AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: marko on October 24, 2022, 11:53:50 PM
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I recently acquired an unsigned long rifle that I think is Kutztown school made by one of the Angstadts, possibly Abraham. Specs are: Barrel 42 1/4 inch octagon, appears to have been bored out slightly from .45 rifled to .50 caliber smoothbore; Overall Length: 57 inches; Stock: Maple; Roman nose; downward facing silver half crescent inlay on the cheek with checkered oval incised carving toward the butt; silver thumb inlay. Four-part lightly engraved brass acorn patchbox. The lock does not have a half-cock position. Any ideas about the gunsmith?
(https://i.ibb.co/tDpFqhP/C53408-B4-BC34-431-C-86-EF-A8496-C02-D5-BF.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cQhV6vX)
(https://i.ibb.co/zJ20JnL/77-F21974-2-E04-4-CC5-B1-C3-CA598-CD0-D879.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WtzYtxd)
(https://i.ibb.co/p4qknMy/54-D74-E3-C-6317-4-CEE-AC76-7-F94-F2-E4-B1-BE.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zPdtNBJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/ck90kGd/557789-BD-85-D1-4052-9-D71-CC7-E158952-D6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DzFhzxn)
(https://i.ibb.co/NrLMhh1/5-EA782-FF-DCD7-40-F2-80-F1-29-BF44-ABC475.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MfRmTT8)
(https://i.ibb.co/zPfS2Yd/0-F1-D3843-6594-4005-95-DB-0-D5-A5-E367458.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KVy9skn)
(https://i.ibb.co/8BQTXHD/AFA31-B30-8-A00-4-F21-9-DD4-BA6942-D567-BC.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FWdNnFb)
(https://i.ibb.co/Ch4nyGT/9-F56-C54-B-C809-4-F6-A-867-F-EEF8974-D0749.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f4ZCWwP)
(https://i.ibb.co/sshz3KJ/25080-C8-E-B7-F8-4139-BC16-E37-F526-F41-EA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/44c3N8g)
(https://i.ibb.co/kGdNSWd/AC365665-17-F0-4-DBE-B287-5-A0-B26-C88-D6-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/10SFmwS)
(https://i.ibb.co/WxRkJfz/29-F94594-9-ECD-41-E1-9674-D7-B8-A6-A43-CEA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/X2G7Rt5)
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EK can confirm. I’m inclined to say it oughta be. Very fine.
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I meant to include these photos… Also, comments on the lock would be appreciated.
(https://i.ibb.co/KqWhNbn/51-C7-A97-D-0596-4-DC2-B1-BD-0-A8446-CC9-F8-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yyqPhd2)
(https://i.ibb.co/7Qfsft0/8-CEAED51-2-AAA-4-F7-A-8-C3-E-51-C2431-C7-E21.jpg) (https://ibb.co/r3jDj2X)
(https://i.ibb.co/p05KSKK/EBCA31-D3-4-A94-4634-AA8-E-3628-BF1-AEAE6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qyVgvgg)
find duplicates in list (https://dedupelist.com/)
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Certainly looks like a gun by one of the Angstat's. The 'railroad tracking' engraving on the PB lid is common to one of the family builders, but I don't recall which one. Beautiful rifle and in quite good condition with all the bells and whistles for a good Allemengal gun. As to the lock, hardware store most likely, but jV, our resident lock expert will hopefully long in on this one. Thank you for posting photos of your outstanding rifle. Much appreciated!
Dick
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I recently acquired an unsigned long rifle that I think is Kutztown school made by one of the Angstadt, possibly Abraham. The lock does not have a half-cock position.
Your statement about the lock not having a "half-cock" position raises an interesting subject. When did the half cock position in sidelocks become a regular feature.
American Military side locks did not have a half-cock position on the tumbler until the mid 1870's. What about civilian sidelocks?
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I recently acquired an unsigned long rifle that I think is Kutztown school made by one of the Angstadt, possibly Abraham. The lock does not have a half-cock position.
Your statement about the lock not having a "half-cock" position raises an interesting subject. When did the half cock position in sidelocks become a regular feature.
American Military side locks did not have a half-cock position on the tumbler until the mid 1870's. What about civilian sidelocks?
Hi Kent,
Halfcock notches were the norm since the very inception of the French flintlock in the early 1600s.
