AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: 45-110 on September 05, 2024, 12:57:43 AM
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I have been trying to develop a reasonable 200 yd. load in my .54 cal. Dimick plains rifle with a 1-60" twist. A 24" group is where I am currently at. Even though for the last 2 yrs I have won our gong match, its nothing to brag about. Shooting 90 gr. OE 1 1/2 powder, have tried .530, .535 balls and various duck patching. Fired patches look good. So I am wiling to try a felt wad under ball next. If you have had some success with this combo, what thickness of felt, and is it lubed? Sure would like to get at least a 12" group. I have a globe front and adjustable plains style rear sight and have no problem seeing the target while on the bench.
thanks
KW
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Have you tried more powder, like 100 gr?
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I use 110 gr. Goex 2F at 200 yards a proven load from the bench. My barrel 1 in 70 twist with a 60 twist it will probably be too much thinking that 100gr. sounds good. You might find a patch problem with the heaver load. If so try army duct canvas. It may require a smaller ball. With one or two rifles I have had good luck with a lubed felt wad.
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use cornmeal over the powder and for 200 yards, I would increase the load.
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Shoot her in the mile Kenny!
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I'm with Smylee Grouch: increase your powder charge. I've done a fair amount of round ball shooting at 200 yards, mostly with rifles in the .48-.54 caliber range. I tend to get best results when the load gives a muzzle velocity of 1,800-1,900 fps, no matter if the twist is 1:44 or 1:70, or anything in between.
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A fellow shooter and I have toyed with 200 yards. He shoots a 54 and I shoot a 50. I think we were both using 80 gr of 3f and probably .018 patch. My conclusion is that there are so many factors going into that exercise it was almost impossible to get a good group given the effort we were putting into it....which was "not much". My first conclusion is getting a handle on the drop regardless of the charge and what was the point of aim. We positioned a marker over the target and my best shots happened when I was actually not able to see the target but rather with a point of aim about 18 inches OVER the center of the target. BTW, there were no adjustments to the sights.
So, I'm still a bad shot even at 50 yards!
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Ok, on my next range session I will try 110 gr. 1 1/2f and see what happens. Will also try that with 2f.
thanks
kw......Daniel not "Kenny"!
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not 54 but 50 might help
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSrUgvUpGeI
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Several years ago when I could see out of both eyes I shot light bench and unlimited bench with a light bench gun. 52 cal shooting a 530 ball with 20\1000 Teflon patch. 95 gr of 1&1\2 swiss. I could keep all shots in the black at 50 all day. At 100 I could keep them in the scoring rings . when shooting at 200 I had to go up to 150 or more grains if I wanted to compete with " the big boys " .
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Strikes me the focus should be on what type sights one is using. An adjustable rear sight can prove accurate at just about any charge/patch combo. But I'm still a bad shoot.
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A good adjustable sight will bring a group to a desired point but I'm thinking a good group is the first objective then we move the sights. ;)
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A good adjustable sight will bring a group to a desired point but I'm thinking a good group is the first objective then we move the sights. ;)
Yessir the group first then fiddle with the sights, at least I have a 5 step elevator on the rear.
My group is centered, but is a 24 inch shotgun pattern
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IMHO, you need a tighter combination and more powder.
I would suggest something between 100gr. and 130gr. will answer for you.
If it was my rifle I'd be trying between 110 and 120gr.
2F. If using Swiss powder, then somewhere between 105 and 115gr.
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I tested 115 gr of 1 1/2 and 2f today in this .54, no improvement in group size. I found some blown duck patches. So next session I will try a lubed felt wads under the patch. Thickest felt I have to cut is 3/16".
kw
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Blown patches means either getting cut at the muzzle and blowing with heavier (higher pressure loads) or patch too thin for that pressure.
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I tested 115 gr of 1 1/2 and 2f today in this .54, no improvement in group size. I found some blown duck patches. So next session I will try a lubed felt wads under the patch. Thickest felt I have to cut is 3/16".
kw
Use cornmeal.
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I tested 115 gr of 1 1/2 and 2f today in this .54, no improvement in group size. I found some blown duck patches. So next session I will try a lubed felt wads under the patch. Thickest felt I have to cut is 3/16".
kw
Use cornmeal.
