AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Skychief on March 16, 2017, 05:50:25 AM
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With all the talk of unsafe barrels and unsafe barrel materials, past and present, here and on other boards, I have a question for this board.
Which manufacturers, past and/or present, should be considered "as safe as can be"?
Appreciate feedback from all, especially any metalurgists, engineers, 'smiths, builders, etc, which should be knowledgeable regarding this.
PT' s welcomed, if need be.
Best regards, Skychief
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I think it is pretty much all a bunch of talk about nothing. There are quite a lot of barrels out there in use from the manufacturers and only a tiny number of them have burst. I would suspect that almost all of them are the result of user error. Manufacturers have a strong interest in making sure that their products don't blow the hands off their customers. It is wise to be suspicious of an unknown barrel, but I would not hesitate to use a barrel from any of the established manufacturers. Metal is always a compromise of different properties. Its like Ford and Chevy. People say that one is great and the other is junk. In reality, they both make good trucks. One good lawsuit can shut down a manufacturer for good. Nobody is going to knowingly put out an unsafe barrel.
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Correctly loaded, all of today's major barrel makers make safe barrels.
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The problem we have in the USA is that there is not a standard set for what a barrel must be manufactured to, either by the government or by the industry itself.
As the result of this we have all of these differences in opinions on what is safe or is not safe.
I have 30 years of experience of doing investigation on manufacturers of hazardous materials cargo tanks. It is my job to make sure that they are built to the USDOT specification for materials used and strength. The standards for HM tankers have been set by the government and also by the ASME, a industry self regulated standard that has been adopted by the USDOT as a good standard.
What safety standard do you as the public expect for tankers that are transporting poisonous or flammable gases?
Barrels made from 12L14 are obviously not an imminent hazard and are not likely to fail "just because".
It is a fact that there are better steels for strength and safety to use for a ML barrel.
It is also a fact that if you make the decision that you want a barrel made from steel that is better suited for a ML barrel other than 12L14 you can do that. To my knowledge there is not a barrel made from 12L14 in my gun safes, that is a choice of mine.
I would not let a 12L14 barrel keep me from buying a kit gun like what is offered here on this list for a smaller cal. rifle. I think that there is a good safety margin for me to consider that. I would never use a 12L14 barrel for shooting my .45 cal. 540 grain bullets at 1300 fps.
Since there is not a set standard it is up to personal choice and what you are willing to buy and what risk you are willing to accept. I am willing to pay more for a barrel made from something other than 12L14 steel.
Like I tell my kids, "Life is full of choices, choose wisely.
Fleener
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I have a dead horse.
Would anyone care to beat it repeatably.
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I have a dead horse.
Would anyone care to beat it repeatably.
I slaughtered that horse last Tuesday, I think it's starting to turn...... ;)
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For Pete's sake the originals were made of wrought iron. That is the modern equivilant of aged cheese. Virtually any reasonable steel is going to be an upgrade. Bill Newton built tradegun barrels out of seamless gas pipe, and I haven't heard of any of his guns blowing up. You just have to fight stupidity ever day, and remember to not fill it full of black powder, or use smokeless powder, or forget to seat the ball. This is pretty easy stuff. I tend to fear anyone that is looking for high end ultra modern barrel steel because it makes me wonder what they plan on loading in it.
Hungry Horse
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I think Mike said it best, use your smarts, load safely, and enjoy. Lucky for us there is a large variety of barrels out there for us to pick from. I think they are all safe.
Greg
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In the gun building section of this forum there was a rather lengthy discussion of barrel steels if you are interested in reading it.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=43037.0 (http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=43037.0)
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Just for the heck of it.
I bought a Traditions kit based on two reasons. One, memory of when I examined a piece of old CVA barrel in the met lab. It appeared to be a nice, ductile annealed low carbon steel, with no added sulfur. For those who are fond of tensile strength, I'd not be surprised to find the tensile strength of this barrel lower than the common American muzzle loading barrel steel. That I am more impressed by ductility you may consider just senility, I suppose. Two, that video by Iraqveteran888, showing a Traditions Kentucky eventually blown by use of a couple smokeless grades. The manner in which it blew had meaning to me.
When I got back into black powder shooting about a decade ago I got a couple of Pedersoli guns. I asked what they used for barrels, they said essentially a heat treated, low sulphur carbon steel. Misplaced the exact italian grade number they gave me, something like A40.
I am told that Ed Rayl uses some grade of 8620 for his barrels. Sounds fine to me. Aerospace quality 8620 bar has the wonderful property of being available, available in small quantities from warehouses. One needn't buy 30 tons of the stuff.
I have no idea how accurately any of these shoot.
I like these barrels because they are all low in sulfur, which means to me they have some amount of ductility across the grain - where it matters.
High ductility also means not such good machineability. For steel to "machine like butter" the steel mill must make it brittle, so the chips are crumbly and short.
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I'll just keep it simple like Mr. Jewler told me. Never double ball. Never put in anything but black powder(before pyrodex) an last no more powder than double the caliber of your RIFLE. Has worked for over 50 year's. So I'll stick to it....Oldtravler
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Keep your fingers away from Pete's mouth - he ain't had nothin' to eat for the last thirteen years but prison food, gopher, and a little greasy horse.
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The replies are appreciated all
Mr Kelly, you may or may not remember but, I bought a Southgate rifle from you years ago. Just wanted to say that I shot it this afternoon. I'm very happy with it an am taking great care of it.
I wondered today about the steel of its barrel. I wonder if it would be deemed "safe" by those in the know. In any case, it's done fine to this point with loads in the 40 grain neighborhood.
I also have rifles with Bill Large barrels. I wonder the same about the material that he built with.
Southgate and Large.......What do you all know of their barrels??????
Much appreciated.
Best regards, Skychief
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Snapper, The last thing we need is the government sticking their nose into muzzle loading any further than it already is. I can already see some "well meaning" beaurocrat trying to ensure that a barrel blow -up "never happens again"' NO THANKS Nathan
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Due to the many shots fired there over the years, I would think the Friendship range would be a good place to ask about barrels failing. Many rifles of unknown quality have been fired there. With that large number of chances for a barrel failure in one spot the ground should be littered with broken stocks and barrels. I'll happily continue shooting my rifles with a reasonable load and properly seated ball.
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Skychief - I may have no memory but my computer, Hal, still does.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi63.tinypic.com%2F16bg3er.jpg&hash=952983caeb78eca45187d9cf5d93540eb38a1e57)
I'm glad you are enjoying that Southgate. I had wanted one since I saw his American Rifleman article in 1952. Cash was not so available then, so I stayed with my Red Ryder. The rifle I sold you in 2011 was just fine but my arms are too short & my left shoulder lacks the strength to hold it.
Yours is No. 507, the Dixie list of serial numbers says it was built in 1959. At that time I believe Southgate was rifling his own barrels using cold-drawn octagonal 1018 steel blanks 48" long, either direct from the mill or from Dixie.
Others on ALR may wish to comment on this.
I told you it was .41 caliber, perhaps because that was what I was told. I wonder, exactly what caliber did you find it to be?
I have made rifles using .50 cal 7/8" cold drawn 1018 from Pa Keeler. That was before I learned that seamless tubing sometimes has a crack down the bore. Never heard of any of these barrels blowing up, which only means I never heard of it. Well, if yours has hung together this long there probably is no crack in it. That 1018 steel, even cold drawn, has pretty good ductility across the grain.
Yeah, I would have, and still would, shoot it if I could hold it.
I recall that Bill Large was most insulted when Muzzle Blasts published my Oct-Nov-Dec 1985 series on barrels. Never heard of any problems with his barrels, the only one I saw had been ringed near the breech for some reason. Personally, with all respect to the late and legendary Mr. Large, I'd not care to use them.
Searched for my 1981 LaSalle Steel Co. data on STRESSPROOF (their 1144) and LA-LED (their 12L14). Data for both is frightening, considering that some people think they can use them to withstand high-impact loading (an explosion is high-impact).
There is an old article in the Single Shot Rifle magazine about an 1144 barrel failing, I think at an extractor cut in the breech. Not such great fatigue resistance (cracks if loaded thousands of times when there is a notch present).
Enjoy No. 507, Mr. Skychief
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The replies are appreciated all
Mr Kelly, you may or may not remember but, I bought a Southgate rifle from you years ago. Just wanted to say that I shot it this afternoon. I'm very happy with it an am taking great care of it.
I wondered today about the steel of its barrel. I wonder if it would be deemed "safe" by those in the know. In any case, it's done fine to this point with loads in the 40 grain neighborhood.
I also have rifles with Bill Large barrels. I wonder the same about the material that he built with.
Southgate and Large.......What do you all know of their barrels??????
Much appreciated.
Best regards, Skychief
I know nothing about the barrels used by Mr,Southgate but worked off and on with
Bill Large for years. He did use 1144 Stressproof for years until he got a bad batch
that wrecked some expensive deep hole drills.He gave me the defective bars and I
used them for lock tumblers with no reported troubles. After that he used a leaded
steel that had an odd name (Tellurium maybe?) For about the last 10 years of his
life he used this material with no blow ups we heard about.There was sadly to say
a drop in his quality and it showed in the finished barrels. Bill and his machinery
were getting worn out and he quit reaming the barrels and simply drilled and
rifled them. This is evident when looking at them,the annular rings of the lands
tell the story. He did make a few barrels from brass and 416 stainless as well.
BILL Large passed away on 23 September 1985 and I got the sad task of writing
his obituary for the NMLRA.
Bob Roller
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That's her Mr. Kelly. ;D. It's actually a 40 caliber. It's not fussy about loads but really shines with a tightly patched .395.
Speaking of barrels, this rifles barrel is so easy on patches compared to any of my other rifles. I can shoot super thin patching with slightly undersized balls with no tearing of said patching. I can't say why, but I have no other rifles like this.
It's a joy to shoot. It'll shoot inch groups at 60 yards easy enough. I think it would shoot tighter if it wore finer sights and I had younger eyes. But, I'll never change out the original sights of this "Tennessee Maid". :)
Thanks for the information, photo, and reply, Skychief
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Mr. Roller, thanks for your reply and information. I may have one of his earlier barrels. It has no J' s in the stamping. I was hoping that Mr Kelly would give Bills barrels a nod.
The barrel I speak of is the most accurate rifle that I own. I found it years ago at a small gunshow in Greene county Indiana. A man named Ingal had built it for over the log matches that were popular then in the Wabash Valley area of Indiana.
If I recall correctly, the 45 caliber is either 7/8" or 1" across the flats. 42".
The rifle has super curly maple and fine double set triggers. The rifle will chew a ragged hole at 60 yards with the load it likes, monotnously.
Thank you again, Skychief
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I dont normally comment on threads discussing barrel steels but my unsolicited thoughts are this. I have been shooting flint an percussion guns since I was a young teen in the mid 70s. I started out shooting 2 old hermit brothers original tenn mt rifles that Im sure was wrought iron barrels then as most on this forum shot T/Cs an lymans an then graduating to customs as soon as I could afford it. In all those yrs I have never ever heard of a barrel blowing AS LONG AS the human error factor didnt creep in. Most I have heard about was by using smokeless which im sure it would be the #1 factor an close behind would be short started. This is a lot of the reason I will not buy a used muzzleloader unless I know the man that has owned it since new. You never know who has shot it 25 times with smokeless or who has double balled it which increases pressure no matter who thinks otherwise. I have quite a few 12L14 barrels made by different makers an I know they are soft barrels but they will not blow up as long as I load them with black powder with normal loads BUT if i throw in some human error either intentional or accidental then it will be wattlebusters fault an not the folks that made the barrel no matter what any bloodthirsty lawyers opinion would be. Some people will do stupid things with muzzleloaders same as with modern guns an no matter what regulation the lawyers try an come up with it all boils down to YOU CANT FIX STUPID so if they are shot with common sense you will be alright an if NOT then there will be blood.
