AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: recurve on December 16, 2024, 08:12:50 PM
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As all things near finished kit rifles are a double edge sword,
while they increase our shooter numbers do they harm the pro/hobby builders/suppliers who build the old way>>>-->from gathered parts & stocks?
while it's nice to put together a rifle from a 80% finished kit, does help or harm anything?
the reason I ask fallows:
I was talking to a longtime owner of a famous muzzleloader shop, who said the guys willing to build from plank or parts are vanishing, fewer every year.
Are we losing the builders of custom rifles pro or hobby enthusiasts or is this just a part of game a new way forward?
I did notice that trying to gather parts for my latest build there seemed to be fewer suppliers, harder to find good parts (other than at the gun builders fairs)
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Oh boy. Gonna get hot in here! :o :o :o
JMHO but we're losing scratch builders to (1) age and (2) lack of interest amongst younger people. Kits have been around forever. I don't think better kits have anything to do with it. In fact, I think super-high-quality kits like what Jim is putting out now are actually a plus in terms of getting new people hooked with the bug, because older "kits" were typically a bigger PITA than just going at it from scratch. No offense to Jim but if you enjoy the work involved in building a rifle either from a kit or from scratch, you can only build so much of the same thing before you get bored and want to stretch out a bit, at which point you start eyeballing blanks....
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From my perspective, until a quality kit is offered in each school the guys that fall off into the rabbit hole and really get into it are going to have to build from a plank or buy from someone that builds from a plank. I don't know how many are falling off into the rabbit hole but I suspect that number is probably fairly stable, over the years I have known quite a few likeminded people that don't do things a little bit. For me, I wanted to extend my hunting season so I bought a muzzleloader, a factory built flintlock. I shot it a little, hunted with it, and was 110% hooked. I have built one from a "kit" I bought from the P company, never again, I have also collected a half a dozen planks, locks, barrels etc to build what I want the way I want it. I went to work for a startup company almost a year ago so time to start builds has been super hard to come by but I have plans to get started very soon.
I also see the Kibler kits in particular as a gateway drug, they offer I think 4 different kits and some options in each one. If a guy is able to get the kit, put it together and come up with a pretty decent to excellent product he will be far more likely to buy a plank and a barrel than a guy that has never done it and his odds of success with a Kibler kit is astronomically higher than with some of the other "kits" that are offered. That is my opinion anyway.
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I was talking to my buddy Ian Pratt a while ago. He teaches quite a number of classes and makes a point of asking students how they got into this stuff and how they ended up taking classes. Ian said that probably 90% of students (if I recall correctly) mentioned that they have started with our kits. Basically, most of those who enter this traditional black powder world end up coming through us initially.
This certainly makes us feel good.
Jim
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In general, there have always been a small percentage of builders who want to be artisans. Who want to study original guns and design a build, and source and make parts, invest time and money and thinking into a “blank” build. There were probably more in the early days because pre carved stocks were limited. But there’s a whole world of folks who built Track kits, Pecatonica kits, Golden Age kits (remember them?), Sharon kits, Cherry Corners kits, Green River Rifle Works kits, Dunlap kits, Chambers kits, ……. even Traditions kits that are seldom shown here because folks here might find them uninteresting.
There’s been a switch by many who would be doing other kits, to the “assemble in 6 hours” kits as they are a great value, historically accurate, and fine functioning guns. And the vast majority of serious hobby shooters I know, who do woods walks around here, wouldn’t know what the basis of a fine build from a blank was. Wouldn’t know an Oerter from a Dickert from a Schroyer from a Beck from a Peter Berry or a Bonewitz. Nor would they care. 75% of club shooters I know don’t own have a personal library on original guns. And that’s fine - but I need to remember we are a very small group of craftsmen.
I want a “fowler.” I want a “Hawken.” I want a “colonial rifle.” That’s as deep as it gets for most. And far more are in the “I’d like to have a flintlock” category.
I don’t think the availability of high quality, easy to assemble kits has nearly as much impact as the lack of interest in diving deep.
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You can buy a high quality Kibler Woodsrunner for $860 plus a high quality lock that needs zero tuning for $315. So, total investment is $1,175 plus shipping and tax.
You can buy a Traditions flintlock rifle for under $600. It's not a reproduction of a historic rifle. It has a lock, barrel, trigger all put together on whatever type of stock it is. It sure works for hunting.....but comparison to the Kibler....."pretty" is a word not associated with Traditions.
The old gun builders are fading. The cost of some of those builders run $1,700 and up. I've seen some at over $3-K.
I think it's tough for a scratch builder to compete with a Kibler kit. And I don't think it's a bad thing to own a quality Kibler rifle for the $1,200 price range (and up if you want) that an end buyer\user can complete without a lot of specialized knowledge.
If that drives the competition builder out of the market, then that's what a free market does. I see nothing wrong with that.
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At 76 I don't have the stamina to build all my customers rifles from planks anymore. Most of my maple planks that I have left are 2-7/8" thick and average 22"wide and 5-1/2 feet long. This adds up to a LOT or weight to get up on the bandsaw to cut out the profile. Then there is the work involved getting it to the point of doing the final shaping. What use to take me a week now takes me more than double that. There are some customers that are willing to wait for a full-on custom rifle, but they are getting few and far in-between. Factor in the cost of parts and labor and the price of a custom build is pretty steep compared to a plug and play Kimber kit.
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I think it is likely a wash. It likely gets people hooked on flintlocks at a much higher rate than someone's first flintlock being a Traditions, or maybe a kit that requires much more previous skill which could potentially turn the new builder off of building from scratch. But, some people just don't have as much time or space to build one from scratch so they opt for a kit.
