AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Dan on March 07, 2015, 09:26:04 PM
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Would you? Yes or No please.
If yes, what would your aim point be, assuming a broadside shot.
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No!
~Tony
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No.
Dave
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128 to 135gr. round ball vs. elk? - NO
I do know a fellow who shot a bull moose with a .45 TC Hawken using a .440" round ball driven by 80gr. of "powder". The range was approximately 50yards. The moose was allowed to run off and after about 30 minutes, the hunter went after it. The moose was found dead in his bed, 50 yards from where it was shot. This behaviour is common to moose is not chased - an elk might run 1000yards before stopping with such a wound, due perhaps to the 'fright' of the shot.
It is highly unlikely to get within 50yards of a bull elk, unless during the early rut or in an area they are not normally hunted.
Even then, I would not go hunting elk with less than a .50 and then, probably not less than a .54 that was properly loaded & tested for accuracy out to 150yards.
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No way. Never. .54 minimum.
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I would if that was all I had. But I do have a .50 and a .54.
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No.
unless i was putting an otherwise mortally injured animal out of its misery at close range and had nothing else, or was in a life/death struggle for food...
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How close can you get and how good a shot are you????? I read ,, if your questioning it already ,, you have your doubts ,, so, No !
Aiming point ,, in the head/ brain ,,no body or neck shots,,,
and remember,, if it runs off, that only increases the distance you have to recover it !!!
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No thanks
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I agree with the group...answer no!
But I must add: NEVER take head shots! Shoot game animals through the lungs - both if possible. There is too much of a margin for a terrible wound without immediate death, with a head shot. Same goes for the neck...except perhaps worse!!
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Thanks for the replies.
Never hunted elk.
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I agree with the group...answer no!
But I must add: NEVER take head shots! Shoot game animals through the lungs - both if possible. There is too much of a margin for a terrible wound without immediate death, with a head shot. Same goes for the neck...except perhaps worse!!
Hate to be a "downer", but I personally know of two whitetails that suffered such fates. I was hunting with a friend during the second week of Virginia's archery season several years ago. He made a bad shot on a large buck, too far away and walking. The deer crashed off into a large tract of immature pines with the arrow sticking out of either side of its neck and attempts at recovery failed....no blood. The same deer was killed weeks later during gun season, gangrenous, emaciated and still carrying the arrow.
The other was a deer taken during another gun season that earlier was apparently the victim of misguided head shot that removed most of its lower jaw. It was obvious it couldn't eat or drink.
For these reasons I won't attempt head/neck shots. J.D.
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Will a .45 roundball kill an elk? Yes, sometimes. Would I purposely hunt elk with a .45? No.
TC
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whats screwed up is the fact that in colorado a .45cal round ball is illegal during muzzleloading season YET legal during centerfire season :o ::) ??? ??? Not quite sure how that works.
As for using it on an elk. I am sure you could do so with proper max range and shot placement. The eastern forests once held plenty of elk and I doubt it was the indians that wiped them out.
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I took mine with a 54 caliber Great Plains conical at about 60 yds. He went off approximately 100 yds. Hit him thru the lungs.
Flintlock off course
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Great job,Charlie! Any pictures??
~Tony
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That would be like using a twenty two rifle.I am not saying that it won't do the job, but it is far below the margin to insure a good quick kill.
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I agree, but in their infinite wisdom the New Mexico Dept. of Game and Fish says the .45 is legit without conditions. In my not too infinite experience, the infamous .22 RF is, in good hands, a killer. My experience with elk is zilch. On the other hand I've been putting small bullets where they belonged for a good number of years. I suspect the argument is a zero sum game, but will eschew the .45 PRB on elks and Bullwinkle.
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whats screwed up is the fact that in colorado a .45cal round ball is illegal during muzzleloading season YET legal during centerfire season :o ::) ??? ??? Not quite sure how that works.
