the first video. I was late for an appointment and had to run but I didn't want that video to stay on ALR. I sent the owner of the post an email telling him why I removed it. I just didn't have time to let you all know I removed it. I had a friend of mine lose a couple of fingers from a spark that got into a priming tool (closed one!) and I sure didn't want anyone looking at that video via ALR.
Dennis
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I am the one who removed the first video. I was late for an appointment and had to run but I didn't want that video to stay on ALR. I sent the owner of the post an email telling him why I removed it. I just didn't have time to let you all know I removed it. I had a friend of mine lose a couple of fingers from a spark that got into a priming tool (closed one!) and I sure didn't want anyone looking at that video via ALR.
Dennis
Good move young fella, I had viewed that loading video twice and no cig shown so I only got to see the 2nd one seems like. ::)
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I removed all the video links, because any link carries a viewer to the folder that contains all the videos that was shot that day. I sincerely apologize to anyone that got a bad feeling or was offender by the links.
Mike
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Good move, Mike - hadn't thought of that. Can you move the 'safe' video's to a different folder and re-post?
Your slow, methodical loading method (.530" ball) is easy viewing in it's simplicity and shows the ease of seating a fairly thick patch. Some beginnners have difficulty loading such a thick patch and your video shows just how easy it is accomplished.
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Daryl
I opened a YouTube account, and sent my son an e-mail requesting he move some of the videos to my account. This may take a few days.
Well, I nailed a deer yesterday with Jim's flintlock. Since all the bucks in my area have been taken, I decided a doe would be OK. It turned out the deer was a button buck with horns about ¼” above the hair. I plan on cutting, tenderizing, and bagging the meat today.
Charles, I used the knife I ordered from you a couple of months ago to dress the deer. When I finished, the knife was still razor sharp.
Mike
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Congratulations on the deer Mike! Good job.
Jim
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Congratualtions, Mike- good-on-ya.
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Congratulations on the deer. I am glad the knife held up to the test . I like to get field reports like that. Take care of that fine rifle you have it sure is a beauty.
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Daryl
I opened a YouTube account, and sent my son an e-mail requesting he move some of the videos to my account. This may take a few days.
Well, I nailed a deer yesterday with Jim's flintlock. Since all the bucks in my area have been taken, I decided a doe would be OK. It turned out the deer was a button buck with horns about ¼” above the hair. I plan on cutting, tenderizing, and bagging the meat today.
Charles, I used the knife I ordered from you a couple of months ago to dress the deer. When I finished, the knife was still razor sharp.
Mike
Congrats!! . Allways great to break in a new gun
what kind of load were you using? How far was the shot?
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Thanks for the comments guys.
I was using two loads doulos. One load was with a .535 and the other was a .530 ball.
Both loads were fired with 91/92 grains of 2f Goex, a .021 denim patch, and Hoppes patch lube.
Everything was shot at 50 yards on sand bags from a shooting bench.
I plan on making two more videos showing the difference of how easier the .530 is to load. Most of you guys probably already know this, but it amazes me that the easier loading .530 ball shoots just as accurate compared to the .535 load. Although Jim mentioned I try the .530 ball, I was planning to since this is about finding the best load for the rifle.
Mike
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Which one did you shoot the deer with?
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I used the .530 ball as mentioned above doulos.
I am going to do more load testing. The next time I go to Little Rock, I am going to look for a tighter woven cotton fabric. I do not know if this will make any difference, since the recover patches look fine.
Also, I am going to try different patch lubes.
Mike
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With ff I would jump the powder charge to 100-110. I would also try FFF at 90-100 grains.
Dan
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I would too - powder charge & type testing - I'd also test the current patches by re-using some. If you can't re-use them - perhaps pick up some 'better' material, Mike.
When looking at patches, people sometimes miss the scorching that happends prior to burnouts. The brownish burning of the cloth on each groove. When patches do that in colder weather, they usually fail in warm weather or with a warm barrel - ie: insufficiently thick. That you can shoot repeatedly, without having to wipe, shows sufficient lube.
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Dphariss, I am going to start some load testing tomorrow. Since I have both 3f and 2f, I plan on using both.