It seems to me that high quality kits can serve as a gateway to scratch building.
I'm 38 with 3 children, one of which is 3 years old, I have far too many hobbies, and my favorites involve a high level of physical activity. Even though I was able to work my way through scratch building a flintlock, I likely won't do one again until my toddler is a little older or I get older and can't sustain the same physical activity I enjoy. The next one may be a kit.
But I'll absolutely be building them regularly after my little girl is out of the house.
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I think Eric hit the nail on the head......look at pictures posted on this site of all the shows back there in the east....almost every one in any picture is a "cotton top". We are all three days older than dirt (except for a very few like Jim K and Eric). Nobody is going to build from kits or planks if the whole interest in these weapons dies out. If Jim's kits bring in a new generation of interested people, young or old, there will be a resurgence of interest in building from scratch as well. However, there will also, I believe, be a demand for higher quality parts than those available in the past. I think if someone comes into the muzzle loading world via one of Jim's kits and then wants to build from scratch later on, they will probably not be happy with a lot of the older castings, barrels, locks, etc., that were no where near the quality of the currently available parts.
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I have now gone to both extremes. I love to do a Kibler kit. It is satisfying, quick, and the end result is better than I can do from scratch.
ON the other hand, I scratch build. Not for a result but, to have something on the bench to work on when the mood strikes. I try to make as much of it as possible in order to not rely on others. Sometimes I make something that can not be done any other way. For instance, I am contemplating doing another Armstrong with all the trimmings.
The in between, parts sets with cast parts and poorly pantographed wood, are in my rear view mirror. They are too frustrating and the end result is a rifle that is of compromised quality. I see no point is fighting them and not having a top quality rifle to show for it.
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I see the high grade kits as a blessing. The down side is "you get what you get" and "you get what you can find". Left handers get a lot fewer choices. The very tall, very short and those with interests outside of the styles and types offered are just out of luck. Want a choice of Length of pull, drop at toe and heel, cast off or drop at comb that fits you? Tough!
But demand is needed to get younger men to try to learn the art. I started when I was 12. I am now pushing 70. I have made a LOT more rifles from blanks then from semi-inlet stocks. But today you can own a very good rifle or smoothbore made to corrects shapes, and make it yourself which are far better than most kits available in the 60s and 70s. And as demand outstrips supply, I am sure young men will start to appear in the craft.
My #1 concern is loosing parts makers. It seems to me in the coming days the new men are going to have to learn a lot more foundry work as well as wood work.
I am working myself towards retirement. I have been as far behind as 8 years in the past and about 6 years ago I stopped taking on any new orders. When I get caught up I will still build, but I will not allow a 'back log" any deeper then 2 guns. I am too old to accept the responsibility of deep bag-logs.
It's a bit sad and also a bit amusing that I have had the same conversation now with about 10 men asking me to take an order. The overview of all of them goes something like this:
Man asking; I am now retired and I worked X number of years and now I have time and a pension so now I feel I can order one of your guns.
Me; How long have you wanted one?
Man Asking; "Oh 25 years or so" (or 30 or in one case 36)
Me; You waited 25 years to ask"?
Man asking ; Yeah I had to wait until I was retired".
Me: In the 25 -XX years you waited, I got 25-XX years older, and now I am retiring too.
Man asking: Oh no.,..... you can't do that. I have waited XXX long!
Me; Yes I can. And I am.
This is not to say I would not ever make a rifle for men like that, but if I can I will and if I can't or if the timing is bad, or if I want to go hunting or kayaking or simply if I don't feel like it, I won't.
Is that bad? Does that make me hard hearted? Or does it seem unfair that those retiring seem to begrudge me the same right? Both? Neither?
All said, I encourage young men to learn. I have taught a few of them. I made them for 56 years. I still like making them, but I am not going to obligate myself to make them anymore.
So I tell them to try a kit gun.
But I will be 71 before I am 100% caught up and 71 is old enough to stop owing people guns.
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Ian Pratt told me that he got worn out by the pressure of a backlog. So, now he keeps a list of customers. Then when he finishes a rifle(at his own working pace), he calls down the list. You have to take what he builds or he goes to the next name. He told me that keeps the pressure off and no backlog to worry about.
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I would say to those who are on the fence about taking the plunge and building a gun …… do it. I became friends with a guy in college who was a muzzleloader and had built his rifle. I was already a shooter and this looked like fun, and I thought if he can do it, so can I. I got the basic stuff and went to it…..in my dorm room.
It was a good break from studying and I just did the prep work in the dorm. Took it home when it started to look like something. Made friends with a couple of locals at home who shot Muzzleloaders, and were starting a club. ( Fort Tassinong Muzzleloaders).Been 50 years or so now. Building rifles is a great hobby……I would recommend it. It will build skills, enlarge your tool collection, enlarge your circle of friends ( your wife will find them to be a very interesting,if somewhat eccentric , bunch, but preferable to the ones hanging out in the local saloon) and deplete your wallet temporarily at times. I have lost count of how many rifles I’ve built since that first one in 1972, but they’ve all been worth it. Go for it. I will add that I think a kit gun is a good place to start….especially if you do not have a shop or many tools. You’ll get experience, and more important, pride in doing it.
I have a standing offer to any one who’s interested in building…..you can come over and use my shop. My tools, and my expertise ( such as it is) to build a rifle. No one has taken me up on it yet….offer still stands. I’m in NW Indiana)
( moderators….if post too long notify me please)
Mikeyfirelock
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My last two rifles were were a very simple 58 caliber full stock and the other was a 451 long range rifle but I use a stalking rifle stock semi finished.I did make a number of locks but most went out of the country.I am glad to see these high quality kits and the locks have been upgraded a lot.Gun making was never my strong interest and MAYBE I have made 12 total and one pistol.All but the last 2 were made from a plank,usually walnut.One was a fancy half stock using walnut that supposedly came from Russia bought from a man who restocked military bolt action rifles.It had silver butt plate and trigger guard and a checkered grip,bar in wood and single set trigger.I heard it was in Lexington,Ky now.The stalking rifle stock was semi finished and I got it from Don Brown who revived the idea of a high end long range rifle.
