AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: bbennet2@hotmail.com on January 15, 2023, 11:50:07 PM
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So I have been around this rifle all my life. My Grandmother who was born and raised on a ranch in Northern New Mexico said it was her grandfathers, which he fought Indians with while settling the town of Tererro, NM. As I got older my Grandmother passed it on to my mother who has now passed it on to me. I know what a Hawken rifle is, but would like some help with any info anyone on here could provide me with such as approx date of manufacture, model, value, etc. I would also be interested in restoration advice as well. Thanks in advance and look forward to hearing from you guys.
(https://i.ibb.co/kc3HzZf/5-F0-B2-CBF-7720-42-BB-B197-1047-B1774-D68.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6svnGQx)
(https://i.ibb.co/7JJLYw9/5-EC21-AC4-5-F41-4-B6-F-B0-C8-FDB0-BF6-AD6-E8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zhhDnyk)
(https://i.ibb.co/YZPGLXZ/035556-E3-81-F2-4-A83-898-E-89-E4-E751-CD43.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cLkdrwL)
(https://i.ibb.co/sJq5thf/BBE8-C270-1571-49-B3-9-F1-E-DB4-CD9-C89-A88.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NnK17Xv)
(https://i.ibb.co/Ht0HJ1w/3-EBF0-ECC-9463-41-ED-B41-F-D78-EC12-F0888.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LxMZGbj)
(https://i.ibb.co/BfSX1bC/C78-F39-F5-C0-FC-4480-827-A-1-FAC887-DBAFC.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j81cpmr)
(https://i.ibb.co/sPJM2wR/CD54957-F-71-E1-4083-9-CB6-1021-B5-CD7-CC9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cvX71F3)
(https://i.ibb.co/stYmfsh/D2-F6-B409-2621-49-E8-A461-DEE342-DDD3-EC.jpg) (https://ibb.co/t3rmGYS)
(https://i.ibb.co/PThBnVC/B3-ADD253-12-B2-40-B5-A4-BA-28-E65-DB895-D6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q0sbf21)
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It’s just barely possible that J&S Hawken used a back action lock but the architecture looks right as does the patchbox. The guard is what would be seen on their local small caliber rifles which are of high value but not as high as their bigger bore going West rifles with scroll guard. The tang and 2 keys are like they’re going West rifles. Fascinating gun. I’ll PM you about value.
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Thanks Rich I guessing the caliber is .54? My .50 sabots would fall through it if I dropped them down the barrel.
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Very nice box!
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If it's an J & S Hawken it would have been made before Jakes death during the Collora epidemic in St. Louis. 1849 IIRC I would not do any restoration work to it but thats just me. You might be reducing the value of it by doing so. :-\
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YEARS ago in Michigan a fire destroyed a big gun collection and a Hawken with a back action lock was supposedly one of the ones lost.
This IS an unusual gun but I would say it's authentic until PROVEN not.
*Edited to remove modern gun discussion*
Your rifle is not the conventional style we associate with Jake and Sam but I would bet it's a real one *Edited to meet ALR rules*
Bob Roller
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If it's an J & S Hawken it would have been made before Jakes death during the Collora epidemic in St. Louis. 1849 IIRC I would not do any restoration work to it but thats just me. You might be reducing the value of it by doing so. :-\
1849 was the date and to get rid of the Cholera they burned the town down and rebuilt without all the wood structures to help stop the spread of this plague.I agree with Grouch,no restoration and none appears to be needed.
The above info about the fire was told to me by the late T.K.Dawson who made superb Hawken copies in the late 1960"s before anyone else even tried.
Bob Roller
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I just sent you a private message with contacts that can help give you more information. Can you post photos of the percussion bolster and the full length of the tang? I'd also be interested in close up photos of the patchbox. Both with the box closed, and with it open so we can see the release mechanism. There are 2 Hawken rifles that I'm aware of with single set triggers. Does your rifle have a simple single trigger... or is it a set trigger? A photo of the cheekpiece would also be helpful. The middle ramrod pipe appears to have a sling attachment. A better photo of that would be great.