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I dont normally comment on threads discussing barrel steels but my unsolicited thoughts are this. I have been shooting flint an percussion guns since I was a young teen in the mid 70s. I started out shooting 2 old hermit brothers original tenn mt rifles that Im sure was wrought iron barrels then as most on this forum shot T/Cs an lymans an then graduating to customs as soon as I could afford it. In all those yrs I have never ever heard of a barrel blowing AS LONG AS the human error factor didnt creep in. Most I have heard about was by using smokeless which im sure it would be the #1 factor an close behind would be short started. This is a lot of the reason I will not buy a used muzzleloader unless I know the man that has owned it since new. You never know who has shot it 25 times with smokeless or who has double balled it which increases pressure no matter who thinks otherwise. I have quite a few 12L14 barrels made by different makers an I know they are soft barrels but they will not blow up as long as I load them with black powder with normal loads BUT if i throw in some human error either intentional or accidental then it will be wattlebusters fault an not the folks that made the barrel no matter what any bloodthirsty lawyers opinion would be. Some people will do stupid things with muzzleloaders same as with modern guns an no matter what regulation the lawyers try an come up with it all boils down to YOU CANT FIX STUPID so if they are shot with common sense you will be alright an if NOT then there will be blood.
+1 Well, I know nothing about barrel steels and what I do think I know is absolutely WRONG! It's just that the term "soft steel" sounds funny to me. I prefer to say, "mild steel, "brittle steel", "tough steel" and "ductile steel". To me any steel is HARD. For this reason I rely heavily on the knowledgeable people on this forum. I don't know anything about the steels "my" barrels are made from. But be assured that just as wattlebuster said, I know better than to abuse them. I'm not stupid, just ignorant ("ignernt" in Southern).
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I'm just as ignernt as you two guys above. And, like you, respect my guns and try my best to do nothing stupid.
Funny thing to me is that some of the guys that seem to know a great deal about this subject, seem to never say "I think X barrel manufacturer, or X type of steel, is the safest for muzzleloading barrels".
Unless I've missed it somewhere.
Best regards, Skychief
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I have had some barrels that were what I can only call "soft". I literally used a scraper on them to get rid of scratches. Others, seemed to have a "casing" or hard outer layer which was a real pain. When installing sights, and attempting to raise the edge of the filed dovetail, I've had it break. Never had that or any other problems with Getz , or FCI barrels.
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Guys soft is just a term that I used. I guess in the world of barrels 12L14 would be what I call soft. But I know this ahead of time and am fully aware of what will happen if i do something stupid
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Funny thing to me is that some of the guys that seem to know a great deal about this subject, seem to never say "I think X barrel manufacturer, or X type of steel, is the safest for muzzleloading barrels".
I might maybe have circled around it a bit. Thing is, if I say use XYZ steel for your barrel then I am liable if it bursts for whatever reason. This is fact, drummed into me most thoroughly when I worked quite some years at a specialty metals supplier, Rolled Alloys. One may "suggest", or say what others have used for similar applications, but it is a very serious NO-NO to Recommend a metal.
So for a black powder muzzle loader I would Suggest using a steel with decent ductility across the grain, and fairly low carbon.
I am not employed by any barrel maker, and am not intimately familiar with what they do in their shop. I do not know the commercial considerations involved in whatever product line they make.
So no, neither I nor any other competent metallurgist will tell you the barrel maker what to use. You might hire a consultant, who may know where of he speaks, or simply have a scrambled brain. I am too old to want to run around the country consulting. Might be nice to chat informally with whatever experienced modern barrel maker had that consulting job, but not for money.
With respect to grades of steel, perhaps you might consider looking at aerospace quality solid bars, in low carbon grades such as 8620 or 4130. These are available from distributors. Availability is one special quality these grades have, not those specific grades 8620 or 4130, but that they are AVAILABLE, and in aerospace quality, from one or more distributors.
I would suggest you might want to avoid any free machining steels such as 1100 or 1200 series, or for that matter even 416 stainless. I might also suggest you avoid barrels made of seamless tubing, as it sometimes has serious long cracks in it, originating at the bore.
That is all. You know what barrels I like, I have posted it here. Go hire a metallurgist in an appropriate legal manner. Doing precision machining on any decent steel will be different than machining 12L14. I am not a machining expert, though I've been of some help where nickel alloys are concerned. Worst problem I handled included the 3/4" bit wandering out of the piece when deep hole drilling (gun drilling) a slightly softer version of what they had used. And the teeth popped off the milling cutter. Actually that was relatively simple. Feeds, speeds and appropriate cutting oils might be topics of conversation. And cutting tool materials & exact geometry of the cutting edges; if steel, how you sharpen them.
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Thank you Mr. Kelly.
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Question for those who know....Does fire blueing have any adverse affect on a 12L14 or 8620 barrel ?
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Everyone questions material composition. But finish, metal treatment, and inspection are factors too.
Anyone ever mag particle test their barrels? Old timers used to tap the metal with a hammer and hear a good ring, instead of a thus which would be a defect.
Look up hoop stress, assume the barrel is round at the thinnest spot.
Look up stress risers.
Everyone questions their barrel. Does anyone question their powder granulation or formulation?
With a flintlock with a 1/16th flashhole. I do not worry about it. Even with a 13/16ths 45 cal......
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Seat the ball against the powder.
Do not use smokeless powder in your Muzzle loader.
Do not shoot the early Japanese muzzle loaders with the 2 piece barrels
The barrels of today whether 12L14 or ordnance steel are so far superior to yesteryear's barrels there is no comparison.
Carney
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"Shooter error"
Can anyone here honestly say -- I repeat, HONESTLY - that he has never made an error loading a muzzle loader?
Well, true, if you never loaded one then you didn't make an error.
There are a lot of strong statements here made about steel by many without a great deal of knowledge in that area. I know what sulfur does to steel, and especially I know what phosphorus does to steel.
I's sure not a really great metallurgist but since the 1960's a large part of my work has been looking at broken things and trying to figure out why they broke.
It is rarely the metal.
But then, most industrial operations do not make stuff out of steel that has all the toughness of a real good ceramic. Only the muzzle loading guys do this.
Whoever said barrels will continue to be 12L14, I do believe him. At least so far as American muzzle loaders are concerned.
European guns (NOT ASIAN) seem to be made by companies with some knowledge of firearms manufacture.
Me, I give up on you guys but am happy with my nice clean steel Traditions barrel, as well as my somewhat battered Navy Arms Zouave, made I believe in Gardone, Val Trompia Italy.
Pedersoli is just fine but I don't need another gun (yeah, I know "need" has nothing to do with it).
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What is the percentage of sulfur and phosphorus in 12L14 steel as compared to the same percentages in a barrel built by Pedersoli?
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When I explained to the original owner of Shiloh that using 1144 Stressproof for heavy barrels was a bad idea, there was a spirited discussion and the next batch of steel was 4140. The bitching from the guy turning the barrels to their pre-octagonal profile could be hear bitching through out the plant. its a LOT harder to work. Take a chunk of "free machining" steel stick it in a lathe and turn v threads on it. Use a nich big piece about 1.5 dia. Now pull it out of the lathe and put in a little propane forge and heat it to high red and then just let it cool in the forge. Cut threads in the other end. You will get the idea. I doubt that most of the people making ML barrels can cut rifle a blank make of 4140-4150. If they do it may require lapping (virtually a sure thing). Since the average ML buyer is too cheap to pay 400-450 bucks for a barrel they make them of stuff that is cheap, easy to get and cuts like butter.
This is the back story. The usual barrel steel at Shiloh at the time was 1137 GB quality. Which in the barrel wall thicknesses was OK I guess, no known failures other than UNDERLOADS of smokeless. But getting a couple thousand pounds of GB quality steel was at best difficult, the mills sell it at about 100 tons to the lot or at least a furnace melt. So Wolf bought Stressproof.
As I have stated before in the course of the manufacturing a rebate was turned on the heavy blanks to fit the gun drill.
When button rifled a SIGNIFICANT number split from the rebate to the muzzle, gotta love those brittle steels. I looked through the bars in the rack and find the paint code for Stressproff (one of the steels the patent holder specifically should not be used for gun barrels). WFT????
Anyway....
Now lets think about stress risers. Dovetail cuts for sights and such. The RIFLING in the barrel is a stress riser. Love them deep wedding bands. HUGE stress riser. In the steels generally used for ML barrels I bet they all show a bore dimension change at that point.
How much pressure will a steel stand? A lot. Many, many 45ACP 1911 barrels were made of 1018. Far "weaker" than 12L14 by the "book". But the unexplainable FAILURES here are with a STAINLESS steel that is the stainless second cousin to 12L14 and is not recommended for gun barrels.
For example Roy Jenks (S&W) via a friend who conversed with him on the subject, that a S&W 357 cylinder with cartridges OVERLOADED with Bullseye, with cylinder face CLAMPED to a steel plate, all 6 chambers fired at once WILL ONLY BULGE. It does not break.
THIS is the difference in barrel steels.
120 miles east of me is the largest refinery complex north of Oklahoma. I used to shoot matches and one of the competitors was a welder in the refineries. Just for kicks I asked him what grade steel did they use for pipes and such. NUCLEAR GRADE. The process doe doing the welds and the later examination of the welds is both complex and through. They don't want any accidents.....
This is the fact. Even very poorly made iron will stand most loadings with BP. Look at the barrels detailed in "Colonial Frontier Guns". So when ANY modern steel fails with ANY load fired from a FL we have to ask #$!? Remembering that I used to have a Garand barrel my Dad shot with a dirt plug back behind the front sight and it only BULGED. But the ML people thinks OK if the barrel blows and sticks steel fragments in the range overhead with a what everyone thinks is a improper load. Cause barrels never fail, right????
Now lets look at the making of iron for damascus barrels in England the purification they went through to clean the iron. If you poke around the WWW you can find the book "The Gun" by W. Greener (W.W.'s father) it tells all sorts of interesting stuff. Like how they used to like HORSESHOE nail scraps since they could form these into a ball from the furnace and the small pieces let the impurities burn off easily making the iron cleaner. But of course the English put barrels through an energetic proof compared to some places on the continent and they did not want HRH losing a hand if the barrel failed... Very bad for the gun makers reputation.
Dan
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You have to factor in the mindset of black powder shooters back then. More than a few were under the mistaken impression that no matter how big the load black powder cannot hurt modern steel.
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We live in very litigious society. If someone blew up a barrel with anything approaching normal black powder loads, I would expect a lawsuit to have been filed. I have looked on the net, and I can't find a single one. Furthermore, none of our barrel makers could withstand a lawsuit. They wouldn't have to lose in court to be put out of business, because they couldn't even afford to go to court.
I appreciate the metallurgist's knowledge and experience, but what I would like to know is, where are all the blown up 12L14 barrels?
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We live in very litigious society. If someone blew up a barrel with anything approaching normal black powder loads, I would expect a lawsuit to have been filed. I have looked on the net, and I can't find a single one. Furthermore, none of our barrel makers could withstand a lawsuit. They wouldn't have to lose in court to be put out of business, because they couldn't even afford to go to court.
I appreciate the metallurgist's knowledge and experience, but what I would like to know is, where are all the blown up 12L14 barrels?
Jose,
I think that G.R.Douglas carried product liability insurance on their barrel business and it did
include the black powder types. Good thing they did. Jim McLemore makes all of his barrels
from 4150 certified for gun barrels and doesn't worry about a blown up black powder barrel
including the long range types like the Rigby and Henry styles that heave a 500+grain bullet
backed with 85 or more grains of high quality black powder.
Bob Roller
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We live in very litigious society. If someone blew up a barrel with anything approaching normal black powder loads, I would expect a lawsuit to have been filed. I have looked on the net, and I can't find a single one. Furthermore, none of our barrel makers could withstand a lawsuit. They wouldn't have to lose in court to be put out of business, because they couldn't even afford to go to court.
I appreciate the metallurgist's knowledge and experience, but what I would like to know is, where are all the blown up 12L14 barrels?
Exactly, where are all these blown barrels. Probably all are filed under either operator error, operator ignorance or operator stupidity.
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Bob Roller: Thanks. Do you have contact info for Jim McLemore? .....Never mind. I found it. He seems to be out of business.
Crawdad:
Probably all are filed under operator error, operator ignorance or operator stupidity.
And where exactly is that file? Why don’t we see references to this rash of barrel failures in the black powder literature, or posted on the net?
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That file is imaginary Jose, I was trying to be sarcastic.
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Understood. Nuance is often lost in this medium.
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I agree there. You're right, where are all these barrels and their subsequent lawsuits that have supposedly blown.