Most of my contribution to muzzle loaders was locks and triggers until 2019 and decided to stop lock making and then made a few triggers and that was it.Lower back problems and working standing at a bench are not my ideas of fun so retiring was the only option left.
Bob Roller
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I have no issues with anyone taking the easy way to get into BP shooting, but I do have an issue with the idea that buying a gun in the white somehow makes one a builder or schooled in architecture.
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Some of us will always prefer doing scratch builds. I did put together a Kibler, and put together is the only description of it. It's not building a rifle, you are assembling parts basically. I parted with that rifle, as I prefer shooting guns I built myself. No, I don't make the locks and barrels, but there is something much more personal about a gun you build from a plank, to fit yourself perfectly. One reason we may see new scratch builders not starting the hobby, is there are fewer old timers around to help them through the hard spots in the learning curve.
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I hope we're not losing serious, long time builders to the kit world. We did lose Mr. Kibler, himself, as I understand he hasn't been building for a while now. His custom work is amazing!
The good kits are a certainly a boon to the sport, and were needed for quite some time. You can end up with a very nice gun for a very reasonable price. A price that fills that gap between what used to be the mainstream kits, and a custom gun.
I build Southern guns from a blank, so at first I was intimidated by the Kibler kits. Robots are making guns with inletting as good as my own... or almost. But I have also found that there will always be a market for handmade flintlocks. I have ancestors on both sides, who were early American farmers, settlers, and pioneers. They used handmade flintlocks (probably smoothbores); so for me as a reenactor, a handmade arm is important, as it is to many in the sport.
There's a big difference between a kit gun, and an arm built from a blank, using as many handmade parts as possible, and using more traditional methods of building. You can see the difference; and you can feel it when handling the gun. You have a truly one of a kind gun, wherein the gun, and all its' parts, reflect the design and execution of the craftsman.
People are where they are. My older brother still uses the Thompson Center (not) Hawken that I sold to him 48 years ago. He's taken several deer with it; and it's the only black powder gun he'll ever own. Most people, I think, will be satisfied with a well assembled and finished kit gun. Any gun, when used, becomes personal to the owner... even if it does look like everyone else's. Many, many years ago, I assembled a CVA Mountain rifle (made in the USA). It's the last percussion long arm I've owned... but it was a good shooter, and fun... and I often wish I had it back.
But there will always be those who recognize, and value, the intrinsic beauty of a well made custom gun. And some of those will love it enough that the'll want to carry on the traditions of hand building.
Hundreds of measurements. Thousands of decisions. Thousands of passes with the plane, rasp, and file. Hands performing tasks as the mind and eyes direct them to. At every turn lies the chance for success or failure. And when the result is a well designed and executed gun, it has a beauty that cannot be had from any kit gun. Fore me one of the challenges is to come as close to perfection as my human-ness will allow.
I've gotta say, though... I get a kick out of people putting together the new kits, and calling it a "build". It plays right to the ego, doesn't it. What do they actually build? Then again, there are those who would say I assemble guns, because I don't make my own barrels and locks. (I also by screws, bolts, and finishing supplies). I had to replace my bandsaw this past week. The whole thing came in three boxes. I opened the boxes, and assembled it... so do I get to tell everyone that I "built" my bandsaw?
My two cents.
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As a first post, this is a good topic. Glad to be here.
I'm no stranger to building furniture and restoring small antique pieces so I consider myself an average woodworker though I have built and restored simple furniture using hand planes, scrapers, polymerized oil finishes and french polishes, etc. I've also spent years shooting black powder; albeit all caplocks.
I'm in the middle of assembling my first kit and it's a Kibler fowler and it's the reason I joined this forum. I made this decision because I'm not a metallurgist or a carver; nor did I want to invest in the tools required to do it for a first attempt. I also wanted something better than the Traditions kits I see on the shelf. Be it not for reading of the well documented Kibler quality and simplicity for the price, I would not have spent the money on, or appreciated, a custom builder. Having a deeper appreciation for the art now, the prices of custom builds don't seem that high.
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This is a recurring topic. Of course there are folks new to the discussion and folks whose views change over time.
2018
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=50274.0
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I found that the taking of some chunk of wood and some metal bits and making something that shoots to be a cool thing to do. For me the building from scratch is half the fun of the process. The part that comes with time is the joy of knowing that this is how they did it back then and it looks like it. I have been impressed with the quality of the kits that are availble now and have built some from track as well as petonica when approched by those wanting something better than the TC CVA croud BC "before Chambers". I like the carving, engraving as well as the blacksmithing. I have helped ram up molds for making butt plates and making wood patterns for sand casting trigger guards. I know I am wierd and could care less. It took me 3 yrs to finish my first scratch build rifle and I still have it. It shoots really well and has won me a place in the top 2 at several matches over the years not that there were more than just two shooters..... I dont think the new generation of Kits will change the fact that there will always be those that want their gun to be set apart from the croud and seek out the custom gun builder. Or should we say gun stocker. We for the most part are stocking a gun if we are not making the barrel the lock the castings. I say the more we can pull into the community of the the Black Powder family the better.
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David B's comments re "gunstocker" reminded me of a noted custom builder, John Bivins, who as I recall, referred to himself as a "gunstocker". I guess it gets down to how you preceive yourself.