Yes corn meal is next after the felt trial, but that is a royal pain. My .535 ball and .020" duck if a tough load. I pulled a practice dry ball to check muzzle cuts on patch, there where none.
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Round bottom rifling?
If so, needs heavier patch.
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Round bottom rifling?
If so, needs heavier patch.
No it is flat/square groove rifling. Made up some mink oil lubed felt wads for next test.
kw
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Over powder cards for a 28 gauge would probably help a lot between the powder and patch.
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this is how he keeps from blowing patches
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KGu2hY8u3E
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F it, I give up trying to help those struggling. Obviously loose combination proponents have a better solution.
Might be the beer speaking out of frustration. #@!! $#@*.
#$!?
Daryl if this is directed at me the OP, let it be known the .535 ball and .020 cotton duck is just short of needing a mallet to start the ball. This Barrel has a .538 bore. so the combo is not a loose one.
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After reading Daryl's last post and your response, maybe that a 24-inch group at 200 yards is the best that you are going to get with that rifle.
Even though you can see the target, open iron sights are prone to give you sighting errors.
I am with Daryl on using more powder.
But I would start by first finding a load in the 120 to 135 grain range of 2f that groups well at 50 yards and 100 yards, before I would waste powder, lead and time at 200 yards.
If you can't find a high velocity load that gives you tight groups at 100 yards, you definitely won't find it at 200.
No beer influence in this post.
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Well said. ;) Most good shooting at 200 is done with good groups shot with good sights and consistent shooting techniques.
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Sorry for the outburst. I deleted that last post.
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There does seem to be a trend to view low post counts as a neophyte shooter. In my case its 55yrs of dedicated pursuit, so I don't qualify. I inquired about a felt wad and if anyone had success using that combo, instead got info that was generally true but not relevant to the particular query.
kw
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Some people have noted improved accuracy when using a barrier between the pached ball and powder.
Sam Fadala noted this when he insisted on using weak, non-sealing ball and patch combinations.
This, the use of some sort of barrier will likely help but adds another step and added material in loading.
Its time to test it in your rifle. Not all rifles react the same to added materials. A proper test needs to be done whenever changing and component.
Your rifle will tell you if it works in your gun or not.
Years ago I tested barriers of different materials from cards then and patch poked down, to a felt wad.
My .69 didn't care.
The .40 and .45 both lost accuracy.
Your .60 may or may not shoot better.
My .40 and. 45 both did better with a lot of lead and patch compression in the bottom of the grooves, ie: snug loads.
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Thanks Daryl, another range session coming up. I have the tight load, and don't mind hard starting as it is not for hunting. 2 more trial runs, the lube felt wad and maybe 125 gr. of 1 1/2F. I have noticed very increased hard fouling when getting down to the ball seat with these increased loads. May shoot 2 and swab, and continue 2 more etc. Been 90f here and no humidity, using soaking wet patches now with a wipe of mink oil on back side. There really is no reason to pursue this other than a personal achievement of a respectable "group"
I routinely shoot 800- 1200yd in bpcr competition and fair quite well with iron sights on distance gongs. So a 200yd shot seems like point blank.
kw
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I have been trying to develop a reasonable 200 yd. load in my .54 cal. Dimick plains rifle with a 1-60" twist. A 24" group is where I am currently at. Even though for the last 2 yrs I have won our gong match, its nothing to brag about. Shooting 90 gr. OE 1 1/2 powder, have tried .530, .535 balls and various duck patching. Fired patches look good. So I am wiling to try a felt wad under ball next. If you have had some success with this combo, what thickness of felt, and is it lubed? Sure would like to get at least a 12" group. I have a globe front and adjustable plains style rear sight and have no problem seeing the target while on the bench.
thanks
KW
For that distance. FFF. 90-100. 535 with a ticking patch. My 1970s Doulas barreled Flint Hawken would do 6” or less for 5 shots. I would use Swiss for this if the stuff you are using continues to fail. This about 15 years ago shot at dawn before the breeze came up. If I could feel it the ball would go out downwind.
