AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: davec2 on January 14, 2015, 10:58:40 PM
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I have a Chamber kit for an English rifle that I purchased quite some time ago now. All the inletting and component work is complete but I am looking for options about the final finish work (i.e. engraving of not, checkering, carving, etc.) So I am looking for any photos / recommendations you guys might have on options for the final configuration on this one. Again, as with the copy of Jim Kibler's rifle I recently completed, I am trying to get out of my own predilections here and learn something new as I go along. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Dave C
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Do you have a copy of John Schipper's book on engraving?
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Taylor,
Yes, I have John's book and I know there are several versions of an English rifle in it. I also have pictures of a very plain but very elegant rifle built by Steven Alexander. I have also closely examined the pictures of the William Turvey rifle the Chambers version was patterned after. I am just looking for as many options as I can round up.
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I do the same thing Dave. I research every build, perhaps more than necessary. I find it interesting that you, having established your own beautiful style of engraving, might be looking for other options. I find myself reluctant to step out on the flimsy limb of my own artistic ability to create carving and engraving of my own, and applaud you and others who can not only get away with it, but master it.
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Hi Dave,
Boy, I'll bet this one will be a beauty. I attached a photo of shell carving on a pistol I did a while a go. The unfinished wood shows the cuts better because there is no glare from the finish. The carving was inspired by a Twigg sporting gun and another by James Freeman. Rifles often had similar decoration.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi518.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu344%2Fdavid_person%2Frococoshell2.jpg&hash=f4f35c12c182b41de5179e6dc955e924f8af9dc8)
Do you have access do a copy of Neal and Back's "Great British Gunmakers 1740-1790"? It contains excellent photos of period engraving and decoration. Also, Dave, I have an original London-made fowling gun from the 1760s or 1770s with classic decoration for the time. Obviously, it is not a rifle but it may provide some ideas. Do you want me to take some photos and send them by e-mail?
dave
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That is really sweet, Dave - and in walnut, too yet.
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Dave,
I think picking a time frame is important, as decorative styles changed.... also it may help to pick one or two builders of that period and hone in on their work..... some did checkering and others did not.. some did none on earlier guns and did it on later guns... Obviously it depends on how true to a period you want to be...... If you don't care about a particular period you can just use your artistic abilities and make a contemporary gun with a historic taste...... With your skills you just have too many options!!! ;D ;D Just do it right! eh? ;)
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Hi Bob,
Thank you. The carving was done for a pair of dueling pistols I made a few years back.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8046.0
Dave,
Tim is bang on about styling and period. The Chamber's English rifle is typical of rifles made between 1730-1760. During the latter part of that period, lockplates on quality English guns were more often flat, not round faced. Checkering of any sort would not be common unless added later, which certainly happened. The Turvey gun in RCA #1 is a good example for the early part of that period. I will send some photos of a B. Griffen gun (about 1750) from Bailey's book on British military rifles.
dave
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I'd be carefull about posting those photos with out the author's permission.... :P
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Hi Mike,
You are probably right. I removed them and will send them to Dave by e-mail.
dave
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David,
Great tang carving photo....Thanks !!! And great advice. I do have a copy of Neal and Back's "Great British Gunmakers 1740-1790" and, even better because of the outstanding color photography, I have a copy of the Christie's auction catalog from November of 2000 (Fine Antique Firearms from the W. Keith Neal Collection). However, I would also appreciate the photos of the fowler you offered as well. (and the other photos that you have redacted from the ALR site.)
Dr. Tim,
While I am not overly concerned about being spot on a particular period, I do want to learn enough about what was done and when so that I do not wander too far afield in applying my own interpretation on any particular build.
Taylor,
Thanks for the vote of confidence in my engraving style but, personally, I feel that I am still very far out on "the flimsy limb of my own artistic ability" as you so aptly put it. I like pieces of what I have done but I know it is still greatly lacking in overall cohesiveness. I am not sure if I am still looking for my own particular style or if I would just like to be able to execute a build in any of the most admired styles, past and present. It's sort of like being fluent in several languages.....on the other hand, perhaps I am just artistically schizophrenic.
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That's better than being artistically dyslexic, like me. :o
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Daryl......Yes...or....I'm not under the alcofluence of incahol but some thinkle peep I am......