J.B.
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I think Eric has said things pretty well. Looking back 20 years or so to when I got into this stuff fairly heavy, it seems to me there are definitely fewer custom guns being built now. The high quality kit market emerged in the last 10 years or so and constitutes a pretty large percentage of good quality (non mass production) longrifles being built. Determining a cause can be a little tricky, though. Did the kit's cause this decline or had the decline already started and the kits came along and filled a void? To be honest, I'm not certain and I don't think anybody can be.
As I've said before, I'm proud of what we've done as a company and what we've contributed to traditional blackpowder in general. We have brought thousands of new people into this world. Change never pleases everyone, but it's certainly inevitable.
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A large percentage of folks who build from blanks started out by building a kit gun. This was as true in the 1970s as today. For me it was a Sharon Trade Rifle kit in 1977. Next build in 1979 was a build from a blank. The kit suppliers and ease of assembly have changed over time, but the way it folks get into building long rifles hasn’t, in my view.
A good many experienced custom builders have assembled a number of high quality kits for customers before Jim Kibler launched his kits. I know many who have assembled and customized Chambers kits for customers and friends. Now it’s a different supplier coming out with some new offerings.
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A large percentage of folks who build from blanks started out by building a kit gun. This was as true in the 1970s as today. For me it was a Sharon Trade Rifle kit in 1977. Next build in 1979 was a build from a blank. The kit suppliers and ease of assembly have changed over time, but the way it folks get into building long rifles hasn’t, in my view.
A good many experienced custom builders have assembled a number of high quality kits for customers before Jim Kibler launched his kits. I know many who have assembled and customized Chambers kits for customers and friends. Now it’s a different supplier coming out with some new offerings.
This may be so, but I'm not sure you've captured the magnitude of high quality kits being produced. It's nice to think things haven't really changed, but this isn't accurate. Without going into details, we produce at least 10X the number of kits that Chambers did 10 years ago.
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A large percentage of folks who build from blanks started out by building a kit gun. This was as true in the 1970s as today. For me it was a Sharon Trade Rifle kit in 1977. Next build in 1979 was a build from a blank. The kit suppliers and ease of assembly have changed over time, but the way it folks get into building long rifles hasn’t, in my view.
A good many experienced custom builders have assembled a number of high quality kits for customers before Jim Kibler launched his kits. I know many who have assembled and customized Chambers kits for customers and friends. Now it’s a different supplier coming out with some new offerings.
This may be so, but I'm not sure you've captured the magnitude of high quality kits being produced. It's nice to think things haven't really changed, but this isn't accurate. Without going into details, we produce at least 10X the number of kits that Chambers did 10 years ago.
Note to self.
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There are very few guys still working that can claim to have never started out with a kit. Guys like Earl Lanning or Wallace, who had to start out without a kit because there were no kits.
Many of the kits of the 70s and 80s were frustrating enough to actually ENCOURAGE scratch building as being easier (imho, anyway). Early on, I think the Pedersoli Bess and Charleville kits were the hottest ticket because they also tended to coincide with the bicentennial, at which point a to of people really jumped into blackpowder. Centermark got really big in the 80s sometime and into the early 1990s, and they weren't too terribly frustrating.
Jim said, "Did the kit's cause this decline or had the decline already started and the kits came along and filled a void? To be honest, I'm not certain and I don't think anybody can be."
Well, I feel pretty certain. I don't think the kits have anything whatsoever to do with the decline. It's lack of interest amongst modern youth in conjunction with a declining pool of interested buyers to pay someone a living wage to build from scratch in conjunction with lack of desire amongst potential builders to work at something that is extremely difficult to make a family-supporting wage.
Look at what's been happening in the antique market (KRA as example), which has for many years been somewhat intertwined with the higher-dollar contemporary market. I see a number of guns going at auction now as the old collectors die off (sorry to be blunt) that are going for well less than half of what they may have commanded 10-20 years ago. It's the same with many higher-end contemporaries, because the buying pool has by and large been the same for many years and it's shrinking faster than it's being replenished due to the natural lifespan of human beings.
Time marches on and popular interests change. Younger people getting into gun construction aren't looking to construct flintlocks, they're all hot to build and play with guns I obviously can't discuss here.
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I started with two kits in the mid to late 70s, a Thompson Center Hawken and an Ithaca Hawken. I wanted to get into flintlocks so my next project was a Southern Mtn. rifle from a blank in the early 80s. While not a perfect rifle it has won me countless matches, food, and liquor. That is satisfying. I've since built about 10 rifles and smoothbores, the last two years ago with parts I had lying around since the 90s. I just liked to build them from blanks, the whole process from building to finishing to shooting.
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Wow, I had no idea that this was such a polarizing issue. I can say that I have assembled and finished 5 kits and have one in progress. I wouldn't have any black powder guns otherwise unfortunately. I enjoy assembling and finishing ... as well as shooting. If I was younger, I might try "building" a rifle, but, as a gentleman earlier said, I am 3 days older than dirt.
I would say that I am sorry if my kit building offends some folks, but I'm not. I do what I enjoy doing. The finished product of some of these kits is beautiful and I really enjoy them.
I can appreciate the effort of the real "builds" and my hat is off to you, however, please don't rain on my tiny parade ;D
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I'm still working full time (hopefully that is going to change at the end of the school year). I've build a couple of from a blank but most from kits. Looking back I regret not spending more time building from a blank but chasing kids to sporting events, coaching and other responsibilities always seemed to get in the way.
The high quality of kits today are not only cost efficient but also a time efficient way of being able to hunt/shoot/reenact with a quality period correct firearm. Also starting from a pre-carved was a less intimidating way of getting into building from a blank. I hope that people will get the bug with the kits and then want to expand their knowledge and skill by building from a blank.
