AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Jdbeck on September 22, 2023, 06:41:46 PM
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Horst Auctioneers in Lancaster shared a beautiful JP Beck that came into their auction house today:
It’ll be sold at their October 20-21 auction.
https://www.horstauction.com/
(https://i.ibb.co/0MQCk0s/IMG-2941.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qsxNzHJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/C0sd9Lk/IMG-2936.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GP3wMmK)
(https://i.ibb.co/jRvNdtf/IMG-2934.jpg) (https://ibb.co/16fg3cQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/hcrcNXZ/IMG-2938.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qChC80W)
(https://i.ibb.co/72TKjtQ/IMG-2937.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dG3Dj4t)
(https://i.ibb.co/FmLy7mj/IMG-2935.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pbBMXb9)
(https://i.ibb.co/NFTkKRt/IMG-2940.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rQdLH9F)
(https://i.ibb.co/5vSQyjQ/IMG-2931.jpg) (https://ibb.co/J2GY4pY)
(https://i.ibb.co/Sdjvq9m/IMG-2933.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LJFp42g)
Total beauty!!
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Wow! How cool is that! Thank you for sharing.
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Very nice, thanks for sharing the images! :)
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You going to buy it, JD?
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I doubt I have the money for the winning bid. 🤣🤣 especially in this economy!
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NICE PIECE OF ART/AMERICANA--THANKS FOR POSTING!!!!!
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Very nice.
Does anyone know if this particular rifle is published ?
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Very nice indeed. You better buy that.
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JD,
Nice rifle, definitely seen use. The comb is worn down, reminds me of the Lion Rifle.
Good luck.
Buck
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Very nice rifle. Is this pictured or published anywhere or s this newly discovered?
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Very nice rifle. Is this pictured or published anywhere or s this newly discovered?
I would be curious to know, but the slimed down comb is identical to the rifle I posses, also the more straight butt plate.
I am going to see it Thursdays, hopefully I’ll be able to pull some measurements. And get
Some more photo, and ask about the provenance.
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JD, it has a lot of butt stock profile in common with your rifle!
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JD,
Good luck, fortunately for you the prices have plummeted. Louie Parkers Collection that sold at Morphy's a few weeks ago is an indicator.
Buck
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All I can do is try😉
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JD,
Nice rifle, definitely seen use. The comb is worn down, reminds me of the Lion Rifle.
Good luck.
Buck
I thought the same about the similarities in stocking. I don't think most of this is from wear. Think it was stocked very much like we see.
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I agree, a little wear on the comb, but I think the comb line is mostly original.
Long use for sure, with the forearm worn through to the ramrod hole!
JD, is this one signed?
Do they have an estimate on it yet?
John
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John,
Following the Morphy’s results - $10k to 15k on the high end. I wouldn’t pay more than that. Another year or 2 it’ll be worth $5k. I’d hold off, there will be others soon enough at basement prices.
Buck
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No provanance, it’s pretty rough with some repairs.
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It’s signed:
Video of rifle: permission from the Auction house.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxvoB6fLJeE/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
I believe the patch-box door could be a replacement, lock apears original. No change in barrel patina from lock to muzzle— expertly restored or original flint?
Only wood replacement is a tiny piece at ramrod pipe. Also appears to be a repaired crack to the buttstock bottom corner.
I’ll bid, but it’s a beautiful piece with carving forward the trigger guard, and front lock mortis. I won’t be a player🤣 maybe a few more years of saving.
(https://i.ibb.co/7NxVMsB/IMG-3058.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5xXvpbC)
(https://i.ibb.co/FVv7KSZ/IMG-3054.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pyDXxtV)
(https://i.ibb.co/kXWWFMh/IMG-3053.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vkKK8DJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/XtGxXcR/IMG-3051.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dDH4B8Y)
(https://i.ibb.co/D8wqXgg/IMG-3052.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MGPXT55)
(https://i.ibb.co/st6tSDQ/IMG-3055.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1bdbVpK)
(https://i.ibb.co/0Jn72xw/IMG-3059.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ryQj0VW)
(https://i.ibb.co/Pjr6HvB/IMG-3068.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dMf5Ywn)
(https://i.ibb.co/Yt0tJzW/IMG-3070.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jz3z8fd)
(https://i.ibb.co/BP4DYvH/IMG-2943.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8Bz3QGn)
(https://i.ibb.co/xjrTkfc/IMG-3025.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ncKJGnV)
(https://i.ibb.co/tc5S0bs/IMG-3023.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NpzX0Lj)
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If that's a reconversion, it's a fantastic job. Period. I'd be perfectly happy with it if it is, and this is coming from someone proudly designated a Curly, Larry or Moe by those who know all.
What makes you think the box lid may be a replacement? Genuine question.
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Based on the patina down the length of the barrel compared to the lock, I’m pretty confident it’s the original flintlock. So rare to see! Similar unbridled pan like the George Washington rifle: (https://i.ibb.co/CtxwWpJ/IMG-3077.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8BFmXnz)
The doors patina is a little different and lacks the level of oxidation I would expect on the inside, also the latch mechanism that engages the lever is much smaller than the other Becks I’ve examined. Also there is a silvery metal “possible soder” around the hinge. Could be a repair that I’m seeing?
It may be correct, it just caught my eye.
(https://i.ibb.co/xsG8XBR/IMG-3080.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wLCrBPx)
(https://i.ibb.co/7trG83j/IMG-3079.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZzchtQG)
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j.d. did you happen to measure the drop at the heel on that rifle or any others you have examined? I am planning a Beck style build am and having a hard time finding the drop dimensions of the heel and comb in any of the publications that feature his rifles.