I'd bet money it's an 1840's gun. Nothing about it indicates it was made earlier than that. As already stated, it would have been made before Jacob's death in 1849. The style of percussion bolster really helps here. I'd also like to get a more complete family history. Provenance is really helpful. You can private message me if you prefer.
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I'm wondering how old that barrel stamp is. Could it have been done later to enhance the value?
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I'm wondering how old that barrel stamp is. Could it have been done later to enhance the value?
The name looks very neat as if struck with a stencil that was very uniform and not with individual letters.
Bob Roller
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Another possibility is that it's a period restock using a Hawken barrel from a previous rifle. However... to me... there are some Hawken-like features here. Some were used by others during the period... so maybe Hawken... maybe not... They are...
1. The lock bolt washer with recessed bolt head
2. The shape of the forestock and how it terminates into the endcap
3. The entry pipe being held with 2 pins... some Hawken rifles had this... most didn't
4. The patchbox has that odd-ball Hawken look to it
Almost all of the Hawken rifles in my photo files have the barrel keys entering from the left side of the forend. In other words, the heads are on the left side. "Almost"... not all. On this rifle they enter from the lock (right) side. The Hawken brothers seem to have used heavier keys. It might be helpful if we could get key dimensions (body width and thickness along with head dimensions).
I think some views of the patchbox release and kick-open spring would help. The Hawken brothers used some... not so successful... patchbox mechanisms. This was a conversation I had with Louie Parker via email a couple of years ago. We talked about the number of times we've seen rifles where the patchbox lid had been pried open because the mechanism failed.
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Also... Make sure you double check to see if it's loaded. You'd be amazed at the number of old rifles that still have a charge down the barrel.
If it's an original J & S Hawken... please don't do any restoration or cleaning. Also... don't be tempted to shoot it. It's your rifle, so it's your decision, just be aware that it could decrease it's value. Original Hawken rifles... especially early one's... are more valuable as collector rifles rather than as shooters.
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Hope these help. Also in the lock plate engraving there appears to be the name Rasmore & Son maybe? on it. My grandmother’s Maiden name was Rivera. Her father was Encarnacion 1896-1976 I think I’d have to check. His father was Cristino (Original owner) 1843-1918 who settler the mining town of Tererro, NM in 1878 and his father was Jose Luis Ribera. Who lived in the town of Pecos, NM and is buried at the old church there which is about 25 min south east of Tererro. There are several good books about my family ‘The First Pioneers of the Upper Most Pecos’, ‘Campfires of a Naturalist’, and ‘Beatty’s Cabin’. I included some excerpts and a pic of the dugout the way it looks now from the first book mentioned. I also still have a/the bear trap too.
(https://i.ibb.co/Tqx0rGf/F53-E2614-9589-4-AAE-A2-EF-64-D67-B353-B21.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YTFdbSC)
(https://i.ibb.co/fr5wvSn/021-D47-E6-EE8-A-4442-B5-C5-3-ADED1101-E5-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KVkvwGL)
(https://i.ibb.co/82DPpQp/2-CF3-D7-BE-F7-C0-42-E1-A529-F40-A1-EE04-D43.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vmxLGMG)
(https://i.ibb.co/5nw4DHh/C0-C61680-E4-AC-417-A-89-C8-70-CB89-BCDF28.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MGQST0k)
(https://i.ibb.co/8rjHZWB/46-D4-A81-A-8122-4-B5-B-9414-176-E8956-AC48.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rxZVrCt)
(https://i.ibb.co/sJfsWhS/F5-CC4777-2-CCD-4-A98-A7-C2-CB0-A7-F30-AB25.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QjgYDZB)
(https://i.ibb.co/MDHMYTJ/74-EFE9-EF-C343-4-AAC-8862-2-BF5-B1-DCBC5-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6RSg3hq)
(https://i.ibb.co/Kz9nSwP/14-BF61-AB-4789-4-CAC-BEA1-0814-E86-D215-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WpcCjth)
(https://i.ibb.co/RDbg4z2/90-D5-F018-AFEF-4606-915-D-B7-AE6696-B5-E3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yQPNBW0)
(https://i.ibb.co/7R7jtpX/643-D576-F-4-C68-4812-BB1-A-A548-AB9-EECCF.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TbzYM0k)
(https://i.ibb.co/6BfzJSz/2-A9-F7951-127-A-4-ACD-9386-D4-B25-C22-FCAF.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Zmk51r5)
(https://i.ibb.co/KyKkZMF/7-F5-F29-C1-F49-E-4-E2-A-BA26-89292-E189985.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6sXxh3g)
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Yeah Bob I get it that the letters are stamped as a set. I was poking at the patina in the letters under magnification. Are the letters as old as the surface of the barrel? I know of at least one supposed original Hawken that had been helped out with a new barrel stamp.