Daryl, I ordered some precut .020 patches that mic at .019. I cannot reuse the fired patches, because they are frayed out quite a bit around the edges. Other than that, I could reuse the patches. I do not think the patches have a tight enough weave. This will be corrected when I go to a good fabric store in Little Rock.
I have everything to make the WW fluid lube. I am going to PM you for a little better instruction on how to male up the solution.
The patches look a little brown around the ball area, but the color does not extend into the patch grove area.
I am going to take your advice on using a three shot group instead of the ten shots.
The results will be posted later this week.
Mike
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The brown I was referring to, is easily interpreted (with an eye-hoop) as scorching in the groove-area on the patch, not just the base of the ball.
Most patches fray a bit on the outside, too much, ie: back to the ball's bearing area could be too loose a weave, I'd guess as well.
To much scorching on the ball's base could be seen as perhaps too little or insufficient quality lube in the lube.
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This is the first day I could get out and shoot. All targets were shot using .021 denim soaked in Hoppes patch lube.
The powder used was 3f Goex. The distance was 50 yards shot off sand bags.
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Daryl, this is what you are talking about. This target was shot using a pre cut .019 lubed with Hoppes.
The patch in the photo has scorch marks in the grove area.
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One thing is for sure. I am going to use the .530 Ball. I can easily load this with a 3/8 inch ramrod I made for the rifle.
Now, I do not have to carry the 7/16 rod.
Mike
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Yes- Mike- there appears to be considerbly blowby on the light coloured patch.
It is difficult to se it that is happening on the striped ticking patch.
Although the patches are maintaining their integrity at this point - in the summer time with warmer temps, it's quite likely they would fail. If the temps are warm now, then perhaps they'd be OK, but tighter should give better accurcy overall.
A 3 shot group with each powder charge is not enough to judge a particular combination's capability. Several or many 3 shot groups would, or a couple 4 shot groups. Overlay your targets and re-mark onto a single plain paper to get a better idea of the actual grouping - look for multiple concentrations of holes - fliers happens to everyone, now and then. Firing quickly is a good idea as long as you don't let barrel heat wreck groups.
That 95gr. of 3f with the ticking patch appears to have potential for a hunting load. Needs ore testing- however if judging by the single 85gr.3F target, one would discount it. You cannot go by a single target. However, we've always received better accuracy in .50 through 69 calibre with 2F over 3F. We do NOT find 2F fouls more - and we seem to use MUCH heavier charges than most poeple - I wonder why? Well, not really. :-*
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Well, it’s raining today, so I guess I’ll go through the tedious task of cutting patches.
It is a shame that I cannot use the 400 precut patches I bought, but I guess that is the way life goes. The .021 patches do not show any blow by, even with the 95 grain load of 3f.
To be truthful, I shot another round of 85 grain .530 ball, and the target group was not good as the one pictured.
I cannot see any difference in the fowling between the 3f and 2f, although the 3f seems to have a crack or sharper sound when firing, but that could just be my imagination.
I will defiantly do some more testing with the 95 grain 3f load. I need to find a load that I will use in this year’s 200 yard round ball shoot.
I have a few questions.
I made a tapered ramrod to fit my rifle. Instead of flipping the rod over, I pull the rod out and it goes straight into the barrel. There may be a little fowling on the rod tip, so will this hurt anything with the burnt powder going down into the rod channel?
When I buy some .021/.022 cotton patch material, will the cloth shrink in thickness when I wash it?
When I am shooting like this, I notice the flash pan is damp looking. Could this be caused by the damp patches I am using?
ETA
I made up some WW fluid/neatsfoot patch lube. I plan on trying this and one other patch lube.
Mike
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Hello Flinter,
Try some 2f goex. I'd try 90gr and go up in 5 gr increments. Might tighten that group up. IMO
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I make all my rods tapered with a brass fitting on the small (inside) end. I use the small end to push the ball down, so I don't have to flip the rod to load, and then again to return it to the stock. I am unconcerned about any fouling that goes into the rod hole.
The new cloth will have sizing in it, and will be stiff and feel thick. Washing the material in cold water, and hang to dry, before cutting the patches removes the sizing, and any shrinkage is minimal. If you use hot water and a dryer, yes, you'll shrink the material, and likely increase its thickness. So, cold water, and hang to dry.