Steve
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I didn’t have a straight edge with me,just the calipers. It was about 2 5/16 inches. The architecture in the gun was very similar to like an Isaac Haines.
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Dad sent me a message asking if I had heard of a builder named Beck? I was like uh..... heck yes!
So that landed me here, gonna be a heck of an auction!
Thanks for sharing all the additional info on it
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With the caveat that we're just looking at photos, I don't see anything that is screaming 'replacement' for the box lid. Possibly the hinge loosened up and it was soldered by way of repair at some point in the past but it sure does not look recent. There appear to be some visible file/scratch marks on the outside that may reinforce the idea of a repair but the bottom line to my way of thinking - that looks like a very old box lid.
These photos are not the greatest in the universe, but imho the great aspect here is that overall this gun does not seem to have been diddled very much if at all. I think all it could use is a little rust stabilization. Anything more and it becomes just another effed-up plasticized real wife of the Jersey shore.
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Jd, thanks for the reply, 2 5/16th seems reasonable, I found measurements of the Washington rifle and it is 2in at the heel. If you get a chance could you measure the drop at the heel on your rifle? you're the only person I am aware of who actually owns an original. You can message me if you don't want to reply here. I would really appreciate it.
Fwiw and you may be aware of all the following info, the rifle coming up for auction is the fifth J. P. Beck I know of with the whale tail patchbox. Beyer and J. P.'s son also used it.
i studied your pictures of the hinge and also noticed the appearance of "solder"? in that area. I'm with Eric on this as to an old repair. Cleaning the scale off after soldering would/could account for the difference in patina. Still trying to determine how he and Beyer made the "stops" on their boxes, Filing I'm thinking?
The comb line is not unusual either. Including your own as well as one in RCA II, rifles # 98,99, and 100 in Kindig's book are very similar and I believe the "lion Beck" was also.
Steve
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Eric the more I think about it, it probably is an old repair.
Bowman: My rifle had an early break in its life effecting the drop, so I would utilize a drop that suits you best, there’s a few examples of JP’s work changes in the drop. There’s more knowledge on this forum that could probably assist you more than I.
Any one have thoughts on the engraving?
The engraving on the patch box to my eye wasn’t fine line leaf and scroll work, reminded me of some Beyers engraving work.
Horst Auction JP Signed rifle:
(https://i.ibb.co/vYCcSmb/IMG-2936.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5FX1Pvd)
(https://i.ibb.co/xhZwmDM/IMG-2937.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8MkGz0j)
Beck:
(https://i.ibb.co/n6VKDd7/IMG-3129.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Gn1rVYW)
Beyer:
(https://i.ibb.co/MS1Zr5v/IMG-3130.jpg) (https://ibb.co/54jGmx0)
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To my eye there is a strangeness to the Beyer engraving. It has a jaggedness I have nvever seen before in my 40 + yrs of engraving. It’s jagged on both sides of the cut. True hammer and chisel is rough to an extent but iI’ve never seen it evenly rough on both sides.
Now admit I am more familiar with more contemporary engraving but a cut is a cut. I’ve taught engraving and have never seen cut lines like these. The beck looks right to me by the way.
Just my two cents
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JD - did you happen to get a photo of the carving behind the barrel tang?
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I got the carving forward the trigger guard,
And the sides of the tang carving, I thought I did, I guess phone didn’t snap the shot. It was a worn rococo vine with a leaf, between the leaf is a breast of life, with some incised carving as you would expect.
(https://i.ibb.co/pJHvj7t/IMG-3213.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xJnSqkp)
(https://i.ibb.co/FYWspvL/IMG-3212.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dpcbZ9w)
(https://i.ibb.co/LzqGq1C/IMG-3211.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hRnqnVK)
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It sold for $30,000 and taxes. I cannot play at that price yet. 😉 Maybe next time. “I was bidding online which included a 14% buyers premium.”
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Horst auctions have a 0% buyer's premium!
AL
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Horst auctions have a 0% buyer's premium!
AL
If you bid online the premium is 14%.
(https://i.ibb.co/mtmvzSK/IMG-3427.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0ZkBJQL)
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My bad! I was bidding online. Didn’t realize it was cheaper in person.
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I was the buyer of the Beck. I just got it today. It is exactly as it appears. It is an untouched, never fooled with, original flintlock rifle. It appears to be in the same condition as it was put up circa 200 years ago. I intend to keep it that way. Very rare for a Kentucky these days.
Al
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Congratulations Al, that’s a very nice rifle
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Congratulations, and it's very awesome of you not to diddle with it! I think it looks perfect exactly as-is; you got a spectacular piece.
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Nice job Al. That's a wonderful piece .
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I was the buyer of the Beck. I just got it today. It is exactly as it appears. It is an untouched, never fooled with, original flintlock rifle. It appears to be in the same condition as it was put up circa 200 years ago. I intend to keep it that way. Very rare for a Kentucky these days.
Al
Congratulations! Very few JP Becks are original flint, with the original lock. I was happy to handle the gun, but know I’d never win it, I certainly tried though! I’ll have to keep saving $.
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Congrats on your purchase! The straight butt plate looks early. Venture a guess on when it was made?
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I think one could be very safe with 18th century. The lack of bridle on the lock, the 2 inch butt, the slight curl of the trigger, the shape of the butt, and the caliber(.65) MIGHT suggest 1770-1780.