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The percussion bolster looks correct (and pretty typical) for a Hawken rifle of the mid 1840's-1850's period. Keep in mind that the Hawken brothers didn't produce these parts. Rifles made in other parts of the country used identical parts. The tang shape says 1840's to me. My guess is that this rifle was made in the late 1840's.
The patchbox release wasn't what I was expecting. It looks like a cam-over style. What I thought was a button head for the release is actually just a finger tab for lifting the lid. It looks like the spring is "T" shaped and riveted to the underside of the patchbox surround. That, to me, is Hawken-like as per my past conversations with Louie.
Is that a barrel key escutcheon sitting in the patchbox? Does it look like it would fit the current forestock?
Daniel... I think I know the rifle you are referring to (that is over-stamped). If it's the one I think it is... that rifle is at the Buffalo Bill Center of the West in Cody WY. I examined that rifle in person. I am 100% positive that rifle is an original Jacob Fordney trade rifle. The rifle displays peening to remove Fordney's stamp. It was then over-stamped with the J & S Hawken stamp. There are 2 possibilities for that rifle:
1. The Fordney rifle was converted from flint to percussion during the period at the shop of J & S Hawken, and was over-stamped at that time.
2. Someone in the 20th century took an original Fordney rifle and converted it to percussion and changed the stamp to make people believe it was an early flint Hawken rifle.
A very knowledgeable friend of mine described a "tell" with Hawken stamps from known forgeries. Unfortunately, I haven't seen an actual forgery to be able to see the difference for myself. Maybe in the future I'll be experienced enough to tell the difference by sight.
Regarding the rifle posted here...
I don't see anything that says it's NOT a Hawken. I like it! Once again we're seeing a rifle from the pre-1850's period of Hawken production that shows variety. It's refreshing to see stuff that doesn't look like the typical 1860's rifles that everyone identifies as a typical Hawken rifle. The family history seems consistent with a rifle from this period. Your relative (the original owner) could have purchased this new or used. It seems it was probably already several years old before he acquired it. You really need to have an expert examine the rifle in person to be 100% sure and to get a value.
One thing I've always wanted to do was remove the buttplates on these rifles. Rifles by other makers will sometimes have notes written on the wood under the buttplate. I always wondered if Hawken rifles had something under the buttplates. Boy... could we all learn something from that!
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The hammer looks to be a crude hand-made replacement. The lock would be "R. Ashmore & Son". as per Mtn Meek from a previous thread...
Howard Blackmore lists Richard Ashmore as "Gunlock maker, Wednesbury, Staffordshire, 1827-55."
It's a typical English import lock of the back action type.
Regarding the patchbox...
It looks like a casting. It was originally made larger, and was shortened to fit this rifle. As cast, it would have probably been intended to be inlet in the center of the buttstock with wood surrounding it. In other words, it wouldn't have been cut to touch the buttplate. It's large enough that I would call it a patchbox and not a capbox.
I'm really digg'n this rifle!
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I’m taking it at face value that the rifle has been in the family and is not for sale now or in the future, so if we take that position, it hasn’t been re-worked anywhere.