I had made a tang sight for the rear tang screw silver blade front. HOWEVER. With the RB any breeze would blow the group out downwind. This off my pickup tailgate sitting on a lawn chair.
Most rifles don’t like wimpy loads much.
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45-110, the trouble with wiping now and then, is the changing barrel condition which will screw up groups.
If a load combo is used that does not change but maintains the se bore condition, accuracy will be consistent. If there is fouling building then the load is not tight enough.
In that case your accuracy will be better if you wipe between shots - or use some sort of barrier between powder and payched ball.
A .60 will easily shoot paper ctgs. due to the wadded up paper between the ball and powder. For this to happen(accurate shooting with ctg) the paper needs to be somewhat engraved upon searing the ball into the bore. With this method I and others here have achieved identical accuracy using paper ctgs. Thus the barrier "system" is proven to work.
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If patches are blowing you need more powder or better patch material. A lot of the cotton you might buy today simply is too weak and will fail. I bought some denim I was sure was good bought 2 yards. But it threw shots all over the place with two different rifles. Dunno why. I shoot mostly linen now. More powder acts as a wad during initial acceleration. Finer powder, while faster, can slow initial flame propagation. Caps. The hotter caps have caused problems with some shooters. These came along to better light off the higher ignition temp fake powders.
Just more thinking.
BTW and you likely know this, 1 1/2 is really cartridge powder as is the OE. My 45-2.6 loves the 1 1/2 swiss with 500-540 pp. But would not occur tome to put in a ml.
Wiping. Damp patch both sides, dry patch both sides. Wet patches will put too much water in the breech.
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As noted in another reply, you might want to give Swiss a try OR some different patch lube. Food for thought.
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Ok Dan 3f will be in the test, I by passed it for use with the initial heavy load trials. Good Irish linen was my go to patch mat'l, but now nearly out of it and not something to be found In Powell WY. The current .020" cotton duck I have is some stout stuff, last patches looked good. Yes I don't even bother trying for groups if the Wy. "breeze" is up......just like in Livingston!
Kim
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Lewis made some great vids. He really thought things through for long distance. Great guy.
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50-110, are you using Duck canvas, 10oz? If so, I have found hot and dry conditions it blows apart if not real wet. When temp is below 75 degrees or below it shoots great, any hotter either can’t find the patches or they are badly torn.
I have done some 200 yard shooting, even won a couple of medals at the NMLRA Western Nationals some lessons I learned. 140 grains of Goex 2F, shoot as early as possible less wind and clean between shots.
BTW, the gun weighs 35 lbs and has Redfield Olympic sights, 530 ball and Teflon .015 and it is a 53 cal.
The difference between 100 and 200 yard sight settings is 62 clicks up. Then fine tune.
Michael
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We positioned a marker over the target and my best shots happened when I was actually not able to see the target but rather with a point of aim about 18 inches OVER the center of the target. BTW, there were no adjustments to the sights.
A trick I learned when long range revolver shooting was to use the barrel itself as part of the front sight. That way you never lose sight of the front sight and it's always on target.
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We positioned a marker over the target and my best shots happened when I was actually not able to see the target but rather with a point of aim about 18 inches OVER the center of the target. BTW, there were no adjustments to the sights.
A trick I learned when long range revolver shooting was to use the barrel itself as part of the front sight. That way you never lose sight of the front sight and it's always on target.
That sighting system is normal for modern handguns shot at long range. We also use it for long range rifle shooting with fixed sights on our muzzleloaders.
At the Squamish range we shot at a quartz rock about 16" in diameter. It was positioned up on the rock face of the Big Chief mountain, 300yards from the firing line.(mid 1970's)
My 2-lens range finder of the day made the rock out at 325yards.
Taylor's .62 Hawken had a bright line on the browning of the barrel 1/2 way to the muzzle, caused by the loading bench edge. That line was the perfect elevation, held at the top of the rear sight
and placing the blade under the rock. More, many more hits on that rock, then misses. I made a similar mark on my .45 Bauska barrel. I even hit the darn thing with my wife's .36 Seneca shooting 128gr. Maxiballs with 60gr. 3F GO powder.
Man, that was a long time ago, when we could see.