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Here are some:
1. Rifle Design: Hawken halfstock percussion, built from American made kit.
Barrel Dimensions: .50 caliber, 1” octagon, 32” long
Steel: 12L14
Load: 100 grains black, one round ball
Location, Date: Cherokee, Iowa, September 1979
Injuries: Minor cut on right index finger.
Background: Engaged in rapid fire contest to cut a board in half.
Rifle burst at 7th or 8th shot.
Nature of Failure: Barrel split open 4” back from muzzle into four
long pieces, all hung together. Brittle fracture with
multiple fracture origins on barrel flats. The ball
indented the bore 360° around at the fracture
origin, 9” back from muzzle.
Reference: March 1980, The Buckskin Report.
2. Rifle Design: Custom Built left hand percussion rifle with drum. About $750 in 1977.
Barrel Dimensions: .50 caliber, 1” octagon.
Steel: 12L14, cold drawn octagon, in the as-cold drawn condition.
Load: 80 grains GOEX FFFg black powder, one 370 grain
Maxi-ball lubricated with Crisco, Remington caps.
Location, Date: May 17, 1979, East Carondelet, Illinois.
Injuries: Lost entire thumb, index and middle fingers of
right hand, along with much of the palm.
Here are the remains of the rifle.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi58.tinypic.com%2Fn4w80n.jpg&hash=8332b61d7f6d09cd596fe45b9f8275e899743d68) gun
It would be inappropriate here to show an X-ray of the remnants of the shooter’s hand.
Background: The man had 12 years experience shooting and hunting with muzzle-loading rifles, the first 10 years using original flint and percussion guns. He marked his ramrod to ensure seating the bullet on the powder. This rifle had been fired about 200 times in two years.
he loads used ranged mostly from 40 to 80 grains FFFg, occasionally 120 grains, with round ball.
Rifle was fired about 8 times with 60-80 grains FFFg and a Maxi-ball. The rifle maker had proofed this barrel with 250 grains of black powder and two patched balls.
Nature of Failure: Brittle fracture originating on the bottom flat 10 inches from the breech end. The barrel shattered into several pieces, four of which were found. The breech plug remained in the stock. Metallurgical examination showed cracks in the steel, in the
un-damaged part of the barrel.
3. Rifle Design: American made, bronze frame.
Barrel Dimensions: .50 caliber, 1” octagon 32” long, breech threads 3/4” dia.
Steel: 12L14 cold drawn to octagonal cross-section.
Load: 50 grains FFg black, spit lubricated patched round ball.
Location, Date: Arkansas, 1979.
Injuries: Lost entire left thumb, remaining fingers stiff.
(the man had been a draftsman)
Background: New shooter, just bought the rifle. Had difficulty getting the ball down
the barrel. Rifle burst on third shot.
Nature of Failure: Brittle fracture originating 12-3/8” forward of the breech. Multiple fracture origins on barrel flats. The ball indented the bore 360° around at the point of failure.
Reference: January 1980, The Buckskin Report.
4. Rifle Design: American made, mass produced half stock percussion with patent breech. Barrel Dimensions:.45 caliber, 13/16” octagon barrel with 11/16” Diameter breech threads.
Steel: Cold drawn 1117
Load: 60 grains FFg black powder, patched round ball. Cleaned between shots.
Location, Date: Missouri, March 1979
Injuries: Lost left eye, suffered brain damage, impaired Hearing and balance.
Could no longer perform his job designing Hallmark Cards
Background: Shooter had marked the ramrod to be certain that the ball was seated on the powder, with his 60 grain load. The rifle had been fired a couple hundred times.
Nature of Failure: The entire patent breech and threaded portion of the barrel separated, striking the shooter in the head. The barrel broke in the breech at the foremost thread. The notch at the root of the thread concentrated stresses to about 2-1/2 times normal level, in the thin barrel wall.
Reference: Private communication from John Baird, Editor, The Buckskin Report
5. Rifle Design: Custom built.
Barrel Dimensions: .54 caliber, 1” octagon 32” long.
Steel: (barrel maker normally used cold drawn 1144)
Load: 70 grains, FFg black.
Location, Date: About 1979—80
Injuries: None
Background: Rifle almost new. Witness claims the rifle was properly loaded, that is, the ball was not short started.
Nature of Failure: Barrel bulged 12” from the muzzle.
6. Rifle Design: American made half-stock percussion Hawken style.
Barrel Dimensions: .54 caliber, 1” octagon 32” long.
Steel: cold drawn 1144
Load: 120 grains FFg GOEX black powder, .490” round ball patched with
.016—.018” thick mattress ticking.
Location, Date: New Mexico, about Thanksgiving 1979. Weather about 50°F.
Injuries: None
Background: Shooter cleaned after every shot. Engaged in slow shooting match, barrel cool. Ball was seated on the powder when fired.
Nature of Failure: Bore ringed about 3” forward of the patent breech.
The outside flats bulged 0.005”.
7. Rifle Design: Italian Hawken, but custom fit with American made barrel.
Barrel Dimensions: .54 caliber, 15/16” (?) octagon.
Steel: (barrel maker normally used 12L14 cold drawn to octagon shape)
Load: 120 grains FFFg.
Location, Date: New Mexico
Injuries: None
Background: Shooter had used this load for two years in the rifle.
Nature of Failure: Barrel split from breech to muzzle. Top half of the
barrel blew some 15 feet up in the air.
8. Rifle Design: American made, mass produced half stock percussion, patent breech.
Barrel Dimensions: --
Steel: Unknown
Load: 70 grains FFg black.
Location, Date: About 1979—80
Injuries: None
Background: Rifle almost new. Witness claims rifle was properly loaded.
Nature of Failure: Barrel bulged where ball was seated on the powder.
9. Rifle Design: American made, mass produced Hawken style, percussion patent breech.
Barrel Dimensions: .50 caliber
Steel: Not determined.
Load: 70 grains FFg black powder with maxiball.
Location, Date: Iowa, November 1981.
Injuries: Severe leg injuries.
Background: Shooter age 15. Fired one shot with no problem. Had great difficulty l
loading the second maxiball, and unsure if it were seated on the
powder.
Nature of Failure: Four inches of the breech end of the barrel, including the patent
breech, were completely blown away.
10. Rifle Design: Custom made fullstock flintlock Kentucky.
Barrel Dimensions: .45 caliber. 7/8” octagon 44” long.
Steel: 12L14 cold drawn octagon
Load: 135 grains FFg du Pont black powder, .012” oiled
linen patch. Ball stuck about 18” from the muzzle.
Location, Date: 1975
Injuries: None
Background: Shooter had about 27 years experience. Inadvertently used powder
measure set for 135 grains, more than normal charge. Ball became
stuck when loading in fouled barrel. Shooter attempted to shoot it out.
Nature of Failure: Bore ringed
11. Rifle Design: Custom made
Barrel Dimensions: .45 caliber, 13’16” octagon
Steel (barrel maker normally used 12L14 cold drawn to octagon shape)
Load: 50 grains FFg, one patched .437” round ball
Location, Date: About 1971
Injuries: None
Background: Barrel failed on first shot.
Nature of Failure: Attributed to a flaw in the steel
Reference: December 1972, Muzzle Blasts
February 1987, The Buckskin Report
12. Rifle Design: American mass produced Hawken style, percussion with patent breech.
Barrel Dimensions: .50 caliber octagon
Steel: (possibly 1137Mod Gun Barrel Quality)
Load: FFFg black powder*
Location, Date: Georgia, 1981
Injuries: Left thumb blown away, balance of hand mutilated
Background: --
Nature of Failure: Barrel burst approximately 4 inches forward of the breechplug
face. The front half of the lockplate was blown away. The patent
breech burst in the thin area under the snail, and clean-out screw
blew out. Failure did not begin at any design defect.
*Defendant’s experts insisted that there was some smokeless powder in some of the gun powder examples. Plaintiff s expert, who saw the samples first, found no trace of smokeless. With no agreement among experts, the cause of failure remains speculative.
Speculation by James Kelly: That the plaintiff’’s expert found no trace of smokless only means just that, that he could not find it. My own experience with the Defendant is that they know their business. Also, this failure description fits what I have seen in guns burst using smokeless. In this case I would agree with the Defendant. This is only my personal opinion.
13. Rifle Design: American made, mass produced Hawken style, percussion patent breech.
Barrel Dimensions: .54 caliber, 1” octagon 28” long.
Steel: Maker said to have been using Gun Barrel Quality 1137Mod at this time.
Chemical analysis not performed. Hardness Rockwell B 100 – 102
Load: 110 – 115 grains FFg or FFFg GOEX with patched round ball. The ramrod
was marked to show when the ball was seated on the powder. Rifle had been
fired about 40 – 50 times. When the gun burst it had been loaded with black
powder.
BUT
The shooter had previously fired a few rounds using Unique smokeless powder,
with his measure set for about 50 grains by volume black.
But . . .
(photo not in tinypic)
Location, Date: Indiana, March, 1986
Injuries: Left arm amputated below the elbow, lost the sight of his right eye.
Background: From the fouling and what appeared to be a few grains of FFg black stuck in
the breech I believe this rifle was indeed loaded with black powder on
the occasion when it burst.
Nature of Failure: Barrel, lockplate and stock destroyed. I believe those few shots with Unique so weakened the metal (started cracks), and that is why it finally burst with a black powder load.
13. continued
Bear that in mind. This gem is from an internet auction listing, Aug 2009:
“This is a 50 caliber Hawken cap lock muzzle loader. I bought this rifle in 1973, did a few practice shots in my basement and then took it to a hunting preserve in Tennessee and nailed a big white ram and a Russian boar. I still have them on my wall. I mixed some smokeless powder with the black powder and it sounded like my 30-06 when I fired it. . . This is a very good looking rifle and I haven't used it much but I really enjoyed owning and hunting with it.”
Someone may be in for a surprise, but I chose not to purchase this rifle.
14. Rifle Design: American made, mass produced Hawken style, percussion patent breech.
Barrel Dimensions: .50 caliber 15/16” octagon, 32” long.
Steel: Cold drawn 1117 leaded, stress relieved (but not fully annealed), hardness
Rockwell B88
Load: 60—70 grains, predominantly FFFFg, but FFFg also used, with .45 cal
MaxiBall®.
Location, Date: Near Clarksville, Ohio, December 25, 1981
Injuries: Left hand amputated at the wrist.
Background: This young plumber fired the rifle between 300 and 500 times since its
purchase in 1974. The MaxiBall was said to have been seated on the
powder. The owner generally used FFFFg powder,
stating “If they had four I usually bought it, if not I get the three”
Nature of Failure: Barrel burst into at least four pieces. The brass forend cap was
opened up flat, the steel under-rib broken and torn from barrel, and
the forestock completely splintered near the front end. The
dovetail for the underlug was cut deep, leaving only about 0.084”
thickness of metal over the bore.
15. & 16. Were Ballard rifles with Stressproof barrels, not appropriate here. If you want
them, email me off-line.
17. Rifle Design:
Barrel Dimensions: 13/16” octagon, .45 caliber
Steel: Barrel maker commonly used cold drawn 12L14
Load: 50 grains FFg black powder and one patched .437”
round ball. The ball was seated on the powder.
Location, Date: Midwest, 1972 or earlier
Injuries: None
Background: First shot out of this rifle.
Nature of Failure: Top flat cracked open. Failure attributed to “. . .a
flaw in the metal.”
Reference: Muzzle Blasts September 1972, Proof Testing New Barrels,
Roy Keeler
( do not have this picture in format to include here.
Msssrs. Crawdad & Gordo - I do hope you all appreciate this list.
I don't particularly care to remember these incidents.
I shoot "hands", sort of, with the shooter of #2. He got, I think, a substantial settlement. That particular barrel maker ceased advertising muzzle loading barrels at this time.
When I got the shattered barrel from #3 the pieces had some fibrous reddish brown organic matter smeared on them.
You do not hear about such failures these days because
There is no more John Baird. Nor is anyone going through lawsuits to compile a list
No one wants to hear about them.
This, In My most incredibly Humble Opinion.
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One thing I noticed was the term "cold drawn octagon' or just "cold drawn". All of the barrels I've used are machined oct [ swamped] or machined oct/round . Unless I'm mistaken, the barrel makers [ cottage industries] start with round stock.