Huh? 458 Winchester mag and a 460 Weatherby vrs a .45 cal. Round ball?
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This is risky. It's at least approaching political. If it crosses the line, my apologies.
Often we criticize game departments for what some see as screwy game regs vis a vis muzzleloaders and hunting. I don't know about your state, but where I've lived, it's been hunters and shooters AND THEIR ORGANIZATIONS that have lobbied and testified when these regs were being written. We may think roundball and loose powder when we see specific caliber delineations for hunting, but others are thinking saboted jacketed bullets powered by various non traditional propellants. If the development of these regs was politicized, it was done by ostensibly non- or a-political organizations and individuals providing testimony and other input in creating these laws and regulations. In my experience, there were axes ground left, right, and center in the process. Some states did better than others, in my opinion, but where I may think a better job was done, others don't like the outcome.
You can please all of the people some of the time, and some...
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Yeah, along those lines Kermit, one shouldn't really base his caliber selection on game regs IF he is a seasoned VETERAN of the out of doors. Then he is better generally better equipped to make such decisions than the book. The regs are written to guide the novice and the warden as I see it. Outdated laws often stay on books forever and new laws are ... well they do the best they can, bless their hearts.
It's perfectly _legal_ to hunt 'em with a 36 in my state, but that we only have handful of elk and five tags per year. If i ever get drawn for one of those tags, I'll be toting a .54 or larger.
Thankfully most men and women who take to the woods understand the woods and game better than any legislative body.
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Elk responding to a call, I'd feel comfortable with a .54 or larger. A fifty, in my humble opinion would be marginal.
So no.
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I have taken a number of elk within 50 yds and a couple muzzleloading seasons back (not a hunt during rut) passed on a spike bull at 12yds - they are not that hard to get close to, just takes good planning and stalking skills. In AZ you can hunt them with a .22 muzzleloader legally but we know that laws are different than ethics. My life time experience with elk leads me to use a .54 or larger muzzle loader and restrict my range to less than 100 yds. I have not seen an elk killed with a .45 round ball and would wonder if it could penetrate where it collides with a heavy bone. A big bull can soak up some heavy blows and travel long enough to get pretty distant - often showing no sign of being hit.
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I just thought I'd point out that traditional bowhunters, using longbows and recurves, take elk successfully. It doesn't have to be a long range proposition. A .45 PRB is more than sufficient if the ball is accurately placed. All a larger caliber does is give you a greater margin for error in the event of a less than perfect hit. It may also buy you a little more distance although that is determined by your eyesight over open sights as much as anything else.
As for shot placement, the heart is located low in the chest behind the front leg. Your best shot is with the elk quartering slightly away so you clear the shoulder/leg. If the elk is directly broadside, wait until it steps forward with the front leg nearest you and aim for the crease that's revealed.
John
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Archery tackle works by cutting not blunt punching, so it's a bit of an apple/orange thing to compare the two.
Last I heard they use nail guns at the slaughterhouse, saves powder. ;)
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My point was not to compare archery to muzzleloading but to show that it's possible to get close enough to accurately place a ball regardless of size. ;)
John
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Sure you can get close enough to smell 'em, I've lived in western Elk country most a my life, NO bullet will kill an Elk if it's a bad placement. In Washington a poacher killed two cows with a .22 pistol (State now owns that gun) about 15 yard shot. On other hand I watched a "Davy Crockett" shoot a nice bull 5 times with a .300 win. last shot point blank to head as it scrambled back to it's feet from #4 hit. God what a F#$%^ up Last trip with him......45, sure with a 565 gr. long bullet.....Tom
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My point was not to compare archery to muzzleloading but to show that it's possible to get close enough to accurately place a ball regardless of size. ;)
John
Gotcha.
Ton of variables on getting close. But yeah, I have friends (neighbors) who only hunt elk with archery equipment-and are routinely successful on public land (CO).
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John- the chance of hitting a rib or even stronger bone is too high to even contemplate with a .45 in my honest opinion. I would expect a .50, with a decent load, would be much better.
