AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Molly on November 12, 2022, 03:57:07 AM
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Anyone have any ideas on this one? Pulled the photos off the internet so they are not so good and not presented well. The claim is it is 1st quarter to the 19th century. Cherry stock supposed to be in otherwise great condition. Appears to have a new nipple suggesting someone made it into a shooter. A mystery gun to some who have been asked but it still has some appear. Have not seen it in person. Sorry for the photo presentation. May be able to get more next week.
(https://i.ibb.co/qCX0y9G/Image-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jq0xB2L)
(https://i.ibb.co/JjPXx54/Image-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/N2zw1ZP)
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It’s got Soddy Daisy lines.
That gun is in remarkably good condition for an antique. I’m leaning contemporary.
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Looks contemporary to me. But nice...
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Now yer talking. The soddy features do appear on the left and right side of the stock. But there are no photos from the butt view. The description does not say anything about the bore. I'm anxious to see it first hand and will follow this with additional photos. If it were a soddy and actually an old one, would that not be a great find?
Molly
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I’m in your corner!!!
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Molly , appears to me to be some wood replaced above the lock, a good job of it though.
Nice rifle,
Bob
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To me it looks unused, mostly unused, and contemporary. Maybe a mix of some old parts. Maybe an old barrel.
There's no percussion flash burn on the wood or iron, so use would be minimal at best. And wouldn't be the first new gun to have a wood repair on it, for one reason or another.
It's a nice looking rifle, and if the price is somewhat close to a new gun price, I'd buy it, if that was what I was looking for.
If it's being sold as an original, for sure a gun in hand inspection.
John
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I believe this rifle sold on Track of the Wolf several year back, if not it’s a close copy. My vote is contemporary.
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Since I'm logged in I'll add my current view. Yes, probably a contemporary aged very well and sufficient to fool the auction house. More to follow Wednesday evening.
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Molly , appears to me to be some wood replaced above the lock, a good job of it though.
Nice rifle,
Bob
How would a stock get damaged there? The stock otherwise looks too pristine to have kicked around Tennessee for 200 years. It's almost like the builder patched an inletting error. I've seen stocks blown out on the bottom from the mainspring failing. Is there a reason the side of the stock would break above the sear?
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I see what appears as a repair there but I'm not sure it is. Really poor photos, pulled off the internet, printed and then scanned to be able to post them. We'll see in two days! Some of the other guns being offered came out of the same collection. Personally, I do not view any of them to be quality originals.
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Enlarge the lock picture. The lock's inletting is just too darn good imho and the lock panel lines still sharp.
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I also think it's contemporary but looks like it was made by somebody that is no novice.
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The rifle does have Soddy characteristics. But the butt plates comb lacks the true shape. Should come down longer on the side. IMHO
(https://i.ibb.co/C2qggxt/16686060715406416240092324260101.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bJxTTp3)
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That is not an old hog rifle. For one the triggers are contemporary and so is the powder drum. Nice rifle though and I do believe the maker had soddy on his mind!!!
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Saw it today and there are many features that do not show like the photo. First, there is no repair behind the hammer. Secondly, the metal has a lot more age showing that the pics and it is quite irregular. In some spots deep corrosion. Wood has probably had some degree of cleaning and maybe refinishing but it blends very well. It has been update to shoot however. Bore is as good as new and yes, the nipple is new. The rounded front of the comb appears to have been "bobbed"
I think it was originally rounded and subsequently squared off. I know the point where the rod enters the stock would most likely be rounded not blunt. I wanted to remove the lock but the guy threw a hissy fit about that. Note the 3rd photo below. There is really no butt plate however the tow plate wraps around the toe and extends an inch or so up the butt end. Between that the the "cap" on the top is just wood. Also note the way the screw heads have been filed to the angle of the drop at the top of the comb. As to the drum, disagree that it is new. Obviously the nipple is but don't think so on the drum. Also at the nose the wood tapers from the front edge of the first thimble outward to the nose. I wish it had not gone through a refresh of the bore but it still is very appealing. I'm (or hubby) are players for it. What should the max bid be? Just for kicks.
I'll try to ad some photos later. All in all it's still a neat rifle.