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RAT, thanks so much for the info. Yes, that is one of the barrel key escutcheons in the patch box and it does match the others on the rifle. It has been in there for my entire life (well since 8 I know). What are your thoughts on the lock plate engraving? And Rich you are correct, I now interest of ever selling the rifle. I really just want to honor my ancestors and preserve it as best I can without hurting it. I was told my great great grandfather had many rifles but after his son passed I was told the family took them all and they scattered to the wind. My Grandmother worked in Albuquerque, NM where my Grandfather was stationed while he was in the Air Force. They met, got married and moved back east to TN. My Grandmother went back to care for her mother before her death and talked her close cousin who had this one into letting her have it bc she didn’t have anything from her father. Funny now bc she was deeded the ranch by her mother before she passed bc she came to care for her. Funny how things work out.
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Rich also. I don’t know if it has been reworked. I know my Grandmother had a gunsmith in TN “make” a ramrod for it as the original was missing. And the stock was cracked so I don’t know what else was done other than she wasn’t pleased with what was done or what she paid for I should say. The ramrod appears to be just a wooden dowel.
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My thoughts on barrel keys entering from the left are that it was intended to be the same way you mounted a horse, from the left.
I think overall you have a great family heirloom and quite possibly an original Hawken. Still curious about the barrel stamp patina?
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Dan, thank you. I really don’t know and so that’s why I reached out to you guys on here. The extent of my Hawken rifle knowledge started with Kit Carson and ended with Robert Redford lol. I do however think it’s entirely plausible for frontiers men to repurpose locks, barrels and other mechanisms when there was a need.
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With the "right side/left side" barrel key issue, couldn't it simply be that the forestock's oval inlays/escutcheons were lost on the left side, so someone switched the keys to the right side so they still seated against a protective wedge inlay, rather than buggering up the bare wood on the left side?
Shelby Gallien
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It looks like the escutcheons currently installed might be silver. The one in the box looks like it might be brass. IF that's the case... they could have been changed out for that reason. The key direction might have been changed at that time as well. The keys should be pinned in place via a slot in the center of each key. All you need to do is remove the barrel from the stock and look for the pins holding the keys in place. If you see holes (for the pins) on both sides, that's proof of them being switched.
If you can find out the name of the TN gunsmith that did the recent work (1990's being recent), see if you can get in contact with him. Ask him to document in writing exactly what he did. Keep that with the rifle to help document it's history.
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RAT, coincidentally I do know where the gunsmith is bc he lived near my grandmother. It was a father son business. The father has since passed but the son is still there. I will go to see him and ask him for documentation.
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You might consider contacting the Hawken Shop;
The Hawken Shop
Original Hawken Rifles
P.O. Box 593
Oak Harbor, Washington
(360) 679-4657
FAX (360) 675-1114
1-800-450-7111
E-Mail greg@thehawkenshop.com
They have a large collections of original Hawkens, and could probably help with some of your questions.
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Very cool piece of history.
I like all the home-brewed parts.
Jim
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OK there are some relevant and irrelevant variations here. Noting I do not have the rifle in hand.
Barrel looks pure Hawken. And since the rifle has provenance I doubt its been restamped.
The forend is very “Hawken”. Silver was not uncommon on the J&S rifles.
The brass BP and TG are a non-issue. But the buttplate has flats on the top which would be IMO a little off for a Hawken. But if it came down the river like that I cannot imagine it not being used OR if it was from a wrecked rifle someone traded in (who can say?). It should be round on top at this period I think. The TG is a lot like one on a heavy FS S Hawken in the Cody Museum. And there is a brass mounted scroll guard typical 1/2 stock “Rocky Mountain” rifle at Cody that is ALL brass mounted right down to the late design key escutcheons. So iron mounted is not set in stone.
Single trigger is a non-issue. Hawken “Rocky Mountain” rifles were made with single triggers.
Barrel, breech, standing breech all Hawken. OR much like what would have been used and it looks to be at least very late 1830s to 1840s to me. The breech is not the latest design. But its not mid-1830s either by the standing breech design. And there is a 1/2 stock in Cody with the later breech and the standing breech looks like that on what I am pretty sure is a mid-1830s rifle and the buttplate appears to be one of the cast versions. Remembering that they came, most likely, from Birmingham, just like the lock.
Back action lock is an oddity. Still it would take a lot less time to shape this rifle than it would the typical rifle with lock panels and also unless them came as a set fitting the lock to the breech takes time as well. The rifle would probably have saved 1/2 a day at least compared to a “standard” lock. But the wrist is weaker.