Al
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No offense Al but I doubt that very much. Between @1776 and the early 1780s, none of these guys were building civilian rifles - at least, they weren't supposed to be. Scott can fill in a lot more info in that regard. Also, based on the Crisdianborgey rifle and the one or two others that were clearly Beck based on that rifle (assuming you accept the signature), his early career appears to have been much more Reading in style. Whether he was apprenticed there or not I have no idea as I'm not a Beck expert. I'd have no problem at all viewing this as an early post-War rifle, say mid 1780s through 1790s, definitely 18th century, but I don't see any believable way of pushing it back to the pre-War years. JMHO.
Maybe George Rupp built it and decided that day to sign it as if he was Beck... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Eric,
I understand. Dating early Kentucky's is very problematic. I am very comfortable with dating it to the 18th century but without a dated rifle to go by it's still guess, at best.
Al
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Congratulations on winning this great early rifle!
I remember reading, probably here, probably SP Gordon, that some gunsmiths tasked with making military arms were caught making civilian arms instead, and were fined or threatened with fines.
Just a thought, John
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Yes, that's a great document! And it illustrates that as early as Dec 1775, authorities were already aware that they were going to need to keep an eye on makers of civilian arms. I will admit it's speculation, but I doubt by 1776 and into 1777 when things were REALLY heating up in the northern theater, that gunmakers were building fancy civilian arms as I think it's pretty evident from an assortment of other documentation that they had their hands full with stocking and repairing arms for the War effort. And that likely did not abate until late 1779 or early 1780 after the brits had abandoned Philly and the theater had moved south.
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I believe the only Berks County record I have seen for gunsmith Philip Beck was for him applying for 300 acres of land in Berks County in 1794. I think he bought the land from an Abraham Lauck. Abraham may have been his father in law? Beck did marry a Lauck so Beck may have met his wife while working in Berks maybe around 1770? The Lauck family in Berks is worthsome research - maybe Beck learned the trade from his father in law.
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I believe the only Berks County record I have seen for gunsmith Philip Beck was for him applying for 300 acres of land in Berks County in 1794. I think he bought the land from an Abraham Lauck. Abraham may have been his father in law? Beck did marry a Lauck so Beck may have met his wife while working in Berks maybe around 1770? The Lauck family in Berks is worthsome research - maybe Beck learned the trade from his father in law.
The father of JP Beck Johan Christian Beck arrived in 1749 to Philadelphia, he also purchased land in Lebanon in 1762, and was said to be a powdermaker.
There is a sale note of a Longrifle by Christian Beck in 1784 in the Hopewell Forge journal. This date excludes J.P’s Son Christian and his Nephew Christian Beck III. Both his Brother and father used the name Christian— likely his brother was also a gunsmith, as there is documentation of him selling “joiners tools”.
Christ Tulpehocken Lutheran Church in Richland, PA records show Anna Maria Lauk, daughter of Abraham Lauk, Married John Philip Beck on May 12, 1766 (both of them age 15???) So we know at this time period he was living between Lebanon and Wormelsdorf in that Myerstown region. Seems awful young to marry even for Colonial America- an arrangement with Abraham Lauk would make a lot of since in this context. Interesting idea that Abraham could have been his teacher of the craft.
JP Beck was assessed in Lebanon Township in 1780 as a gunsmith. This is the earliest I am aware of, besides the building rifles for the Committee of Safety.
The Salem Lutheran church where he was buried shows he married his second wife Barbara Boshar on the 8th of August, 1802.
One also has to tread lightly as there was a Moravian family with similar names and ages. Interestingly enough there was a Christian Gregory b. abt 1742 in Berks county, who also fought in the Rev war.
I’d love to get to some more historical societies, Lutheran church records, ect and try and figure out more on JP and where he was between 1766 and 1780. I think one has to align the rifles with where he was and it’ll help show the evolution of the builder…and maybe his teacher?
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I think if the Crisdianborgey (sp?) rifle is truly a JP Beck rifle (and I believe it is) - in other words, someone did not recycle a signed barrel - it's surely one of if not the earliest Beck rifles extant. And using that as a guidepost, there is at least one other unsigned rifle in RCA1 that is very obviously the same guy, maybe two, will have to go look back through the book. And I know of at least one other that matches up with this group that is not in the books. They all have a lot of early Berks characteristics but are very unique and do not look like the so-called 'Haga' group. I'd guess they may be all early 1770s, just prior to the outbreak of the War. If they are all indeed JP Beck, it would indicate to my mind that he had some *working* connection (apprenticeship? journeyman work?) to someone in the Reading area or working in that assumed style, and following the War, he then developed his own thing and stuck with it for the rest of his life.
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I think if the Crisdianborgey (sp?) rifle is truly a JP Beck rifle (and I believe it is) - in other words, someone did not recycle a signed barrel - it's surely one of if not the earliest Beck rifles extant. And using that as a guidepost, there is at least one other unsigned rifle in RCA1 that is very obviously the same guy, maybe two, will have to go look back through the book. And I know of at least one other that matches up with this group that is not in the books. They all have a lot of early Berks characteristics but are very unique and do not look like the so-called 'Haga' group. I'd guess they may be all early 1770s, just prior to the outbreak of the War. If they are all indeed JP Beck, it would indicate to my mind that he had some *working* connection (apprenticeship? journeyman work?) to someone in the Reading area or working in that assumed style, and following the War, he then developed his own thing and stuck with it for the rest of his life.
The Christian Gregory rifle features JP’s trigger guard, side plate, and his engraving, also it’s clearly his patchbox “notice the off center latch, the door has there tabs, and filled hinge”. The JP Beck brass hinge is unique to his work and does not change. The barrel tang is also JP’s. So without a doubt it’s Becks Hardware, but whether he made the carving who knows?
