AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Jerry on December 22, 2023, 02:59:59 PM
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Which black powder burns cleaner, Swiss or Shutzen? Thanks, Jerry
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Most of the shooters I know will say as a general rule Swiss shoots cleaner.
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Scheutzen is the most godawfull dirty stuff you ever saw. Swiss is the cleanest burning to me. My 2 cents.
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In my BPCR, Swiss 1.5 shoots identically to GOEX 1F & 2F as to accuracy and fouling, which I find quite amazing.
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Scheutzen is the most godawfull dirty stuff you ever saw. Swiss is the cleanest burning to me. My 2 cents.
I've noticed no difference in my .50 or .69, Bob.
Interesting. In the .50, I had to use 90gr. 2F Schutzen and 10 ounce denim patch with .495" ball.(up 5 gr.)
In the .69, I use a .682" ball and 10 once denim. Now, for lube, I've used, WWWF + a tich of oil,
spit, WSOil and water: 10:1 as well as LehighValley Lube. They all seemed to shoot about identically
with those combinations. What I did find interesting other than having to use 5gr. MORE Schutzen than
GOEX in the .50, I had to increase the powder charge in the .69, to 110gr. on the measure from 85gr., weight
at that setting or 110gr. threw 113gr. 2F Schutzen. No difference in fouling, not in the bucket of water when cleaning.
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Interesting. Perhaps my observation was from only shooting that powder in my large bore smooth guns but I've never been as filthy from head to toe as when shooting Scheutzen. Admittedly my Scheutzen powder is some years old and I can get dirty clicking two matchsticks together. Maybe they cleaned it up. I'll defer to you on that.
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Can't say, Bob. Mine is only 2 or 3 years old. ;)
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Can't say, Bob. Mine is only 2 or 3 years old. ;)
Mine is about 5 years old. It too burns dirty and hard. It gives lower velocities than my goex as well, it does shoot though and that’s a good thing.
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Swiss. And you can use a little less powder for a given velocity
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Swiss 1.5F is slightly more dense than GOEX powders. A measure that holds 78gr. 3F GOEX, holds 85gr. 1.5 Swiss.
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One of these days I’m gonna have to try some Swiss.
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I tried Swiss back when I was shooting BPCR and found no advantage in using it and the fouling was or seemed to be like a thin crust.
If I ever do any more black powder shooting I will support the American products in powder and caps.
Bob Roller
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My opinion is that Swiss makes less fouling, but it is harder fouling. I prefer Goex for that reason.
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The plant where Goex is now made is not capable of making a quality sporting grade powder since it uses a roller press. Or so I was told by Mad Monk. It was meant for fuze and booster powder for the US military as a backup plant since it was critical to have BP. The plus is that they no longer use water contaminated with sulfur oxidizing bacteria as was done a Moosic.
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Swiss 1.5F is slightly more dense than GOEX powders. A measure that holds 78gr. 3F GOEX, holds 85gr. 1.5 Swiss.
Nifty. I have never weighed it before. That should bring levels up to what the old BPC carried
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Mike,
Brett Gibbon's book on powder has details in it about this.
He also wrote that when he didn't have home-made powder 1 1/2 Swiss was as close as one could get to the old cartridge powder for the P '53 rifle musket.
Mods may clobber this as a bit new. :-)
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I agree with Marcruger I find Swiss cleaner but a hard glaze especially with heavy charges. With the one .54 I use at longer range I get slightly better group at 100 yards than Goex, but so little not worth it.
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I just did a little experiment between GOEX OE that has been in a horn for 'some ' time, against somewhat fresher Schutzen 2F & from a part can of Swiss 1.5F.
I used the same adjustable measure setting of 80gr. I filled the measure, then tapped it with a long brass ctg. case until it would settle no more, then re-filled and tapped until
even with the top surface. I was surprised at the outcome.
3F O.E. --------83.7gr.
2F Schutzen--89.7gr.
1.5F Swiss----89.4gr. Due to this being less than Schutzen, I thought perhaps evaporation of what moisture was in the Swiss, might have made it lighter.