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Being a gun nut from birth, I had made the odd 'gun' of types as a kid, but my first serious rifle was Jim Chambers Mark Silver kit.
When this was finished, (and it's still as good as they day it was made and Sooo reliable!)
I figured I had short changed myself, so made a few more, all plank blanks, buying less parts each time.
What I am saying, is that a quality kit got me started, and It had never dawned on me that I could make a'proper' rifle until After I had completed a kit.
So, the kit, (Thank you Jim!) got me started, and from there I branched out to other archaic arms.
I see no polarizing between kit/no kit, the kit is a Very valuable contribution to out sport.
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Whether you're building from a blank or a kit it's critical to know what the finished gun is supposed to look like. Today's high quality kits get the average person there quicker. The exception to the rule person seems to knock it out of the park faster either way. Some of the instructional classes also help tip the scales.
High quality kits that look right along with knowledgeable instructions don't hurt anything.
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I'll give my story. When I was 12-13 I discovered muzzle loading. It was the mid 70s. I bought a TC Hawkin kit and tried to make it perfect, but got frustrated with some stumbling blocks and stopped building it. Bought one premade and shot it through my teens and bought a few other black powder rifles. Was so dejected about the kit failure, I never tried another until this year's Kibler.
While raising a family I couldn't afford a custom, though I loved looking at them in magazines. Being from Winston-Salem, I thought "one day I'll get the Old Salem gunsmith to make me a NC rifle..." But never did. 45 years went by, I went through many other vintage guns phases. Thought briefly about learning to build a rifle from scratch...but knew it would be another steep learning curve experience, which I've had many of.
A few years ago decided to get back to my roots, shoot muzzle loaders again, and try flintlocks. And learned more of my NC moutain heritage. So I bought a custom Appalachian gun from Don Bruton, a Gillespie Rifle. AFter a year - I decided to try a Kibler kit.
Note there was a 45 year gap in my 2 kits. And about a 20 year period when young when I couldn't afford buying a high end custom. I have a brother-in-law that saw my Kibler finished, and mentioned he got an "old flintlock kit" from a friend who never finished it. And now he's about to try...and will be frustrated because it's not easy. Then may go "dormant" for decades like I did. An easy kit is a GOOD thing.
I realize that besides general interest in "old things" declining, there is also the financial inability of young people to afford custom rifles. And before "ready made" kits were available, the difficulty of "almost ready" kits scared off the young men who considered building a kit. All three of these things hurt the career custom builders.
Today, with Kibler kits and the internet, I think many people are diving it. As they enjoy their kit, and their careers allow more disposible income, I bet they'll move into either A) building one from scratch, or B) paying a gunsmith to build a custom rifle. Demographics of fewer people into history or guns at all is the main risk now.
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My interest in muzzle loaders started with watching Disney's Danial Boon and Davie Crocket in the 60's. Those TV shows were so cool that I said to myself I got to have one of those rifles. I purchased one of those ubiquitous cheap pistol kits in the mid 60's and put it together and soon found out that they were a piece of junk. My first rifle was in 1968 from a bunch of odd parts from different places like a Numrich Arms .45 caliber barrel that I could afford, some parts from Dixie Gun Works. I think the stock also came from Dixie. It came out "shootable" but did not look so good and I ran into a whole bunch of repair issues. I started building from planks in 1969 and found out quickly that I could make any style that I liked and if I messed up, I learned how to fix my mistakes very quickly. You do learn a LOT from your mistakes. Now I will build more quality kits than from a plank because of my arthritis and age.
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Wow, I had no idea that this was such a polarizing issue. I can say that I have assembled and finished 5 kits and have one in progress. I wouldn't have any black powder guns otherwise unfortunately. I enjoy assembling and finishing ... as well as shooting. If I was younger, I might try "building" a rifle, but, as a gentleman earlier said, I am 3 days older than dirt.
I would say that I am sorry if my kit building offends some folks, but I'm not. I do what I enjoy doing. The finished product of some of these kits is beautiful and I really enjoy them.
I can appreciate the effort of the real "builds" and my hat is off to you, however, please don't rain on my tiny parade ;D
I’m not offended. As stated many times above, so many builders who eventually build from blanks started by building kits. Didn’t know you were having a parade, but I’ll cheer and rattle a cowbell for ya.
In any hobby there are degrees of immersion. The main thing for me is to enjoy it, keep my brain and hands engaged in interesting work, and enjoy the company of like-minded people. Lots of ways to do that.
The unique builds will always garner attention. Same with cars. I’ve got a Subaru Crosstrek. In Vermont, if mine wasn’t orange, nobody would notice as it’s practically the state car. For sure the Toyota Tacoma is the state truck. Not remarkable though very fine vehicles. If a Maserati or a restored 67 Mustang goes up our dirt road, I’ll take notice.
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Many of you know that I am a collector. I can argue that I am a serious collector. The vast majority of the pieces in my collection are contemporary flintlock rifles. I take pride in knowing that I own pieces made by some of the best makers to have ever picked up a tool. I currently own 3 rifles which started out as Chambers kits. These makers are Bob Harn, David Dodds, and Ian Pratt. All 3 are high art well executed pieces. I have another couple of guns on the way from other makers from another kit manufacturer.
Do I think that the kits have affected contemporary makers? No. If anything the kits out there have upped everybody’s game. I have had more folks come to my shop asking for personal instruction than ever. A nice percentage of those students will follow up with another kit or take the plunge and start on a stick build!
