AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Mark Elliott on September 24, 2012, 05:47:04 AM
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This is the first rifle I have finished in two years and I think I may have spent too much time on it, not that I spent two years working on it. I spent about six weeks over two years, but I had a lot of time to think about things in between steps and the decoration definitely changed over time. Somethings were redone a time or two. I tried a lot of things, and it is not supposed to be anything particular other than a Mark Elliott creation. I DID try to produce a coherent design. It is LOOSELY based on some Southwest VA guns but I definitely got contemporary with the silver wire and to a lesser degree, the engraving. I finished all the metal to a degree that I have never seen on an original rifle and then I decided to age the gun, or at least made a pass at it. I may take another pass at it depending on the response here. I am thinking that I should polish all the metal back to a dull even gray and scrub the stock down until the whole stock is light. Just a thought. Anyway, take a look and tell me what you really think. I won't hold any lifelong grudges over it. I promise ;D
Thanks,
Mark E.
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If you want more information on the rifle or to see full resolution versions of the images go to my web site at http://www.markelliottva.com/wordpress/2012/09/rifle-11-s-w-va-rifle/ (http://www.markelliottva.com/wordpress/2012/09/rifle-11-s-w-va-rifle/)
There is detail, particularly the engraving that you can't see on the low resolution images I posted here. However, the gun definitely looks better at a distance than at about 4 times magnification. You can see things in the photos, I can't see with my naked eye or in the florescent light of my shop which might explain some of the problems. However, I do most things with a Optivisor these days and I do have new glasses on order. :D
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Regarding the finish, I think the stock is not too dark but the aged metal does stand out in contrast to the clean stock with no sign of aging. I think that's incongruent or takes away from the coherence of the rifle.
The rifle is well executed but the mix of styles leaves me guessing a little. As an example, the lock panels look quite early in form, and might be more fitting on a rifle made 60 years earlier than those I usually see during the general period of this rifle (guessing 1820-1830).
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Rich,
I was going for something generally around 1800 as far as the general profile and mounts, but you are right in that most of the iron mounted rifles of the late flint period had bulkier lock panels, at least in front and back of the lock. The thing is that I wasn't trying to produce a strictly traditional gun. I wanted something more refined, and I am pretty sure am going to do the same thing on the iron mounted chunk gun that I am building for myself. It does make the gun look more streamlined. I have gotten to hate thick lock panels. They look unfinished to me.
This rifle and the chunk gun I am working on now are fantasy guns. I never intended them to be strictly traditional. They are more pure works of art. I think the only thing that really matters here is if you like it or not. I took what I knew would be a risk in a number of areas and now I am finding out what people think of it. I realized when I did it that the reaction might be very negative.
With regard to the color of the stock, the lighter areas of the stock are where I scrubbed the finish back to represent wear. It was probably a stupid thing to do. I was just playing around with different ways to age the stock. What I ended up doing was a glaze of my standard gunstock finish and lamp black artists oil paint. I painted the entire gun black with this glaze and then scrubbed it back with steel wool. I tried to scrub it more in areas that I felt would get more wear. I don't think I did a very good job of that and I know to do such a thing on a contemporary gun doesn't make sense. Like I said, I was just trying some things. I am pretty sure that I am going scrub the whole stock back to the predominantly lighter color. I may even refinish it. The finish color can be changed. The lock panels can't, but I am pretty happy with that aspect of the gun.
We will see what some other folks have to say. I am bracing for the reaction of some of the more traditionalists.
Thanks,
Mark
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Mark, I think that stock wear looks best matched with some gunk and scars. Here's an original West Virginia rifle quite a bit later. The gunk on the buttstock is really heavy.
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I don't think aging looks out of place on contemporary/fantasy guns- see it and like it on Woodbury guns all the time.
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Very nice,slender and sleek looking. I agree with Rich but would take the gun as is in a heart beat. Smylee
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That is an elegant rifle and I am a man who cares not for wire inlays
but these are so nicely done and restraint exercised in volume and
placement.Any less wouldn't be enough and any more would be too much.