The fouling from black powder sucks moisture out of the air - that's what you're seeing in the pan. None of the liquid from your patch exits the vent.
90-95 grains of FFFg is a pretty stiff load for punching paper, though it will be close to your most accurate load. My .50 cal Virginy likes 85 gr. FFg GOEX, so you are in the right neighbourhood. But try FFg rather than FFFg.
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I posted this photo a couple pages back in this thread. This was my best target shot at 50 yards using 91 grains of 2f and Hoppes lubed .021 denim patches with the .530 ball.
Daryl suggested I shoot a three shot group, and then move to another load. This is a lot easier. Leatherbelly, I am going to up the charge (91 on the 2f 5 gr. at a time) like you suggested and see what happens.
Taylor, thanks for your comment on the rod. I would use the rod that Jim built, but I don’t want to break it. I am rough on them.
I went to Little Rock yesterday shopping with the Old Lady. We went to Hancock Fabric. I bought two yards of .022 denim, two yards of .023 100% cotton, and about a yard and a half of .021 pillow ticking.
I washed the ticking a couple times in cold water and the cloth was softer. I could not detect a change in thickness.
When you guys buy patch material by the yard, do you always wash it?
Also, I take a round piece of cardboard, mark the cloth with a black Sharpie, and then cut out the patch. Is this the way you guys cut your patches?
Mike
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Hi Mike,
I usually use a 1 inch to 1 1/4" tapered bearing RACE,depending on caliber,and a large single ball bearing. I lay the cloth over the race, place the large ball bearing on the cloth and the race and lightly hit the ball bearing with my hammer.Makes a perfect round patch.
Daryls gave me a piece of what appears to be titanium pipe, with a inside diameter of just less then an inch.Works great for my fifty. Same procedure. Pipe is an inch and a half long so I can bang off thirty patches until the pipe fills up with patches,take out and knock off another load in a matter of a few minutes. I put this appurattus (sp) on my little anvil for a nice hard base and bang away!
Go to your local brake and alignment shop for races, heavy machine shop for a big ball bearing.
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Daryl and I make our pre-cut patches using a bearing race, and a ball bearing. I have a 12" piece of railroad rail welded upside down to a piece of heavy steel, and sitting on a stump in my shop, that I use for an anvil. I place the bearing race on this, cover the race with the patch material, and give it a whack with a hammer. It cuts a perfectly round disc of cloth a little larger that the hole in the race, because of the curve of the ball bearing. This gives very frugal use of the material, since one can cut patches right next to each other, and in no time at all, you can cut hundreds of patches.
These races are from all different types of bearings, and are as follows: 1.495", 1.180", .980", .865", .843", and the balls are 1 5/8" and 1 3/8". I have some smaller races too, but this gives you the idea.
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Taylor beat me to the punch. Probably explaned better too,lol! ;D
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You beat me to it Roy!
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We're having trouble agreeing on who was first.
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That sounds like a great way to cut patches, will have to give it a try, but Taylor, do you lube the patches befor or after you cut them? Gary
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;D, ;D, ;D....
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Boy, you guys are meticulous. I just cut my patches square. And use the lines on the pillow ticking for a reference. I usually leave them in strips when I lube them and cut them at the range. Ive never seen a difference in accuracy between my hand cut and store bought patches. And some of mine are a little too big. I know Flinter was only asking about cutting method but I have to add I dont think it matters that much as far as accuracy is concerned. I just use sciccors because its easier. Patch thickness and lube seems to matter more for accuracy to me.
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Range time is important to me, so I "make ready" at home, prelubed patches ad nauseum, so when I hit the trail, no fitsky ditsky! We usually shoot all day long. That means 60-80 shots out of the pouch. No need to carry scissors or a bottle of patch lube. Our range is a woodswalk. No shooting boxes or pick-up trucks! :-[
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Mike- we put the patches int he tin and then pour in the lube, let them soak it up until thoroughly wet, then gently squeeze out the excess letting that run back into the bottle. If you pulled out 3 patches together and sweezed them hard between your fingers, you'd get a drop of excess lube. That's about right.
We do not believe that licking a patch is a spit patch. If the patch splashes the guy beside you when the ball is smacked down flush with the muzzle, then that's spit or wet patched.