(https://i.ibb.co/L5FVVXq/inside-lebourgeoys-lock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hf633Jn)
On a military flintlock, how would you load in the regulation way without a half cock?
dave
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I don’t consider myself an expert, but the Patchbox and cheek carving have a Albright family feel to them. I have a David Albright with a very similar Patchbox, and the incised carving looks like a Jacob Albright. I believe Jacob Sr was apprenticed in the Berks county area
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I recently acquired an unsigned long rifle that I think is Kutztown school made by one of the Angstadt, possibly Abraham. The lock does not have a half-cock position.
Your statement about the lock not having a "half-cock" position raises an interesting subject. When did the half cock position in sidelocks become a regular feature.
American Military side locks did not have a half-cock position on the tumbler until the mid 1870's. What about civilian sidelocks?
Hi Kent,
Halfcock notches were the norm since the very inception of the French flintlock in the early 1600s.
(https://i.ibb.co/L5FVVXq/inside-lebourgeoys-lock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hf633Jn)
On a military flintlock, how would you load in the regulation way without a half cock?
dave
Dave,
You are correct of course. I was mixing things up for some known only to my therapist with the three click tumblers of the M1873 Trapdoors. I think the second notch was considered a safety notch in some respects, it really wasn't and it was introduced first on M1873 Carbines only per page 29 of Al Frasca's 45-70 book published in 1980. This is beyond the scope of this forum.
Please do not excommunicate me!!!!!
Kent
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I was going to post this in the other thread about this lock, but thought would be better here.
The most likely way for the current configuration of this lock is that these components are not all original to the lock plate. Nor is the lock plate original to the rifle.
From what I see, the lock was originally a flintlock, as was the rifle. At some point both were converted to percussion. Then again, both were converted back to flintlock. However, I'm not certain that lock and gun actually came down through time together. One reason, in the next to last picture of the rifle, the lock plate looks to be a good bit too short for the inlet mortice. Not the end of the world, as lots of these guns have replacement locks in them. Some were time of use, others, more recent additions. Actually, lot's of these guns have come down through time with their locks missing.
As for a guess of events, at some point, likely in time of use in some other rifle, the lock was converted to percussion. Maybe the tumbler was broken or missing, or maybe the owner didn't want a half cock notch and the percussion tumbler was installed.
Down the road, at some point this lock and rifle ended up joined. Probably, in the not too distant past, the then owner decided to have it converted back to flint. The job was done, but left many signs of that work being done.
Please don't take this as criticism of your lock or rifle, because it isn't. Lot's of these old guns and locks have gone through several configurations in years past. This is just a simple and reasonable way for a flint rifle to be found with a percussion tumbler in the lock.
John
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John, thank you for your observations. In light of your comments, I looked closer at the fit of the lock into the mortised stock. I had thought that the lock was original, but now question that conclusion.
In the attached photo, I have noted two points of possible "non-alignment" between the lock and and stock, and one between the lock and barrel.
I don't understand, though, how you come to the conclusion that the rifle was converted to percussion, although I know that was common for old flintlocks. Can you elaborate?
(https://i.ibb.co/kD3Ls3w/DC04-C1-C8-5-D68-48-F9-9-A29-43-F690849-E0-D-1-201-a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3Ffx9fj)
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Marko,
IMHO what you have is a late Angstadt. Abraham or one of his kids prior to the Ohio / Indiana move.
Buck
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Hi Buck,
Was that move to Ohio because of farming or the gun trade?
dave
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Marko,
I think that you have a great looking rifle, congratulations.
I'm curious as to the measurement from the breech end of the barrel to the touch-hole.
Thanks for posting your photos.
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Hi Buck,
Was that move to Ohio because of farming or the gun trade?
dave
My father owns a back action locked rifle that has been in our family since the 1870’s. It is marked “A. Angstadt”. So whether they were primarily gunmakers or farmers, they did make some rifles. This one has a hardware store lock from Lafayette, IN. My family lived in the same Indiana county at the same time as the Angstadt’s.
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Buck: could I ask for your rationale in reaching that conclusion? (I tend to agree that the maker was Abraham Angstadt)
WESTbury: 9/32” or 7mm, whichever you prefer ;)
davebozell: could it be that your family’s rifle was made in Berks County, Pennsylvania, and carried West?
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WESTbury: 9/32” or 7mm, whichever you prefer ;)
Thanks. The threaded portion of the breech plug must be notched, or not?
By the way, the metric system is much easier to work with. I spent three years designing machines for a German company and once I got use to using the metric system, the English system seemed rather arcane.