Would this not negate the stresses induced by the cold drawn method of production? I'm not a fan of any material being worked cold , either drawing to shape, or button rifling, without the end product being stress relieved . The barrel I just purchased was machined to shape both externally and internally.
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12L14 is brittle.
More precisely, it is liable to behave in a brittle manner when three circumstances are present, and chances are it will behave in a brittle manner if only two out of the three are present.
1. Build up the stress, or load at a high rate of speed.
I believe an explosion qualifies.
2. Presence of a notch of some sort.
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Bob Roller: Thanks. Do you have contact info for Jim McLemore? .....Never mind. I found it. He seems to be out of business.
Crawdad:
Probably all are filed under operator error, operator ignorance or operator stupidity.
And where exactly is that file? Why don’t we see references to this rash of barrel failures in the black powder literature, or posted on the net?
Jim McLemore has been working on some Rigby style barrels so I don't think he's out of
business. I got a call from him recently and his Phone # is 1-219-552-4050. Give it a
try and see what happens.
Bob Roller
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12L14 is brittle.
More precisely, it is liable to behave in a brittle manner when three circumstances are present, and chances are it will behave in a brittle manner if only two out of the three are present.
1. Build up the stress, or load at a high rate of speed.
I believe an explosion qualifies.
2. Presence of a notch of some sort.
Looks like everything I have built is just about to blow.... ???
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Hit some wrong d*** button accidentally.
Again
12L14 may act brittle - "may" means not always. When it does so, the shooter may have serious problems.
12L14 is liable to behave in a brittle manner (i.e., snap or shatter) when three circumstances are present, and chances are it will behave in a brittle manner if only two out of the three are present.
1. Build up the stress, or load at a high rate of speed.
An explosion qualifies.
2. Presence of a notch of some sort. You name it - deep dovetails, breech or drum threads,
seams in the steel, rifling, &c.
(Yes, any steel bar may have a seam. Ya gotta test for them. That is one thing that makes Rifle Barrel Quality steel.)
12L14 can develop long cracks when the hot rolled bar is cold drawn at the mill, down to the fairly precise round stock one buys.
I learned this in the 1970's when I asked Bethlehem Steel labs if they had any toughness data for 12L14.
Because I did not want to blind side the guy, I told him I wanted it because some people made gun barrels out of it.
All I heard on the phone was laughter - his first reply.
Then he gave me the data & said the reason Bethlehem had run the tests was that hot rolled 12L14 tended to crack when cold drawn to round stock.
ALL machining bar is cold drawn to get it round enough to fit in the screw machine's collet.
Your barrel may have been planed octagon, but the bar came into the shop as cold drawn round stock.
One manufacturer used to have that round stock further cold drawn to make a nice neat octagon shape. That Mfg went out of the muzzle loading barrel business for reasons discussed above.
3. The third thing that can lead to brittle failure is low temperature. Steel does not live at 98.6F, your steel barrel's idea of "cold" is not your idea.
For common hot rolled steel, say ASTM A 36, I think that "cold" is somewhere around 32F
For 12L14 "cold" is about 70F.
La Salle Steel used to publish this data, I have one of their books.
How many ways can one say this?
Yes, I do believe you all will continue to use 12L14 barrels.
I will not, thank you.
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Well it took a lot of posts but we finally got JCKelly to give us the entire story.
Thank you Sir, much appreciated.
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After reading all the posts concerning 12L14 barrel material I'm very concerned so I've got to ask a few questions.
1) Is a flintlock with a 12L14 barrel safer to shoot than a caplock with a 12L14 barrel?
2) Is there any published loading data considered to be a "safe" load in a gun with a 12L14 barrel?
3) If 12L14 material is unsafe for gun barrels why is it still being used? (I can not/don't want to believe that a barrel producer or a gun maker would knowingly use unsafe material no matter what the price.)
4) If you have a gun with a barrel made from 12L14 material, will you continue to shoot it?
5) If your answer to number 4 is no, what do you plan to do with it? In other words, are we going to see a big increase in guns for sale at discounted prices?
Percy
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After reading all the posts concerning 12L14 barrel material I'm very concerned so I've got to ask a few questions.
1) Is a flintlock with a 12L14 barrel safer to shoot than a caplock with a 12L14 barrel?
2) Is there any published loading data considered to be a "safe" load in a gun with a 12L14 barrel?
3) If 12L14 material is unsafe for gun barrels why is it still being used? (I can not/don't want to believe that a barrel producer or a gun maker would knowingly use unsafe material no matter what the price.)
4) If you have a gun with a barrel made from 12L14 material, will you continue to shoot it?
5) If your answer to number 4 is no, what do you plan to do with it? In other words, are we going to see a big increase in guns for sale at discounted prices?
Percy
In my opinion....which means nothing......
1) In my opinion, yes.
2) Not that I'm aware of.
3) beats me......
4) yes.
5)No.
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Mr. Kelly
First of all, let me say that I understand the difference between failure via plastic deformation and brittle fracture. Nor would I disagree with your conclusion that there are better gun barrel steels than 12L14.
I also know that there were a number of barrel failures mostly in the 1970’s. But that was nearly 40 years ago, and things seemed to have changed.
However, this statement I do disagree with this statement:
You do not hear about such failures these days because
There is no more John Baird. Nor is anyone going through lawsuits to compile a list
No one wants to hear about them.
Everyone here is very interested in barrel failures, and if normal use failures ever occurred, people would talk about it. Consider recent history, say since 2000. That’s 17 years. I don’t know of any normal use barrel failures since 2000. Do you?
Since 2000, our ALR membership experience encompasses tens of thousands of barrels, and I’d suppose perhaps millions of individual shots fired, with apparently no failures. If normal use failures occur, and I suppose they could, they must be exceedingly rare.
So is 12L14 the best gun barrel steel available? Certainly not. Is it safe for our uses? I would say we have a lot of empirical evidence that 12L14 is adequately safe for black powder.
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I feel safer shooting a 12L14 barrel than driving down the freeway or walking any big city street. I think I will take my chances with my flintguns. An yes I have been called stupid before.
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Notice the dates of these failures. Back then guys were abusing these guns and many had the mind set that black powder cannot burst modern steel no matter how much you pour into it.
Some of you older shooters know exactly what I'm talking about.
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I sure do miss Don Getz. Would have been interesting to hear what he had to say .
Many years ago I decided not to build percussion rifles. My interests leaned to flintlocks, but there was a small voice in my head telling me that having a vent was a lot safer than not having one. I also embraced round balls rather than conicals. After having a maxi ball work itself off the powder charge while hunting, I stopped using them. I have a .54 I built back in the late 90's that has literally thousands of rounds through it. Perhaps I can get it x-rayed one day [ friends with access :) ] and see if there are any signs of impending doom. Anyone done that on a barrel which has seen a lot of use ?
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Notice the dates of these failures. Back then guys were abusing these guns and many had the mind set that black powder cannot burst modern steel no matter how much you pour into it.
Some of you older shooters know exactly what I'm talking about.
There have been others. I used to have a photo supplied by someone on this site but I left it on the PM page and when the site updated it went away at least I can't find it in any of the archives. Guy lost his left hand with a fowler barrel failed at the wedding bands (stress riser).
It was not an old photo and the guy told me he thought by the wedding band cuts it was made by someone who's barrels had "never failed".
Dan
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Many modern CF rifle cartridges have SAAMI pressure levels DOUBLE at least anything that can be made with BP. In excess of 65000 psi for the newer stuff like the various WSSMs and the new Nosler cartridges. BP in closed bomb tests is limited to 100k PSI. I don't think BP regardless of how its loaded in the barrel the projectile spaced to where ever will burst a mil spec 4150 barrel.
THEN back in the old days, perhaps before or just after WW-II some ML shooters decided to blow up a Springfield Rifle Musket barrel. They could not. Loaded till it blew powder out the barrel, no blow. This is a SKELP WELDED IRON BARREL BTW. They could not blow it. So everyone then "knew" it was impossible to blow one with BP. But they still had failures. I suspect, from reports, that they are still happening but its not something people talk about. But of course, since its impossible to blow one up it must be some error by the victim. So the makers are protected by the "handloader defense". Guy screwed up the loading obviously. its worked so far in every case that I have heard of going to court. So the makers have no worries.
Why are barrel makers using 12L14? Lack of skill and/or experience I suppose is part of it, the 41xx series steels are very difficult to machine, expensive and harder to come by. There are people who can make cut rifled ML barrels from 4150 that are as perfect as any I ever saw or checked. So I don't know why others can't or won't. I had one get really POed when I told him I could furnish GB quality steel.... But then I could ask why the breeching on so many "breeched" barrels is so sloppy too.....
Anyone ever pull a breech plug and REALLY look? Probably not. The people I know who have were disappointed and not well pleased...... Just more "workmanship" foisted on the uninformed. People should trust by verify, especially before inletting a barrel and tang.
Pressure Info?
Check page 22 for the beginning of PSI with a transducer) data for modern CF rifle cartridges in this PDF http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/206.pdf
Its all industry standard stuff. Some of the peak pressures might surprise you.
Dan
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Since the creation of Youtube, there have been a number of people who have recorded their attempts to blow up a number of things.
A quick Google search on 'blown rifle barrels' also brings up a number of images. ;)
Cheers,
Smoketown
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Realizing there are many things that can affect pressure (like flintlock v. percussion), but does anyone know what would be the approximate pressure range for a patched round ball in a rifle ahead of a typical powder charge? Just as an example, 80 grains of ffg behind a .495 round ball. This may be too general of a question, but it would be good to know.
Mole Eyes
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Realizing there are many things that can affect pressure (like flintlock v. percussion), but does anyone know what would be the approximate pressure range for a patched round ball in a rifle ahead of a typical powder charge? Just as an example, 80 grains of ffg behind a .495 round ball. This may be too general of a question, but it would be good to know.
Mole Eyes
Lyman did pressure tests long ago and published them in their Blackpowder Manual. ALL are FAR below the tensile rating of any steel.
Then we have Col Hanger telling us that he was shooting 1/2 ball weight of powder through an American rifle without the slightest recoil in the 1770s. So apparently this was not dangerous in the, supposedly, weaker iron barrels. This tells us that heavy loads are not a modern invention. Not to mention British officers being killed at ranges to 300 yards tells me it is unlikely they were shooting loads making less the 1700-1900 fps. The wounds sometimes described by British officers in their journals and letters also indicate high velocity.
I would also point out that its not the pressure so much but the speed with which it applied that can burst barrels. Ductile barrels are far less susceptible to this than brittle barrels. If the pressure rise in rapid enough, in the modern world this is most often seen when light charges of grey powder related to capacity are used. However, BP being a surface burning propellant is not "fast" in the way that a modern grey powder like Bullseye is in relation to something like 4831 or as any grey powder can be if the powder "flashes over" a too light charge in a cartridge case. While BP increases in burn rate according to the surface area of the charge and has characteristics of both a "fast" powder and a slow powder switching a load from FF to FFF (which has about double the surface area) does not double the pressure or "detonate" it is thought happens with some grey powder "events", it does still increase the strain on the barrel to some extent through the faster pressure rise. However, in a rifle shooting a patched round ball the projectile moves away from the powder before the charge is completely consumed which tends to reduce the initial pressure. The same is true of bullet guns as well but the inertia is much greater. Though in the "The Gun and Its Development" by W.W. Greener there is a photo of a English SS sporting rifle burst by "fine grained foreign powder". The barrel shows a classic brittle fracture with no significant deformation which tells me it was more material related than caused by fine grained powder. The barrel broke much like the fragmentation seen with grey powder "detonation" events. Though I have a friend who reported pressure signs in a small capacity 35 caliber BPCR when he tried to get the velocity up with FFFF using relatively heavy bullets.
Back in the day there was a propellant powder granulation called "Revolver" it was used in foil and paper cartridges for percussion revolvers and carried over at least until the smokeless era. It was very fine grained like Swiss FFFF or perhaps even "Null B". I know it was used in late BP era small self contained revolver cartridges. It obviously did not blow up revolvers and the 38 S&W load I pulled only had about 1/2-2/3 of the powder space filled.
Smokeless? I have read, but cannot cite the source, that in South America there were ML shotguns designed to the used with smokeless. The problem here in my mind is ignition. Grey powder is very hard to "light" compared to black and under ignition of the charge is a MAJOR concern in avoiding pressure events with this powder. In the WW-I era the primers all had their compound volumes doubled as people started to reload with grey powder and under ignition was a treat to safety.