I-too use the bearing race and ball. I will also use an arch punch. Another method is to use a hole saw of the appropriate size, grind the teeth off it to an edge, and use it in the drill press.
To make this, grind the 'set' off the outside of the 'drill'. Cut a hole through 2 sheets of 1" plywood. Then grind off the teeth and sharpen the saw.
The chuck the 'drill' in the press, and lay multi-thicknesse of cloth between the two sheets of ply with the holds lined up over a sheet of UHMW or HDPE. Run the drill through the holes andyou ahve whatedver number of patches- to what number of thicknesses of material you used - 5, 10, or 200 - whatever.
Cutting patches with a bearing race and ball is faster than cutting squares with sissors. Beware- get the balls from a heavy equipment shop only. Trying to buy a 1 1/2" or 1 5/8" bearing will probably run $50.00 to $75.00 each - I was given a price of $75.00 for 1 5/8".
Arch punches are cheap, ie: about $25.00 or less. I went to the plastics fabricating shop and bought a chunk of UHMW (HDPE) 2" X 10" X 6" for $10.00. I even picked one up for Taylor at that price. These make cutting with an Arch punch easy, without damaging the edge. It is much better than wood or lead.
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Are large bearing balls hard to find? Mine are 1.975". Had a bucket full at work. Bigger balls are better.
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The measurements I gave for the races was the inside diameter...the patch ends up being a little larger than that. Any garage or machine shop will have a pile of junked races. The balls come from huge bearings at a motor winding shop, (motors for the logging industry) or they can be purchased new for about $10.
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Guess I went to the wrong bearing shop - I was quoted $75.00 per bearing.
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After I read the first couple of post after my scissor comment, I immediately drove to town and bought a bearing race set. I am going to talk to a machinist tomorrow about a ball bearing. He works on heavy equipment, so he should have a few of them.
I have made gaskets for different things out of gasket material by using a ball peen hammer penning the steel around the inside and outside of what I wanted to seal. I never thought of a bearing race and a large ball bearing. You guys just made my black powder shooting more fun.
Daryl, I have a bunch of circular hole saws and a drill press. I may try this later. I am curious about the arch punch. I have a set of leather punches, and I cut leather by placing it against the grain end of a board. What do you use as a backing when cutting patches with an arch punch? If UHMW is a polyurethane board, then I have a 5’x1’x1/2” thick piece.
Mike
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Mike, 1/2" is too thin in myopinion - I tried it - as you'll end up breaking it. That is why the 2" to 4" thick pieces are better. End grain on a very cense piece of timber will work - for a while. The poly is much better. I've seen guys use a blockof lead - OK - but not if you are spit patching.
Here, the stuff is called UHMW - Ultra High Molecular Weight
In the States, I've seen it called HDPE - High Density Poly-Ethylene - or maybe it's Poly-urethane - does nt matter,w aht matters is this thick and selt-healing to a degree- like the cutting board material- also used in butcher shops - white only.
The coloured material is brand new, but made from cuttings - re-potted. Here, the die must be put in non-single process material, hense the colours. Only white is allowed for butcher shops.
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May be swimmin up stream again; but I simply cut it in strips then at the muzzle. I tried the arch punch years and years ago; simply too much putzing around for me. ::)
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May be swimmin up stream again; but I simply cut it in strips then at the muzzle. I tried the arch punch years and years ago; simply too much putzing around for me. ::)
I pretty much do the same. I just carry the prelubed strips in plastic ziploc bags but instead of cutting at the muzzle i cut them with sciccors at the shooting table. takes about 10 seconds to cut 10 patches. Im gonna try cutting at the muzzle.
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At shoots with bench, I always cut at the muzzle from soaked strip, but I pre-cut squares for w-walks most of time. Couldn't tell any difference b/t round and square pre-cuts as long as they were consistent when I tested, but that was some time ago; the squares are definitely easier to crank out. I've got enough pre-cut for my pistol for a few years, but they don't go as fast as my rifle's patch supply. For consistency, though, I don't think you can beat cutting at the muzzle, and its no more difficult as long as you have a bench or a tree trunk handy, but it does add a step to the loading process that might confuse beginners while they are trying to get a handle on things.