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WESTbury… (P.S. I agree with you about metric. Too bad we didn’t convert around 1970 when the effort was made.)
(https://i.ibb.co/R6dz5BS/87-AEDA7-C-2554-4730-A6-C7-1-B1-A96-DFB0-FE.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vdRZtQB)
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Great photo of the barrel touch-hole area. Have you tried pulling the breechplug?
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No, I haven't. Is there a reason I should? (I removed the barrel in hope of finding some identifier on its bottom... alas, no such luck).
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No, I haven't. Is there a reason I should?
That is really the only sure way to determine if the barrel was percussion altered with a screw-in drum. From your photo, it does not appear that it was but some of the restorers out there are magicians.
I'm hoping that the barrel is in original flint condition.
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Smart Dog,
I couldn't speak to why they migrated West, only that he and his family did. They were in Ohio briefly and moved on to Indiana where his family established a pretty lucrative gunsmith business.
Buck
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Hi,
Thanks Buck.
I ask because there was such a migration even from New England to the midwest because of more and better land. In fact, it really depopulated some parts of Vermont during the first quarter of the 19th century.
dave
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Oops I'm late to the party I see! :P
Buck here certainly knows his stuff though. My primary interests are Adam and his sons Peter and Joseph. I'm still not clear on who the heck was Abraham's father but this sure does have the look of a later Abraham piece, 19th century. Still, there are some neat characteristics that tie back to the earlier Angstadts imho, the triangular stampings on the box and the neat little diamond shape tail on the sideplate a couple of them. Guard filing and shaping also. Cool rifle!
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Buck: could I ask for your rationale in reaching that conclusion? (I tend to agree that the maker was Abraham Angstadt)
WESTbury: 9/32” or 7mm, whichever you prefer ;)
davebozell: could it be that your family’s rifle was made in Berks County, Pennsylvania, and carried West?
I think the Lafayette, Indiana marked lock and and the fact that the Angstadt family arrived in Indiana after 1850, points to it being made in Indiana. Unfortunately, our family rifle is nowhere near as spectacular as yours.
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Marko,
IMHO what you have is a late Angstadt. Abraham or one of his kids prior to the Ohio / Indiana move.
Buck
Buck: could I ask for your rationale in reaching that conclusion? (I tend to agree that the maker was Abraham Angstadt)
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John, thank you for your observations.
I don't understand, though, how you come to the conclusion that the rifle was converted to percussion, although I know that was common for old flintlocks. Can you elaborate?
(https://i.ibb.co/kD3Ls3w/DC04-C1-C8-5-D68-48-F9-9-A29-43-F690849-E0-D-1-201-a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3Ffx9fj)
marko,
Sorry I missed your question earlier.
As for the touch hole, to me it just looks sort of indistinct, with a shadow of a larger circle around it. It also looks to be too far to the rear, maybe to line up with the center of the pan on the little bit too short lock.
Now I might be all wrong, just looking at the picture.
If you want to know for sure, and the barrel hasn't been shortened from the rear, pull the breech plug out, and the truth will be there to see.
Nice gun none the less!!!
John
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To determine where the face of the breechplug is, put a long rod in it, mark the rod at the muzzle, lay it along the barrel and there it is.
I don’t see enough there to figure out if the lock is original to the gun but that lock was a flintlock when it was new. The lockbox fitting to the era of the gun.
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To be clear, I wasn't suggesting unbreeching it to determine the length of the plug. I was suggesting to pull the plug, and look where the touch hole comes through to the inside of the barrel. If it's original flint, there will be solid barrel steel with only the through hole through it. If it's reconverted to flint, you should be able to see the end of whatever was screwed into the percussion drum threads, and maybe some threaded portion of barrel wall as well.
Personally, I wouldn't worry about it at all. Most flintlocks were converted to percussion, and a lot back to flint. In the end, no big deal.
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Marko,
Abraham had a distinctly different style than his uncles and father. He’s the only Angstadt of that generation that had a refined engraving ability. His architecture followed the Reading school as opposed to the LeHigh style - I’d defer to Eric to elaborate on that. The carving is (IMHO)of the Susquehanna style which he did employ as he was a gunsmith in that region for a short while. I believe He was a quality gunsmith possibly the most consistent of his clan - again I defer to Eric as he is a fan of Peter and these might be fighting words. The side plate is interesting and not what I would consider an Abraham staple, more in line with the work of Peter or Joseph. I’d definitely place it later in his career, maybe even a build after he left PA. I’d have to have it in hand, but it’s definitely a later rifle.