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When I get into a fabric store for patch material, I always look to see it is 100% cotton or linen. I never pay attention to the "ounce" designation, the fabric is most foreign made and I don't trust that or the sales person. I bring my micrometer and go to work measuring the different choices.
kw
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45 – 110 this patching has always work when nothing else does. Army Duct Canvas, I picked it up here some time ago. Previous to using it I was using .020 Teflon the only thing that held up to my heavy loads with accuracy it held a slight edge. After seeing a post here I decided to give it a try, with my previous load 110 gr. 2F Goex .020 Teflon. .535 ball 20/80 Balistol/water. With switching to the Army Duct Canvas also .020 it has such a tight weave I had to drop down to .530 ball size. I couldn’t begin to get that .535 ball started. Note here I can shoot all day without cleaning with Teflon or Army Duct Canvas. Sorry to say I see it is presently out of stock but appears only a temporary thing.
https://www.bigduckcanvas.com/army-duck/10-10-oz-60-inches-wide/
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Well todays test was only slightly better using 3f and .020 duck. Anything over 100 gr 3f is blowing the patches. Tried a few felt wads under ball and it did show some group size improvement but could no locate the patches at range. Ran bore camera down for a look after cleaning, its not the smoothest rifling job I have seen and it did get a lapping a couple yrs ago. Linen will be the next try.
kw
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A rough bore ("not the smoothest rifling job") will always be hard on patches. But again, if they are blowing ie: cannot be found, they lack the thickness and/or strength to be trusted.
If it was lapped a couple years ago, why isn't it smooth now? Not adding up, it seems. Just trying to help.
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Daryl I am very picky about barrels I buy. What always looks good to the eye by looking down the bore can be a shock by having a look with a bore camera. Most builders do not have one. Some covid Grn. Mtn. barrels where a joke for roughness. I have lapped several brands over the years before I even bothered to shoot them. Lapping can provide a bit of bore taper when done properly from the breech. This barrels current bore condition is burr free and shows light tooling marks in the grooves, the lands are smooth. Maybe this winter I will give it another lead lap. Muzzle is coned, radiused and polished. A tight weave linen might get me there yet. Or just park it and return to my .58 Hawken or Creamer rifle.
Had no patch issues in the 80 gr range, but again it was a 200 yd failure even though I have won 2 matches with it.
kw
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Interesting. Tool marks in the grooves, ie: longitudinal marks running up the grooves mean nothing imho.
My .69 had a lot of reamer marks on the tops of the lands. Even after over 5,000 shots, they (memories) are still visible,
yet I had zero patch problems at the start as i found a normal .021" patch would not "take" over a 90gr. 2F charge. I simply
used a 12 ounce denim patch I was measuring at .030" with compressed calipers and .025" on my mic. These with .682" ball.
.012" deep rifling., GRRW barrel.
I even used the same patch in 1986 or 87 for each shot in a 5-shot group at 50 yards, that ran just under 2" offhand. About as
good as I could do back then.
Here's the barrel today. You can still see the cross reamer marks, yet it will take even 165gr. 2F with the current .021" denim 10 ounce patches.
No cone, just a smoothly radiused crown. I can easily load a 10 ounce denim patch with a .690" ball of pure lead - but - you have to want to put it in.
It takes a good smack with the palm.
After into the bore and down 6" with the starter, it goes down easily with the rifle's rod.
At 11 o'clock, I see some rod wear in one groove.
(https://i.ibb.co/4W42QDR/Muzzle-Crown-14-bore-closeup.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jnrqhbj)
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I’ve seen a lot of shooters, and hunters, try to get their muzzleloading rifle the shoot a tight yard maxi group at two hundred yards, and nobodies has consistently done that at our range since I started shooting black powder in the early ‘70’s. Oh, I’ve seen some tight groups over the years, on a given day, but nobody has been able to make it happen all the time.
My standard line for new shooter, or hunter, that wants consistent tight groups, and killing velocity at two hundred yards is to tell him, or her, to go out and get a target that if it is hit at all, it would be a hit in the vitals. Then back it up with something to demonstrate penetration, and then come back and tell me what you think the possibilities are of making a clean kill. They all came back with a 125 maximum, or less. Now I know long shots can be made with the right gun, sights, load, and shooter, its just that magical combination only happens once in a blue moon.