Well done,sir.
Bob Roller
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That sure is some nice iron work Mark - very neatly done but not overdone. It's a fine line sometimes. You have a distinctive sideplate design - you can see the originals that inspired it but you have adapted it to your own style which I like - I think you have used a similar design before on one of your earlier guns. Anyway, I like it. The iron is not pitted or overly aged so I don't think it stands out too much in contrast to the wood finish - that is, I think if someone carries and shoots this gun for a couple of years and does not get fussy with overly cleaning the external areas of the gun the wood will catch up.
Regardless, a nice iron mounted gun.
Guy
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Rich, when you talk of aging do you mean like this?
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I agree with Bob,I am no fan of wire inlay's,even on Lehigh's! Other than that,as stated,it's of no particular design,it is a very fine piece that I would have no hesitation in carrying ANYWHERE! Nice clean work! Well done.
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I'm not knowledgeable on time frames or these types of styles....all I do know is that it's got elegant architecture, the workmansip is excellent and the overall feeling is that of a pleasing, iron mounted LR......Fred
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I think the lines of the gun are great....A very nice piece of work.....I like the lock panels...I like what you did around the breech and tang......Not crazy about the wire inlay, but, its your work....Still, a very nice gun.....Thanks for sharing
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Jeez Man: don't lighten that stock, she's great as she is. Blondies are great; but not on a rifle stock to my mind at least. :)
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Workmanship & overall appearance leaves me in awe.
Stock color beautiful - it would be a shame to lighten it.
If youre looking for a complaint, to my taste the silver wire inlay is too clean & bright. But your hands, black powder residue, chemicals even in the wood itself & the sulfur in our atmosphere will take care of that soon enough.
Personally unfamiliar with details of Southern style. Looks good to me.
For my own taste I make a distinction between "aging", i.e. patina such as on your rifle, and rough use/abuse such as gouges in the wood, heavy rust, marks on the metal.
Most important is YOU like it. You ain't a-gotta report to any of the rest of us.
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Guys, Thanks for the comments so far. I do think I still need to do something with the finish, so more suggestions along those lines would be appreciated. I am looking for a general critique here. That is the only way you learn. I do consider all comments.
Thanks,
Mark E.
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I saw it last night, but there's too much both ways to just say, "I like it" or "I hate it". The only thing I really hate is the wire inlay, which might not be so bad (as others have said) once it tarnishes. As is, it really makes it feel "contemporary" to me.
Minor dislikes are some aspects of the triggerguard -- I would have preferred to see a shorter grip-rail with a little more separation from the stock, and the bow seems to be too large in front compared to the ones I like (they usually "slope" up to the front return); it would be nice to see a spike on it that is a little less radically recurved. My impression of that TG is that it is well made, but looks more like a later NC one than 1800 SW Va. My opinion only, and I have narrow standards!
I don't associate that style of buttplate return strongly with SWVa at the time indicated. If it is faceted and short, so should the comb of the stock be. If not, your "3-sided" comb would be typical, although probably stronger. I also like the common tapered return on the buttplate that narrows as it goes forward. My subjective impression only--yours is too conventional PA or N. VoV for the triggerguard and overall look.
The lock panels need to be a little thicker, esp. behind lock, but not a lot. I think the wrist is a little thin vertically and long for SW Va., but I'm sure others like it.
I like the sideplate a lot, and it could be "dug up" any time from the variations I've seen. The toeplate is neat and in line with the rest. The patchbox is good, just not as good as it could be without the distracting neon inlay. I love the touch of whimsy in the cheek inlay, and I wish you had left that as the "focal point"/fancy touch rather than the wire.
I love the color of the wood and don't see a problem with the finish on the metal.
Anyway, just my ignorant opinion. And it is overall a rifle I'd love to look at in person. Don't be taken aback that I feel strongly about some stuff, please. If you don't offend, you're not doing art :)!