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At shoots with bench, I always cut at the muzzle from soaked strip, but I pre-cut squares for w-walks most of time. Couldn't tell any difference b/t round and square pre-cuts as long as they were consistent when I tested, but that was some time ago; the squares are definitely easier to crank out. I've got enough pre-cut for my pistol for a few years, but they don't go as fast as my rifle's patch supply. For consistency, though, I don't think you can beat cutting at the muzzle, and its no more difficult as long as you have a bench or a tree trunk handy, but it does add a step to the loading process that might confuse beginners while they are trying to get a handle on things.
Between the thighs youngster, between the thighs (your thighs that is ::) rifle butt on the ground muzzle away from your bod (and everyone elses! ::) Then you have both hands to work with... ;D
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Roger, I am cripple enough that I cannot stand on but one leg. There is no way I could load a muzzleloader like that. That is a good idea to be aware where the muzzle is pointed.
Well, I bought a 1 ¼ inch roller bearing set, but I did not have any luck finding a 2” ball. Rats!!!
I went outside and thought, “What do I have that is 2” and hard?” I looked down at my truck trailer hitch and there it was.
I put the nut in a vice with the ball flange down against the bench vice jaws and tightened it up. The cloth was placed over the ball with the bearing lying on top. When I hit the bearing, it fell onto the floor with a perfect cut patch. After I cut a few patches, I found I could tap on the bearing with a four pound hammer while holding onto the bearing. It only took a few minutes to cut a pile of patches.
I would cut the patches dry gary trapper. If they are wet, the patch will pick up sand from the floor or bench.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv302%2Fjmwilson%2Fpatch.jpg&hash=0090c8a13ba403d3046b86fac77a7f0287c069a0)
I am going to order some Teflon patch material and cut the cloth at the muzzle. I sure would like a one hole group at 50 yards like Roger Fisher.
Mike
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I think your right about lubed patches picking up stuff you dont want but you could put some type of catch bag under it I think. Lube after you cut also takes less lube as your not lubing the waist. Gary
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Gary
I have found the best way to lube the patches is to take five inch forceps, grab the patch by the edge, and dip them into a bottle of patch lube. When I pull the patch out of the bottle, I pull the patch between my finger and thumb to remove most of the lube. Then, I lay the damp patches flat into a plastic snuff can. High tech muzzleoading equipment.
Mike
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If I'm doing lubed patch strips I melt the lube in the microwave and dip the rolled up strip in the melted lube then unrole and role up two(one on each side)two unlubed strips with the lubed one and place in a ziploc bag. The unlubed ones absorb the excess from the center lubed one. So far its worked OK. Gary
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Try this,
Go to the confection at your drug store.Look for a tin about 2x3" called Altnoids. It's a hinged tin.Hinged tins can be opened and closed with one hand while loading. Throw out the crappy candies, drop the empty tin on a hot element of your stove or BBQ.Burns the paint right off, and you've got yourself a nice hinged patchbox to put your pre-cut patches in.Pour on some lube,soak them and go shooting. It doesn't take up much room in your pouch either. I like mine.
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Gary, what kind of patch lube do you use?
Leatherbelly, I see you are a lot like me in that you can't sleep good at night. My wife works at a drug store. I will get her to get me a tin and try it.
Mike
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Flinter, I use Bear greese,comercial past lube and a small(teaspoonfull) portion of JB Bore cleaner paste. I melt this, stir it up and dip the strips in to the liquid. Its pretty hot so I use something to hold the rolled up strips, then I unroll and roll up the two other strips with the wet one and put into thr zip loc bag. Gary
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Wow!- sounds as if you guys spend a lot of time just getting patches lubed. The method LB noted, takes seconds.
Cutting the pre-cuts is the most time consuming - probably 20 minutes would allow 300 or more to be cut with a race and ball, many more with an arch punch or sharpened hole saw.
Between cutting nicks, then ripping 4 strips cloth and pulling off all the looseneed threads off the sides, all the rolling, unrolling, heating and filding with lubes, I'll wager I can cut pre-cuts amounting to those 4 strips, and lube them in however many boxes are needed - about 60 to 100 to a box depending on size) like LB noted and have them lubed and be loaded & ready to go shooting while you're still rolling and unrolling your patch material, trying to get the lube even. I know it's not a race, that isn't the point - just that the pre-cuts and tin boxes makes patchs and carrying them so simple. Plastic bags? Sorry not for me. Can't imagine opening up and re-sealing a plastic bag every time I wanted to load. Nope not going to happen.