(https://i.ibb.co/B4GMgTV/IMG-4061.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jVzXL3v)
Compare to this Beck:
(https://i.ibb.co/6W23ZWk/IMG-4062.png) (https://ibb.co/bKxS3Kk)
However, the other rifle they argue is his, i highly doubt based on the patchbox, latch, butt plate, barrel tang, ect. Though similar architecture, the hardware is total different. This gun pictured below has nothing matching JP Beck, except the profile of the “Christian Gregory Rifle” and same carving motifs. The only signed Albrect rifle has an identical profile to a JP Beck and similar carving— so it’s not a good argument. I think this rifle is interesting but I’m not convinced, there’s without a
Doubt a connection between the two guns, but the hardware is so vastly different, two tab door, not the JP hinge, and the latch mechanism is completely different.
It’s as if two Gentlemen were building identical rifles with their own hardware. Reminds me of Bonewitz rifle that Reedy and Fichthorn made copies of (Research done by Henry Bishop).
(https://i.ibb.co/tK0c9HL/IMG-4060.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kBL0tGm)
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I was extremely suspicious of the CB rifle (I don't feel like trying to spell it out any more) when it first appeared but there are at least one or two others that are nearly identical to the bottom rifle - the RCA1 'Berks' rifle - and one of them is also signed by Beck. I'm not sure if it's been published or not because I can't keep track anymore, but I know I held it in my two grimy hands and it was signed. So to my mind, they're all tied together to the same maker and they're all JP Beck. It's not just me thinking this - there are quite a few guys who are a lot more into Beck than I who also believe this. I think these are all his earliest work and they do seem to point to an initial familiarity with work being done in Berks Co. just prior to and immediately after the War. To whom did he apprentice? I have no idea. There are a number of people whom I respect who seem to feel that Wolfgang Hachen had something of a "factory" going, similar to what Samuel Baum was doing later on, and various workmen were moving in and out. If so, I would suspect that perhaps Beck may have worked there for a time as a journeyman or something along the lines of a journeyman.
Would be very interested to hear what the serious Berks guys have to say about this. A few of these probably unpublished rifles have been floating around for a good while now so many folks surely have seen them.
I would not not put 100% stock into funishings or things like that; yes, it counts for something of course. But during the pre-War years, i am positive that a lot of scavenging was going on and also cast mounts were being sold out of most major population centers. Some imports, but many home brass founders were also selling gun furniture. I don't think anyone trying to make a living was too concerned with whether or not a triggerguard or a buttplate was ideal to the style he perhaps may have preferred to use. All that was needed was something to do the job.
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I was extremely suspicious of the CB rifle (I don't feel like trying to spell it out any more) when it first appeared but there are at least one or two others that are nearly identical to the bottom rifle - the RCA1 'Berks' rifle - and one of them is also signed by Beck. I'm not sure if it's been published or not because I can't keep track anymore, but I know I held it in my two grimy hands and it was signed. So to my mind, they're all tied together to the same maker and they're all JP Beck. It's not just me thinking this - there are quite a few guys who are a lot more into Beck than I who also believe this. I think these are all his earliest work and they do seem to point to an initial familiarity with work being done in Berks Co. just prior to and immediately after the War. To whom did he apprentice? I have no idea. There are a number of people whom I respect who seem to feel that Wolfgang Hachen had something of a "factory" going, similar to what Samuel Baum was doing later on, and various workmen were moving in and out. If so, I would suspect that perhaps Beck may have worked there for a time as a journeyman or something along the lines of a journeyman.
Would be very interested to hear what the serious Berks guys have to say about this. A few of these probably unpublished rifles have been floating around for a good while now so many folks surely have seen them.
I would not not put 100% stock into funishings or things like that; yes, it counts for something of course. But during the pre-War years, i am positive that a lot of scavenging was going on and also cast mounts were being sold out of most major population centers. Some imports, but many home brass founders were also selling gun furniture. I don't think anyone trying to make a living was too concerned with whether or not a triggerguard or a buttplate was ideal to the style he perhaps may have preferred to use. All that was needed was something to do the job.
Well you may argue that, and it’s possible the are JP. But JP clearly kept a style in his hardware and his side plates were hand made, ever JP Beck I’ve examined had a different proportions to his side
Plate. They are all similar in design, and easily identified, but are too far off to be from castings. His butplate and triggerguard however are definitely likely casted. It just seems odd for two guns feature almost identical carving but vastly different hardware. Especially when his hardware and design stayed constant for so long. Obviously no one knows and it’s all guess work. There’s definitely a connection between the guns without a doubt.
It’s an interesting thing to look at, I’d definitely love to see some other earlier Signed Becks, for my own experience.
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Congratulations Al, you did good :)
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Looking intothe name Borgey - it seems that this is actually the Family commonly known later as Burkey (Burkey / Berkey / Borgey). There was a Christian Berkey in Bern Township, Berks County that was named as a son in his father’s will in 1763, and inherited some “smith’s tools”. There was another Christian Borgey (aka Bergey) 1741-1819, who lived in Harleysville, Lower Salford Township, Montgomery County. I knew some Burkeys growing up in Berks, so it could very well be that a Berks Christian Berkey owned the gun pictured spelled borgey.