We can bandy about pressure levels all we want but some research into BP pressures detailed in the 19th and 20th c. show that its just not possible to generate a pressure level high enough to burst a modern barrel steel barrel with BP. AND "modern" barrel steel alloys have been in use for over 100 years in the "real" world. But ALL of these are more difficult to cut grooves in than a cold rolled free machining steel. Iron, iron alloy lower carbon than 1010 steel, even when compared to 1010-1018 is very "weak" yet it was the preferred material for American military muskets and rifles until circa 1869+- a few years even though its lower "yield" numbers are getting close to or match the PSI generated by BP, with heavy loads and long in relation to the bore bullets. If we compare hot rolled 1018 to cold rolled 1018 you will find that the cold rolled is much stronger on paper but when exposed to internal pressure its WEAKER than the hot rolled since its made BRITTLE by the cold rolling process and brittle steels are less resistant to internal pressure. The hot rolled material is harder to machine than 1010-1012 alloys due to the increased carbon, 1018 cold rolled is easier to machine because its brittle. It wears tools faster as well and produces a rougher finish and when grooves are cut may require more time and perhaps even different cutting edges than free machining steels. 12L14 and similar with the high levels of lead and other lubricant metals are specifically designed to machine easy but have very poor tolerance to internal pressure due to inclusions caused by the lubricant metals and cold rolling induced cracks. Remember the old blacksmith admonitions against cold working iron and steel? This produces FLAWS in the material.
When people don't want to listen to metallurgists who have looked into the problem or those that have read the research or consider the written statements by STEEL MAKERS its hard to make any headway.
Forgive any typos I have things to do....
Dan
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If you notice that ll of the court case witnesses stated that the rifle was correctly loaded prior to the time of the burst. What is not stated, as it could not be allowed in court is, was the barrel correctly loaded during its entire life?
Would not an incorrectly loaded barrel first incur stress then develop fatigue and then exhaustion to a point it burst? Or does the barrel just let go all of a sudden?
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It seems to me that we fall into three groups:
1. People who think 12L14 is fine for black powder barrels
2. People who will use 12L14 barrels, but appreciate the steel’s shortcomings and would buy better barrels if they were available.
3. People who won’t use 12L14 barrels at all.
I fall into the second group. My opinion, based on available data, is that 12L14 is safe for normal use, but could fail by brittle fracture if the gun is misloaded, or some other bad thing happens. When I engineer things, I always try to look at the worst case, and design a device that will not fail catastrophically if things go wrong.
Double loads and short started balls are common enough that these things should be considered to be expected use errors. Gun barrels should be designed and tested to withstand common misuse.
Furthermore, steel is not completely uniform, and flaws occur. As Dan can attest, individual barrels need to be subjected to quality control testing, even with “certified gun barrel steel”. I have no reason to believe that current barrel manufacturers do any testing at all.
So, what to do? Those of us who want better barrels need to convince barrel manufacturers that there is a market for more expensive, but better gun barrels. Otherwise, nothing will change.
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I guess we could all buy foreign ML barrels that have proof marks. Or send our barrels to England for proofing.
TC
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If you notice that ll of the court case witnesses stated that the rifle was correctly loaded prior to the time of the burst. What is not stated, as it could not be allowed in court is, was the barrel correctly loaded during its entire life?
Would not an incorrectly loaded barrel first incur stress then develop fatigue and then exhaustion to a point it burst? Or does the barrel just let go all of a sudden?
When a unsuitable steel is used the loading is not all that relevant. Look at the pressures involved and the strength of the steels. Supposed strengths.
I have 45 caliber Douglas bullet blank in the shop, 4140. I could turn it and cut it octagonal with fairly thin walls, if I wanted to waste a few hours. But its not worth my time to prove something I am already confidant of for a group who would not care anyway. After all I have seen photos of acDouglas ML barrel that withstood a stuck ball that the owner got POed about and shot it out. But I don't know if this barrel was made before or after the Douglas blow ups. If after it may have been stress relieved which would have made it less brittle. later Douglas barrels did have a scale much like a hot rolled bar has. Don King used to "pickle" them to remove it since they were really hard on files, the scale being at hard or harder than the file. But maybe it was a "good" bar of 12L14 and the barrels that failed came from the same flawed bar or perhaps bars from the same lot? We will not find out at this date.
All we know for certainis that the steel company that developed "fatigue proof" ::) ::) stated it was not suitable for gun barrels back when this was a hot issue in the old Buckskin Report.
Dan
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Somewhere in this thread someone asked why there were no reports of blown barrels.
The only magazine that published these to any extent was The Buckskin Report. Things like this drive off advertisers. Telling the truth about this an other things broke the magazine. So don't expect to see this in Muzzle Blasts or the American Rifleman or Muzzleloader. When SAKO had a rash of failures, with factory ammo, from using free machining stainless in modern high power barrels I don't recall any reports of the accidents or the injuries in any publication. You MIGHT see an ad by the maker telling people of a recall. SAKO recalled claiming they got a bad lot of steel. If ti was free machining it certainly was "bad". There were no writeups of the Remington shotgun barrel failures either and people WERE hurt and Reminton lost a lot of money. Anyone see any reports in any gun magazines? I saw photos of a Remington SS M700 that split from muzzle back about 10 inches on the WWW. If course everyone said it must have had mud in the barrel ::)
In general its not something you see. I have been told that S&W has a ROOM full of blown revolvers, almost all with underloads. But I have never seen a write up on this either. Unless it was to rightly (in this case) blame the handloader and I don't recall seeing this.
Handloading lets ALL makers off the hook. This includes every load fired in a ML. So they are safe. The jury will look at the tensile numbers and think it must be OK since BP will not get close to this. And "everybody" knows they will fail if loaded wrong.....
Dan
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Yes, but 12L14 steel has been used to make a lot for barrels. Correct?
Do we see all sorts of barrels exploding? No.
That, in itself, needs to be explained.
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Dan, we are way past the days when we had to rely on magazines for information. I believe that any ALR member who had a barrel blow would say something about it. Other people who visit other sites would as well, and word would get around. There is just no way to keep something like that secret anymore.
Considering ALR alone, we have over 3,000 members using this site. If you counted in the people we know and shoot with, ALR has direct access to perhaps 10,000 or 20,000 active shooters, or maybe even more.
I think the reason that we don't see any recent reports of 12L14 barrels failing is because they are working well under normal circumstances.
That said, I would buy better barrels if I could get them.
Standing Bear - You can do the same proof test yourself if you want to.
My personal opinion is that proof marks are meaningless with modern barrels. Why I think that requires a long explanation that we could take up in another thread.
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Remember the old timers were welding up wrought iron barrels, no x-ray machines, no science as we now know it. They trusted their skill and knew what their barrels would do. I'm as comfortable shooting a 12L14 barrel as any other. Been shooting one for 38 years with no issues. This includes doing stupid stuff like short starting and double charging.
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If 12L14 is easy on tooling and easy to machine......just how long of a back log and how much would a barrel cost made of a better steel????
Right now $250-300 and 6-12 months is a ballpark figure... couldn't imagine what good barrels would cost...or how much longer the wait would be.
If better steel is hard to machine how come millions of barrels are made from it every year at a lower cost?? That's a fact I have trouble making sense of.
Till this site, I had no idea about the subject.
Like was said, just on this site alone...if we have 3,000 active members we probably have 10,000+ barrels we shoot regularly..just our active members and guns being fired.
But also like was said, it'd be peace of mind to have something that didn't cause concern. Dovetail a hair too deep...double loads etc are accidents that "happen".
My biggest concern now is buying a used muzzleloader. I know what mine have been subjected to. Buying a used one, you don't know.
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This thread really caught my attention as I seldom gave a thought as to what grade of steel went into the barrels I shoot. I know little of gun barrel metallurgy but have always been careful when it came to loading.
It sort of begs the question at this point; what affect does barrel thickness/weight have on the safety of of BP barrels? ML barrels are quite heavy compared with smokeless tubes; and the swamped barrels have various weights "suitable" to caliber. Does more steel translate to stronger barrels; even those made from "inferior" steel?
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I am no longer either a very active shooter or builder.
So my own solution is I am s-l-o-w-l-y re-working a Traditions "Kentucky" into something resembling an Indian-used Leman.
Considering that the Italians and the Spanish are both able to make barrels of a ductile steel, damnifino why it's not done here. Inertia, I'd guess.
In My Own Humble Opinion- Please-Do-Not-Sue-Me-When-You-Kill-Yourself-Anyway, a muzzle loading rifle needs a ductile steel, more or less like a good (NOT Remington) modern shotgun barrel. Good quality bar stock is available from distributors in modest quantities. Examples might be 4130 (--30, not 4140 or 4150) and 8620. These grades are commonly used in aerospace and custom frame jobs for things on wheels. Ed Rayle, whom I do not know, is said to use 8620. I have no idea why he chose this grade, but I do applaud his choice.
More metallurgy - thick 12L14 is not better than thin. A Fracture Toughness expert, which I am not, might even say thicker is worse. You cannot X-ray, magnetic particle inspect, proof test or Voodoo this stuff into something that can reliably withstand an explosion.
The last rifle I built, back in Model T days I think, was in Golden Age Kentucky style with pierced, engraved patchbox and raised carving. Actually it was a pretty horrid job, compared to what I see on this site. I used a .45 caliber 7/8" Douglas barrel. At the time Douglas said to cut of a couple inches from the muzzle of the barrels they sold. So I had a piece. Being a curious metallurgist - wonder what they meant by calling it a "...manganese steel"? I examined my left over piece under the microscope, said to myself $@##!!&^%* this just can not be what I think it is. Can it? Bootlegged a fairly complete chemical analysis from a lab with whom I had good experience. Yeah. It was 12L14.
Stopped shooting muzzle loaders then, early 1980's. The only thing that got me back into it was a Pedersoli trade gun, with a heat-treated, low sulfur medium carbon steel barrel. Being a picky individual I find I really do like a rear sight and some twisty grooves in the bore. Passed that gun on to a better home.
My own rifle is in the basement now with breechplug removed whilst I ponder what decent barrel might be available? I have kept up with reasonably current barrel failures, some in-line &c. At this point I do not care to use a barrel of anyone's free-machining steel of any grade, no matter how it is certified. Hate to cut my long rifle thing down for one of those ~32" Spanish barrels. Doanno if a 7/8 x 42" can be had from Rayle.
Y'all don't much care for what I have to say about the barrel on your truly artistic flint rifle. Neither did I, when I found out how mine was made, and how that maker's barrels had performed for others (changing their careers, one might say). At the time they were almost the only game in town. Guy named Paris in Pennsylvania did make swamped barrels, believe he sold his shop to the late Mr. Getz. Who, by the way, I did respect although we had some disagreement about metals.
So you do have my sympathy.
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Doanno if a 7/8 x 42" can be had from Rayle.
Rayle can make pretty much anything, I think. He can certainly make a straight barrel of that size.
Edited to add:
Examples might be 4130 (--30, not 4140 or 4150) and 8620.
I was under the impression that 4150 GBQ was the standard by which all other steels are judged.
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5-10-17
JC Kelly,
How would you rate 1117L stress relieved or 1137L with respect to the best steel for black powder rifle barrels. I am assuming that 8620 or 4130 are acceptable steels to use for black powder as per your previous comments.
Best Regards,
Robert T Adams
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Have been following the discussion in barrel steel for years, something I haven’t seen mentioned lately mentioned that lead in the alloy has been replace with sulfur. Lead is supposed have far less problems. I worked in a steel mill for fifteen years retired about ten years ago. When I enquired about led in alloys was told the stopped using it years ago. I wish I had spent more of my break time in the lab. Pore guy upstairs in an old brick building all by himself with little to do except run samples from the melt shop now and then.
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Elnathan - 4150 rifle barrel quality is a great choice for machine guns.
Muzzle loaders do not, in my opinion, need such a hard, wear resistant steel.
Muzzle loaders, again in my opinion, do need a DUCTILE steel. They are apt to be fired with considerable air space between powder & ball. Yes, we all know to mark our ramrods but then, who has never been distracted while loading with his short starter? Or maybe left who knows what air space?