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Mark, I think it has a lot of appeal as a Mark Elliot rifle. It looks more like 1825 to me than 1800. I like a lot of things, others not as well but, a lot of that is personal artistic judgement. AND your judgement is at least as good as mine,
I like the stock finish and am not that fond of the metal, but finishes are always hard to judge in photos. I don't personally like the look that comes from cold blues, either played with or rubbed back and I am guessing this is cold blue. My dislike is largely based on personal bias on cold blues and how they look and smell. I think you get better aging from something that puts a little honest rust on the iron which you can then rub back or let proceed. It give a bit more even darkness with variations of brown and black depending on how much you rub it back.
I agree with BGF on the wrist and the front site looks like a 2012 front site, or a can opener :-)
Again, just offering the opinion you asked for. I like the rifle, just picking nits.
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BGF, I would agree with most of your criticisms with regard to the guard, the rear of the lock panel, and the wrist height. To some extent these were mistakes or because of mistakes. To my mind, that you identified them, lends credibility to your critique. I really like the wire and don't like what I did with the cheekpiece. That cheekpiece was to hide some really bad initial wire work. I really was going after the "NEON" wire effect. I knew that was going to be a love/hate thing.
I don't quite understand what you are trying to tell me about the heel extension of the butt piece and the comb. My comb is not faceted. Are you saying that it should be faceted? I stopped the facets on the heel extension so that I wouldn't have to go to facets on the comb.
The iron mounted gun that I am building now, will have a three faceted heel extension going into a three faceted comb. The curve on that butt piece is maybe a little less than this gun. I was debating about similar wire work on it or carving. Given, your comments, I may go more traditional on it. I was leaning toward carving similar to the John Davison I have documented on my web site. It is a chunk gun so it will be a very fancy chunk gun.
Thanks very much for your well considered input.
Mark E.
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Mark, overall, I like this rifle. Rich mentions a mix of schools, but this does not bother me a tad.
I'd like to see a little more crusty grunge, crackled varnish under the cheek, behind it, around lock panels and at entry pipe and ahead of it to the nosecap. Keep the grip of the forestock just as you have it, wrist wear and color. Looks good. Tarnish the silver back some. For future work, taper the ends of the silver wire where it meets other scrolls. Perhaps some light rusting, rubbed back, on the steel parts. ( I use 44-40 or aqua fortis, then damp box the parts )
I have heard it can take a Looooong time to age a gun properly, almost as long as it took to build the thing. You have made a very nice gun, and the aging is coming along. Coming along, indeed, just more to do to make it convincing.
I am trying to successfully age my work, too.
Thanks for posting this.
Tom
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Mark,
I really like the gun, but hate the silver. It cheapens the gun. It looks like an amateur bought a nice gun and then decided to try his hand at silver inlay. Just being candid.
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Tom, Do you really think I should put more work into the aging or back off on it. Given the bold contemporary look of the silver, I was seriously considering cleaning it all up.
As you indicated, a lot of time has been spent on the finish, metal and wood, and there will certainly be some more.
Thanks,
Mark E.
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Mark,
I've learned more from you than you'll ever get back from me, so just take any feedback from me as honest, not necessarily knowledgeable. I figured you knew what a risk you were taking with the wire -- that is what I meant about "art"! And it is not without precedent, as for example on the one in Noble vol. 1 where there is a wire outline around the rectangular grease hole in lieu of a patchbox.
Mainly, regarding the buttplate, I meant that in iron I would rather have seen an unfaceted one like the one on the Bogle, for example, or a faceted one without a ring transiton that carries the facets into the comb of the stock like the brass mounted "G.B." rifles. On the un-faceted returns, the return often narrows quite a bit along the comb so that it is set into the wood (e.g. the iron mounted GB, or the Jacob Young Whitley rifle). I see those variants as being stronger references to SW Va. than the faceted extension with ring transition, although I know it is not universal in any one way; it just seems to make a stronger statement. And with iron, simpler seems to be the correct default, although they did selectively dress them up a bit at times.