Had to laugh at the suggestion of the 565gr. .45 cal. bullet. A friend of 'ours' hunted just about every year on the special weapons\'s hunt- using a Parker Hale Volunteer rifle with a 475gr. FN bullet - worked splendidly on moose and would also be 'prime' for elk- or anything else - but - a .45 cal. round ball - no thanks.
Heavy elongated bullets in proper rifling twists, make wonderful small calibre big game rifles - of fed correctly.
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any 45 long colt bullet will work as well. A.451 bbl. 1:18 Rot will throw a 565 gr'er to 1000 yd. ;) Tom
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So will a 48" twist - probably, but they'll keyhole all the way.
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I think a .45 round ball would not be a good choice for elk. I shot an elk with a .50 round ball and 90grs. of 3f. He was uphill, about 60 yards from me. The ball hit a rib and traveled up the curve of the rib and took off the very top of the spine. We searched for it the rest of the day and eventually found him still alive the next morning. Daryl is spot on when he questions the .45's ability against large bones.
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Although a .45 prb would be my last choice of the calibers that go up from there, I would use a ball cast from WW if I had to use a .45 on elk. The harder lead would hold up against bone much better and give better penetration. I think a .50 should do quite well and a .54 even better. Now, I've never even hunted elk so take that into consideration.
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Elk and moose a big tough wild animals, Hanshi. I heart shot a young bull moose with a suppository gun. He was facing me, a frontal shot. That moose ran 150 yards at a gallop. Upon opening, it had a fifty cent piece size hole right through the center of his heart. A 45 RB may kill an elk, but it most likely will mean a prolonged search for that animal. I want to "anchor" them.
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Since I would presume that elk season is over for now, You have until this coming Fall to build or otherwise obtain a .62 cal long rifle. My moose rifle is a .62 cal Chambers Edward Marshall. I highly recommend it .
Going after large animals like elk etc with a .45 is IMO the equivalent to fishing for muskie with 4 # test line.
Either poor planning or wishful thinking…or just desperate for meat. If the later, you'll still be better served with a larger bore. I use my .62 rifle or my 10 bore for game larger than deer. The performance on game , compared to a .50 or even a .54 has to be seen to be truly appreciated.
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Depends on several things. If the rifle is accurate and range is 50 yards or less and I wanted an elk would shoot it in the head or behind the ear or under the chin if facing me.
Even a lung shot would likely work if done right and the range not too great.
But it would not be my first choice.
Dan
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On large American game the best bullet weight for a 45 is about 420 gr.
I dislike very heavy bullets for game. Even on Elk I would much rather have a 300 gr than a 500+ grain bullet.
Dan
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No I would not.
That's not to say a 45 round ball could not kill one. It could, but so do 22 Long rifles from time to time.
Many of them shot with a round that is too small die later, and are not brought to bag, or suffer longer than is necessary.
I hunt elk all the time and I have for many many years.
I recommend a round ball of 54 cal as a good starting place. I have a friend who killed 4 of them with hardened balls from a 50 cal, and 3 of the 4 exited the elk. All bulls too.
So if you are a good shot, and a good hunter, perhaps a 50 with HARD balls is ok.
Most of the rifles I build for western Elk hunters are 58 and 62 cal however, and I have not had anyone say they were too small.
54s seem to do well too, with Wheel Weight lead.
Wheel weight metal makes a better killing ball then pure lead. Pure lead is soft enough to turn into a “collar button” on impact at times, and that impends penetration extremely.
If you get the ball clear through your elk’s lungs and out the other side of the hide you’ll have meat.
I believe all 45 caliber "elk rifles" shoot bullets, not balls.