I do not know why this happens but I do know that an air space between powder and ball has been known to cause problems for some time now. That English artillery expert, forget his name, wrote a nice article on Brown Bess muskets blowing up for this reason, about 1760 in Proceedings of the Royal Society. I read it about 1965 in Philadelphia, but have no access to Proc Roy Soc locally.
Anyway, Banish Thee the term "tensile strength" from thy vocabulary.
What matters in your muzzle loader is enough ductility that the thing will bulge, rather than shatter, when something Bad happens.
As we are all subject to human error, and explosives do very surprizing things on occasion, Bad Things are a'gonna happen.
Just a side note. In the chemical industry occasionally one wishes to make a large strong vessel, for which some grade of carbon steel would suit. Except steel would rust away in the concoction they are producing. So, make the whole thing out of Hastelloy C-276 (Cr Ni Mo &c) which co$t$.
Solution - clad a plate of Hastelloy onto your steel. Steel makes the vessel strong, Hastelloy will survive the nasty chemicals inside.
Decades ago Lukens Steel did this by hot rolling the two plates together, so they stuck.
Now they use "explosive cladding". One lays one plate down on the very flat ground, lays the second plate on top. A little wooden fence is built around the edges so one may put a nice layer of ammonium nitrate and fuel oil on top. With a cap, maybe several caps - At One End. Fire the thing, BOOM Now you have clad plate, might need to flatten it out a bit.
Except every once in a long while, for reasons no one has chosen to explain to me, the explosive wave sorta gets ahead of itself, travels along the plate and bounces off that weak little wooden fence. When that wave comes back to meet the main one, well, BOOOOM Now you have a bunch of pieces to pick up. Bye, bye plate.
I have yet to meet or read about the human being who knows why this happens. There may well be several different reasons, black powder acts one way, smokeless another, ammonium nitrate & fuel oil a third, or maybe they all have several ways of causing trouble.
All I do know is that explosives occasionally behave in ways we'd prefer to think they do not.
If it happens in that tube you are holding, better hope the steel is ductile enough to stretch a bit rather than crack into pieces. Along with the odd body part.
No, tensile strength is not the most important thing. Strictly speaking something called "Fracture Toughness" is what matters. That is a bit esoteric for me, let us just say you need ductility as measured in a tensile test. More importantly, good resistance to snapping when struck suddenly in the presence of a notch.
I will not knowingly use any free machining steel barrel. Yes, I have in the past. This whole discussion has inspired me to re-educate myself a bit.
Ya wonder why you've not heard of a few thousand modern barrels failing? Read Hatcher's Notebook Yes, actually read it.
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Elnathan - 4150 rifle barrel quality is a great choice for machine guns.
Muzzle loaders do not, in my opinion, need such a hard, wear resistant steel.
Muzzle loaders, again in my opinion, do need a DUCTILE steel. They are apt to be fired with considerable air space between powder & ball. Yes, we all know to mark our ramrods but then, who has never been distracted while loading with his short starter? Or maybe left who knows what air space?
Just to clarify, are you saying that 4150 is unsuitable for muzzleloaders, or that it is just overkill?
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Don't know about everybody else. But me thinks we've beat this subject to death. No matter what a barrels made of now. You can't rule out the idiot that doesn't know what there doing or is just careless. Just my 2 Cents. Oldtravler
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I'm not so sure, Old Traveler. For one thing there seem to be two separate issues under discussion.
1) The Probability of failure: Is X steel strong enough that it will not fail under normal use (and do we count certain common loading errors as "normal use?")
2) The Mode of failure: If it does fail, does it fail catastrophically or in a safe(r) manner?
Those are two separate questions, at least from an end-user perspective.
Incidentally,I note that the discussion has moved from 12L14 to ANY free machining steel, including the 1137MOD that Green Mountain makes its barrels from. It sounds like Jim McLemore's 4150, while not a free-machining steel, may also be open to criticism.
I'm already convinced that 12L14 isn't a good choice. I do have a GM swamped barrel on hand, though, and I'd like to use it, so the discussion of 1137MOD is intensely interesting to me. Since GM has been touted by others here as an alternative to 12L14 barrels I imagine it would of interest to others as well.
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5-12-17
JC Kelly,
I posted the following on 5-10-17:
"How would you rate 1117L stress relieved or 1137L with respect to the best steel for black powder rifle barrels. I am assuming that 8620 or 4130 are acceptable steels to use for black powder as per your previous comments."
Your comments, after the above request, have not been specifically addressed to my understanding. Would you care to make any comments with regard to my questions?
Best Regards,
Robert T Adams
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As a serious black powder shooter for fifty some years. Have used Douglas, Getz, green mountain, Coleraine, Carlie Burton barrels to name a few. Never ever had a problem with any of them. Some of these guns we're made in the sixties an before. My point is you load it right an don't over charge. You shouldn't have any worries. Oldtravler
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Over the last 30 years I have probably witnessed at least 1/2 dozen ram rods fired down range with no ill effects. Then there were the 3 bulged barrels as a result of shooters firing a short started ball. Many of these incidents occurred while the shooters were firing the Italian "Hawken's " or CVA rifles popular at that time. The barrels must have some degree of ductility in order to produce a "walnut" sized bulge rather than a fracture ?
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If 12L14 is easy on tooling and easy to machine......just how long of a back log and how much would a barrel cost made of a better steel????
Right now $250-300 and 6-12 months is a ballpark figure... couldn't imagine what good barrels would cost...or how much longer the wait would be.
If better steel is hard to machine how come millions of barrels are made from it every year at a lower cost?? That's a fact I have trouble making sense of.
Till this site, I had no idea about the subject.
Like was said, just on this site alone...if we have 3,000 active members we probably have 10,000+ barrels we shoot regularly..just our active members and guns being fired.
But also like was said, it'd be peace of mind to have something that didn't cause concern. Dovetail a hair too deep...double loads etc are accidents that "happen".
My biggest concern now is buying a used muzzleloader. I know what mine have been subjected to. Buying a used one, you don't know.
$300.00 will get you a modern barrel made of stainless, less for the same barrel in chrome-moly (4140) from PacNor - contoured, but not octagonal. Does that make you wonder why 12L14 barrels cost $250.00 to $300.00? Does me.
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Exactly my point Daryl. Millions each year.
That's my only guess. Supply/demand type thing. There are a handful of actual manufacturers for black powder barrels...Rice and Colerain..maybe FCI can go in that group...then A few smaller manufacturers making more custom stuff. Rayle, Hoyt etc
Not a whole lot of suppliers. But not a whole lot of demand either.
I don't know. Leaves a question though. Not bashing the barrel manufacturers. I'm not sure THEY are to blame. But then again, noone has answered WHY they choose the steel they do.
Anyone know what Hoyt makes barrels from? Bottom of mine is stamped 1154. I thought maybe that was the steel but I don't think 1154 is a steel...it's a 54cal. I don't know what the 11 stands for..but it's stamped as 1 number. And also stamped 54cal elsewhere.
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Hoyt uses 12L14 for muzzleloader barrels, though he will use 86L20 (not 8620) if you ask nicely.
The price of muzzleloader barrels is an economy of scale thing, I think. A big manufacturer can have several machines of the same type running at the same time, can make several hundred barrels of the same caliber/contour at a time without having to reset the machine (if they ever do), etc. A small shop running only a dozen of a particular caliber and contour has to spend a much greater percentage of working hours setting up and tearing down tooling, and the lack of space and limited machinery means that bottlenecks are harder to work around.
For example, I think that part of the reluctance to abandon 12L14 is due to the fact that it can be bored several times faster than, say, 4150. Switching over to 4150 would dramatically slow production - an example of a bottleneck I was talking about. The solution, I suspect, would be to increase the number of boring machines, but that requires a significantly greater investment in money and space, something that may not be available. On top of that, modern barrels are significantly shorter than muzzleloading barrels (half the time to bore).
Then there is the problem of getting certified gunbarrel steel in small quantities...
I don't think that muzzleloading barrels are overpriced, though the wait time is frustrating in some cases. I do think that these problems can be licked IF there is sufficient motivation to do so - Jim McLemore can apparently acquire GBQ 4150, Rayl uses 8620, Burton can make smoothbore barrels out of 8620 if asked (though not rifled octagon barrels), and Rice advertises bullet barrels in 4140.
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As a serious black powder shooter for fifty some years. Have used Douglas, Getz, green mountain, Coleraine, Carlie Burton barrels to name a few. Never ever had a problem with any of them. Some of these guns we're made in the sixties an before. My point is you load it right an don't over charge. You shouldn't have any worries. Oldtravler
I never heard of a NEW barrel blowing up until the advent of knuckleheads
that want to pour half of a full horn of powder down a gun barrel.
When I was about 15 years old I had a drum blow out of an antique barrel
that left my ears ringing for a while.Youthful ignorance and a bad gun was
the cause of that episode.
At Friendship in 1968,just before the first 130 yard Hawken match there were
two young men with a production muzzle loader of 58 caliber that were firing
180 grains of 3fg and Bill Large and I decided to get away from that pair.
I had a 58 caliber caplock that I shot 65 grains of 3fg in and it won matches.
It was the first barrel Bill made after he got his shop running. He gave it to me
and said he wasn't sure if it was any good or not.
What about the use of BP substitutes in large loads? Has anyone ever tested
barrels of any kind with this stuff to see what holds and what blows??
I don't have any of these powders and maybe some tests can be made.
Bob Roller
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When one gets into a discussion which is best, 8620, 4130 or 4150, one has reached a point where some intelligent barrel experience is needed. There are many technically good choices for a muzzle loading barrel. It does come down to exactly what is actually available. And then, well, gentlemen, what is the best brand of aged whiskey?
I have two rifles with Green Mountain barrels. Although I can't find it on their website, i have heard they use 1137MOD. I do not know what that "MOD" is, but surely it is a modification with less sulfur. Regular 1137 from some warehouse supply is not so ductile.
Over the last year or so I have revisited the subject of blown barrels, using stuff from the web. Most are illustrations of failed barrels in firearms other than side-lock muzzle loaders. The ones that split are resulfurized steel. They split because the sulfur is present as long strings - hopefully tiny - of manganese sulfide. This manganese sulfide makes the steel easier to machine, also gives it a "grain" somewhat like wood. As a very, very rough analogy, consider cross-cut vs rip saw. So the barrel, including many modern rifle barrels, is not so ductile in the cross-grain direction as it is in the long direction. "Stainless" is a rather general term, sometimes it means "416". This is a re-sulfurized stainless, and even then there is more than one variety of "416".
Sulfur as an addition to improve machinability has been around a lot longer than I have, at least well back into the 1930's or earlier.
As far as 12L14 is concerned. it gets really superb machinability because it has a phosphorus addition. Phosphorus dissolves in the steel, one cannot see it under the microscope. Phosphorus improves machinability because it makes steel Brittle. The chips are nice and crumbly, short. Not them there nasty long curls one gets when machining, say, 1018.
I think, not positive but pretty sure, the steel mills could not even make steel this brittle a steel until World War Two put great demands on productivity. 12L14 is truly a wonderful steel for making a lot of parts quickly. In Ancient Times I recall Black & Decker made drill chucks of the stuff, then case hardened them. Worked in the lab then, and I got a box full of broken parts every Wednesday to examine. I never saw a broken chuck. No doubt there must have been one, considering the interesting things customers did to their tools, but they happened not to send them back to B&D. 12L14 made a great drill chuck but not worth a #@$! for reliably containing an explosion.
Two subjects I'd comment on. Most, including myself from about 1968-198?, have had good luck with our 12L14 barrels. Thing is, all of those lucky barrels were made from bar stock that had no cracks in it. 12L14, however, is subject to cracking when the mill cold draws the hot rolled bar down to the nice perfectly round bar that will fit in a collet. Not often, but sometimes. If one has a cracked bar, well, it may work for quite a while. Or it may not. Especially if the new guy doesn't manage to get the ball all the way down in loading.
Loading errors? Come on now, we all know that firing with a short started ball is more common than one would prefer to admit. And each time, do you really get that ball all the way down on the powder? Does a newbie know how important this is?
Finally, it is NOT a matter of strength. 12L14 has much higher tensile strength than does wrought iron, when nice smooth bars are slowly pulled apart in a tensile test machine.
Not the issue. The steel must be ductile. This is something that late 19th century boiler makers slowly learned, after using this wonderful new, strong stuff called steel, instead of that nasty old weak wrought iron.