I do not like the way the comb is shaped where it blends to the wrist. But that big fullstock S hawken is a little big here as well just not that bad. And I am 100% SURE that this long heavy brass mounted S. Hawken “Kentucky” is pure Hawken. It has a cheekpiece detail that is identical to a FS S Hawken “Rocky Mountain Rifle” that we also had out of the case and hands on.
Patch box is just there it is what it is.
THEN…
In the 1840s when the Oregon and California migrations were running it was, according to a statement attributed to Sam, that they simply could not make enough guns at the time. Demand outstripped their capability. So they very well may not have been able to get anything but back action locks at some point or at least not enough “standard” locks. Or other classic “Hawken” parts. Remember that their supplies were coming down the Ohio by boat.
Looks like the hammer broke and was replaced by the local blacksmith.
Now it COULD be a restock. I still think the buttstock is a little crude. But there are some Hawkens that are not as carefully shaped as we might expect, cheekpieces come to mind.
Then the sling mount on the rod pipe but none on the stock. This concerns me a little. The Hawken shop would have put one on the stock I would think. But??? Did the pipe or pipe/rib assembly COME that way? Was it a salvage part? By the 1840s how much were they making in shop? I doubt they ever made the barrels other than reaming and rifling them. The breeches? Of course not. Locks were all bought from one supplier or another. We know they were buying from Tryon.
But then we have the CA Gold Rush/ Oregon migration thing so maybe things were rushed a little.
Keys in from the wrong side? Would have to see the barrel and stock separated. How many apprentices did Jake and Sam have in the shop? Did the customer want this or some later owner move them?
The fullstocked converted rifle that came from Cooper’s Landing, AK. At least thats where is was when it appeared in Baird’s book… As RAT has stated. Its not a Hawken. But I do not believe the marking is entirely spurious either. I think the barrel was rebreeched and probably freshed by the Hawken Shop and it probably was a good shooter and they stamped it. IIRC this is a pretty heavy rifle and may have been winning matches as a FL when it was converted. Probably post 1840. If this was the case and it was owned by someone that shot really well, they may well have put their name on it for advertising. They would not want people looking at a match winning rifle they reworked and ordering a Leman.
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Looking at the photos again. I don’t think the comb/buttstock is as clunky as some original Hawkens I have examined so other than the buttplate being a little odd I can’t see much to make me think it was anything but somewhat odd J&S Hawken.
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It is my observation and hope that as rifles such as this one surface, some day perhaps an original intact flint Hawken will also come to light. It's been fun to study this rifle's pictures...thanks to the owner for the story and presentation.
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WOW… The amount of knowledge from you gentlemen in amazing. Dphariss, I’m attaching a pic of the underneath of the butt stock and there is a hole. Could it be where the sling rivet might have been at one time? Again thank you all for all the information and GREAT conversation. Please anyone else that can add anything else please feel free to add on. So, would it be reasonable to call this a variant of their Rocky Mountain Rifle?
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Forgot the pic of the butt stock.
(https://i.ibb.co/2s7NCjq/8-C0-DF7-C8-FE39-4367-9-A47-2581-E4-D5467-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9V9t1qn)
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Given the large caliber... I would say it is. But as Dan has said, we haven't seen it in person. We're only going by photos.
I would also be cautious using the term "variant". That makes it sound like it's a special one-off from a standard production line product. There was no production line as we think of it today. Everything made during that period would be a "variant". It wasn't until later that the products became more standardized. Like Dan said about the demand during the gold rush and Oregon trail migration increasing demand. There was much more variety during the (pre-1850) J & S period.
If you can, measure the bore with a set of digital calibers. I'm sure folks here would also like some dimensions posted (barrel length, width of the barrel at various points, length of pull, etc.).
The toe plate looks very "Hawken" to me. They used that finial motif on a few patchboxes. If that hole looks like a wood screw was once screwed in there... then yes... it could be from a screw stud for sling attachment.