So - I opened a fresh can of Swiss 1.5gr. and got: 89.4gr.
So- I repeated the 2F Schutzen test and got: 89.8, thus virtually the same as the first test. It's quite dense, it seems.
I opened a fresh can of Schutzen 3F and repeated the test, same measure and method and got 89.6gr. ie:powder measure set at 80gr. mark.
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Interesting. Would the smaller granules of the 2f fill the same volume more than the larger granules of the 1&1\2f ?
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The 3F Schutzen vs. 2F Schutzen 'trial' should answer that. They were within .1 to .2gr. weight, so the same stricken measure weighed the same.
I would suggest that even though the 2F Schutzen weighed a couple 10th's more than 1.5 Swiss that they were very close in density.
Now, what might be interesting is a further comparison between 3F 2F and 1.5F Swiss.
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I find, that using the proper lube renders it to be a non issue. I shoot goex and schutzen
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I think I should note again, I tapped the measure to settle the powder. I did note, though, that the Swiss powder did not settle as much
as the Schutzen nor the GOEX Old Enysford. This is likely due to the shinier grains of powder, packing better in the first 'throw'. Thus my
test above, shows that when 'packing' the measure to it's limit, therefore exactly the same volume, the weights are almost identical. On
the other hand this also means that if simply throwing a stricken measure, then pouring that into the barrel, there will be MORE (a greater
volume) of Swiss than the other 'stricken' charges of different powder.
Shinier does not mean graphite to me. It means it is polished/tumbled more to make smoother granules. Any graphite I have seen (I have a
canister of powdered graphite) is dull. I suppose it does shine up when rubbed between two fingers, though.
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I use Swiss, Schuetzen, and Goex. But my favorite is definitely Swiss.
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goex is where my dough goes, not overseas if i have a say so. and BTW, all BP is dirty! if you use the right patch lube, dawn and water, it makes no difference anyway,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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I find the same WOLF, with EVERY powder I have used, due to the combinations I also use.
Rain or shine, high humidity, low humidity, no difference.
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Looking for a "clean" black powder is like looking for a skunk that sprays Versace.
I've used much more Goex than anything else and then "rebranded" powder by Goex. I burned a good bit of Elephant - but we all have to settle for what we can get - a little Swiss (limited experience in the .32) and maybe something else I forgot. If I can afford it and it works I'll use it. And for the life of me I cannot actually tell a difference in the fouling left by the powders mentioned.
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I gave a 16 bore rifle with a Nock patent breech. I have always used Swiss FF. I tried Schuetzen and it made flakes of fouling in the bore that stopped the rifle from firing until I “primed” the vent to put enough FFFF in the antechamber to make it go. Never tried Goex. And I would point out that back in the day, mid-19th c on, most of the serious target shooters used Curtis and Harvey Diamond Grain. Swiss is the closest thing to it. The specific gravity of the powder can help control the burn rate on a chemically fast powder (a little more Potassium Nirtate). Softer/less dense powder will burn a little faster but may not be as ballistically uniform. Powder that is pressed excessively and thus has a higher specific gravity can also exhibit wider velocity variations. Elephant fell into this trap with some of their lots. Or so Mad Monk told me.
Swiss will cause some strange fouling things at high loading levels. I have seen this in proving barrels and in shooting 120 gr of FFF in a 58. 140 gr of FF Swiss in the 16 bore is about as clean as one could expect with BP. This BTW is about 32% of ball weight and gives 1600 fps +-. With 66 gr weight of FFF Swiss the Kibler Colonial in 54 makes 1650 +-. This will shoot flat enough for most hunting with a RB. I suspect that with 90 it would be around 1900. Colonel Hanger mentioned that a Kentucky he acquired would use 1/2 ball weight of powder “without the slightest recoil”. I suspect this rifle would have been about 50 caliber. But would have to did and see if he mentioned the specific caliber bit he did state he never saw an American rifle larger than 28 to the pound IIRC. He served with the British Army during the American War for Independence.
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32% of ball weight for me would be 154gr. of powder. As a hunting load, I use 165gr. 2F GOEX which delivers roughly 1,550fps with the 482gr. ball.