Additionally, his lineage as Eric stated is been a topic debated several times here on the forum. If your interested you should be able to locate the thread - I believe it was last year sometime.
Regards and enjoy the rifle.
Buck
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(https://i.ibb.co/rdKnWSr/patchbox.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6Xc6dxC)
My A. Angstadt rifle
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At typical Birmingham-made export lock. From the picture of the lock in the gun, I'd guess it was replaced at some time. That isn't as difficult as it would be today. The locks were made in huge quantities by specialist lock makers. They were offered by the dozen in things like "rifle size", "pistol size" etc. The manufacturing techniques were not flexible enough to accommodate wide variations so, in period, you could probably go to whoever supplied it and find another that was quite close to the old one. It wasn't "interchangeable" parts in the modern sense but it was as close as anyone could get at the time...
And Kent...the metric system is fine for engineers. From a machinist's point of view it's a huge PIA. The milimeter simply isn't anywhere near as easy to use for precision work as a thousandth of an inch...1 mm = .0397 while a tenth of a mm is .00397. One is too big and the other too small. Add to that the huge complication of transposing the figures if all your machines are graduated in thousandths and it's a real time killer.
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My A. Angstadt rifle
Chris, Is your Angstadt rifle signed? "A. Angstadt"? Any carving on the cheek? Inlays anywhere? Patchbox engravings are very similar to mine.
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Marko,
Abraham had a distinctly different style than his uncles and father. He’s the only Angstadt of that generation that had a refined engraving ability. His architecture followed the Reading school as opposed to the LeHigh style - I’d defer to Eric to elaborate on that. The carving is (IMHO)of the Susquehanna style which he did employ as he was a gunsmith in that region for a short while. I believe He was a quality gunsmith possibly the most consistent of his clan - again I defer to Eric as he is a fan of Peter and these might be fighting words. The side plate is interesting and not what I would consider an Abraham staple, more in line with the work of Peter or Joseph. I’d definitely place it later in his career, maybe even a build after he left PA. I’d have to have it in hand, but it’s definitely a later rifle.
Additionally, his lineage as Eric stated is been a topic debated several times here on the forum. If your interested you should be able to locate the thread - I believe it was last year sometime.
Regards and enjoy the rifle.
Buck
For a number of reasons, I am coming to the conclusion that my rifle is out of Abraham Angstadt's shop in the 1820-1830 timeframe, likely having been converted to percussion, then reconverted to flintlock with the current lock (and backing plate) that has always been a flintlock.
Abraham Angstadt (1783-1867) the gunsmith was in Orwigsburg, Schuylkill Co., PA, at this time according to the 1820 and 1830 US Censuses. (Another Abraham Angstadt (1764-1842) lived his whole life in Berks Co., likely as a farmer.)
Here's the rub... Abraham the gunsmith moved further to Indiana where he died in 1867. He signed his will with "his mark," not with his signature. Odd that he would do that if he was, in fact, the subscriber of the "A. Angstadt" or "A.A." rifles. Could these have been another Abraham Angstadt? The one who remained in Berks Co.? Or an Adam Angstadt?
Buck, I am slowly working my way through all the Angstadt posts on this forum and slowly adding them to my genealogical database on the Angstadts. If you - or anyone else here - is interested, I have posted my research on the family at http://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/tools/tree/185760137/invitees/accept?inviteId=a88d5744-7e95-4802-8ccd-434f0170f17f
The Angstadt gunsmiths are all indicated by a rifle stock as their identifier photo.
(https://i.ibb.co/0VKwn24/IMG-2320.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bRFf6mw)
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Marko,
The AA and A.Angstadts rifles are Abrahams - all the same hand. The rifle you posses follows the Schuykill / River style or i.e. the Susquehanna style. I'll run through the cliff notes version:
1.) Thought to be Adams son from second wife.
2.) Learned the trade in Reading, Adam was in Reading about this time (1795) building clocks. Quick note - a signed Adam rifle does not
exist, however there is one Grandfather Clock that is signed Adam Angstadt.
3.) Adam and Abraham return to Rockland where Abraham works and eventually runs Angstadt and Son. Notice the singular - Joseph
was the Son, Peter didn't participate. Eric has extensive info and theory's about Peter.
4.) Abraham eventually takes full control of Angstadt and Son after the passing of Adam. There's more but I don't have the paperwork
in front of me. If I recall correctly there was an elderly Male in Abrahams household around the time Adam passed away (per
census) - possibly Adam.