Hey David...can you email me the pictures you mentioned in your post ? Thanks
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(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Gary%20Mummery%20work/DSCN1455_zps464a2ed6.jpg) (https://s3.photobucket.com/user/DTaylorSapergia/media/Gary%20Mummery%20work/DSCN1455_zps464a2ed6.jpg.html)
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(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Gary%20Mummery%20work/DSCN1456_zps30ba12ec.jpg) (https://s3.photobucket.com/user/DTaylorSapergia/media/Gary%20Mummery%20work/DSCN1456_zps30ba12ec.jpg.html)
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(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Gary%20Mummery%20work/DSCN1457_zps3169602b.jpg) (https://s3.photobucket.com/user/DTaylorSapergia/media/Gary%20Mummery%20work/DSCN1457_zps3169602b.jpg.html)
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(https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/DTaylorSapergia/Gary%20Mummery%20work/DSCN1458_zps5031f06d.jpg) (https://s3.photobucket.com/user/DTaylorSapergia/media/Gary%20Mummery%20work/DSCN1458_zps5031f06d.jpg.html)
Here's a Chambers' Gent's rifle made by my good friend Gary Mummery from Marysville, BC several years ago. He used English walnut, a Durs Egg left hand lock and rust blued the barrel. Very nice job!!
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Hi Dave,
I am sorry. I got distracted with shop work. I will immediately e-mail the photos I have on hand but I will take photos of the fowler tomorrow.
dave
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Taylor,
Thanks for the great pictures. Beautiful job by Mr. Mummery.
David,
Thanks for sending the photos. I look forward to seeing them.
Dave C
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Stick to only checkering which should be flat topped 18 or 20 lines to the inch with a small silver shield on the wrist .Carving makes it look more Continental
Feltwad
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I have a large book all about British flint guns from the 1760 to 1810 period and nearly every one of them in that book has carving.
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Check Shumways book, gun # 120
An southern re-build I have always liked.
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I have a large book all about British flint guns from the 1760 to 1810 period and nearly every one of them in that book has carving.
Most guns by migrant foreign gun makers have a continentail influence and not true English Sporting Rifle you will also find that the true English rifle do not have a check piece , the lock moulding are narrow and most are finished with a tear drop , checkering is 18 to 20 lines to the inch and is flat topped
Feltwad
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This is mine, made from the Chambers kit. I know the sight isn't in keeping, but this is strictly a hunting rifle, and I can't see open sights well enough to feel comfortable using them.
(https://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt149/RN6XC/MLSportingRifle011-1.jpg)
(https://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt149/RN6XC/MLSportingRifle007.jpg)
(https://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt149/RN6XC/MLSportingRifle001.jpg)
(https://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt149/RN6XC/MLSportingRifle009.jpg)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi606.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt149%2FRN6XC%2FMLSportingRifle012.jpg&hash=0f8aa2c1c92bc6faf09c1efd4753cfb1f5ac46f6)
It is a great rifle for carrying, and 54 sure works for me.
P.S. Does anyone have one NOT in left hand? Funnily enough, I went and stayed with my Father when he lived at the Tower of London, and spent some time in the armories. Not a single lefty. Seemed odd to me, as they made left locks for double guns. Odd, possibly even sinister........
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Another book to look at is "Great BRITISH Gunmakers 1740-1790.
The History of John Twigg and the Packington Guns.
I guess it's all about "migrant foreign gun makers". ??????????
196 pages
Several hundred pictures of guns.
I can find about 5 that are uncarved and NONE have dimond checkering.
A few have square checkering and those are flat topped, but set at about 5-6 lines per inch, not 18.
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I expect feltwad is referring to very late flint and percussified rifles. That seems to be his love and main focus of study from past posts. I see the very wide wrist gridwork getting some steam in the fourth quarter of the 18th century on English pieces.
As much as I like joke about it the fact is that without those migrant foreign workers coming into the English firearms picture beginning in the late 17th century, we would not be researching building any of them : )
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Mr Rogers
Strong words but after 66 years of collecting and restoring antique weapons of all periods I think I have some idea what I am talking about.