I'm sure the trigger guard and butt plate were castings produced by one of the major parts suppliers. Philadelphia was a major center for such parts. I just looked at the photos I have of the brass mounted rifle Dan mentioned that's at Cody. The trigger guard is not identical... but then... it doesn't have to be. I'm just saying it's not the same casting.
Bob Browner may be another person to contact. He purchased Don Stith's business.
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Back in the early 70s I lived only about 40 miles from fellow member of The Dakota Territories Gun Collectors Assn. , Dr. Ken Leonard and had a couple of chances to have a nice sit down with him. One of the things he stressed to me was that there were/are a lot of variations in gun makers work including the Hawken Brothers. A lot of his Hawken's ended up in the Cody Museum IIRC.
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I posted the measurements from end of barrel to the breach. I also believe there was a tang measurement. I’ll get a flat measurement and the number of landings, as well as the bore mic. Any other measurements that might be handy?
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Looks like my speculation about the escutcheons was wrong. I just enlarged the photos on my desktop... as opposed to my laptop... the rear left hand escutcheon seems to be missing from the stock. That explains the one in the patchbox.
I've been looking through my books and have found several Hawken-associated rifles with back-action locks. One marked "T. Campbell" (Tristam Campbell), one marked "H & C" (Hoffman and Campbell), and one marked "Campbell" (Tristam Campbell). Tristam Campbell worked at the Hawken shop beginning in 1842. According to Hanson, Samuel Hawken retired in 1854. At that point his son, William Hawken, took over control of the shop. Tristam Campbell became his partner. Campbell left the business in 1856. These rifles post-date the time he worked for Hawken.
Any measurements are helpful. For example... I'd be interested to learn if the barrel is tapered and flared. I created a 6 page Excel spreadsheet of measurements for one rifle we examined at the Montana Historical Society. I'm kind of crazy that way.
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When I pulled the image of the back side of the forestock off and enlarged it significantly, it appears that both front and back wedge escutcheons are missing.
Shelby Gallien
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Yes, they are both missing. One is in the primer box. The small brads are falling out on the right side as well. The keys are all that are holding one in. Both brads are in the other.
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Has anyone given any consideration to the possiblity that it is a rebarreled rifle? Not impossible and might explain
why it doesn't fit the "mould"assigned to the Hawken rifle.Just an early morning thought from a feeble mind.
Bob Roller
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Too bad the Hawken brothers weren't told what their guns were supposed to look like. The ones I have seen looks similar but are far from being identical.
Different locks, different breeches, different tangs, different but plates, different scutcheons, but they are still similar in appearance.
They also werent told to date them.
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Anyone have thoughts on where to get a correct ramrod? The Hawken shop has the fittings, other than that all I can find are ones from cabelas and such and most are not the right length.
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If you can contact Jim Gordon in Glorieta, New Mexico. He has several Hawken's on display in his museum.
I was there about a year ago and it was worth the trip.
Carney
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If you can contact Jim Gordon in Glorieta, New Mexico. He has several Hawken's on display in his museum.
I was there about a year ago and it was worth the trip.
Carney
^^^^^^^
This
To clarify, these little arrowheads ^^^^ point upward hoping the reader will notice what’s above. “This” meant “I agree with this”. I’ll use real sentences from now on. No harm intended
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A back action lock , original to a Hawken, is not unheard of although not common. In fact there is one here in Missouri.
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. "Does your rifle have a simple single trigger... or is it a set trigger?".
I don't see where this was answered. When I enlarge the picture of the trigger area I am pretty sure the screw directly in front of the trigger is an adjustment screw for the set trigger. There appears to be a slot for a screwdriver and also a cross hole for a pin to turn it. The dark spot in front of that looks like the screw hole for the tang screw.
Joe Stein
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Fascinating thread, and thanks for sharing such a piece of history with us.
I do see a hole there in that last pic, where a sling mount probably was located.
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Joe, there is a set screw in front of the trigger. So I do believe it is a single set trigger.
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You asked about a replacement ramrod... rather than going into a long explanation here... I sent you a private message explaining what you'll need.
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Joe, there is a set screw in front of the trigger. So I do believe it is a single set trigger.
Push the trigger forward and if it clicks and sets then touch it and see if it IS a set trigger.Pushing it forward may also expose spring tension even if the "set" doesn't work.