I may be using wrong terminology when I say "3-sided"; I don't mean the wood is faceted (which is done also at times), but that the top of the comb is rounded and there is a distinct "corner" where the sides of the buttstock meet it, rather than being (e.g.) rounded smoothly into each other. Yours does seem to do that (i.e. have a sharp transition, thus be "3-sided"). I hope I haven't confused the issue even more.
Any insight I had into the wrist and triggerguard were from making MUCH more obvious and elementary mistakes and miscalculations on my own :)! The "SW Va." type is a really complex mixture of very subtle but very different (from e.g., PA) elements so that it is a miracle just to get a non-ridiculous rendition. Yours is very well done and instantly evocative, so my criticism isn't harsh, just nit-picky, and in order to start a discussion in which I might learn something!
PS. That Davidson on your webpage has been one of my favorites for a while -- I like it better than THE "J.D." Davidson, esp. in terms of the carving.
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I pulled all the hardware off the rifle, scuffed it up and am re-rusting. I will let it go until I have pits and then scrub back to a fairly even brown. About the wood, I am going to add more gunk, but not enough to cover up the "NEON" silver wire. Actually, it might pop a bit more with the metal darker. I know I am disgusting a number of you. ;D
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Mark....Put the hardware back on and scuff or mess with it....You sure aren't disgusting me....I really like what you have done.....Get it where you think it should be and then go a bit futher.....Just my thoughts....
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I wouldn't do anything to it, looks good like it is. As for the wire, if you were trying for an 1800 time frame and the rifle survived 213 years it could have been added anytime.
Tim C.
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I pulled all the hardware off the rifle, scuffed it up and am re-rusting. I will let it go until I have pits and then scrub back to a fairly even brown. About the wood, I am going to add more gunk, but not enough to cover up the "NEON" silver wire. Actually, it might pop a bit more with the metal darker. I know I am disgusting a number of you. ;D
Out of curiosity, how do you plan on adding "gunk"?
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I had used a glaze of gunstock finish and lamp black oil paint. I may use a layer of that, but sprinkle powdered charcaol on the wet finish and let it all dry then scrub back here and there. It is kind of what I have done on horns. I am new to this level of "aging" so I am making it up as I go. I guess I will just treat it like a painting and build up a little here and a little there. I will be happy to accept suggestions.
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I had used a glaze of gunstock finish and lamp black oil paint. I may use a layer of that, but sprinkle powdered charcaol on the wet finish and let it all dry then scrub back here and there.
........powdered charcoal......that sounds interesting.........I wonder if artist's chalk would work.....want to see this
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IMHO, It would have been a good looking rifle if you had left the wire off. When I look at it, all I see is silver wire & IMHO it doesn't fit the rifle. :-\ Your work is Much Much better than this.
Keith Lisle
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Wow Keith, you really sound disappointed in me, but I respect your opinion.
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For one, I like the rifle. I like the overall architecture of the gun and the proportions and shaping of the buttstock in particular.
The silver does sort of zing you, but it should become less aggressively visible as it tarnishes. Given the antiqued finish on the rest of the rifle, artificially tarnishing the wire would diminish the impact. But that's not really what I understand Mark was trying to achieve.
It sure has generated discussion.
Good to see you building and posting, Mark.
Larry Luck
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Larry,
You are right that I didn't want to diminish the impact of the silver. I used thick wire to make a statement. Like I said at the top, this was a contemporary piece. It was never intended to be a traditional gun of a particular school. It was an experiment, and apparently, it was more successful than I could imagine. I wanted to prompt strong reactions and I did. ;)
I may tone the silver down some, though.
Mark
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You know, it is no fun for an artist to make the same thing that everybody else makes. I know how to build a proper "longrifle". Now, comes the real fun as I learn to decorate them and try new things. Some will be a hit and some will be a miss, and some will be both; but I respect and welcome all opinions.
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Mark, I applaud your courage to put your work out for all to make comment on. I also think you have shown a lot of character in this build, and I like it just for that, besides its graceful form. I have always meekly (safely?) stayed within the 'schools'. Your effort will encourage me to step out of my safe zone, and try a build from a different perspective.