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stormrider51 ,,, keep in mind,as Iam sure you will/are ,,, Fire Power will not make up for poor shooting/shot placement ,,, Hunt ,, get close ,, shoot good and enjoy ,,
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i killed a few with a .54 and 80 grains 3fff
always tryed for a neck shot
dont think it was ever more than 80 yards if that
placement is everything
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A good friend (Bob) killed a nice bull elk with his custom .58 Hawken, some years ago. We camped next to each other at a local rendezvous, and I got to watch him tell his hunting story, and parade his nicely tanned elk hide around, for about half a day. An old timer set up camp next to him late in the afternoon, and soon was hearing the story, and looking at the elk hide. The old boy said after seeing how nice that hide came out, that he as sorry he hadn't saved any from the elk he had killed with his muzzleloader. My buddy Bob asked him how many elk he had killed with his muzzleloader. The old guy thought a minute, and said fourteen. Bob asked him what kind of muzzleloader have had. He said a Dixie Tennessee mountain rifle in .50 cal. Bob asked how many of them he had to track down, or had lost. The old guy said none. He said get close, shoot them through the lungs, and then dig a sandwich out of your pack, and have lunch. The elk will usually just keep grazing until he falls over, and thats when the fun ends. Oh and you won't have time for lunch after the packing out gets started.
Bob never brought his elk hide to rendezvous again.
Hungry Horse
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My Dad killed five over the years. All were taken with a .45 cal flintlock that he built in the style of Jacob Dickert. Of the five elk, three never moved a step. The other two dropped within 20 yards. He never owned a rifle larger than a .45. The day I showed up with a .50 he asked if I was planning to hunt elephant.
Storm
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Although a .45 prb would be my last choice of the calibers that go up from there, I would use a ball cast from WW if I had to use a .45 on elk. The harder lead would hold up against bone much better and give better penetration. I think a .50 should do quite well and a .54 even better. Now, I've never even hunted elk so take that into consideration.
Interesting observation that and consistent with my experience. Some years back i launched many round balls of .31 caliber at hogs from distances of 30 yards or less, mostly less. They were hardened, not the least soft. In the process I found they will penetrate large hogs, and by that I mean in the range of 250# or more, without fail unless they strike a major bone. Major does not include ribs or even such obstructions as a shield. By penetrate I mean thru and thru with enough snap to kill hogs on the other side. On three occasions it led to multiple kills with a single shot.
Were I to pursue this I would likely go beyond WW in hardness, likely by adding a bit of antimony to the mix.
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In KY a muzzleloader must be .50 cal or larger to hunt elk.
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Technical question,, Retorical in nature!!!! IF I am shooting a 50 cal but loading it with a PRB .490 with a 10 patch ,, am I shooting a 50 cal or less,,I know the "Intent" of the law but wondering about the "Letter" of the law...
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A good friend (Bob) killed a nice bull elk with his custom .58 Hawken, some years ago. We camped next to each other at a local rendezvous, and I got to watch him tell his hunting story, and parade his nicely tanned elk hide around, for about half a day. An old timer set up camp next to him late in the afternoon, and soon was hearing the story, and looking at the elk hide. The old boy said after seeing how nice that hide came out, that he as sorry he hadn't saved any from the elk he had killed with his muzzleloader. My buddy Bob asked him how many elk he had killed with his muzzleloader. The old guy thought a minute, and said fourteen. Bob asked him what kind of muzzleloader have had. He said a Dixie Tennessee mountain rifle in .50 cal. Bob asked how many of them he had to track down, or had lost. The old guy said none. He said get close, shoot them through the lungs, and then dig a sandwich out of your pack, and have lunch. The elk will usually just keep grazing until he falls over, and thats when the fun ends. Oh and you won't have time for lunch after the packing out gets started.
Bob never brought his elk hide to rendezvous again.
Hungry Horse
Most will graze till they fall over? Good grief. Did he shoot them in the St Louie Zoo?
Did it not occur to anyone that the "old guy" might have been a BS artist?
Dan
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At this point, I don't have anything further to add that wouldn't get me in trouble with the moderator ???