Bob Roller
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Joe, there is a set screw in front of the trigger. So I do believe it is a single set trigger.
Push the trigger forward and if it clicks and sets then touch it and see if it IS a set trigger.Pushing it forward may also expose spring tension even if the "set" doesn't work.
Bob Roller
And have the hammer in the fired position before doing this.
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Correct! Tripping a set trigger with the hammer in the half cock position could break stuff.
I haven't seen Herb or Phil Meek posting comments. I hope everything is OK. They're usually on top of Hawken posts. They have a lot of good information to contribute.
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Thanks, RAT. From all the original Hawkens I've seen in museums, and all the photos of Hawkens, I've never seen anything like this. I have nothing to offer. Regarding keys, if they are not pinned, they can be put in from either side. The Kit Carson Hawken originally had its key heads on the left, but someone pulled them and put them back with the heads on the right side. This was told to Carney and me by Don Stenberg, curator at the lodge in Sante Fe which has the rifle.
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The guard is like that on the silver plated (or silver) Atcheson J&S Hawken. That gun also had a single set trigger. The breech and tang are dead on for a J&S Hawken. The stock architecture is dead on. The keys and thimbles are right. The patchbox is of a form they favored (to my understanding they did not fabricate these). The barrel is of appropriate length and size. The use of a back action lock is not unprecedented for a Hawken rifle. I’m surprised the experts do not see all these features as fitting.
Atchison J&S Hawken. Notice the faceted buttplate. Notice the guard and single set trigger.
(https://i.ibb.co/G0J7bmD/72-AD2-E84-4846-4322-A4-D3-91-A5-BABE859-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Ns3xHRq)
(https://i.ibb.co/1LGTxrw/FEEBBAFA-ABF8-447-E-AD7-E-F634-F119-D792.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bP5Xns8)
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The Andrew Sublette (J & S Hawken) rifle also has a single set trigger. Both the Sublette and Atchison triggers have an adjustment screw behind the trigger.
Testing proved the mounts on the Atchison rifle (posted above) were "fine" silver... not plated. Note the separate iron heel on the buttplate in the photo above. As you pointed out, the comb part of the Atchison butt plate is also faceted. The trigger guards are similar, but not identical, so they aren't from the same pattern piece... not that they have to be.
looking at my photos of the Atchison, the barrel keys enter from the right side of the stock. Don't get too hung-up on Barrel key direction. They can go either way. Entering from the left side is just more common in general... probably a British thing.
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So I attempted to test the set trigger. I believe I followed the previous instructions. Hammer in fired position I attempted to push the trigger forward but it does not move or ‘click’. There is also no half cock of the hammer. There is only full. There is good print tension pulling the trigger with about 1/2” of travel. When the hammer is cocked there is no travel required for trigger break. It’s immediate. Obviously I did not dry fire the weapon, I rode the hammer forward. Am I missing anything. I’m not very familiar with these set triggers. The set screw is in front on the trigger instead of behind it and looks to be back out quite a ways.
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Could be a broken spring(s) could be rust or grime. Without disassembly its hard to say. BUT any disassembly, if done at all, needs to be done by someone knowledgeable.
No half-cock is common in later percussion locks.
The patch box.
Here is a photo of a box our guild president used in a presentation.
Its and iron box but similar to the one on this rifle.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZB7j2WY/02-EA2794-4-EF1-4660-A0-E0-0-EB7-F328-DF3-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5rw0KBn)
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Without seeing the rifle in person this is just a guess... but...
It sounds like it's just a simple trigger and not a set trigger. The trigger is simply rotating on a pivot and is not powered by a spring. The spring tension you feel is most probably coming from the sear spring in the lock. A gunsmith that's competent in restoration work could remove the lock, trigger guard, and triggers (not to mention the barrel) and that would provide a wealth of information. If you decide to go that route... please take pictures! Posting pictures helps all of us learn more. The screw coming in from the bottom just in front of the trigger must have another purpose.
