AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Acer Saccharum on August 28, 2013, 04:10:23 PM
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I thought I'd give stabbing a try, as I've never done a whole design with this method.
The first thing you gotta do before stabbing the carving is to have your drawing EXACTLY what you want. Once stabbed in, the design is committed. I spent a lot of time drawing, erasing, drawing again. I even sent pictures to friends who commented on 'this or that might look better if'.... this is really helpful.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi12.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa246%2FTom45-70%2FContemporary%2520guns%2FBeastie%2520build%2FDSC_2539_zps83d9c64f.jpg&hash=e2ef0f786187902422a3f96fd25ffa36eb5fab0b) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/Tom45-70/media/Contemporary%20guns/Beastie%20build/DSC_2539_zps83d9c64f.jpg.html)
I made up some tools out of spring steel, old gravers, whatever happens to be about the right size. These are round ended tools:
1) the biggest, on the left, is 1/8" wide, is beveled on BOTH faces, sharp as a razor on the edge.
2) the middle tool is FLAT on one side, rounded on the other, about 3/32 wide at the tip. This enables one to make pretty tight radius curves. The flat side MUST be toward the inside of the curve.
3)The small tool on the right is about 1/16 wide. Flat on one side, round on the other.
The marks in the wood: top is STAMPED in with a mallet. The bottom marks are PUSH and ROLL.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi12.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa246%2FTom45-70%2FRelief%2520carving%2FStabbing%2FDSC_2571_zps1d634f0c.jpg&hash=4c600555f7704d0ee68a48e839c22d00f63574cf) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/Tom45-70/media/Relief%20carving/Stabbing/DSC_2571_zps1d634f0c.jpg.html)
As seen looking at the edge of the tool, you can see how thin I've ground them down.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi12.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa246%2FTom45-70%2FRelief%2520carving%2FStabbing%2FDSC_2569_zpsd1898a8b.jpg&hash=e4a1172178c8a632357f6340e75d77f1ef57f76b) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/Tom45-70/media/Relief%20carving/Stabbing/DSC_2569_zpsd1898a8b.jpg.html)
Instead of tapping the tools in, I push down and roll the tool in the direction I want it to travel, steering while I roll. I can go over this as many times as I like to deepen the cut. I can tap the tools in, too, but the rolling allows me to follow a line better; it's not quite so 'stepped'.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi12.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa246%2FTom45-70%2FRelief%2520carving%2FStabbing%2FCutbyrolling_zps8bb5cd94.jpg&hash=d283ea8b53d4ad2ea67d0a68294347b5398041fd) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/Tom45-70/media/Relief%20carving/Stabbing/Cutbyrolling_zps8bb5cd94.jpg.html)
Completed stabbing. Now the background must be removed, and then the raised relief must be detailed. But that is for another day....
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi12.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa246%2FTom45-70%2FRelief%2520carving%2FStabbing%2FDSC_2562_zps2119da90.jpg&hash=81807ae5f29dccdd0d9afa3823f06cc9b018ee5e) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/Tom45-70/media/Relief%20carving/Stabbing/DSC_2562_zps2119da90.jpg.html)
Here is a sample photo of backgrounding for relief carving. I used a small fishtail gouge, maybe a #3 sweep x 6mm wide, which is shallow curvature, to cut away the background up to the stabbed lines. Once sufficiently cut down, I switch to a small rasp to flatten out the peaks and valleys of the gouging. THEN I scrape the rasped surface smooth. Turn your piece in low angling light so your eye can pick up high and low spots, inconsistencies of contour, etc.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi12.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa246%2FTom45-70%2FContemporary%2520guns%2FBeastie%2520build%2Frelief_zps972c2232.jpg&hash=9bca322284781b8134a9202301a78ea037fbfb12) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/Tom45-70/media/Contemporary%20guns/Beastie%20build/relief_zps972c2232.jpg.html)
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ps: the relief work at the end of the cheekpiece is done with a parting tool, which still needs a lot of cleanup. I changed horses mid-stream.
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I give credit to Rich Pierce for the 'Rolling tool' method. He gave me a tool he'd made with just the same contours as the above flat backed tools. I took his idea and miniaturized the tools.
That is what this whole experience of making things is for me. I gather ideas from all over the map, and put them together in my own mental 'tool box'. My hope is that you'll see something in the tools or techniques above that you can use for your own projects. I certainly mine the ALR and my bretheren for ideas. Thank you very much, everyone.