Whoops! The "strong" stuff didn't always hold together.
Someone here mentioned Spanish & Italian guns bulging. Yes, they bulge and eventually burst, but they do not shatter. This is because these Europeans are such fantastic machinists that they can actually make a barrel out of low sulfur steel. From what I've seen I think the Italian barrels are stronger (higher tensile strength!!! than the Spanish, but the Spanish barrels I've seen blown sure are ductile.
I like having ten fingers. I really prefer to have no sulfur addition to my gun barrels, thank you.
There is a very good thread here on shooting Zuoaves. I just got some .562 balls from TOW. Tuesday, weather permitting, I hope to give my slightly dinged up Zoli a try. Perfect bore.
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I have personally blown up a Douglas barrel. .50 cal X 1" straight, flint gun. No fault of the material the barrel was made of, my fault for improper loading. You can't be a moron and play with guns..... :o
I used to shoot alot of skeet with damascus barreled SXS's at a local trap/skeet club every Wednesday night. I loaded my own shells with either BP or low pressure smokeless. The "modern" gun shooters either biatched about the smoke or freaked over using smokless in damascus barrels.....we generally were segregated to our own field and the score keeper was warned not to stand too close as our guns were "DANGEROUS".
Anyway, I saw a "Modern" over under blow on two consecutive Wednesday nights. Amazingly, nobody was hurt either time but both guns blew at the breech and pretty well disintegrated. Here again, improper loading (double powder using a progressive machine). Here again, you can't play with guns and be a moron.
What have I learned? It really doesn't matter what you make a barrel out of if you let a moron load it incorrectly...... :P This fact alone negates all the scientific tests and formulas and makes all of the types of barrel steels irrelevant to a certain point.
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The arguments for barrel quality steel are compelling but there's no destructive testing data at all. I'd like to see some chromoly 4140 barrels short started and fired with normal black powder loads preferably with the front lug dovetail right behind where the short started leaves the ball. Head to head with 12L14. We've all seen modern barrels blown because of slipping and getting some mud or even snow in the barrel. Usually look like banana peels.
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What were TC Hawkins barrels in 15/16", .50's made from in the 70's - anyone know?
They were bulging barrels when short started- always behind the ball - horrific bulge - way behind the sight dovetail.
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Hi Daryl...That's what I was referring to. The Italian Hawken's were doing the same thing when short started. Magnificent bulge [walnut] but the barrels held. The only split I saw was a short started ball that coincided with the dovetail .
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5-13-17
Elnathan,
What are the (certified gun barrel steel) AISI number(s) that you are referring too for black powder muzzle loading rifle barrels as per your previous post.
"Then there is the problem of getting certified gunbarrel steel in small quantities"
Who, what agency, where, when: provided or stated the (certified gun barrel steel) specification(s) for black powder?
Note: All comments from all members of this forum are also welcomed, since we all have a vested interest in the safety of the use, manufacturing, repair etc. of black powder muzzleloading rifle barrels but not limited too just black powder rifle barrels, but all muzzleloading black powder barrels.
Best Regards,
Robert T Adams
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Rtadams,
The mills themselves certify it as gun barrel quality, I believe. From what I have read this typically means that they take extra precautions to ensure that the alloy elements are to spec and are evenly distributed throughout, magnafluxed or otherwise inspect the bars for flaws, and may adjust the mixtures slightly to better suit its intended purpose. Unfortunately, mills tend, or at least have been in the past, to be rather reluctant to explain what exactly the difference between ordinary and GBQ steel.
The problem is that all this has to be done by the furnace-full, which means that the mills sell it by the furnace-full. This requires an investment that is beyond the means of a lot of these small operations. One barrel maker I talked to told me that getting a load of GBQ 1137MOD would take his entire life's savings, and I assume the amount he would end up with would be far in excess of his needs.
Now, IIRC, Bob Roller recently indicated that he got a comparatively small amount of of high-end steel, so the situation may be improving. I'm not in the market for GBQ bars, just a couple barrels, so I haven't looked into that.
I'm neither a barrel maker nor a steel guy in any capacity (well, I'm a hobbyist blacksmith, but that hardly counts) - what I know is what I've picked up from reading Mr. Kelly's articles, stuff posted on this forum and elsewhere, and talking to a bunch of different barrel makers.
http://baronespecialtysteel.com/?page_id=141
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Rtadams,
The mills themselves certify it as gun barrel quality, I believe. From what I have read this typically means that they take extra precautions to ensure that the alloy elements are to spec and are evenly distributed throughout, magnafluxed or otherwise inspect the bars for flaws, and may adjust the mixtures slightly to better suit its intended purpose. Unfortunately, mills tend, or at least have been in the past, to be rather reluctant to explain what exactly the difference between ordinary and GBQ steel.
The problem is that all this has to be done by the furnace-full, which means that the mills sell it by the furnace-full. This requires an investment that is beyond the means of a lot of these small operations. One barrel maker I talked to told me that getting a load of GBQ 1137MOD would take his entire life's savings, and I assume the amount he would end up with would be far in excess of his needs.
Now, IIRC, Bob Roller recently indicated that he got a comparatively small amount of of high-end steel, so the situation may be improving. I'm not in the market for GBQ bars, just a couple barrels, so I haven't looked into that.
I'm neither a barrel maker nor a steel guy in any capacity (well, I'm a hobbyist blacksmith, but that hardly counts) - what I know is what I've picked up from reading Mr. Kelly's articles, stuff posted on this forum and elsewhere, and talking to a bunch of different barrel makers.
http://baronespecialtysteel.com/?page_id=141
There was a time not so far gone that small orders were unwelcome and I experienced rude answers from
arrogant salesmen. Now the buyer is in most cases the boss. The companies are looking to get this stuff off the racks and out
to whoever. Go on line and type in "Small quantity steel sellers" and there will be a number of them uncovered.
Bob Roller
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Maybe someday Mike we will see a stamp I.P.S. on gun barrel steel. (Idiot proofed steel ) an we will all feel warm an fuzzy. Oldtravler
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I think what has taken five or six pages to express here is basically you can't fix stupid. And if you do change the industry to protect the nitwits, they will simply ratchet up the stupid to counteract your new safer product.
I have examined several bulged, or ruptured, barrels in my time, and in spite of every one of the owner saying otherwise, I am inclined to put the blame on the shooter rather than the product.
Hungry Horse
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Bingo!!!! So right you are Horse. You can't fix STUPID!!! Oldtravler
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Look around you everything in society has been idiot proofed to some extent or atleast tried to be.Big reason why stuff cost a lot more as well.If it weren't there would be a lot less people around,some folks will never stop trying to make a liar out of Darwin though,even if it kills them ;)
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No matter what steel you make barrels from there will be a certain amount of idiots thats gonna do idiot things. It cant be stopped. It cant be regulated. It cant be outlawed. Loaded as they should be their fine. Do something that shouldnt be an your gonna have problems. Seems kinda a no brainer to me but then again what does a dumb redneck know :)
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I would like to agree that bulged or ruptured is the shooter's fault.
Human error will always be present in loading muzzle loaders. Even when the shooter knows better he is, unfortunately, still a human being. It is my understanding that all humans tend to make errors now & again (on average, how many errors is even somewhat predictable, per a study done after Three Mile Island)
Can't stop people from making errors, also can't fix stupid. I personally still do not want to hear of stupid, careless people loosing body parts to what they thought was going to be a fun hobby.
A SHATTERED BARREL IS ANOTHER MATTER.
Failure may initiate because of -
A flaw in the steel (possible in metal bars in general)
A stress raiser which even professional designers of machinery seem to forget about now & again
And certainly human error, such as an air gap between powder and ball, or the intense ignorance
of using smokeless
Given one of these errors, a barrel of ductile steel will bulge (pocketbook problem only) or burst (anything from no injury to catastrophic, to shooter).
Gentlemen, these tubes really are meant to contain a violent explosion.
Bad things do happen for any manner of unexpected reasons.
Unexpected.
If you expected them they'd not happen.
Responsible engineering practice is that where human life & limb is concerned (petrochem guys call it "Lethal Service") extra care must be taken in design, materials selection, and manufacture.
This is actually true in the real engineering world, with the usual human errors thrown in.
It is not true in a few segments of the firearms industry, for reasons up to useless speculation.
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No matter what steel you make barrels from there will be a certain amount of idiots thats gonna do idiot things. It cant be stopped. It cant be regulated. It cant be outlawed. Loaded as they should be their fine. Do something that shouldnt be an your gonna have problems. Seems kinda a no brainer to me but then again what does a dumb redneck know :)
An OLD Army Sergeant once told me that terminal stupidity is when
the pin is thrown and the grenade held close.NO real fix for it until the
grenade goes off.
Bob Roller
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Forgot to emphasis
When a barrel SHATTERS the effect on flesh is similar to Mr. Roller's grenade
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Wouldn't it be GREAT to know the percentage of barrels that have shattered when being used with black powder/muzzleloaders?
We will never KNOW. Anybody want to hazard a guesstimate?
.000002%? Who knows?
Best regards, Skychief
PS, I sincerely wish we had a bona fide percentage. That would be most telling.
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"Learning is not compulsory.......... neither is survival!"
W. Edwards Deming
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Dr. Boone that just hits the nail on the head perfectly. Thanks Oldtravler
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We had a fellow show up at a muzzleloading match ; patched balls only, and asked if he could shoot his inline. Yes, OK , since we try to get newer shooters involved. His rifle was one of those rated OK to use with smokeless, and that is what he brought to use at the match. He wasn't happy about having to use BP even though we gave him the powder. The marketing of M.L. rifles for use with smokeless has confused and muddied the water for a lot of new to M.L. folks, and I'm surprised we don't see more accidents /barrel failures than we do.
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We had a fellow show up at a muzzleloading match ; patched balls only, and asked if he could shoot his inline. Yes, OK , since we try to get newer shooters involved. His rifle was one of those rated OK to use with smokeless, and that is what he brought to use at the match. He wasn't happy about having to use BP even though we gave him the powder. The marketing of M.L. rifles for use with smokeless has confused and muddied the water for a lot of new to M.L. folks, and I'm surprised we don't see more accidents /barrel failures than we do.
I think the NMLRA has a rule that says "NO SMOKELESS POWDER FOR ANY REASON".Back in the early days of the
muzzle loading revival there was a "Semi Smokeless" but I think it died with some of the powder mills like King's
in Ohio years ago. Farris had some in the early 1950's and I would imagine these cans are now collectors items.
What bob in the woods described is the root of a real threat. Suppose a newby shows up with a conventional,side
lock caplock rifle and an unnoticed can of Bullseye or 2400 and stokes up his rifle and then everyone finds out what
a shoulder fired pipe bomb is.Perhaps inspections are a good idea in light of the muzzle loader moving into the space
age.I recall an incident at Friendship years ago about a fellow shooting a "duplex"load in a bench gun. This consists
of a very small nitro powder base charge and a much bigger charge of black powder. He was said to have gotten distracted
and reversed the ratios of powder and when the gun blew up Bill Large and I were standing near the main gate and felt the concussion
of that load going off. By Divine intervention,the shooter wasn't hurt and nobody else was but that mishap prompted the NO
Smokeless rule.Looking at the gun and the powder brought with it is the only way to eliminate these types of narrow escapes
and nobody should object to it.
Bob Roller
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Since we are on this topic,
Anyone ever utilized a "used M2 50 cal" barrel and re-cut it for Muzzle loading?
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A .5 barrel's rifling twist of 15" is a mite fast for a ML, unless it is shooting 800gr. or heavier cast bullets.
Taylor's 24" twist .50, handles 600gr. to 1,000 meters just fine.
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I talked to PacNor today. They make barrels for muzzleloaders like Savage with a very fast twist. They are also very limited to lengths and bores they can make. They do not install breech plugs or do the machining to install one. The only breech work they do is like you see on a Savage muzzleloader. They can make smoothbore barrels (bored round bar) that are 38" or less in length. Materials available are stainless or 4140 steel. He did say they do NOT have a problem getting 4140 material in small quantities. After talking to them I believe the 250 to 300 dollars for a 4140 contemporary muzzleloader barrel that was mentioned previously is very optimistic.
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Those fast twist barrels may also have shallow grooves.