W
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There is no doubt that kits have had a significant impact on the hobby. Mostly good. Even awful non-historic kits have been a gateway to the hobby. Everyone has a story that flows down that creek. Fond memories of that cheap kit gun you started out with (and still carry) and the really nice gun you eventually broke the bank for... Besides most active top-shelf builders I hear of have waiting lists...
The fact that serious collectors collect finely wrought kit guns from accomplished known makers is proof that just like any art, it's mostly about the artist, not the materials. I treasure the Jim Chambers kit guns I have that are both built by a wellknown maker. They are decent reliable shooters too.
As a practitioner of the living history part of this hobby for a long time, I appreciate the fact that historically correct kits are available so I can drag a good gun around in the woods to hunt with and not cry (too hard) when it gets scratched up.
K
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For your information I didn't start out with any kits, when I started it was around in the early 2000's, but by that time, there were more resources too on information on how to build one from a blank. I had build quite a few before I even attempted at a kit through an order, and I have assembled possibly about 8 kits, they are some challenges, but still a lot less work especially Kibler's.
That being said, in thinking of losing work to kit builders, and there were quite a few things mentioned, but one thing that wasn't was the cost of building from a blank versus a kit, a kit is way more affordable with the work being 87% complete whereas the custom gun you starting from scratch and the cost is probably anywhere between who knows what but could end up to $10,000 or more, the way the economy is right now and also the cost of living, I can see where that could have some potentials.
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Regardless of what kit a beginner may put together, they gain the valuable experience of learning the relationship of parts to each other.
In the '70's in the midwest, it was common for at even the small rendezvous, people had enough parts on their blankets so you could gather enough to build a gun. I may have got spoiled by having the likes of Curly roll in driving the Polish War Wagon, brimming with parts.
My first build was from a plank, and fortunately had an experinced builder in all types of firearms living next door.
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The short answer NO!!! Age , social media/technology, other forms of entertainment/enjoyment have shown up over the past 15 years or so and so they garner our time/attention. We, the black powder . flintlock, front stuffers group of gents and ladies don't have this lack of involvement/interest problem all to ourselves. Music stores that give instrument lessons, even high school sports are seeing major reduction in participants. Umpires, referees , not sure what that will look like in 10 yrs. from today. Around here not everyone plays varsity football Friday nights under the lights. Now it's Thursday , Friday and Saturday football games. Not enough referees to go around Friday night. So with that said , I have built about 20 guns all from planks. I do it all but exclusively for the enjoyment it brings me. I am SO THANKFUL to all the rest of you for keeping the light on so I can enjoy playing , shooting and making flintlocks. Without you there would be no gun shows (Dixon's/Kempton, Lewisburg/Carlisle, CLA, Bama's Show, and so many others. You kit makers keep making kits, if anything you are a positive influence on this past time. You parts makers A BIG THANK YOU !!!! I am happy to see the contemporary gun makers getting all they can get for the craft. These people are accomplished professionals that have a long and well earned skill that still have to fight butt plate to nose cap for every dollar they make. The only difference between our extremly talented makers be it kit or plank from Alaska to Alabama up to Pennsylvania out to Ohio and Michigan and everywhere in between and our local dealer car/truck mechanics is their hourly rate. Around here $150.00 an hour for motor vehicle mechanics,$100.00 an hour for tractor mechanics. A BIG THANK YOU TO THIS SITE AND ITS MODERATORS. Steve
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About 12 years ago, Jim Kibler showed up at the NMLRA Gunsmithing seminar with a bunch of his first kit guns for the students of a class he was going to teach that week. A class on building one of his kits. A couple of us custom guys were standing around as he was unpacking one of the kits. Jim asked us what we thought of the kit. I was admiring the fit and finish of the stock and inletting, done by a machine and feeling a little intimidated I popped off; "Well dang Jim, if you shook the box I think the rifle would build itself!" I couldn't tell if Jim was offended or appreciative of my comment.
Everyone who showed up to that first class of Jim's at the seminar were new faces, newbies to gun building. These were people who would have never dreamed of signing up for a class to say build a Jaeger from a pricey hunk of English Walnut and a pile of crude brass castings. Each year there after at the Gunsmithing seminar, there was Kibler kit gun class. And, each year there were new faces, students in the class. Each year a few of those guys in that class would drift around to the other classes going on and watch what the plank/custom builders were learning. I have to believe a few of those guys have moved on to custom building though I don't know for certain.
In my area, there remains a fair number of people who want custom sidelock firearms built in period correct fashion. A good example here is I am currently finishing up a left handed fowler in Black Walnut for a customer, it has 1/4" of cast on and a length of pull to the trigger matched for him along with a few other specific features requested. I am not aware of any left handed kits or production guns out there. So, the left handed shooter has to come to a custom builder to get what he may want in an antique firearm build.
So, to answer the question are availability of these kit gun reducing the number of people willing and able to build a custom piece from a pile of parts and a board? IMO No. The numbers of people willing to spend say 300 hrs. to build one of these guns is dropping yes, but that is happening for some or all of the reasons already mentioned by others, not the kit guns themselves.
I am seeing problems for the custom builders from areas of greater concern than the kit gun market - inflation that has more than doubled the cost of parts for a build in the last 4 years, government regulations that are driving foundries that make some of the parts we need out of business, looming regulations that could result in a ban on lead both in the projectiles we use and in the parts for building just to name a few.
As our society and economy change, all forms of hand craft, art, which is what these guns really are, is going to become harder and harder to come by. Kudos to all on here who are fighting the head winds and keeping this art form alive.
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I'm new to the black powder life, under two years of interest. I've put together a Traditions, two Kiblers (Colonial and SMR), working on replacing the Colonial's stock because it was destroyed in a shipping mishap.