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Tom,Thats a great looking technique. I plan on giving it a try in the future. IT should be put in the tutorial section.
topknot
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Thanks for the suggestion, TopKnot.
Before it would go in the tutorials, I have to see how the technique pans out for me in the actual build.
After the topic has spent some time HERE, in building, there will be feedback from others that may alter my techniques or tools.
Once I've processed and revised the information, I'll put it into the Tutorial section.
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many thanks for taking the time to post the great pics and narrative, Tom.
/mike
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Well darnit just when I was getting pretty confident with my parting tool - now I'm going to have to give this a try and compare :). That looks really nice and crisp so far! Once relieving is started, is it possible to go back and make the cuts deeper with those same rolling tools? I'm looking forward to seeing how it turns out for you.
-Eric
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I'm looking forward to seeing how it turns out for you.
-Eric
Don't be putting a jinx on me!
I like the crispness. So Far. We'll see how it goes after relieving. I may have to make some special chisels for relieving where I have to get into round-ended notch. A knife, skew and fishtail will work for much of the relief work.
I have always done the parting tool for outlining, so I'm pretty excited about this.
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What kind, as in length/shape, handles do they have?
Thanks, Tim C.
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What kind, as in length/shape, handles do they have?
Thanks, Tim C.
What is this, the Spanish Inquisition?
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I will post some pix of the handles soon. Short overall tool length is ideal. Mine are some stupid handles that I have to change. They're not comfortable.
Graver handles, with a broad ended handle, is easier to apply pressure with little fatigue. The graver handles have a flat on one side, so have that line up with the flat side of the cutting tool when you mount the tool in the handle.
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What Tom Says.. My stabbing tools are made to extend about 2 inches from either a palm chisel or push graver handle. Running with the grain you can easily sink the chisel in an eigth inch or better.. Don't know why you would need to.. Go easy when running cross grain in a hard piece of wood...
Regards
Dave
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I was always taught that high end cabinet and furniture carvers stabbed in and that the parting tool method was used on lesser quality items.
David
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Oh, hahahahah, Oh, help! I just fell off my chair. Dave, would you please come over and help me up?
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Thanks for taking the time to post this! Wonderful photos.
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Boy would I love to see a short video clip of these tools in action...hint..hint ;)
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Acer, the method that Ed Wenger shows at the ALR Tent, and David Price Method Tutorial at Dixon's appear to be similar. Your method here is with smaller tools and rolling to outline as compared to using gouge radius. Much less outlay for tools required. Waiting on your finished work.
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Ed Wenger? Who's that?
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NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!
carry on.
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Like the design.
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And now for something entirely different... ;D
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But seriously, I'm currently stabbing in a carving pattern myself. I'm sold on this method. My results took a major leap forward when I began using it. I'll try and take a few photos along the way.
Jeff
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Jack Haugh stabbed his carving and used an ice pick for the tool...He told me he blunted the end till he had the size he wanted, and stoned a flat on it, and then sharpened it...Same tool Gary uses...A flat and radiused face for outlining the carving...That is how I do mine and it works great...Dan
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I tried a stab-move-stab method, and ended up with a slightly more steppy look. Maybe it won't make any difference in the finished carving; I don't have enuff experience behind me yet.
But I really do like the result of the stab-and-roll. The only tool I might add would be a little flat cisel for the end cuts, where two lines come together at a VEE, for example. Round nosed tools won't get to the very point of the Vee, if you get my point.
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Good stuff, Tom! Dan brought up a great point about ice picks. For those who don't want to spend a bunch of money, with just a little work, they make great tools for stab carving. I typically like to use gouges for radius cuts, like volutes, but a small ice pick tool (about 1/8") works well also.
Just my two cents about drawing... I like to lay everything out on paper, then transfer the drawing to the stock with carbon paper. For me, I've found it easier to tweek / erase on a piece of paper. You can turn the paper to different angles, look at it in a mirror, etc., to get it "just so". Plus, you have a copy of what you've done, and you can take the drawing to a copier and reduce / enlarge to fit your needs. I have a note book full of designs, some used on pieces, and many that haven't been used. Also, I think this has helped me with design layout, and getting a better understanding of what I want to carve. Same thing with engraving...
Anyway, great thread!
Ed
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Ed, I think that is a great idea. Just as 18th Cent furniture builders had pattern books, I suspect some gunsmiths would have developed shop drawings, at the very least, to use as a motif on future work. European smiths had pattern books.