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I was extremely suspicious of the CB rifle (I don't feel like trying to spell it out any more) when it first appeared but there are at least one or two others that are nearly identical to the bottom rifle - the RCA1 'Berks' rifle - and one of them is also signed by Beck. I'm not sure if it's been published or not because I can't keep track anymore, but I know I held it in my two grimy hands and it was signed. So to my mind, they're all tied together to the same maker and they're all JP Beck. It's not just me thinking this - there are quite a few guys who are a lot more into Beck than I who also believe this. I think these are all his earliest work and they do seem to point to an initial familiarity with work being done in Berks Co. just prior to and immediately after the War. To whom did he apprentice? I have no idea. There are a number of people whom I respect who seem to feel that Wolfgang Hachen had something of a "factory" going, similar to what Samuel Baum was doing later on, and various workmen were moving in and out. If so, I would suspect that perhaps Beck may have worked there for a time as a journeyman or something along the lines of a journeyman.
Would be very interested to hear what the serious Berks guys have to say about this. A few of these probably unpublished rifles have been floating around for a good while now so many folks surely have seen them.
I would not not put 100% stock into funishings or things like that; yes, it counts for something of course. But during the pre-War years, i am positive that a lot of scavenging was going on and also cast mounts were being sold out of most major population centers. Some imports, but many home brass founders were also selling gun furniture. I don't think anyone trying to make a living was too concerned with whether or not a triggerguard or a buttplate was ideal to the style he perhaps may have preferred to use. All that was needed was something to do the job.
I have to agree with Eric on not putting too much stock into the furnishings on Beck's earliest rifles. If you look at RCA volume 2 (rifles 98-101), you will see three of the four rifles have one or more atypical furnishings for Beck. Whether he cast them ( which he clearly was capable of) himself or purchased them really doesn't matter to me as I think they looked at things much differently than we do today. Beck also seemed to stick to the earlier styles through out his career and often used wider butt plates into the later part of his career.
Debnal, Congratulations on your purchase! You did well.
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I appreciate all the comments on the Beck. I got the rifle for my bid, no premium, no taxes, just shipping. Horst auctions id a very good auction company. The only problem is that they do not get good guns very often. If only Morphy's, Rock Island and Poulin's were that way.
i have been a member of the KRA for 44 years and have had a lot of low end Kentuckies. This is the first great gun I have owned. It took a long time but I am thrilled.
Al
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This is the first great gun I have owned.
Well, you've posted some pretty cool pieces here lo these many years, but one thing I can't argue about is just how great this rifle looks to be! Very happy for you.
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Eric,
I primarily collect identified Rev War guns. Pretty myopically focused. But this is the best rifle I have ever had.
Al
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IMHO, the best thing about your purchase is the fact that it is an "unmolested rifle". rare indeed. On a side note, I'm not sure how familiar you are with Beck guns but when this rifle showed up it became the sixth documented rifle by J. P. with a whale tail patchbox that I'm aware of.
Steve
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I was extremely suspicious of the CB rifle (I don't feel like trying to spell it out any more) when it first appeared but there are at least one or two others that are nearly identical to the bottom rifle - the RCA1 'Berks' rifle - and one of them is also signed by Beck. I'm not sure if it's been published or not because I can't keep track anymore, but I know I held it in my two grimy hands and it was signed. So to my mind, they're all tied together to the same maker and they're all JP Beck. It's not just me thinking this - there are quite a few guys who are a lot more into Beck than I who also believe this. I think these are all his earliest work and they do seem to point to an initial familiarity with work being done in Berks Co. just prior to and immediately after the War. To whom did he apprentice? I have no idea. There are a number of people whom I respect who seem to feel that Wolfgang Hachen had something of a "factory" going, similar to what Samuel Baum was doing later on, and various workmen were moving in and out. If so, I would suspect that perhaps Beck may have worked there for a time as a journeyman or something along the lines of a journeyman.
Would be very interested to hear what the serious Berks guys have to say about this. A few of these probably unpublished rifles have been floating around for a good while now so many folks surely have seen them.
I would not not put 100% stock into funishings or things like that; yes, it counts for something of course. But during the pre-War years, i am positive that a lot of scavenging was going on and also cast mounts were being sold out of most major population centers. Some imports, but many home brass founders were also selling gun furniture. I don't think anyone trying to make a living was too concerned with whether or not a triggerguard or a buttplate was ideal to the style he perhaps may have preferred to use. All that was needed was something to do the job.
Well you may argue that, and it’s possible the are JP. But JP clearly kept a style in his hardware and his side plates were hand made, ever JP Beck I’ve examined had a different proportions to his side
Plate. They are all similar in design, and easily identified, but are too far off to be from castings. His butplate and triggerguard however are definitely likely casted. It just seems odd for two guns feature almost identical carving but vastly different hardware. Especially when his hardware and design stayed constant for so long. Obviously no one knows and it’s all guess work. There’s definitely a connection between the guns without a doubt.
It’s an interesting thing to look at, I’d definitely love to see some other earlier Signed Becks, for my own experience.
Eric, the rifle you may be thinking of is RCA #31 "The barrel of the rifle llustrated here is signed with two script initials that are not entirely clear, the first being either an "I" or a "J" and the second probably "H", "P", "B", or "R" (Shumway). you either held this rifle or there is a fourth. Either way RCA 30(patchbox pictured in earlier post), RCA 31 and the Christian Gregory rifle were all made by the same hand in my opinion an exhibit pretty strong evidence for those in the made by Beck camp. I have no idea on where he learned the trade, It was obviously east of Lebanon, but the Haga connection is only conjecture as far as I'm concerned. I think the neighborhood of Womelsdorf is most likely and wolfgang worked in Reading according to published data.