I can say that I would have never even considered building from a plank had I not had these kits to learn on. Now, I have an understanding for how the parts go together, some semblance of geometry, and different techniques. I'm in my thirties now so there may be a plank in my future, who can say.
It's all thanks to Jim Kibler making an heirloom quality rifle an accessible reality for me and the wonderful folks like yourselves online providing the information/inspiration to keep our heritage alive.
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This is interesting indeed. Back in the late 60 - 70 period of time. I got the bug and started doing CVA, T.C. kits and a few from pre carved stocks. To say I was turned off by kits is an understatement. So I tried scratch building. This I thoroughly enjoy doing through I still struggle with it.
But it gives me great satisfaction good bad or otherwise. Now a long comes Kibler an well his kits are amazingly simple to do. They are as persice as you'd want a kit to be. I have put three together for friends and I just don't understand how some have so much trouble.
Do these kits affect the custom makers ? I doubt it and a few guys advertise that they will finish a kit for you. I've seen a couple that were antique ed that were impressive . Surprised they were a Kibler kit.
Reading on other forums they sure have brought a lot of folks to muzzleloaders.
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Maybe the line is growing blurred between the two.
Some very high-end and Master gunmakers will send a blank out to be custom cut for barrel and perhaps for the ramrod. Farming out the grunt work is nothing new.
Some will buy parts from TRS or even Track to incorporate into their custom build.
It’s a step from all parts hand-made, but not at that generally recognized “kit” stage.
PS: a good many Master gunmakers do kits as well!
I asked Mike Gahagan once about his building a Kibler Colonial kit. He replied, “Why not?”.
Dang that gun became another work of art.
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My first flintlock was a Traditions Kentucky Rifle I bought in the 90’s just because I wanted to get into shooting flintlocks. Others may have had different experiences, but mine was extremely disappointing. The thing would actually misfire about 9 of every 10 pulls of the trigger. Not knowing what else was out there in terms of quality, that experience put me off of pursuing the hobby further for many years.
In about 2017, I visited Colonial Williamsburg and Eric showed me some of the guns in the gunsmith shop and told me about Dixon’s Fair. I attended that year and asked around about the best way to get started in the hobby again and everyone recommended I start with a Kibler kit because of historical correctness and ease of assembly. I took their advice.
Now, I’ve assembled a few Kibler kits, a couple of Chambers kits, and one precarve I got from Knob Mountain. I don’t consider myself a builder and have not built from a blank as of yet but may give it a go at some point. That said, it seems to me there is a certain level of innate artistic ability required to shape a nice looking stock from a blank, and not everybody is going to have that ability (it may turn out that I am among them). That to me is where higher end kits like Kibler’s really fill a void because it provides a kit that most can complete and have a nice looking rifle that is, in my opinion, a huge step up from what can be bought in big box stores in terms of historically correct appearance and with reliable function to boot.
Jay
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I find building from a plank easier than from a precarve. I stick a drawing of the gun to the wood. The drawing is as precise as I can make it. I then band saw out the profile. The square stock is made with 90* corners. The in-letting is done on my 90 year old milling machines as much as possible. The outside shaping falls into place because the exterior edges are already established by the square stock. With a precarve there are no precise references and often various parts are inletted wrong by the pantograph guy. For isntance the barrel inlet is done seperatly from the outside and it was not jigged up right. Or, commonly, the lock is in the wrong place. That means a lot of unnecessary head scratching takes place to make a stock of the wonkie dimensions.
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Hi,
While folks may pontificate on kits versus scratch builders, my concern is loss of suppliers of components and the loss of diversity in those components. This is particularly acute with cast steel parts such as standing breeches, trigger guards, and butt plates. It is even worse if you build pistols.
dave
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Hi,
While folks may pontificate on kits versus scratch builders, my concern is loss of suppliers of components and the loss of diversity in those components. This is particularly acute with cast steel parts such as standing breeches, trigger guards, and butt plates. It is even worse if you build pistols.
dave
Yep, when Peter Allen stopped casting and didn’t want to sell his business, a lot of parts went missing.
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Like any hobby or nonprofit, etc., stability and growth depends on new blood, which usually but not always means younger people. Without that, there is a slow but inexorable decline. I would suggest that most of the builders today, myself in that category, are older and we grew up using hand tools and fixing or making things just as a matter of course. We were inspired by countless books and movies. Today, few people are familiar or comfortable with hand tools. I think kits fill that void and provide an entry point into this hobby that often consumes us. New participants may become inspired to support nonprofits like CLA, history museums, etc.. But, I think it's foolish to think that going forward there will be the same level of folks building from scratch; it's declining now.
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I still have a five year backlog!
That was five years ago.
I’ve seen no end in sight as I had to stop taking custom orders.
Assembling kit guns and embellishment work has picked up dramatically.
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Yep, when Peter Allen stopped casting and didn’t want to sell his business, a lot of parts went missing.
And I am still enraged because a couple of those "reconversion" lock parts that were marketed through Track were exceptionally useful for easily customizing commercial locks to look more period-correct.
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The reason businesses don't always continue is because they're typically not financially viable. If there is enough money to be made someone will continue. They are more of a hobby than a proper business. This is the case with many small suppliers to the muzzleloading industry. In fact, I would guess there are very few businesses in this sector that would pass typical tests for profitability and sustainability.
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Jim is exactly right.
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" my concern is loss of suppliers of components and the loss of diversity in those components" smart dog said
that is what I have found(not finding the amount of good parts and suppliers) fewer every year and the go to shops just do not have/stock the components needed to the finish a build
the only hope is going to the builder fairs and hope they still make it /sell it or make it yourself
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... or make it yourself
Make it yourself, or pay a craftsman enough to make custom parts on a bespoke order.