Some smiths' carvings are like a fingerprint or signature, you know whose work it is from across the room. Other smiths had such variety, it's doubtful they kept drawing of their work.
The above is just speculation, I wasn't there at the time.
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I have a question. What advantage is there in using a hand full of thin narrow chisels, when you can just use an Exacto knife to stab and roll? I am no master wood carver, but the exacto seems to work fine, even on tight curves. You're only going maybe 1/32" deep most of the time, and just a bit more on the butt carve. I use the large version with a plastic type tool grip with the common angled blade. I don't see any difference in the out come. Am I missing something? Just asking.
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LRB, I might be missing something! ;D
I know if I used a knife, I'd have deep scores running all over my stock.
Bill the Ship uses a knife, so he says, and there aint no flies on his work.
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I made my first "rolling stabber" tool for entirely different purposes. It's a round ended, very sharp chisel that will perfectly stab in the ends of the half round inlet for 3/8" thimbles very efficiently and also works pretty well for bottoming the nose of the lock inlet. Then I started to stab some carving with a little bitty tool and wanted to go faster (not an uncommon urge and one that often leads to bad outcomes). I tried the round ended tool and it worked pretty well and had great control. In the end a variety of tools can be used effectively but control is easier for some folks with one tool, and with another tool for other folks. Before I tried stabbing I always used a parting tool. They all have their merits and applications.
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....I know if I used a knife, I'd have deep scores running all over my stock....
Tom, I don't think there is any more danger of stray marks on the stock using an x-acto knife for stabbing and rolling than there is using these lens shaped tools.
The danger begins when one tries to cut or slice with the knife instead of stabbing with it.....that's when most slips would occur.
Enjoy, J.D.
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JDK, just trying to understand: like you stab straight in, then roll the handle of the knife in the direction of the cut?
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LRB, I might be missing something! ;D
I know if I used a knife, I'd have deep scores running all over my stock.
Bill the Ship uses a knife, so he says, and there aint no flies on his work.
Pretty much, yes. As JDK said, You just stab the point in, give a little rock or roll, then move on. In tight areas, you just stab and move. I never slice in doing that. That could lead to trouble.
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Xacto makes several knife styles, one is like a bayonette blade, double edged. Do you use that, or the single edge, very fine point?
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What advantage is there in using a hand full of thin narrow chisels, when you can just use an Exacto knife to stab and roll
Wick
I think we tend to migrate towards the method we first learn and feel most comfortable with.I was fortunate that during Gary Brumfields carving class he forced us to carve using three distinct methods.
Stabbing in with gouges,Stabbing in with Gray's stamping tool and outlining with a v tool.He recommended that we do the largest amount of carving on our practice piece with the method that we were least familiar with.This showed me the importance of using all different techniques at my disposal. I will certainly give your method a try, your results are certainly impressive. In studying original work you will see that different methods were used by different original builders. In order to create a believable interpretation of original work I feel I must also be able to make use of these different methods.
Mitch Yates
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You're right Mitch. Before I tried any carving, 1976, I was studying Bivens' articles on carving in Rifle magazine. It just looked easier to execute a penciled line and design by stabbing in, rather than trying to learn to control a V chisel, and for me it was. I decided that rather than make special little chisles I would try it on a piece of scrap using an Exacto. It worked very well, so I never made the chisels. I also learned that carving has something in common with engraving. If the design is not good, no matter how well it is cut, it will still not be good.
ACER, I just use the common single edge blades. There is one thing to be careful about, and that is twisting the blade and popping the point off in the wood. I usually re shape the angle a few degrees to give it more strength, although I have only popped one off. I was able to remove the broken point when I relieved the back ground.
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I use a veiner to outline some of the lines. I also just use a small carving knife and drag the tip thru the wood following the arcs and lines.
You keep the tool under complete control by using both hands .
You use the thumb of the tool hand to press down on and/or lock in front of the off hand to hold control the tool as you pull it backwards.
Don't try and free-hand it. There'll be long knife marks accross the stock,,maybe elsewhere.
It's easier for me to keep nice sweeping arcs that way.
I've just never had any good luck stabbing in a pattern. It's just me, as the rest of the world does fine by it. I can't keep the arcs and lines correct unless I cut them in faster.
Everyone finds a comfortable way to do different things and achieve the same results.