Hungry Horse
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Hungry Horse
As I indicated earlier, my quest for the 200 yd improved group is for one of our local matches not hunting. I had some better success today with a different duck and ball size, and dropped the charge back to 90gr. But its a load better suited for bench work not from the bag as its hard to load. Ran to town later and found some .022 denim. So when the wind complies I will give that a go.
kw
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A lot of good suggestions already. Since the .535 ball you’re using is only .003 smaller than the .538 bore, have you considered going to a smaller ball such as a .530 which would allow the use of a thicker patch. That thicker patch should hold up better to the higher velocity charges. Just a thought.
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If you want to load a tighter patch try using a loading block and a ball starter for a 50 or 45 caliber. I beat my hand up trying to load a tighter patch in my 40 caliber and thought of this. Using a starter for a 32 caliber worked for me.
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Kurt makes a good point. If the short starter shaft is close to bore size it will wedge the patch between bore and shaft and sometimes damage the patch as you load the gun.
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My .40 through .58 starters are 3/8" in diameter.
I use 1/2" for .62 through .69.
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I am not much of a fan of lubed felt wads for anything but revolver use.
In my big bore shooting days, I found that lubed cushion wads from Ox Yoke worked great for me with what most people think are ridiculous loads, 200 grains up to 400 gains. And the patches never burned out, either.
Not sure if the new Ox Yoke is still putting them out or not.
The Gun Works does offer Circle Fly cushion wad in 28 ga.
https://thegunworks.com/shop/shotgun-accessories/shotgun-wads/circle-fly-wads/shotgun-wad-28-ga-cushion/
They do not appear to be lubed, but that is easily done yourself.
Just a thought, but the previous post about load development for 50 and 100 yards is absolutely right on. Until those are zeroed in, the rest is just fun and making smoke, and maybe even frustration.
John (Bigsmoke)
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In the early 1960's I built a 58 caliber rifle based on a gun in our museum here.It was made by someone with the last name of Henry and used a drum and nipple ignition.I got a 1 and 1/8x34 barrel from Bill Large and made a fairly good copy half stock in walnut with silver butt plate and trigger guard and single set trigger.I mounted a Malcolm telescope sight that was nearly full length and shot it at Bill Larges range from a rest at 399 MEASURED yards.The was a big tree at that end and I guessed 400 yards and careful measuring said 399. I used a 575 ball and 120 grains of Curtis&Harvey 3fg and it would stay on a NMLRA 100 yard target.I think the rifling was 1 turn in 57" with 8 grooves and concaved lands.Bill was as surprised as I was at the distance and accuracy.Looking back I think this was in 1960 because I went to Dodge City Kansas to a gun show with Forest Burdette,a local antique dealer and Colt SA collector and bought the scope for $25 and the gun was finished before that,maybe in late 1959.I think I still have part of that can of C&H powder.
Bob Roller
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That's pretty wild, Bob. I wonder how much the ball drops over that distance. 50-75 feet?
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Interesting thought, Justin, but if the gun is sighted for that range, there is no drop below the line of sight, other than those balls striking low, in the group.
Perhaps a better question, "what would the midrange trajectory be, above the line of sight".
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According to the ballistic calculator I play with from time to time, assuming a 293 grain ball and a muzzle velocity of 1700 on a standard day it is roughly 415 inches, or about 34 and a half feet below line of sight with a 100 yard zero distance. 440 inches or 36.7 feet with a 50 yard zero. Line of sight in both instances is sighted to the zero distance. Max ordinate is not available on this calculator, but it is safe to assume it's pretty similar to the drop numbers.
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Just back from another range session today. Had a big jump in success after finding blown patches again. So I started swabbing between every shot and all recovered patches are perfect. Blustery Wyoming tail wind here today so only shot at 120 yds. but got 2 nice 5" groups using OE 2f. Have noted a heavy crust ring ahead of the patent breech using 90 gr. OE which I now assume is tearing the patch on firmly the ball, since it sure feels that way. Hence the PIA swabbing. Next try will be Swiss and see how much crust builds up. Been using Napa oil and water, could try Ballistol also next. My patches are soaking wet so its load and shoot. Also I did solder a small aperture disc on the buck horn sight and that was a plus.