Feltwad
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To RossN
You mention the absence of left handed guns. It could be the superstitions of left handed people during those times.
Here in North America lefties were discouraged in schools right up to the 1950's.
Perhaps that was influenced in the gun making as well?
I am overwhelmed at the fine work it this topic.
Thank you all!
Fred
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RossN
Like the sight. I will have to do a similar thing on a Haines build I have in progress. How is the sight attached? Screw? Dovetail?
Can you add more pictures of the sight close up?
Thanks
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Mr Rogers
Strong words but after 66 years of collecting and restoring antique weapons of all periods I think I have some idea what I am talking about.
Feltwad
I think you may have seriously misinterpreted the intent of my post. Only my first sentence was in reference to you. It may well be my misinterpretation of YOUR posts but in past conversations I seem to remember late flint and percussion was your forte.
What most associate as the English sporting rifle did not solidify characteristics until the late flint period in my opinion. I see heavy mimic and even comment as to "in the German manner" prior and that was not just in reference to a rifled bore.
If you are referring to my comment about foreign migrants in the English gun trade, that was having to do with prior banter between myself and a few others on this board some time ago. French and Dutch influence, directly into the English trade along with English restraint, IMO was the catalyst for what the guns came to be. I do agree that in the days of the evolved English sporting rifle, the continental elements you mention are not present in them. Sorry to have offended.
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RossN, I like the clean line of your rifle, the fact that it is correct handed is a nice bonus. Like gumboman, I would like some more information on the sight itself, and if it is working out for you.
Robby
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RossN,
Thank you for the pictures. I intend to use a very similar rear sight as pictured in an old post of mine....
Some time back I was perusing photos of a large bore English rifle built by one of my favorite contemporary makers, Stephen Alexander. This rifle had a rear "ghost ring" sight mounted very close to the breech which peaked my interest. I made up some dummy sights and glued them to the barrel of a build I am working on and I love the sight picture through them. In querying Stephen on the rear sight, he told me that this type of sight was frequently used on Turkish flint firearms and on some English and Continental ones as well. Does any one out there have any more information or examples of similar rear sights used in the 18th or early 19th centuries?
Thanks
(https://preview.ibb.co/dVsZQS/Stephen_Alexander_Rifle_2.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jux15S)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fH8kX7/Stephen_Alexander_Rifle_3.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hqiKs7)
Here is the whole thread - some interesting responses from others to my question: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=27794.0
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Dave,
That's a very fine looking sight. I don't suppose you have a picture of it looking down the barrel from the breech so that we might see the actual sight profile? Thanks.
Dan
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Hi Dave. I don't know if this will add much to what you've already got, but here is the link to the Twigg inspired rifle I did a while ago.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=27955.0
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(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/Gunmaker/english%20doglock%20breechloader/060.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/Gunmaker/english%20doglock%20breechloader/061.jpg)
Folding peep sight English ca 1670's breech loading rifle.
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Mike,
I wonder if those holes were drilled cockeyed to correct a problem or was the builder just lousy at centering things up. It seems inconsistent with the care that English builders normally used.
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Mike,
I wonder if those holes were drilled cockeyed to correct a problem or was the builder just lousy at centering things up. It seems inconsistent with the care that English builders normally used.
Yeah, at first glance it looks downright goofy/sloppy/awful. But as I think about it, could it be to accommodate the slight movement of ones head up/down (unsquare as it may be) to use the different apertures?
even then it does look a bit
awful. :P Looks like maybe the middle hole was laid out and drilled proper, then later a hack added the upper and lower holes.
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Have come across a simular type of back sight I thought it was too allow for windage at long range {any comments}
Feltwad
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Could be these holes were drilled off and they actually shoot to point of aim....I'm guessing. It is a 12 bore so it may shoot a little odd at distance. I believe the entire rear sight to be original to the gun including the sight leaf.
OR, The guy was sloppy like me and that's just where the holes ended up.
I wouldn't mind doing something like this to a future rifle for myself.
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Have come across a simular type of back sight I thought it was too allow for windage at long range {any comments}
Feltwad
try this one out:
Maker drilled the hole that is centered. When shooter added holes he incorporated windage adjustments. If he got it right, then the top and bottom holes would be "on" and only the original hole would require sight picture adjustment.