The lock not having a half cock position probably has one of two answers. It's been broken off the tumbler over the years... or more likely the lock was made without a half cock notch on the tumbler. Locks without half cock notches are very common. It's not needed unless using set triggers, which would explain a simple (non-set) trigger being used here.
I would do 2 things before fooling with it anymore...
First, run a rod down the bore until it bottoms out, mark the rod even with the muzzle, pull it out, and lay it along side the barrel with the mark even with the muzzle. If the bottom end of the rod is a couple of inches forward of the breech... it means there's still a charge in the barrel. This will need to be removed by someone who knows how to do it.
Second, remove the lock and check the internals to make sure everything is intact and won't be damaged by further handling.
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Here's a photo of the trigger from the Atchison rifle. It came from an article in the April 1981 issue of Muzzle Blasts. Contact the National Muzzleloading Rifle Association if you want a copy of the article.
(https://i.ibb.co/HGZGxXZ/Trigger.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zPdP7Nd)
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OK... here are more photos of the Atchison single set trigger (from the same Muzzle Blasts article).
In this photo the trigger is "un-set". The red arrow points to the portion of the trigger that contacts the lock sear and fires the lock. The trigger can be pulled to fire the gun in this "un-set" position.
(https://i.ibb.co/hdYQrQp/Trigger-1a.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
In this photo the trigger is "set". When the trigger is pushed forward the top of it rotates until the"point" (green arrow) filed inside the hole at the top of the trigger changes it's position relative to the trigger spring (red arrow). The trigger is now held in the "set" position by how the spring acts upon this point. It's essentially a cam in operation. When the trigger is pressed slightly to the rear, the point will move past the roller at the end of the spring and the spring will force the rest of the trigger movement under spring tension. This provides a lighter trigger pull and more aggressive action upon the lock sear.
(https://i.ibb.co/kKdytM4/Trigger-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LSGP3vx)
The yellow arrow points to the adjustment screw. Screwing it in pushes the tip of the screw against the bottom rear of the trigger. This rotates the trigger, and the cam point at the top. Basically, when you screw the adjustment screw in, it requires less movement of the trigger to fire the lock when the trigger is in the set position.
There are other single set trigger designs that work differently. Double set triggers also work differently.
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That is an intriguing design. Thanks for the pictures. It also appears to be fairly simple one for home builders.
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It is an intriguing design for certain. My only criticism comes as a shooter...when you trip the trigger, it disappears from your finger. for me this would have an effect on my accuracy. I like triggers with limited backlash.
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It is an intriguing design for certain. My only criticism comes as a shooter...when you trip the trigger, it disappears from your finger. for me this would have an effect on my accuracy. I like triggers with limited backlash.
The French,Swiss and Brits had single set triggers that did not fly away from your finger and I copied a German design that was also like that and I made some for a German who was making target pistols.He called it Der Suhlerstecher or a trigger made in Suhl.(Zool)
The one shown here is a simplified type and I also made a simple trigger that would be easier to make than this one.It is like the single lever double set trigger and can hold the sear up after the gun is fired.I have made none for about 50 years.The one shown here is not as simple as it looks and I can see more labor in it than my old versions.
Bob Roller
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The guard is like that on the silver plated (or silver) Atcheson J&S Hawken. That gun also had a single set trigger. The breech and tang are dead on for a J&S Hawken. The stock architecture is dead on. The keys and thimbles are right. The patchbox is of a form they favored (to my understanding they did not fabricate these). The barrel is of appropriate length and size. The use of a back action lock is not unprecedented for a Hawken rifle. I’m surprised the experts do not see all these features as fitting.
Atchison J&S Hawken. Notice the faceted buttplate. Notice the guard and single set trigger.
(https://i.ibb.co/G0J7bmD/72-AD2-E84-4846-4322-A4-D3-91-A5-BABE859-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Ns3xHRq)
(https://i.ibb.co/1LGTxrw/FEEBBAFA-ABF8-447-E-AD7-E-F634-F119-D792.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bP5Xns8)
That lock plate is just like or very close to the very last caplock I made.It had a mechanism very much like that shown in the lock Molly posted.It is also like the lock on the Peterson Hawken in Woodfill's book on the Hawken rifle.
Bob Roller