Steve
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Congrats on your purchase . I think it is a wonderful rifle that would be hard to upgrade !!
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Al, It doesn't matter what year this was made . It is a grand rifle any of us here would love to have. Jim
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Eric, the rifle you may be thinking of is RCA #31 "The barrel of the rifle llustrated here is signed with two script initials that are not entirely clear, the first being either an "I" or a "J" and the second probably "H", "P", "B", or "R" (Shumway). you either held this rifle or there is a fourth. Either way RCA 30(patchbox pictured in earlier post), RCA 31 and the Christian Gregory rifle were all made by the same hand in my opinion an exhibit pretty strong evidence for those in the made by Beck camp. I have no idea on where he learned the trade, It was obviously east of Lebanon, but the Haga connection is only conjecture as far as I'm concerned. I think the neighborhood of Womelsdorf is most likely and wolfgang worked in Reading according to published data.
Steve
I'm not talking about 31 - I have not seen that one first hand, although given what George wrote about the markings, I suspect it actually is a JP Beck signature. 30 is not signed, but there is another rifle that I don't think has been published that is almost identical to 30 (including wire along box) and that too, like the Chrisdian-whatever rifle, is signed JP Beck. And that one I have seen first-hand including the CG or CB rifle, both side by side. I don't consider myself an expert on Beck as his style is not quite my obsessive interest, but I am firmly convinced at this point that all 4 rifles are Beck and are representative of his early career. It would seem he clearly had some connection one way or another to Berks Co and likely the Reading area in particular. Whether he was working for Hachen, or someone else in the area (as Dave M has pointed out frequently, there were a number of other guys working there too), he obviously picked up on that form or style early on before changing his style and sticking with the newer form as illustrated by this auction rifle for the rest of his life.
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Eric,
Over the years I recall a story that W Haga, Hachen, Hawken (whatever) his Brother John Christian or John Christians father (of Hawken fame) and Beck all came over on the same boat from the old country together (Switzerland). This was extensively researched by a gentleman by the name of Greg Adler (I think) whose wife was the 10th plus great grand daughter of JP Beck. That’s probably not entirely correct as I can’t find the emails and my memory isn’t as sharp as it used to be. The point to this is he claimed they all landed in Reading, worked for a time there and then dispersed from that point to their respective final destinations. So, to your point, Reading was the starting point (according to him). I would also add that he had the name of the ship and claimed to have a copy of the manifest which bore the name of the three. He had planned on writing a book, unfortunately his health took a turn for the worst and I lost contact with him.
Buck
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I've never heard that, but it should be somewhat easy to verify via the palatine ship lists and pretty much all of them, or most of them, are online now in various places. Not just ancestry, which I do not trust unless verified. There used to be a site called 'the palatine project' that also was involved very seriously with the ship lists but I haven't checked it out in couple of years now. And there were some other sites also that I have bookmarked but haven't visited in a while - will have to look into this. Possibly JDBeck here has some info on this?
JP would have been considerably younger than the Hachens. I don't know enough about him to know whether he was born here or was brought here as a child but frankly that doesn't matter much in this case. the interesting point of reasearch would be to figure out with whom he may have apprenticed, because as far as I'm concerned, he clearly was initially working in the Reading style with his own twist so it would seem to be indicative of an apprenticeship or journeyman time somewhere in or around Reading. The Christian-whatever rifle and 30/31, and the added piece that I handled, are all very Berks but at that same time very unique. I don't look at them as apprentice pieces, more likely journeyman level pieces as they are all exttremely comptetent. None of them were his first rodeo!
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Eric, the rifle you may be thinking of is RCA #31 "The barrel of the rifle llustrated here is signed with two script initials that are not entirely clear, the first being either an "I" or a "J" and the second probably "H", "P", "B", or "R" (Shumway). you either held this rifle or there is a fourth. Either way RCA 30(patchbox pictured in earlier post), RCA 31 and the Christian Gregory rifle were all made by the same hand in my opinion an exhibit pretty strong evidence for those in the made by Beck camp. I have no idea on where he learned the trade, It was obviously east of Lebanon, but the Haga connection is only conjecture as far as I'm concerned. I think the neighborhood of Womelsdorf is most likely and wolfgang worked in Reading according to published data.
Steve
I'm not talking about 31 - I have not seen that one first hand, although given what George wrote about the markings, I suspect it actually is a JP Beck signature. 30 is not signed, but there is another rifle that I don't think has been published that is almost identical to 30 (including wire along box) and that too, like the Chrisdian-whatever rifle, is signed JP Beck. And that one I have seen first-hand including the CG or CB rifle, both side by side. I don't consider myself an expert on Beck as his style is not quite my obsessive interest, but I am firmly convinced at this point that all 4 rifles are Beck and are representative of his early career. It would seem he clearly had some connection one way or another to Berks Co and likely the Reading area in particular. Whether he was working for Hachen, or someone else in the area (as Dave M has pointed out frequently, there were a number of other guys working there too), he obviously picked up on that form or style early on before changing his style and sticking with the newer form as illustrated by this auction rifle for the rest of his life.