(https://i.ibb.co/CsfbTsK/20221116-104221.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2YTvfY3)
(https://i.ibb.co/syHXjpR/20221116-104239.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SRrZNDy)
(https://i.ibb.co/RCQhnLK/20221116-104358.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q6Y8BsV)
(https://i.ibb.co/pJ6XsTk/20221116-104411.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yWmsMCx)
(https://i.ibb.co/YPBMSZN/20221116-104422.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PFGnyQr)
(https://i.ibb.co/6BYp6ZD/20221116-104534.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xHhcVsz)
(https://i.ibb.co/CsfbTsK/20221116-104221.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2YTvfY3)
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There’s something not right about the barrel to breech plug area in my eyes. The gun looks uncomfortable at the muzzle too. The lines of the buttstock are still pretty crisp for an antique. I’m still lightly leaning Soddy but some weird stuff is going on with this one. Either weird or very unique. I’m a contemporary guy so don’t lean too heavily on my observation. I would pay a contemporary price for this one just to be safe.
W
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I’d say contemporary restock using some original parts.
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I’d say contemporary restock using some original parts.
Most likely.
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??? ??? ???.. This rifle is interesting to me,.. the first photos I saw screamed "contemporary" with a great job of "antiquing" ... but the new photos made me change my mind,... long 3-screw barrel tang is Soddy, the heel of the butt-plate is Soddy,.. the diamond cross-section of the butt is Soddy,.. Most Soddy rifles were used as target rifles, cleaned immediately after competition, and stored until the next shoot,... they were named, well loved family members, and most 120 year old rifles from that region are still in immaculate shooting condition,.. as is this rifle,... now the most interesting feature,.. in his 1970 published document on Tennessee Rifles, Robin Hale shows a rifle on pages 15 and 16 that was reputed to be made by known gunsmiths Clark and Horne at Waldens Ridge , just north of Chattanooga and near Soddy,.. this gun has the same two-part butt-plate,.. look up the photos in the booklet and compare,... I wish I could examine this rifle ... regards, ... CCF
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??? ??? ???.. This rifle is interesting to me,.. the first photos I saw screamed "contemporary" with a great job of "antiquing" ... but the new photos made me change my mind,... long 3-screw barrel tang is Soddy, the heel of the butt-plate is Soddy,.. the diamond cross-section of the butt is Soddy,.. Most Soddy rifles were used as target rifles, cleaned immediately after competition, and stored until the next shoot,... they were named, well loved family members, and most 120 year old rifles from that region are still in immaculate shooting condition,.. as is this rifle,... now the most interesting feature,.. in his 1970 published document on Tennessee Rifles, Robin Hale shows a rifle on pages 15 and 16 that was reputed to be made by known gunsmiths Clark and Horne at Waldens Ridge , just north of Chattanooga and near Soddy,.. this gun has the same two-part butt-plate,.. look up the photos in the booklet and compare,... I wish I could examine this rifle ... regards, ... CCF
Thanks for your observations as well as some Soddy history ! Is the inside of the "heel cap" /top of butt plate, filled with pewter? Thanks
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Actually, it looks to be pewter but to say "filled with"...I'm not sure. From looking at the one photo it looks more like a pewter sheet bent and pressed over that section of the stock. Note the small end cap to the back. It looks as if it is actually "tacked" on with very small nails.
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Dana and all:
Hubby just found a pdf of that publication on line. It was and is in the archives of the ASAC. Hale called that feature one of the most unusual one ever seen, referring to the two piece butt plate. While the one shown differs the feature is unmistakable. Never seen or even heard of it before.
You can download the pdf for future reference. Also the ASAC has a good website which has copies of much, if not all, of their articles.
Molly
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Actually, it looks to be pewter but to say "filled with"...I'm not sure. From looking at the one photo it looks more like a pewter sheet bent and pressed over that section of the stock. Note the small end cap to the back. It looks as if it is actually "tacked" on with very small nails.
Thanks
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There’s something not right about the barrel to breech plug area in my eyes. The gun looks uncomfortable at the muzzle too. The lines of the buttstock are still pretty crisp for an antique. I’m still lightly leaning Soddy but some weird stuff is going on with this one. Either weird or very unique. I’m a contemporary guy so don’t lean too heavily on my observation. I would pay a contemporary price for this one just to be safe.