5.) Abraham moves on to Orwigsburg where he continues building rifles, then to Ohio, and then onto Indiana.
I have the AA Swivel that is pictured in "The Kentucky Rifle" by Merril Lindsey. Your rifle is either a late Abraham or he taught the smith that crafted your rifle (one of his sons). There were several sons, I believe there was a gunsmith or two in that group. Abraham's style is completely different from the rest of his Brothers / Uncles and Father / Grandfather. Adam is likely his father, though Joseph and Peter were old enough to father him.
If you have information please share. I can say that Dave M, Eric K and I would love to see it.
Chris - looks like a fine rifle, love to see more of it.
Regards,
Buck
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Here's a couple pictures of the A Angstat signed rifle I had some years ago. At the time I thought it was Adam, but maybe not?
Sorry for the background. At the time, it seemed like a good idea?
(https://i.ibb.co/5MJBCY7/A-Angstatt-10a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DVj5mGq)
(https://i.ibb.co/2tkjbsW/A-Angstatt-1a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gTRDnPm)
(https://i.ibb.co/Lhx1GBp/A-Angstatt-13a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jZyDpq4)
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OK, here's a few more photos of my Angstadt for comparison.
(https://i.ibb.co/cxcK2pQ/5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pnv64sd)
(https://i.ibb.co/q7wdP9G/patchbox.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sbr2MQS)
(https://i.ibb.co/9wQb17z/2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DG09vZs)
(https://i.ibb.co/MhdQykJ/3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LPKHDds)
(https://i.ibb.co/vxLgxQ6/4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pv4GvRB)
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OK, here's a few more photos of my Angstadt for comparison.
Thanks. I see many similarities between your AA rifle and mine. 8)
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John,
Great rifle, definitely Abraham.
Chris,
Also a great Abraham rifle, beautiful patch box.
Buck
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The will is interesting but I would raise two points: being able to hammer grave letters or "shapes" on a barrel doesn't mean that one likewise can write anything more elaborate in ink, and the use of the 'mark' or X also may only mean that at the time the will was recorded, he was infirm or otherwise unable to sign his name if he could in fact write. Just thinking of a couple of alternatives here.
Edit: I would add that - to my mind - the fact that these all seem to be simply marked "AA" might reinforce the concept that he was not able to write very much, and perhaps the two single "A" letters is what he could manage to engrave competently (especially since they are the same form or letter) as opposed to a complete name.
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BUCK: Saw your ALR comment on Angstadt, referring to Adam as a clockmaker While I note that some records in Berks County show him as a clockmaker, no one seems to know of an example. He is shown in Maxatawny tax lists for 1793-1799 as both a gunsmith and a clockmaker later in life, but no one seems to have a clock by him, including the Kutztown Historical Society. Those dates indicate this would be Adam senior (1740-1812).
And if so, what part of the clock did he make? - most often the name on the face/dial is the final assembly maker- the guy who put the 3 parts together-case, works and face- or may only be the marketeer/store/broker of the clock. Tall case clocks generally have more maker/seller signatures than any gunbarrels.
My question is: have you seen a tall case clock signed by Adam Angstadt? I cant find anyone who has seen a signed Angstadt clock-where is your source for that possibility?
hope to seeya in York next week
Patrick Hornberger
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Patrick,
(https://i.ibb.co/fHLGBf2/MVC-015F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YhwTYm3)
(https://i.ibb.co/16g1jG8/MVC-016F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RyFfdTz)
These photos have been around for 30 plus years.
Buck
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Patrick / Eric,
You'll have to excuse the previous post, was a bit under the weather last night. When I received the photos of the clock a lengthy discussion followed, the origin of the clock and Adams documented time in Reading as a clock maker. Also, the theory of Abrahams apprenticeship in Reading, his eventual take over of the gunsmith business and migration West. The debate of his parentage, the possibility of Joseph and Peter and the probability of Adam. Adam's second marriage to Dorothea was discussed as was the possibility of an extramarital affair. Abraham is a bit of a mystery, his Reading style, Adams documented time there and Abrahams inheritance of the business points to that family. He had 4 sons, 1 Peter and 1 Adam. Namesakes - Brother and Father or Father and Grandfather - which is it? Just a theory of course.
Abrahams direct family tree:
(https://i.ibb.co/fk0hgJr/A-6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8r8WCkP)