I know there are always exceptions, but for those of us who actually hunt large game i.e. elk, moose etc with round ball shooting long rifles, it's already very plain to see that a .45 would not be a first or even second choice. Can a .45 round ball kill an elk ? Sure. Some folks win the lottery too, but for the rest of us, real life prevails.
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There is more than one tall tale told herein.
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Technical question,, Retorical in nature!!!! IF I am shooting a 50 cal but loading it with a PRB .490 with a 10 patch ,, am I shooting a 50 cal or less,,I know the "Intent" of the law but wondering about the "Letter" of the law...
Not surprisingly, it will depend on the letter of the law. My own state calls out "muzzle loading rifles .40 caliber or larger" for deer. It specifies the caliber of the rifle, not the size of the ball. Other states, however, do specify a projectile size rather than a rifle caliber. YMMV.
-GB
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First off, that patch and ball combination is too loose and will give you poor accuracy in most cases. Game Wardens live in the real world - don't carry around a micrometer to check whether your assortment of balls may contain a few which are less than full .500". Everywhere I have ever been they would check the caliber stamped on the barrel or look at your cartridge if you were using a non muzzleloading firearm. Besides .490 rounded off to the nearest nominal caliber is .50.
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None of my muzzleloaders have a caliber number stamped on the barrel where you can see it. Not one. ???
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Dan, for your information the old boy I referred to, died of a heart attack, on his sixteenth elk hunt. he died after the lung shot, but before he finished his sandwich ( it didn't mention wether he fell over before the elk or not). His elk hunting prowess was mentioned in his obit.
Hungry Horse
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I would use a 45 on Elk, but perhaps not a PRB - a Lee R.E.A.L. or a conical somewhere in the 245 grain area shot at no more than 50 yards would give me enough confidence.
I hunt Eastern Ontario Whitetails with a 40 cal (PRB) and will hunt them this year with a 38 cal (PRB), so I am definitely a close range finesse hunter who doesn't believe that you need a "magnum" to take larger game.
But you do have to "get close" and pass on all but a perfect broadside shot where you are 110% certain you are going to put the round through both lungs - no "kinda quartering shots", no partially obstructed game.
So if you can go into the woods with that kind of discipline and won't be disappointed if you see a few animals that you would be tempted to shoot at IF you had more firepower, then it really is doable.
But if you "have to get one" I would say minimally a 54 shooting PRB or a 50 shooting at least a ball-ete/PA Conical.
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None of my muzzleloaders have a caliber number stamped on the barrel where you can see it. Not one. ???
Mine neither. My .54 IS stamped .54 but it is a factory rifle.
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For the record a .45 prb is not even legal for deer in Colorado in any season.
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Colorado
Muzzleloader Regulations
Legal Description:
“Muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets, provided the minimum caliber shall be forty (.40) for all big game except elk and moose. The minimum caliber for elk and moose shall be fifty (.50). All muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets from forty (.40) caliber through fifty (.50) caliber must use a bullet of at least 170 grains in weight. All muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets greater than fifty (.50) caliber must use bullets of at least 210 grains in weight.”
a. During the muzzle-loading firearms seasons for deer, elk, pronghorn, bear, and moose only lawful muzzle-loaders and smoothbore muskets may be used by muzzle-loading license holders.
b. During the muzzle-loading firearm seasons for deer, elk, pronghorn, bear, and moose the following additional restrictions apply:
1.Propellent/Powders: The use of pelletized powder systems and smokeless powder are prohibited.
2. Projectiles: Sabots are prohibited. For the purposes of this regulation cloth patches are not sabots.
3. Loading: Firearms must load from the muzzle. Firearms, which can be loaded from the breech, are prohibited.
4. Sights: Any muzzle-loading rifle or smoothbore musket with any sighting device other than open or “iron” sights is prohibited.