The 2 patch method or a lubed felt, helped but not a much as swabbing.
kw
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5 inch group at 200 yard with open sights is outstanding. I can after each and every shot. Found the bore that is the same every time is more consistent.
Michael
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That's pretty wild, Bob. I wonder how much the ball drops over that distance. 50-75 feet?
Wild or not that was the range and 399 yards is not that far.That old Malcolm scope had good lenses and I had and still do have the prewar binoculars that were made in Japan and that black circle was not hard to see and it was on a 4'x6'piece of clean card board.I think the slow twist and a good load of high quality powder worked well in that test.The 75 foot drop was impossible and the travel time of that ball was short. This was done over 60 years ago and none of the witness's are now alive. lot of people have no idea about shooting at longer than normal distances with unlikely guns.Two old friends,Forest Mitchell and Bernard Enix using 44 caliber revolvers could make anyone look for cover if they shot at them from 300 yards and Mitchell said there were 300 yard turkey shoots in Kentucky and he won it more than once.
With my 44 I guarantee nobody wants to get within 300 yards of me and it isn't a modern gun either.
Bob Roller
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A round ball program I found has the following results for a 58 cal ball with a muzzle velocity of 1700 fps with a 10 mph wind from 90 degree's. The zero is 200 yards. The numbers are pretty amazing.
Yards..Vel....Energy...Drop...Drift....TOF(sec)
0 1700 1878 -0.5 0.0 0.000
2 1685 1844 0.1 0.0 0.003
4 1665 1801 0.7 0.0 0.007
6 1650 1769 1.2 0.0 0.010
8 1631 1728 1.8 0.1 0.014
10 1612 1688 2.3 0.1 0.018
15 1571 1603 3.7 0.2 0.027
20 1527 1516 5.0 0.4 0.037
25 1486 1435 6.3 0.6 0.047
30 1446 1360 7.6 0.8 0.057
35 1410 1292 8.8 1.1 0.067
40 1373 1224 9.9 1.4 0.078
45 1338 1164 11.0 1.8 0.089
50 1303 1104 12.0 2.3 0.101
75 1162 877 16.2 5.3 0.162
100 1069 743 18.4 9.4 0.229
125 1004 655 18.2 14.5 0.302
150 948 585 15.5 20.2 0.378
175 898 524 9.4 26.9 0.460
200 852 472 0.0 34.3 0.546
225 811 427 -13.3 42.4 0.636
250 771 386 -31.1 51.4 0.731
275 732 348 -53.7 61.2 0.830
300 694 313 -82.6 72.1 0.936
325 657 281 -117.8 84.0 1.047
350 622 251 -160.5 96.9 1.164
375 588 225 -211.9 111.0 1.288
400 555 200 -273.1 126.4 1.419
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Ok Dan 3f will be in the test, I by passed it for use with the initial heavy load trials. Good Irish linen was my go to patch mat'l, but now nearly out of it and not something to be found In Powell WY. The current .020" cotton duck I have is some stout stuff, last patches looked good. Yes I don't even bother trying for groups if the Wy. "breeze" is up......just like in Livingston!
Kim
OK try fabric-store <dot>com for linen, has to be 8oz or better. Their linen “canvas” is pretty good (but its not there now). But wash and tumble dry to shrink and tighten it up then iron flat.
If you search for IL090 you should find the 8 oz. They had some heavier stuff that was IL091 but is does not come up now. But I bought enough to run for a time. It shoots good even with .526s out of my Kibler 54s.
They will sell small swatches so you can look before buying.
Dan
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I've sent a fair amount of this downrange over the years: https://www.dickblick.com/products/blick-unprimed-belgian-linen-canvas/?srsltid=AfmBOooXSIAYzn7rHK2OtTNlEUO9dJCTXzg1i7mSGZmFiM9uvPLtS-jn
If you try other art supply stores, you'll want to search for UNPRIMED linen canvas.