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Wick, I've used Xacto knives as well, and still do for really close work. The only thing that I had a problem with, was my fingers got really sore, lol. I agree totally with Mitch in that we tend to gravitate to a method that works best for you. Plenty of ways to skin a cat, and it sounds like you have a great method!
Ed
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This showed me the importance of using all different techniques at my disposal.
This is it in a nut-shell.
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I was giving some thought to trying a leather carvers swivel knife to do the cut in but I think it would still be prone to chase the grain and go astray. anyone else ever try that?
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Those wire inlay stabbing tools made with a reground exacto knife and an engraver's handle might work out about the same.
I forgot which post that was...
Albert
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Wire inlay tools and stabbing tools are quite similar. I don't know if the slightly different requirements would would allow one set of tools to do both tasks. I don't really know what I'm talking about, so I'm going to pose some thoughts about it.
The stabbed channel for wire needs to be wide enough at the bottom to receive the wire. Will that wide channel show up if you used these tools for relief work?
The stabbing for relief caving only needs to cut the wood fibers so the background material will pop off once the layers are sliced. You really don't want a wide stabbed channel to show up at the junction of the relief and the background.
However, due to the nature of wood, that stabbed channel will close up over time or when moistened during the staining/dewhiskering process. I have heard it said that the stabbed line stains dark, making the relief visually 'pop' out.
So, you may very well be able to use wire inlay tools for your stabbing. Anyone out there know what the answer is?
Since I've already made stabbing tools, I'll use those. ;)
Just thinking out loud.....
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I was giving some thought to trying a leather carvers swivel knife to do the cut in but I think it would still be prone to chase the grain and go astray. anyone else ever try that?
concept is nice..never thought of trying something like that. Now swivel knife blades are very thick and have pretty close to a 90 degree bevel on the cutting edge. Might be able to take one of the filigree blades that are finer and grind em to a fine bevel and edge. Thing to remember though is that most leather tooling is done on a flat surface and I'm not sure how well it would respond on the complex contours of a stock...
Good luck...let us know how it works...like Acer says, its all about learning and broadening the mind!
John
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It's hard to broaden a small mind...... ;D
This is always kinda neat when you put an idea out there, and you see all the different ways people do things. And like Mitch said, it's worth knowing about all the options on how to do the carving. On one gun, you may have to employ ten different techniques, with subtle variations of those.
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Something which I don't think has been discussed in this thread is the use of a small fixed blade knife with a nice curve near the point. I was taught by Jim Kibler that such a knife could be used on some of the outline where stab in gouges might not fit too well - generally on gentle curves. I use such a knife when the curve doesn't fit well with a #2 gouge and is not straight where a #1 would work. The blade is carefully rocked along the line using the curved portion of the blade. It is not dragged with a slicing motion. This probably isn't too different than LRBs rocking Exacto technique. just uses a bit sturdier tool. Of course things Kibler can do successfully do not necessarily ressult in similar results for me.
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Let's not mention Kibler. :D
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You can use the same tool for stabbed in carving that you use for wire inlay, but then I don't use a reground Xacto knife for this... The stabbing tool I use for wire inlay is very similar to what Acer posted photos of. After a line is stabbed in, it's then widened with another tool. I'll have to take some photos...
Ed
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Ed, that's exellent thinking. Use the stab tools to cut the fibers. Then use wire inlay tools to widen the channel. Going over the lines/curves a second time is an opportunity to smooth things out.
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Wasn't my idea, I certainly didn't "invent" it, LOL.... I learned the technique from Wallace Gusler.
Ed
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Ed, my theory is that none of this is 'invented'. The information already exists. 200 years ago the info got passed from master to journeyman to apprentice, by word of mouth, by example. New technology made much of the tooling and techniques slip out of mainstream practices, used only by a few crazy people and backwoodsmen. Serious students like Gusler, Brumfield, Kettenburg, to name a a few, have done more for us than we can imagine.
An idea is put forth on the web, and many people will see it, take it to heart, or let it go by. But the idea is out there, and it's still alive. Then a guy like Kibler comes along and puts this stuff to use, and inspires a another whole generation of builders and artists.
To me, the transition from master/Journeyman/apprentice to a web-based program is truly fascinating. The web lack the real hands-on that you get with the old system, but it does get the ideas out there. If one augments their web knowledge with some hands-on classes, like the NMLRA offerings at Western Kentucky University, or one-on-one classes offered at the Log Cabin Shop, it goes a long way toward a modern day substitute for the master/Journeyman/apprentice program.
:o