5. Electronic or battery-powered devices cannot be incorporated into or attached to the muzzle-loading firearm.
General Muzzleloader Seasons
(Deer) September 14th-22nd and October 12th-20th
(Elk) September 14th-22nd and October 12th-20th
This information is subject to change, for more information visit: http://wildlife.state.co.us/
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Scota 4570 - Would you be so kind as to explain #5 please. I know not of what they speak.
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Daryl,
They might just be referring to laser, holo or red dot type sights, but they may also be including electronic firing devices like were offered by at least one of the makers of those "other types" of muzzleloaders.
Yep I couldn't believe it when I saw it the first time either.....battery operated ignition system on a muzzleloader. A real head shaker.
Enjoy, J.D.
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tryin to turn a muzzleloader into a raygun. tsk tsk tsk. :-\
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Is there anyway to make a .45 round ball weigh 170 grain?
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I wonder what one cast of 24 K Gold would weigh?
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Gold is lighter than lead, plutonium or osmium might make it 180gr. but I wouldn't want to be the castor.
Robby
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Is there anyway to make a .45 round ball weigh 170 grain?
Someone some time ago - thought it was here, maybe not, noted his wife had to double-ball her .40 cal. to meet the ball weight minimum. D-balling was allowed as the projectile weight was increased to 184gr. or there about. Her (or his) groups at 50 yards were in the 2-3" range for multiple 'shots' of multiple balls, each ball from a given load, almost cutting each other.
I think he'd worked up to about 70gr. of 2F for the load. I do not know how it worked. One would have to be VERY careful that both balls were touching and that the bottom ball was on the powder.
HEY- there's a use for those otherwise useless .010" or .012'" patches some people 'are want to use' - use that thin patch on the first ball, seat it, then when a real patch and ball combination is seated down, the looseness of the here-to-for useless patch, will allow the otherwise compressing air to bypass that ball and powder - out the vent or nipple and thus allow the second ball to be seated against the other without the danger of moving back up the bore. The expanding powder gasses of the load will not get past the real patched ball, thus they just might shoot OK. With a try.
I certainly would NOT go after an elk with a .45 that was not a bullet shooter.
A 48" twist is not designed for shooting bullets at the larger, big game. Probably fine for deer - but not trustworthy to give straight line penetration on elk or moose, imho.
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Interesting discussion...as I have only killed one elk in my life I have little to add except that my limited experience would support a "no" to a .45 rd ball for elk. Some friends think a .45 is inadequate for whitetail deer [it is not]. Elk are a lot bigger and tougher than whitetails. I once had a .58 Hawken copy I made with the idea of using it for elk and the like, but I got talked out of it at a Colorado rondy years back and I expect it has taken a few elk by now...a real whomper with a big ball and lots of powder!!!
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54 or more don't rely on just getting close enough for a .45 if you get that close a .54 will do a much better job and you might save a lot of work finding the animal then hauling it from where it finally died.
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The number "5" rule mentioned was designed to eliminate a specific inline that used an electronic ignition instead of percussion caps, or centerfire primers. But also short circuited the electronic sighting systems in the process.
Hungry Horse
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The number "5" rule mentioned was designed to eliminate a specific inline that used an electronic ignition instead of percussion caps, or centerfire primers. But also short circuited the electronic sighting systems in the process.
Hungry Horse
It was fully intended to eliminate other electronics on the gun as well. Same applys to archery gear although they recently made an exception for illuminated nocks and cameras like Go Pro.
It becomes muddier when you read the section on loaded firearms in a motor vehicle
(It is illegal to) "Have a loaded (in the chamber) rifle or shotgun in or on any motor vehicle. Muzzleloading rifles are considered unloaded if the percussion cap or shotshell primer is removed, or if the powder is removed from flashpan. It is illegal for anyone to have a loaded electronic-ignition muzzleloader in or on a motor vehicle unless the chamber is unloaded or the battery is disconnected and removed from its compartment."