W
My big question mark concerning this is the amount of pitting on the tang, but no where else. One would would expect to see a good amount of corrosion around the area of the drum and considerable wear around the stock, but there doesn't appear to be. There is, however, a goodly amount of pitting on the tang, plus there is a distinct color change between the tang and the barrel. It is an odd duck and seems to have more questions than answers. I would insist on taking out the lock despite any hissy fits. Just doesn't pass the smell test unless more examination can be done.
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I looks like it’s been skinned. Draw filed through the pitting, stock with finish touched up. That’s ok, it’s intact.
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The metal of the barrel shows a much greater degree of corrosion that what is shown further forward and on the left side. Skinned, refreshed or whatever it's still appealing. Guess we'll just need to buy it so we can get lots of better pics and resume the discussion. I do not think there is any question of it having soddy features and that alone gives it appeal. When was the last time anyone saw a two piece butt plate (except CCF)? Or a sheet of pewter (?) tacked on as a cap to the butt plate? Sure, it's not an investment grade rifle but at the right price....
Well know tomorrow this time. So with all the expertise on board, what will the final bid be? Come on, stick your neck out guys.
Molly
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$1250... ;D
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I think that's a good number. At least we have one opinion. OTHERS?????
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;) ;)... worth at least that, if it was a new build,... you might make out like a bandit,... fingers crossed for you,... !!!
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It seems to have picked up a lot of interest overnight. I think there is some buyers making a connection to all the civil war items in the line-up. A old bag and a pair of horns are one lot behind this gun. So "I'm sure the bag, horns and gun were used by a southerner fighting the Yankees in the War of Northern Aggression'
People find reasons to believe what they want to. Pre-bidding closes in about 10 minutes. CCF, I'll send you an email with my guess so you can confirm after the auction.
Molly
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Got it for $1000. I (he) was way off expecting it to go higher.
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Molly you did in my opinion ( which means squat ) very well..! Congrats
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Good job. Congrats.
Hey, now you get to yank that lock.
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;D ;D ;D.. Yep,... I think you made out like a bandit,... !!! ... proud for you,... can't wait to hold and examine,...!!! ... regards and congrats,... Cades Cove Fiddler,.....
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Did you also get the bag and horn? It's always a shame when these get separated. Historically, I think it's important to keep these items together whenever possible.
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Bob: No, did not get the bag and horns. It was pretty rough and there was no assertion that it went with this gun as there were several others in the auction. I'm not sure that it was even the same consignor.
Pics of the lock, mortise and bore below. Hubby is convinced it is an original although maybe later that the listing suggested. There is a number of small dings and some shrinkage in one area. It is a 50 cal, might actually more like a 52. Most likely the original hickory rod and the jag is not a "new" style...,pics later. Trigger guard was hand forged and maybe a repair at the rear finial where the guard attaches . And maybe a name in block print on the barrel back about half way between the breech and rear sight. Cannot make it out but one letter at what looks to be the beginning looks like a "C". Don't see any wood replacement. OLD AND SWEET!
(https://i.ibb.co/zrWsxtV/20221119-182841.jpg) (https://ibb.co/47wWt0R)
(https://i.ibb.co/28qwSjY/20221119-182822.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cbJPwNX)
(https://i.ibb.co/MRNpNR7/20221119-183729.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xM5G5M6)
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Great Purchase. Blow by Blow I am enjoying this post and look forward to your findings.
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Nice looking gun. If the sear spring is made of flat stock wound around the sear spring screw instead of forged, it is post 1900. Rifling with wide grooves and narrow lands is rarely seen on common sporting rifles from the 1800s in my experience. Same is true of the crown treatment.
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Molly the more I look at this gun I think hubby is right. Looking at the lock mortice it screams mid 1800 to me. I do believe it has strong Soddy influence.
The comb plate is interesting indeed. I have seen only one other simular to yours and personally I think the maker did it that way because he wanted to..
He probably had no idea that we would come along and dissect it latter on. He just liked what he did.