There is zero fouling trouble for shot after shot. Even with non-lubricated ctgs. tight enough to give the same accuracy as patched balls, shot after shot
to a total of 10. Then a 'fouling cleaning' shot of 3 drams (82gr. 2F) and a wet patched ball, would allow me another accurate 10 paper ctg. shots. In those
ctgs. I was loading 165gr. 2F GOEX, same as a patched round ball hunting load.
When testing with the 165gr. 2F GOEX charge and wet-patched round ball, my shot to shot variation in 10 shots, was 8fps. This was in 1986 when that rifle was built(by Taylor).
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32% of ball weight for me would be 154gr. of powder. As a hunting load, I use 165gr. 2F GOEX which delivers roughly 1,550fps with the 482gr. ball.
There is zero fouling trouble for shot after shot. Even with non-lubricated ctgs. tight enough to give the same accuracy as patched balls, shot after shot
to a total of 10. Then a 'fouling cleaning' shot of 3 drams (82gr. 2F) and a wet patched ball, would allow me another accurate 10 paper ctg. shots. In those
ctgs. I was loading 165gr. 2F GOEX, same as a patched round ball hunting load.
When testing with the 165gr. 2F GOEX charge and wet-patched round ball, my shot to shot variation in 10 shots, was 8fps. This was in 1986 when that rifle was built(by Taylor).
I calculated Forsythe’s trajectories some years back with his 14 bore rifle about the same as yours and he was apparently shooting FFF grade powder, Halls #2, and was getting a velocity very similar to yours and mine. Assuming the #2 is the same +- as Swiss #2.
My Nock breeched rifle does not foul badly with FF Swiss, no problems at all and I have never checked the standard deviation. Just enough to get a velocity.
He did say his rifle with a number 15 ball hardened with Mercury (!!) would shoot through and Indian Elephants head from side to side.
Guess I could run his trajectories with a more modern ballistics program but all of them are questionable with BCs that start with .0.
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Looking for a "clean" black powder is like looking for a skunk that sprays Versace.
I've used much more Goex than anything else and then "rebranded" powder by Goex. I burned a good bit of Elephant - but we all have to settle for what we can get - a little Swiss (limited experience in the .32) and maybe something else I forgot. If I can afford it and it works I'll use it. And for the life of me I cannot actually tell a difference in the fouling left by the powders mentioned.
Depends on the definition of “clean”. Round ball guns are pretty forgiving but some powders in some rifles, bore sizes and charge weights can cause issues. Some 54s and a 58 I proved with Swiss sometimes causes issues. The 58 made some real hard white fouling. I proved it with FFF and its possible FF might not do that. Bill Knight said it was likely the burn rate of the powder, the charge weight and the bore size making for a perfect storm of temperature to give the white fouling. But I have been shooting 62 gr of FFF Swiss in a 40 and not significant fouling in 20 shots of so. All flintlocks.
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I have no problems, complaint's of Schutzen black powder is dirty try a wet patch or one thing or another , I wonder if Boone had all this contemplation about shooting ?
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For the last year of monthly matches(I missed the summer-fishing), I've been using Schutzen 2F in my .69 target rifle (I don't hunt moose any more) & I found I had to
up my powder charge from 85gr. to 113gr. to get the same point of impact as the smaller charge of GOEX. Now, that might be just a coincidence with my eye sight as well.
The rifle shoots fine with that charge and I notice no more fouling than the very much smaller 85gr. GOEX load. That rifle doesn't foul, anyway. I use a 10 ounce denim patch
I measure at .021" or I use the 14 ounce denim I measure at .034". That one is tighter going in, but the same going down.
I found in chronographing my .69 just a few years back, all the way up to 165gr. of 3F GOEX or 165gr. 2F GOEX, the 2F gave a slightly higher velocity. When doing that test, I
was using either 12 ounce or 14 ounce denim. I think it was the 14ounce. I've lost that data, so I guess I'll have to redo it? Anyone want to help by doing the shooting? I'll run
the chronograph.