But, the above does not address ML only season. It's my guess that number 5 eliminates the electronic ignition even if it is not specifically mentioned.
In Alaska, the minimum ML caliber for big game hunting is .45. Period. Apparently they leave it to the common sense of the hunter. Wonder if anybody ever went after the big bears or a moose with a .45 prb!
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Wonder if anybody ever went after the big bears or a moose with a .45 prb!
Perhaps only once, if they did.
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I always thought gold was was alot denser than lead.
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"(It is illegal to) "Have a loaded (in the chamber) rifle or shotgun in or on any motor vehicle. Muzzleloading rifles are considered unloaded if the percussion cap or shotshell primer is removed, or if the powder is removed from flashpan."
I know it's getting a little off the original topic of .45 PRB for elk, but I had to comment on this common definition of an unloaded flintlock. I'm glad Mike Lee mentioned what it says in the CO game laws because I've always had a problem with this official, legal, government approved and dangerous definition of an unloaded flintlock. It says the same in the Florida game regulations and I suspect it's the same in more states than FL and CO.
A flintlock that has powder and ball in it can fire with no powder in the pan surprisingly easy. Assuming that the lock is a good sparking lock, if the frizzen is closed and the hammer is cocked a shower of sparks bouncing around in an empty pan will happen if the hammer falls. With a decent vent like a White Lightning, the powder is very close to the sparks bouncing around in the pan. With a good shower of sparks, a spark will sometimes enter the vent igniting the powder. I've demonstrated this to new shooters.
Inexperienced or careless flintlock hunters will sometimes pull the cock back to get it out of the way, open the frizzen, and just blow out the powder in the pan. They then close the frizzen, while leaving the gun cocked, and put the gun in their vehicle. As dumb as this action is, it often happens and satisfies the above letter of the law.
I've been teaching new flintlock shooters that they need to take the extra precaution of leaving the frizzen open and fully lowering the cock after brushing all the powder from the pan. Then they can case the gun and put it in their vehicle avoiding the chance of a tragic accident. Okay, now I'll climb down off my stump ;D.
Mole Eyes
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Where I live , in order to be " unloaded " we need to empty the pan, and plug the vent. I use a feather.
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Where I live , in order to be " unloaded " we need to empty the pan, and plug the vent. I use a feather.
Here, the plugged vent is not required, Bob, but plugging the vent would prevent powder granuals entering the pan and then the gun being declared loaded. It's a worthwhile and logical accidental firing or "Charge" prevention measure, for sure.
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I'm not a flint shooter but always wondered about the danger described. How about those leather dealies that go over the frizzen? Would that be a solution?
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The solution to not having an accidental discharge is very simple. Eliminate any potential source /cause of sparks that could enter the touch hole. If the pan is empty, and the cock is lowered, with the frizzen forward, you're pretty much there. In this configuration, a leather cover on the frizzen is not doing anything, really. If you plug the touch hole, on top of all this, you have about as safe a situation as you can hope for with a load in the barrel. I must say; in my 28 years of flintlock use, I have never had an accidental discharge, or any other problem. I personally think that the flintlock system is safer than percussion.
More than once I've witnessed percussion shooters have hammer blow back trouble, hang fires, nipple blow outs, and hang fires . Cap residue on the nipple [ after rooming the cap] was the supposed cause of one accidental discharge during a match.
The gun fired when the hammer was let down on the nipple after the cap had been removed.
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I agree that an object in the vent is good sense and do so myself; as Bob does, I also use a feather. With a feather in the vent, the cock lowered and the frizzen forward you've pretty much made a gun with a charge in it as safe as you can. Like you, Bob, I also don't see a need for a leather shoe over the frizzen if you've done all that.
You all can decide if you want to take these extra steps beyond what the law requires you to do. As for me, I figure the Viet Cong didn't manage to shoot me so why take a chance in doing to myself.
Mole Eyes
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To answer the original question ,,,,,,,, when in doubt ,,,,,,don't.....