Deltoids is only one-such crappy candy tin box that's available. There are several. Also, the snuff boxes and fireatarting boxes Track sells in brass or German Silver work perfectly.
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Deltoids is only one-such crappy candy tin box that's available.
Crappy? I would think DELTOIDS would be "shoulders" above all other candies. ;D
Just a'funnin ;)
I have in fact tried the baggies for hunting (modern ML with flint) and found them a pain also.
I found a bunch of hinged tins about 1 7/8" by 2 1/4" at a rendezvous some years back and they work perfectly for me.
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Back to my hinged tin. I experimented by putting 2 cloth patches in the box while burning the paint off. It smoked a bit for a second or two but it made a nice pattern on the box lid. Sort of looks like it's case hardened. I did it on an electric range and kept turning the box over a few times to get an even burn.
Oh, another thought about lube. For range shooting and trail walks, I use a waterbased lube. Hunting, I recommend straight(pure) neetsfoot oil. My water base lube(range) is -45 WWW fluid based. In a quart jar, I add about 3 to 4 tablespoons full of neetsfoot oil, 1 tablespoon of Dr. Bronner's Magic soap(any veg based castile soap should work),and voila! range lube. Shoots all day,no rinsing,lol!
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I agree with you Daryl about the plastic bags, I should have said that I only use these when I shoot at bullseye type shoots where you have loading benches,range rods, and all the other paraphenalia that goes with that type of shooting. Gary
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I am working on getting some kind of tin to put my patches in. I am going to try electroplating the tin with copper. I am going to try or compare the strips verses the precut and see what happens.
I mixed up some WW fluid and Neatsfoot oil, and man… this stuff is slicker than owl’s s*** as us southern people would say.
These groups were shot last Tuesday. The .021 denim patches were lubed with Hoppes and the distance was 50 yards.
I stopped with a load of 115 grains of 2f Goex, because the patches were looking pretty rough. I plan on using some different lubes and different patch material. I also got some .020 Teflon coated patch material. These loads will probably be shot next Wednesday or Thursday.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv302%2Fjmwilson%2F100.jpg&hash=152453abbc75e416e0dafcdd5ae20a447ab3941c)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv302%2Fjmwilson%2F105.jpg&hash=af69450b04094b5b06c79a4aa3a991757018bcb8)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv302%2Fjmwilson%2F110.jpg&hash=e30f0c8d268ebbf5efdf0a7ec32cddf93256d66c)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv302%2Fjmwilson%2F115.jpg&hash=54fe2a287cc436f9460b6d603e095989065e97df)
Now... I wonder how much the group size can be contributed to my shooting ability. ???
Mike
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Looks like you've hit the nail on the top of the head, Mike. Your groups from 100 to 115 are virtualy identical. Time to start playing with 5 shot groups. Notice these are better on average than your previous 3F groups?
3 shot groups gives you a quick & easy method of finding a load work pursuing. I'd say from those groups, I'd start at 105gr. 2F and shoot more into the same group, as in 5 or 6 max. Shoot mulitple groups, not more shots in each groups than that.
Too - your crown is a bit sharp-cornered/edged - that is obvious from the patches. Bit of 320 or 400 emery - the end of your thumb - perfect results. If you want,you can end up with crocus cloth for a nicer polish. A flinter's barrel is easily polished up in the crown using a lathe - some cap guns too.
Note if a group is round - it is usually a 'good' representation of what the rifle is doing. Thrown shots with a rifle are usually shooter error.
Running different patterns, ie: horizontal or vertical can represent differing requirements on powder or ignition. With our muzzleloading flinters and cap-locks, you're pretty much stuck- but smaller or slightly larger vents can make a difference. Usually the smaller the better for accuracy. Too- a stronger or weaker cap can make a difference. For example, my .69 does NOT like nipples with holes in the sides - hot-shot nipples they are/were called. They were instant group openers at all load levels.