Maybe he seen it on another rifle at the time ? But like all Soddies I have seen and handled. Like C.C.F. said they are all well taken care of. Been studying Soddies for almost 40 years still learning...
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We have gotten sidetracked today but hubby did get additional photos and took measurements. Regardless it is a sweet little rifle and we are both very happy with it. Actually to this point it has proven to be very entertaining and we have not even pulled the trigger! (And may never do so.) I did check the listings and the bag and horns did come from the same seller. I do wish we would have made an attempt to buy them even though the bag was pretty rough, missing a flap. I do think the name on the barrel is going to remain a mystery. Two small letters at one point appear to be a "C and an L" but then in another location are cap letter that are either "C" or maybe "G" but the rest remains totally illegible. Also, the heel "cap" is a ferrous metal, not pewter. Thimbles appear to be brass but are not. Here is one good photo of the guard. Pinned at the front, screw at the rear. Also one of the thimbles and then a left and right shot. Cleaned with Murphy's oil soap spray, dried good and applied a bit of Renaissance wax. Like I said earlier, not from 1800 to 1825 as claimed by the auction house and they are generally pretty good in their disclosures.
(https://i.ibb.co/4f7GTbc/004.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rtmS6Bg)
(https://i.ibb.co/vhNgHXj/007.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f93B2Dx)
(https://i.ibb.co/q1Y9r6W/026.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WKvF2CP)
(https://i.ibb.co/XJdz5fg/027.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tCNb2wt)
Just a comment on overall condition. On the wall are two original Ambrose Lawings. Condition of those are as good as this one. Also the W W Lawing posted a few weeks ago is equally as good. Those TN guys took care of and valued their rifles.
AND NOW IT'S TIME FOR SOME MORE TENNESSEE....GEORGE DICKEL BOTTLED IN BOND.
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So, just to wrap it up...
58 inches overall length, barrel length 42 and 3/8ths, barrel about 13/16th at the muzzle, straight barrel.
Thimbles look brass but are "iron". The cap on the heel is also "iron" not pewter.
The butt is 1.5 inches at the widest part.
3 screw tang 6.5 inches long.
Guard is pinned in the front and uses a screw at the back.
4 barrel pins.
The bore is slightly larger than a 50 but a thick patch and a .495 ball would work OK.
The bore condition does not support that this was a rifle made in the 1st quarter of the 19th century as the listing stated. HOWEVER....
Husband spoke to a very well known barrel guy yesterday by phone. He did not see the pictures but said that he had refreshed many old guns over the years although does not do it today. The conclusion about that was that it was time consuming, expensive and apparently somewhat difficult. There were shades of a feeling that it was not proper but that was never said. What was said was that there are a "lot of old guns out there that do not have "old" bores.
Note that this was an issue raised in the initial post. "It has been made into a shooter".
Beyond the bore, the overall condition does strongly suggest that it is an "old" gun.
Several years ago we were asked to help a local attorney find a new home for an "antique" rifle. We went to pick it up and found it to be in exceptional condition. It had a signed barrel but the bore was bright. It had a flash hole liner and a replacement lock. Another example of an "old gun" with a refreshed bore and made into a shooter. It was examined by several (3) well known NC rifle experts. The critical element was that they concluded that it had been restocked, probably in the period. Actually, only two made that conclusion. One was much less certain but yielded to the views of the other two. None who examined that rifle had any negative comments on the refreshed bore
So, it will remain a controversy and probably never be resolved in an absolute manner and sometime in the future some will see it first hand and draw their own conclusions. Thanks for all the opinions.
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Well done, Molly and your Hubby - antique or not - a steal.
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I personally see no problem with refreshed barrels on this type of rifle. They were being used in match shooting well into the 20th century. Good find !
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Hi Molly
Congratulations on getting this gun, I was in the mindset that it was a well done contemporary but I have also changed my mind after viewing the latest pictures. The barrel may have been freshed out and the crown added by a shooter. I agree that all the old barrels I have seen did not use a crown. I don't know why barrels were not crowned because crowning aides in loading and helps with accuracy, but they were normally not crowned. But I do not think that takes anything away from this nice rifle, if anything it just adds a little more to its history. Enjoy it and I hope to get to see it some day.