In my mind that straightens the line between the holes.
Still, i'd likely drilled a new leaf (or hired it done), but i'm funny like that. (other ways too ::) )
You know if you remove the bottom hole, the top two don't look so bad.
I do expect to utilize a peep-sight of some sort in the future, when i can't see to use the "V".
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Could be these holes were drilled off and they actually shoot to point of aim....I'm guessing. It is a 12 bore so it may shoot a little odd at distance. I believe the entire rear sight to be original to the gun including the sight leaf.
OR, The guy was sloppy like me and that's just where the holes ended up.
I wouldn't mind doing something like this to a future rifle for myself.
That sight looks like a botched job to me. Just how FAR does anyone shoot a 12 gauge rifle
that windage is needed? I can understand a .451 Rigby with adjustable sights for drift and
maybe windage but this is at 500 or more yards.
Bob Roller
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....... Folding peep sight English ca 1670's breech loading rifle.
Breech loading? Now I'm really confused. Very cool sight, thanks for posting it.
-Ron
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....... Folding peep sight English ca 1670's breech loading rifle.
Breech loading? Now I'm really confused. Very cool sight, thanks for posting it.
-Ron
I have seen a picture of a breech loading wheel lock,an OLD one.It worked by
tipping the breech block to the left and inserting a loaded cartridge that locked
into a slot made for it.It was in essence,a locking lug with a flash hole and fired
by the lock.There might be similar systems fired by the later,easier to make
flintlock but I am certain of the one with the wheel lock.
Bob Roller
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Thanks Bob. I know there were breech loading guns long ago. I was referring to the specific gun in the picture Mike posted. I'm not seeing how that rifle would be loaded from the breech.
-Ron
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Thanks Bob. I know there were breech loading guns long ago. I was referring to the specific gun in the picture Mike posted. I'm not seeing how that rifle would be loaded from the breech.
-Ron
With great patience and effort?
Dan
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Thanks Bob. I know there were breech loading guns long ago. I was referring to the specific gun in the picture Mike posted. I'm not seeing how that rifle would be loaded from the breech.
-Ron
Pics are worth a thousand words. I owned this gun for about a year, bought it locally from the largest gun auction house in the world. Was described as a wall gun with a swivel lug..... ::)
This gun came out of the famous Kieth Niel collection in England in the 1990's. Last I heard it's back in England. This is a really exceptional example of English gun period of the 1670's-80's. I believe James Rogers knows who made it, I don't recall at the moment. You'll notice it's a 1/2 stock and has testicles.... It is published in several books.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/Gunmaker/english%20doglock%20breechloader/071.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/Gunmaker/english%20doglock%20breechloader/052.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/Gunmaker/english%20doglock%20breechloader/065.jpg)
More pictures here.
https://smg.photobucket.com/user/Gunmaker/library/english%20doglock%20breechloader?sort=3&page=1
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The flintlock breech loading rifle in my collection is similar to the one above but the sight is the loading plug and to me is later see images
Feltwad
(https://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j152/Ramrod_2006/100_0458_zps4d2dxofb.jpg) (https://s79.photobucket.com/user/Ramrod_2006/media/100_0458_zps4d2dxofb.jpg.html)
(https://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j152/Ramrod_2006/100_0463_zpswijjriad.jpg) (https://s79.photobucket.com/user/Ramrod_2006/media/100_0463_zpswijjriad.jpg.html)
(https://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j152/Ramrod_2006/100_0452_zpsfcybiodb.jpg) (https://s79.photobucket.com/user/Ramrod_2006/media/100_0452_zpsfcybiodb.jpg.html)
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(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/Gunmaker/english%20doglock%20breechloader/060.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/Gunmaker/english%20doglock%20breechloader/061.jpg)
Folding peep sight English ca 1670's breech loading rifle.
That sight looks perfect to me ::)
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Hi Gents. Sorry for the late reply, I have been away hunting over what is, in New Zealand, a long weekend. My camera is on the blink, but I will get photo's up in short(ish) order.
I do like using the sight. I modeled it on the flip battle sights on the #4 Lee Enfield, and it works a treat with a silver fore sight.