Thanks, Tom
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I really like the looks of the rifle. Love the general lines and metal work on it, and don't really have any serious problem with the silver. It's a work of art, so who other than the artist is to say what's right or wrong. If it was a copy of something that might be differnet, but it's not. It's art. I think if I could wave a wand and "poof" some of the silver could be gone I'd probably remove that silver around the patch box, but I don't mind the silver on the cheekpiece side. Just my two cents worth, and that's about all my opinion is worth.
Great work Mark.
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Mark......I like the architecture of the gun. I would prefer a darker gun, just a personal preferrence. I don't like the silver
wire, it just seems out of place on this type of gun, and, it does have kind of a "neon" affect......Don
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As I've been thinking about the comments, I remembered a very gifted craftsman who used to post here with some regularity, whose work was phenomenal but way beyond the traditional schools: Jerry Huddleston.
Here is a link to a page on his site that shows an expertly built piece with details found nowhere in Kindig or RCA:
http://www.jwh-flintlocks.net/vigilance-pg2.html
Mark's is different, for sure, but so is Jerry's.
Larry Luck
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Larry, I will try to go back to a little more historically correct for a while, but sometimes, you just have to throw something against the wall to see if it sticks.
Mark
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Oh..... To Tom..... I have actually been to art school, and in art school, EVERYTHING you do is critiqued by the ENTIRE class and the teacher. You all gather in a circle around the work while 20 or so other people tell you what the particularly like or don't like about the work; and woe be unto you if you didn't put forth your best effort. It will show and you will get crucified.
Part of your grade in every class is for how well you critique others. It is how you learn. So... I am not so brave as you think. It is just something I learned to do and expect. You also learn to stand up for your work and respect other peoples opinions without taking them to heart. No artist, graphic or performing would get very far if they took criticism personally. They would just stop doing it. In formal critiques you talk very specifically about the work and not the artist. You avoid making it any more personal than it has to be. Most people try to be honest and kind. Some teachers though, seem to, at the very least, not give a @!*% about the student's feelings. There is always a good bit of crying freshman year of art school.
Mark
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Wow Keith, you really sound disappointed in me, but I respect your opinion.
Mark, I am not disappointed in you, I just don't care for the wire in that style rifle & don't feel it fits it. It was not meant as any disrespect. I have allot of respect for you and your work. Your work by far exceeds anything I do. But you did ask for opinions & I know you hoped to hear both sides of the story. I may be the only one that doesn't care for the wire, or could be the only one that will actually say it. I have studied every piece I have ever seen you post, over & over. You do awesome work, no doubt about it. I just don't think the wire inlay enhanced the rifle. Probably just me.
:)
Keith Lisle
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I like the rifle a lot. There's nothing so radical about it's lines that it takes it out of the traditional LR,,but yet the maker is comfortable not to be a slave to a particular maker/style.
I like that and see myself doing that more often than not when building one or a cartridge gun. There's plenty of attempts at strict copies of originals,,most come up short when critiqued from that view.
So why not let your own style creep into the build. The level of workmanship & craftsmanship stays the same.
No matter what you build,,it'll never please everyone no matter how well it's done.
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Mark,
Thanks for posting the rifle. It takes courage to put something different up in front of the world. I respect you for doing it and asking for an honest critique. I think you did a great job with the architecture. I personally don't care for the skinny lock panels. I prefer the skinny lock panels top and bottom, but like the front and rear elongated. I think it helps the rifle flow if done correctly. However I can appreciate you going the route of additional refinement. I do feel that it does add. I think you did a great job on the mounts. You usually have very smooth lines these are no different. I don't have an opinion on the wire other than I think it will look better once it tarnishes. I respect the rifle for what it is. A contemporary rifle. I say keep pushing . You said it best, you wanted to try something new. You can build a traditional rifle. Keep pushing with each rifle and see where you end up 10 rifles from now.