Jim
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Thanks to all for the comments. Since the last post I have shared photos and info with a few more big dogs in the world of southern rifles and we are please to find the firm opinion of those few is that we have an original rifle, probably made as early as 1860 but very well as late as 1880 to even 1900. As the story goes the mountain men of the area to the north of Chattanooga was active in making their guns mostly for shooting matches. Never a style that was very popular among collectors...to which I responded that there are only so many Beans, Bulls, Lawings, etc. and the time of the Soddy is here!
Molly
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yes it is contemporary sort of. it won a national shooting championship 20 years ago or so. And how do I know this? I thought about bidding on it last week, this was part of the description. Nice rifle. I didn't bid because I have my eye on an EX. GEORGE NEUMANN Club butt Fowler.
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you owe me. I saved you some money by not bidding LOL ;)
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Nothing in the item description (below) as you report. "2nd quarter of the 19th century" that would be 1826 to 1850. Not "sort of contemporary" by any stretch
This is the item description:
RIFLE, approximately .45 caliber, figured cherry fullstock with carved cheek rest, rifled octagonal barrel, double set trigger, unmarked lockplate, period ramrod. Second quarter 19th century. 58 1/2" LOA, 42 1/2" barrel.
Provenance: From the collection of Williston and Josephine Cofer, Alexandria, VA.
Condition
Request Condition Report
Very good condition, stock with excellent color, light corrosion to barrel.
Other lots in this auction
But there are other auction platforms which pick up and provide buyers the opportunity to bid. If another platform added information which was not provided by the auction that had the rifle, that seems to be inappropriate. At the same time, if Evans had this information and failed to make it known, that too would seem inappropriate. Whatever the case may be it's a great little rifle and the controversy about contemporary/original only adds to the mystic...and appeal, at least it does at this price. If it sold for many times the price it may not be so appealing. And if it actually "won" a national competition, that's a bonus. HOWEVER I don't view the rifle as the winner, it was the shooter.
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As I noted early in this thread, the form of the rifling and crown were dead giveaways that it had been rifled post 1900. The narrow land/wide groove style was not seen before 1900 and maybe much later, like 1930s. If it had been “freshed” it would retain the same form. What Bobby Hoyt does is not “freshing”. He drills out the old rifling, reams the barrel, and rifles the larger caliber bore to a modern style of rifling with lands no wider than grooves.
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As I noted early in this thread, the form of the rifling and crown were dead giveaways that it had been rifled post 1900. The narrow land/wide groove style was not seen before 1900 and maybe much later, like 1930s. If it had been “freshed” it would retain the same form. What Bobby Hoyt does is not “freshing”. He drills out the old rifling, reams the barrel, and rifles the larger caliber bore to a modern style of rifling with lands no wider than grooves.
There are definitely 19th century firearms with narrow lands and wider grooves and pronounced crowns, including muzzleloaders. I see it on European percussion target/dueling pistols and some of the finer target rifles. I will agree that the style of that rifling and muzzle do look a lot like 20th century and current contemporary rifling patterns and muzzles.
But there are other auction platforms which pick up and provide buyers the opportunity to bid. If another platform added information which was not provided by the auction that had the rifle, that seems to be inappropriate. At the same time, if Evans had this information and failed to make it known, that too would seem inappropriate. Whatever the case may be it's a great little rifle and the controversy about contemporary/original only adds to the mystic...and appeal, at least it does at this price. If it sold for many times the price it may not be so appealing. And if it actually "won" a national competition, that's a bonus. HOWEVER I don't view the rifle as the winner, it was the shooter.
In my experience, the major third part online auction sites like Proxibid, Invaluable, etc. get the auction information they have posted directly from the auction houses that they are hosting. I can't see any reason why a third party auction hosting service would have a different description unless there was an error.
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Seth....thanks, PM sent.
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Molly, I need to apologize to you, that is not the same rifle I was looking at, they could be twins. It was an honest mistake. sorry about that.
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Absolutely no apology necessary. It could have been that another platform had additional info, either by mistake or by intention. Amazing that a pair sell about the same time and have such similarities. What did it bring?
:)
MAS