Good deal, now we know there are four rifles most likely built by J. P. that clearly demonstrate his connection to the Berks co/ Reading area. when I saw the C. G. rifle come up for auction a few years ago I thought "No Way" just more hype to sell a rifle for top bucks and probably a restock. Then cruising thru my RCA books began to have my doubts when I was studying the Reading section and spied the similarities on 30 and 31. I was actually gonna throw it out on this forum for discussion at some point until this thread came up, no need now. The fact that you have had your grubby hands-LOL on two of the four rifles certainly clears things up in my mind. I don't get a chance to get my grubby hands on many old rifles here in Indiana-LOL
Buck, Eric, The Beck who may have come over with Haga would have to have been J. P's father as J. P. was born in 1751 in Lebanon. Also could have been an entirely differnt person named Beck for that matter. If a researcher(J. D. here's a good project for you :)) were to confirm that ship manifest Buck mentions it would go along way in connecting J. P. to Haga as a likely suspect for apprentice or journeyman.
Steve
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Steve / Eric,
Again, this was 12 years ago and unfortunately I don’t have the communications or the memory to recall the complete discussion.
Buck
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Yeah I know Greg Allard, we spoke at length when I was doing my research for the website, sadly his time is dedicated to the care of his wife.
JP Becks father was Johan Christian Heinrich Beck who came over
On the ship “The dragon” in 1749. He purchased land in Lebanon in 1762. And we know JP was in the Myerstown area in 1766 due to his wedding/ church records.
Greg confirmed this, I confirmed this, and Van Pitman all independent of each others research.
I don’t see any Reading names…. But this is interesting, I’m here to learn after all, and share😝
(https://i.ibb.co/C8L2PbL/IMG-4130.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dMZgmPZ)
That’s awesome to learn there’s another Reading rifle. Honestly it would be beneficial to get a group of these guns together and be studied.
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I don't know if the other signed Reading-looking signed piece has been published, or photographed, but I know there are others here that know all about it because it was at the show when Mike first displayed the Chrisdian--- rifle and it was an 'under the table' subject of much conversation. So maybe some others here will chime in with more info. I have no idea if or what the Reading connection may be, but they all clearly look like Reading rifles and nothing like his later work, so there must be some there there. Unless there were two JP Becks? :o (I jest, but at the same time... :o )
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I don't know if the other signed Reading-looking signed piece has been published, or photographed, but I know there are others here that know all about it because it was at the show when Mike first displayed the Chrisdian--- rifle and it was an 'under the table' subject of much conversation. So maybe some others here will chime in with more info. I have no idea if or what the Reading connection may be, but they all clearly look like Reading rifles and nothing like his later work, so there must be some there there. Unless there were two JP Becks? :o (I jest, but at the same time... :o )
Yeah the Chrisdian gun features all his hardware and patchbox hinge. So if there’s another—that’s a smoking gun, that could include the other similar rifles. It’s interesting, I expect more of this mystery to be solved in due time.
I would like to compare that Berks unsigned with John Groffs rifle:
(https://i.ibb.co/4MSkxTK/IMG-4134.jpg) (https://ibb.co/924PjTc)
(https://i.ibb.co/RykncrR/IMG-4135.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k1snXbN)
If that rifle is a JP Beck, that leads me to think of a new connection: A lot of similarities between these two rifles— definitely a connection between Groff and Beck in my opinion. Both patch boxes feature wire inlay along the door with brass studs, also the Groff hinge is filed, in a manner similar to JP. Also Groffs carving is interesting to look at in this context, and two lines cut into a 5 in buttplate, similar to Beck. Groff was neighbors with Haga / Hachen.. Possible Apprentice/ Master relationship?
During the War JP was repairing arms for the Committee of Safety, he would have handled a plethora of Charlevilles, Brown Bess’ and fusils’. Which could explain his change of architecture to a more straight military profile into his stocks. Also explains his Fowler’s featuring all the French hardware.
(https://i.ibb.co/PWMnhbS/IMG-4145.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3FvqN8J)
(https://i.ibb.co/wz89pWV/IMG-4146.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vjf7LPp)
(https://i.ibb.co/b5gDvfJ/IMG-4144.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RTpd65y)
(https://i.ibb.co/PmCDP2h/IMG-4067.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M2NBtzV)
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I don't know if the other signed Reading-looking signed piece has been published, or photographed, but I know there are others here that know all about it because it was at the show when Mike first displayed the Chrisdian--- rifle and it was an 'under the table' subject of much conversation. So maybe some others here will chime in with more info. I have no idea if or what the Reading connection may be, but they all clearly look like Reading rifles and nothing like his later work, so there must be some there there. Unless there were two JP Becks? :o (I jest, but at the same time... :o )
Eric, there were actually three JP Becks, ;D, The other two were father and son and lived in Bethel township,now a part of Lebanon Co, but in Dauphin Co at that time. NO relation though, they were Moravian farmers.
JD, thanks for posting the manifest, looks like Wolfgang "missed the boat" so nothing there connecting him to the Becks. Still doesn't rule him out though. There is a connection in that the Becks, and our mister Haga were reformed Lutherans though of different congregations. Interesting you threw Graff into the mix, he's a real potential candidate based on your comments as master to JP. And yes, it would be cool to get the guns with the reading look together, Heck I'd settle for handling just one, I'would even bring my white gloves--LOL
Steve
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I’m not sure where the “rumor” came from that Beck was on the same ship as Wolfgang Haga/Hagen – but all sources of ship’s registers show Haga on the ship, Sandwich arriving Philadelphia in November 1750. Beck arrived in Philadelphia on the Dragon as JD Beck says, about 2 years before Haga. Although Haga settled quickly – his shop blew up in 1752- it appears Beck may have been in America two years before Haga.
Unfortunately, we have no certain record of where Beck first settled and since Haga came from Switzerland and Beck from Germany it seems they would not have known each other until getting to America – if then.