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Rich- they are likely not over .005" deep. However a phone could result in considerably more accurate 'guess' as to rifling depth. I do not know what it is in the factory inlines.
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If a person wanted to build up a flint or percussion bullet gun - or say, an English style Creedmoor rifle, he'd could do a lot worse than choosing a Pac-Nor barrel.
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If a person wanted to build up a flint or percussion bullet gun - or say, an English style Creedmoor rifle, he'd could do a lot worse than choosing a Pac-Nor barrel.
Jim McLemore called Tuesday and said that the Rigby barrel project he's doing is working out and he is
making tooling to make integral Rigby flats. I have no idea about prices but that quality of work has
never been cheap nor should it be.He DOES use Gun Barrel Certified steel for these and all other barrels he
makes.
Bob Roller
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http://www.sleepyhillbarrels.com/index.html
Welcome to Sleepy Hill Barrels!
Attention
For the foreseeable future I will be taking a break from the black powder field.
I will not be taking or filling any muzzleloader barrel orders.
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http://www.sleepyhillbarrels.com/index.html
Welcome to Sleepy Hill Barrels!
Attention
For the foreseeable future I will be taking a break from the black powder field.
I will not be taking or filling any muzzleloader barrel orders.
I didn't see a date on this and it may not be current.
The phone# I use is 1-219-552-4050,
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I'll give him a call. Thanks Bob.
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5-18-17
Bob Roller,
Do you know the AISI number plus any letter such as (L) etc. of the Gun Barrel Certified steel that Jim McLemore uses?
Best Regards,
Robert T Adams
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What a sad state of affairs. Like many (most?) of the members, I have used Douglas and Rice barrels over the years and fortunately have not experienced any issues. Having said that, the discussions in this thread have left me with qualms about handing over a rifle built for my son and another for my grandson without replacing the barrels. I am willing to accept the risks for myself because of my experience and safety habits but I am not willing to pass that risk along to them. So who do I turn to for a pair of new barrels made with an acceptable grade of barrel steel with my existing breech plugs installed? Further, when you get along in years delivery time becomes an issue! As I said at the outset, a sad state of affairs.
J.B.
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Nothing will change unless we convince the barrel manufacturers that it is in their best interest to supply us with better barrel steels. On our end, we need to expect higher prices.
Green Mountain can make good barrels at competitive prices, but there is a big difference between Green Mountain's capabilities and the small shops that supply our market.
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5-18-17
Bob Roller,
Do you know the AISI number plus any letter such as (L) etc. of the Gun Barrel Certified steel that Jim McLemore uses?
Best Regards,
Robert T Adams
Seems to me, Dphar noted it was 4150 here on the forum some time ago.
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McLemore told me he used AISI 4150 steel a couple of years ago
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What a sad state of affairs. Like many (most?) of the members, I have used Douglas and Rice barrels over the years and fortunately have not experienced any issues. Having said that, the discussions in this thread have left me with qualms about handing over a rifle built for my son and another for my grandson without replacing the barrels. I am willing to accept the risks for myself because of my experience and safety habits but I am not willing to pass that risk along to them. So who do I turn to for a pair of new barrels made with an acceptable grade of barrel steel with my existing breech plugs installed? Further, when you get along in years delivery time becomes an issue! As I said at the outset, a sad state of affairs.
J.B.
I'm pretty happy with the way things are right now......
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I am with Mike on this. I load an shoot safely an have taught my 2 grandsons the same. Nobody has proved to me that my barrels are unsafe. I have been shooting these style guns for 40 yrs with zero problems an I sure aint gonna quit now because some metal expert says my barrels aint safe. If these barrels were blowing up like they say then the ambulance chasing lawyers would have a field day in the courts trying to get some money out of someone an then NO ONE would still be turning out barrels of 12L14 but im sure Rice an Burton an whomever will be at work making barrels next week. I can blow up any barrel no matter what its made of if I let stupidity take over
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What a sad state of affairs. Like many (most?) of the members, I have used Douglas and Rice barrels over the years and fortunately have not experienced any issues. Having said that, the discussions in this thread have left me with qualms about handing over a rifle built for my son and another for my grandson without replacing the barrels. I am willing to accept the risks for myself because of my experience and safety habits but I am not willing to pass that risk along to them. So who do I turn to for a pair of new barrels made with an acceptable grade of barrel steel with my existing breech plugs installed? Further, when you get along in years delivery time becomes an issue! As I said at the outset, a sad state of affairs.
J.B.
Rice, Oregon barrel company, Burton, Rayl, Hoyt, Green Mountain, McLemore, and Longhammock will all make barrels out steel-other-than 12L14. I haven't talked to Colerain , DeHaas, or Toenjes (sp?), but so far virtually every barrelmaker has expressed a willingness to use something else. The issue is that some of the alternatives may not be much of an improvement, and that most have limitations in what types of barrels they can make with those steels. And, yes, the wait time is an issue.
I'd encourage folks to ask around.
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5-20-17
Elnathan has stated: "Rice, Oregon barrel company, Burton, Rayl, Hoyt, Green Mountain, McLemore, and Longhammock will all make barrels out steel-other-than 12L14".
The question now becomes, what is the correct AISI steel to use for black powder muzzleloading barrels? Who or what agency determines the correct steel to use so that the novice muzzleloading builder or professional can be assured that every attempt has been made to use the best steel for the application. What should be the certification process to assure that the barrel maker is receiving the correct specified steel from the steel supplier/mill.
I could go on, but will end at this --- Just my thoughts!
Best Regards,
Robert T Adams
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5-20-17
Elnathan has stated: "Rice, Oregon barrel company, Burton, Rayl, Hoyt, Green Mountain, McLemore, and Longhammock will all make barrels out steel-other-than 12L14".
The question now becomes, what is the correct AISI steel to use for black powder muzzleloading barrels? Who or what agency determines the correct steel to use so that the novice muzzleloading builder or professional can be assured that every attempt has been made to use the best steel for the application. What should be the certification process to assure that the barrel maker is receiving the correct specified steel from the steel supplier/mill.
I could go on, but will end at this --- Just my thoughts!
Best Regards,
Robert T Adams
I'm sure the 12L14 barrels currently being made would all pass the black powder proof in the proof house of current day London.
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There is no government agency that will do this for you.
You are on your own.
This is, quite literally, unbelievable for an American.
I could offer examples from my own experience in Europe and Asia but that is off the subject.
Nevertheless, please do not sue me, but I would suggest you might maybe consider using Aerospace Quality bar in either grade 8620 or grade 4130.
There are probably a number of warehouses that distribute aerospace quality material. Pretty decent quality metal, people generally don't want their planes to fall down.
One place I ran across is Benedict-Miller
http://www.benedict-miller.com/content.cfm/AQ-Steel/4130-E4130-Alloy-Steel/category_id/102/page_id/114
In my personal, though rarely humble, opinion a muzzle loader barrel has more in common with a modern shotgun barrel than it does a modern rifle barrel.
And that is, both muzzle loaders and shotguns are liable to have bore obstructions. Shotguns with snow or mud from hunting. Muzzle loaders because we all know that human beings, even those who claim to be knowledgeable, will now & again load with the ball off the powder. Maybe a little (which may double pressure), not uncommonly short started, and once with me just pressed into the muzzle (pistol, did no harm)
Ductility, ductility, ductility. The better modern shotgun barrels, I believe, are some version of 4130 or 4130 with vanadium for finer grain. My GUESS is such an alloy would not be quite up to handing the wear of modern rifle bullets.
4150 is great for machine guns where the rifling should survive thousands of high velocity copper jacketed bullets before wearing out. I'd sure it would be just fine for a muzzle loader but in my own opinion - all metallurgists have different opinions - it offers no technical advantage.
Ahh, but if the barrel maker has access to rifle barrel quality 4150 then it would make sense for him to go with it.
AVAILABILTY is also a material property. Yeah, that is my distributor (warehouse) experience speaking.
There is no organization that will do this for the muzzle loaders.
Are you guys really all so very young that you'd think it beneficial for some gov't agency to help?
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5-18-17
Bob Roller,
Do you know the AISI number plus any letter such as (L) etc. of the Gun Barrel Certified steel that Jim McLemore uses?
Best Regards,
Robert T Adams
Seems to me, Dphar noted it was 4150 here on the forum some time ago.
That's the number I remember and NO letter "L".
Bob Roller
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I am with Mike on this. I load an shoot safely an have taught my 2 grandsons the same. Nobody has proved to me that my barrels are unsafe. I have been shooting these style guns for 40 yrs with zero problems an I sure aint gonna quit now because some metal expert says my barrels aint safe. If these barrels were blowing up like they say then the ambulance chasing lawyers would have a field day in the courts trying to get some money out of someone an then NO ONE would still be turning out barrels of 12L14 but im sure Rice an Burton an whomever will be at work making barrels next week. I can blow up any barrel no matter what its made of if I let stupidity take over
Ditto! I've been at this a long time and don't worry one bit about my barrels blowing up or what they are made of. Even when I take my old timer out with the forged wrought iron barrel. It seems that with so many sites and groups now days, The internet safety nannys really can ruin a good thing.
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With all the talk of unsafe barrels and unsafe barrel materials, past and present, here and on other boards, I have a question for this board.
Which manufacturers, past and/or present, should be considered "as safe as can be"?
Appreciate feedback from all, especially any metalurgists, engineers, 'smiths, builders, etc, which should be knowledgeable regarding this.
PT' s welcomed, if need be.
Best regards, Skychief
If you have a compulsion to personally prove your barrel, I have circa 1868 procedures for various British proofs for firearms/barrels. Having typed that, I've decided that, for me, such proving has not been necessary for commercially made black powder barrels and breeches.
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I have had some conversation with Jason at Rice Barrels about 4140 barrels. He has made some. It is not clear to me whether this is something he can or will do on a regular basis, but you could ask him.
Here's another option for 4140 barrels up to 41”
http://www.ershawbarrels.com/sam-product-offerings.php
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I suspect that anybody that is concerned with the barrel steel that's used today by American muzzleloading barrel makers is either worrying about things that aren't problem, or are planning to do something stupid.
Hungry Horse
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Jose Gordo- the ER Shaw barrels are not really appropriate to round ball guns.
" We currently produce more than 2,700 configurations, including rimfire, centerfire, shotgun and black powder—all button-rifled. "
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Do you object to button rifling? Personally, I don't really know anything about it.
For round ball black powder, twist rate and groove depth certainly matter. Folks like to argue about square and round bottom grooves, but I'm not convinced it's that big of an issue.
I have no idea what profiles or twist rates Shaw makes. I just happened across their site, and thought it might be of interest to someone.
In any case, if someone really wanted a 4041 barrel, it seems like you could buy it unrifled, then borrow Dave Rase's rifling machine and spend a couple of weeks rifling it yourself. It would be good exercise.
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Most commercially mass produced muzzleloading guns today have button rifled barrels. There's nothing wrong with them, other than the rifleing is rarely over eight thousandths. This is primarily where the swabbing after every shot came from. Several of the old timers at Friendship back in the day, cut, and recut, their barrels to the shallow side on their target rifles, and said they sealed up better, and were more consistent.
The softer the wrought iron, the better the old match shooters liked it. They swore it never shot slick, and freshened out easier, and so smooth it didn't require a lot of break in shooting. The old match shooters would have run from these diamond hard barrels like their hair was on fire.
Hungry Horse
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the ER Shaw barrels are not really appropriate to round ball guns.
Agreed. Looks like they make barrels for cartridge guns. The slowest twist they offer is 1 in 22".
-Ron
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Jose - button rifling usually runs from .0015" to .005" deep. This is too shallow IMHO for round ball and cloth patch - IF you want to be in the winner's circle. The odd button rifled guy, still hits the winner's circle at Rendezvous BC, but not very often. Yes- at one time I had a button rifled TC barrel and in those days of most of us just starting out, it shot well enough to win - often - woithj .495" ball and .022" denim patch. I switched to Bauska cut rifled barrels as soon as I learned the difference and have not shot buttoned rifling (except ctg. guns) since.
Hal Sharon tried deep button rifling in the mid 70's- I watched - his whole shop shook, walls, ceiling and floor as the button was 'pulled' through the bore. You could not look at a 60 watt bulb through the bore - the button rifling attempt resulting in faceting inside the bore was hard on the eyes.