I can relate you your art school experience. I went to architecture school. We presented to the entire class and a guest teacher. Rarely did people try to be nice. Eventually you learn to take the best of the critique and not take it personal. Your lessons learned will take you far in your art.
Thanks for posting.
Marc
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Kieth,
I didn't think you disrespected me or offended me in any way. You did what I asked you to do and I appreciate it. By the way, you are not alone in thinking the wire inlay was out of place. I know that the gun would be much more conventional and appropriate without the wire, but I still like it. I am still tweaking it a bit and will re-photograph it when I am done. When done with it, it will just sit on the wall of my shop until somebody wants it. In the mean time, I will use it as my hunting rifle. Use and abuse will only make it better.
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You know, it is no fun for an artist to make the same thing that everybody else makes. I know how to build a proper "longrifle". Now, comes the real fun as I learn to decorate them and try new things. Some will be a hit and some will be a miss, and some will be both; but I respect and welcome all opinions.
Hard to get out of the comfort zone and stretch your abilities.......but how else are we going to learn without doing? I applaud your statement.
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Well, I'm late.... ::)
I like the gun. I'm sure you have seen my work so take all of this with a grain of salt.
The architecture is good. I find the fact that the gun has such finely made hand forged mounts impressive. I'm a bit giddy and envious of your bravery with those slim lock panels....I've been trying to pull off something like that for years but just don't have the balls for it.
Now, this is just my personal opinion of course..... I'd match the metal and wood ageing. Go ahead and lighten up the wood in the wear areas and bash it around a bit. Bash a couple dings in the barrel also....always an interesting effect.....so much for that... ;)
I think This gun is good enough it didn't need the wire to pull it off. I understand the artistic desire to add it and the artistic statement works, but I just don't think this particular gun needed it, even though the execution is excellent. I certainly like the thickness of the wire around the patch box, very bold. I'm guessing that while you play around with the finish the wire may end up working better if you tone it down a bit. Great wire design, just a bit startling at the moment.
Thanks for posting this up for critique, I believe we all learn something when somebody does this sort of thing.
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Mikes,
Thanks for the input. Since you make your living at this, your opinion is worth quite a bit. I am working more on the metal and wood finish. Hopefully, it will improve the look a bit.
Thanks,
Mark E.
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I just got to this thread and like Mike feel a bit late. There are many things I like about the rifle, and would be proud to add it to my rack. The lock panel is fine, but not traditional. Traditional lock panels are pretty ugly in my opinion. I would have extended the wrist back into the comb to the spur of the guard. That would have exaggerated the slimness of the wrist and the whole architecture, and i love that in a delicately made beautiful rifle.
The forestock is remarkably thin along the barrel channel, yet is not slab sided in any way - remarkable, I'll say it again. The silver wire is abrupt. It's screaming affect could have been softened by tapering the terminals, and using slightly thinner ribbon. But I like the effect of it as is, regardless. Personally, I don't care for aging - I subject my rifles to serious use, and they age naturally fast enough. I really like all of the "iron" furniture and the way it has been employed in this build. I have an iron mounted mountain rifle to build yet, and have studied a lot of material to get a feeling for it, but even so, I cannot say I could pull off such a great rifle as this, even if it was labelled a fantasy or non traditional rifle. To step away from what is recognizable as 'correct' and still come up with a great rifle is so commendable. I applaud Mark's work on this one...I'd love to shoot it.
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The pros have given you some very high quality feedback...on a beautiful gun.
Here is my opinion for what it is worth..... Wiley Higgens was a great silversmith who..in my opinion gott carried away with what he knew best... when building rifles..... I think they and many 19th century guns are jus gaudy......... But you can't say he didn't have guts to push the limits!!
So i think you should add more wire... at the entry thimble and at the muzzle thimble and maybe the middle thimble as well.......Make a statement!! I like the lock panel very much.... somehow the side panel looks fat iin the butt to me.... maybe just angle of view..... Cause as small as the lock panel is, how could the side panel be too fat??
I appreciate your stepping out and creating your gun and still paying homage to the ancestry.