By the way, Benedict Imhoff, a gunsmith from Switzerland was on the same ship as Haga. Imhoff is shown as an early gunsmith in Reading and later in Womelsdorf before Bonewitz.
As to the caption in the RevWar book, Groff, who is usually referred to as Graef in Reading records was much younger than Haga and he is more often shown as a locksmith than a gunsmith, and I found no evidence of either Haga or Graef ever working in Exeter, which I doubt was even settled in the 1750s. And they were not buried in the same cemetery, albeit they practiced in Lutheran churches and I’m not clear why Shreit is out-of-hand mentioned in the same caption, who owned property in Cumru Township, not Crum Township.
This so-called Graef rifle in the book is one of 5 or 6 very similar rifles using wire inlay and plain two-piece patchbox like #30-31, with very simple carving behind the cheekpiece. One is now in The Metropolitan Museum NY. I say “so-called” Graef because I know of no verifiable evidence to show a Graef, Graff or even a Groff made these rifles, although they sure look like Reading rifles. It is a personal opinion that Graef translates to Groff and I'd question that interpretation, given the dominance of the name, Groff around every "dutchy" corner in Berks County.
And for what it’s worth, an upcoming article in the KRA Bulletin will show that Haga’s name should be quoted as Haga or referred to by his formal surname, Hagen – but not Hachen.
Patrick Hornberger
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And for what it’s worth, an upcoming article in the KRA Bulletin will show that Haga’s name should be quoted as Haga or referred to by his formal surname, Hagen – but not Hachen.
I look forward to reading this article! And I'll be interested in how it makes sense of receipts such as this, in which the English speakers use "Haga" but the gunsmith himself signs, clearly, "Wolfgang Hachen."
(https://i.ibb.co/FW2CLST/Wolfgang-Hachen.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vBpR67n)
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I’m not sure where the “rumor” came from that Beck was on the same ship as Wolfgang Haga/Hagen – but all sources of ship’s registers show Haga on the ship, Sandwich arriving Philadelphia in November 1750. Beck arrived in Philadelphia on the Dragon as JD Beck says, about 2 years before Haga. Although Haga settled quickly – his shop blew up in 1752- it appears Beck may have been in America two years before Haga.
Unfortunately, we have no certain record of where Beck first settled and since Haga came from Switzerland and Beck from Germany it seems they would not have known each other until getting to America – if then.
By the way, Benedict Imhoff, a gunsmith from Switzerland was on the same ship as Haga. Imhoff is shown as an early gunsmith in Reading and later in Womelsdorf before Bonewitz.
As to the caption in the RevWar book, Groff, who is usually referred to as Graef in Reading records was much younger than Haga and he is more often shown as a locksmith than a gunsmith, and I found no evidence of either Haga or Graef ever working in Exeter, which I doubt was even settled in the 1750s. And they were not buried in the same cemetery, albeit they practiced in Lutheran churches and I’m not clear why Shreit is out-of-hand mentioned in the same caption, who owned property in Cumru Township, not Crum Township.
This so-called Graef rifle in the book is one of 5 or 6 very similar rifles using wire inlay and plain two-piece patchbox like #30-31, with very simple carving behind the cheekpiece. One is now in The Metropolitan Museum NY. I say “so-called” Graef because I know of no verifiable evidence to show a Graef, Graff or even a Groff made these rifles, although they sure look like Reading rifles. It is a personal opinion that Graef translates to Groff and I'd question that interpretation, given the dominance of the name, Groff around every "dutchy" corner in Berks County.
And for what it’s worth, an upcoming article in the KRA Bulletin will show that Haga’s name should be quoted as Haga or referred to by his formal surname, Hagen – but not Hachen.
Patrick Hornberger
I’m only as good as the information I have access too. And far too often are the books wrong. It’s why I bring up my ideas and theories—discussions lead to knowledge. I greatly appreciate your response, it was very informative!
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I have a hard time figuring out how the last name "Hachen" at the bottom of the receipt is spelled, even when enlarged. The small letter "h" in the middle doesn't look much like an "h" to me but more like an "f," and the capital "H" doesn't look much like a capital "H" either. Is this how his signature normally is found, or looks, when he signed other documents?
Shelby Gallien
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I have a hard time figuring out how the last name "Hachen" at the bottom of the receipt is spelled, even when enlarged. The small letter "h" in the middle doesn't look much like an "h" to me but more like an "f," and the capital "H" doesn't look much like a capital "H" either. Is this how his signature normally is found, or looks, when he signed other documents?
It is old German script, which uses different characters. In the 1776 receipt each character, including the capital "H" and the lower-case "h" in the surname, looks exactly as it should. It is unmistakably "Hachen."
There is at least one other document (from the First Reformed Church, in Reading, 1760s) with Hachen's signature, second from the bottom, which looks just like it does in the 1776 receipt:
(https://i.ibb.co/pPNnzGv/Hachen-signature-First-Reformed-Church-Reading.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vBfDPgx)
I've also pointed out, in that document, another capital "H" and lower-case "h."
Probably insignificant to those interested in Hachen, but the signature from the 1760s is much "better" than that from 1776. Letters that in German script are typically connected ("ch") are in the earlier signature but not in the later; and the "e" in Hachen in the earlier document looks more like what an "e" is supposed to look like. In the 1776 receipt, Hachen's vertical strokes are clear (check out the "n" in Wolfgang and in Hachen) but the parts that ought to connect those two vertical strokes just aren't there. Maybe just a matter of haste, or the pen he was using, who knows.
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Thank you for the good explanation of the old German lettering... so I know what I'm looking at now.
Shelby Gallien