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If I read their pricing correctly its painfully expensive!
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Hello Kenny,
Im late to the dance here but I have had good luck with heavy tent canvas .025” and heavy charges of black with a PRB. Ive got a couple guns that are real patch eaters and this combo fixed that. Ive never been able to get ticking or linen to work well for me with heavy charges. I also shoot a number of original guns with iffy bores and a smaller ball with a heavy patch and lots of a courser grade of black is usually the ticket. That said I cant beat 5” at 200 for sure but pretty consistently can shoot around 8”. Hope you are doing well. Best,
Zack T
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Got out early this morning before the wind came up to re verify yesterdays succes, the problem with that is the range faces east and sun glare is bad. Thinking the last 2 trips have proved out the .023 denim and the .526 ball over 90 gr. of 2f at 120 yds. Now its back too the 200yd trials. Funny all the tight loads with the .530 and .535 ball are less accurate and seem to foul worse. Maybe the overly tight ball/patch squeezes out all the lube (moose milk) by the time it gets seated all the way down to the crust ring and hence the needed swabbing.
kw
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Got out early this morning before the wind came up to re verify yesterdays succes, the problem with that is the range faces east and sun glare is bad. Thinking the last 2 trips have proved out the .023 denim and the .526 ball over 90 gr. of 2f at 120 yds. Now its back too the 200yd trials. Funny all the tight loads with the .530 and .535 ball are less accurate and seem to foul worse. Maybe the overly tight ball/patch squeezes out all the lube (moose milk) by the time it gets seated all the way down to the crust ring and hence the needed swabbing.
kw
. Have you tried a grease type lube? Thinking out loud that it might leave more lube in the weave! :-\
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I had my fill of super tight patch/ball combos and trying to load in a hurry when hunting. I use a .526 ball and .025 patch in my primary .54 and a .562 ball with .025 patch in my primary .58. That combo is easy enough to load with a simple rod and the accuracy for me was better than the bigger ball and tighter/thinner patch combos. It does go against the dogma I guess but works consistently for me. I have a thing for rusty old antique Lemans. They tend to have very narrow/deep lands and the only combo I can get to work in those guns is a super heavy patch, skinny ball and big loads of black.
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Yes one of the previous sessions I used Mink oil/grease soaked patches, that test was with the tight combination and still had the fouled crust ring.
Got out early this morning before the wind came up to re verify yesterdays succes, the problem with that is the range faces east and sun glare is bad. Thinking the last 2 trips have proved out the .023 denim and the .526 ball over 90 gr. of 2f at 120 yds. Now its back too the 200yd trials. Funny all the tight loads with the .530 and .535 ball are less accurate and seem to foul worse. Maybe the overly tight ball/patch squeezes out all the lube (moose milk) by the time it gets seated all the way down to the crust ring and hence the needed swabbing.
kw
. Have you tried a grease type lube? Thinking out loud that it might leave more lube in the weave! :-\
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I had blown patches when my patch material was too old and had deteriorated . just curious also if using a hard card wad over powder would help.
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Try 50 grains of cornmeal over the powder. It seals the gases better, protects the patch, improves accuracy. It works much better than a wad.
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this is how he keeps from blowing patches
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KGu2hY8u3E
I have not had a "blown" patch since about 1973 or 1974 at the latest.
I do not use anything but one patch, the one that goes around the ball. I use no other wads, either.
If you want to, go for it if it helps.
I've not seen anyone who uses such "assisted" loadings in the winners circles at rendezvous I've been to..
Everyone we shoot with use loads and we do including
our wives. THESE people are the competition we must beat, not those who use weird additions to their loads.
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Not only.must your ball and patch combo "make it" with a squib close range target load but if interested in longer range shooting, it must hold up with the even heavier charges needed for shooting long range.
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Even good groups at 50 yards is required before going to 100. Then jumping to 200 is do-able, but it must shoot well at closer ranges first - without burning or tearing.patches in any way.
A good patch, should be reusable, without.loss of accuracy for at least 2 if not 5 shots, especially in larger calibers. This is because of the much lower breech and muzzle pressures generated in large bore rifles.
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Daryl is correct!