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I couldn't build a Traditions kit to save my life nor would I want to. I had a Hawken scratch built for me but I couldn't afford to have it done now. Jim's kits are so easy to build that anybody can build one. That lets people like me have a quality long rifle at an affordable price. I doubt they're going to cut into the number of custom builders.
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New guy here. I put together a rifle from Jim and love it. What it did for me was light a fire inside thats driving me to build one. And, I have a perfectly built Kibler rifle to set the bar. Im currently collecting tools and studying. In my case the kit gun built a future builder. Win win as they say.
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I have a friend that is a very successful businessman. He often says that there is a difference between buying a business as an investment vs buying a business for a job.
Fleener
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I retired 6 years ago. I was a professional; transmission rebuilder for near 45 years and shop owner since 1987, it was the same, sort of thing in my world. I would give a price but, on the internet, they could buy a rebuilt transmission with a better warranty an pay less than I had to get to make a living! you have to change with times, or you will get left behind. I have built/done 19 of Jims guns,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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About 1980 I had a friend who tried to build his wife a flintlock rifle and chiseled the buttplate to the highly figured curly maple blank the very first thing and did a very bad job of it. He got mad and sold me the blank and buttplate for $5. I got the idea to build my 11 yo son a rifle since I had to cut off his handy work and it would leave a stock with a shorter pull. Another friend, gunmaker, stock supplier, sold me a .45 barrel with a flaw in the rifling 6" down from the muzzle for cheap. I found some other parts, made some other parts including a patch box and learned to engrave it. Without some building skills under my belt that rifle never would have existed. But it spends its whole life hanging from the wall of his house now. My building skills were whetted by two kits I had put together in the late 70s.
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The reason businesses don't always continue is because they're typically not financially viable. If there is enough money to be made someone will continue. They are more of a hobby than a proper business. This is the case with many small suppliers to the muzzleloading industry. In fact, I would guess there are very few businesses in this sector that would pass typical tests for profitability and sustainability.
This is spot on. Even those entities that have IRS designation as "non-profit" have to make a profit in order to continue their missions. Non-Profit really means non-taxable....but even some non-profits pay income taxes. But that's another matter.
Anyone with an idea that meets a demand from the public, and can provide a quality product at a reasonable price will usually succeed. But, as Jim stated, two very important words....Profitability and Sustainability.
Profit is not a dirty word.
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I think there has been a decline in custom built guns due to the "stupid" economy the last few years. Custom guns can't be built as cheaply as kits. Not to say the current kits are cheap, because the quality of parts are excellent! I think & hope when the economy improves, loosening the flow of funds, that demand for custom built muzzleloaders will improve. I have managed to stay busy building one order after another, but have no real backlog. I keep a variety of wood, barrels, locks, triggers, etc., on hand so I'm always working on something I still enjoy doing after 45 years or so.
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I didn’t begin this journey until I was almost 50…life had a few knuckle balls to throw at me first! My first build was a Chambers smooth rifle I built along side my dad who made a lefty Chambers fowler. Even though my dad has built amazing muzzleloaders since he was a young man, I was still terrified by the thought of making something from all those pieces and parts. He was an amazing teacher and I was hooked. Then I bought a Kibler southern rifle to have a better feel for nuances of stock shaping, etc. These two kits, although very different in skills required to complete, were the gateway for me to make several plank builds now. I enjoy not being limited by pre-inlet pre-shaped styles and any mistakes made are mine to own!
-Steve
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Yeah, I really don’t think we’re losing scratch makers to kits. Kits have been around forever- If anything I’m seeing more interest from younger folks than I was 10 years ago now that *some* authentic rifles are reaching affordability with things like the Kibler kits being produced. The more younger folks able to jump into the hobby with more accessible but authentic guns, the more they’ll get invested in the hobby and the more the hobby will grow.
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I think there has been a decline in custom built guns due to the "stupid" economy the last few years. Custom guns can't be built as cheaply as kits. Not to say the current kits are cheap, because the quality of parts are excellent! I think & hope when the economy improves, loosening the flow of funds, that demand for custom built muzzleloaders will improve. I have managed to stay busy building one order after another, but have no real backlog. I keep a variety of wood, barrels, locks, triggers, etc., on hand so I'm always working on something I still enjoy doing after 45 years or so.
The economy Tom, as well as the "aging" of some of the builders who seemed active just a few years ago.
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Some GREAT points and observations in this post. I would add this, I am in the firearms industry on a larger scale and that has been my career for sometime. Overall at this moment - the industry is in a steep decline. Politics AND the economy play two major roles. Couple that with oversaturation and disaster occurs for many companies.
All industries or businesses ebb and flow. For the longrifle / muzzleloading sector I see good things coming. For several reasons.
Jim Kibler has created a gateway drug. His higher end kits allow people to get a taste and and draw in a totally new crowd because now they can get a taste of high grade product and get pulled into the lifestyle. As many have stated, these kits got them in and now they want to scratch build. Perfect!
I am newer to the longrifle scene and get reminded that at 49 - I'm still a youngster compared to so many of the crowd. Well - better news is this - there are even younger people coming in behind me and we are bringing in sons and friends.... plus this mid aged crowd has more fluid income to spend on this stuff. From tools to components- to kits and classes..
I see and have seen for years, the greater dip in firearms means the fringe / sub categories grow.
An uptick in economy with a new president and a downturn in modern firearms- because of a new president - means people will put their money into interests and not perceived need.
I see good things coming - I got a distant relative signed up for a class in Southern OH and two.boys signed up for a tomahawk forging class in NC..... each of us needs to work to grow it.
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I don't see the good builders losing any business because of the kits. Look at the waiting lists to have a custom rifle built by one of the better builders. In my opinion, the kits are bringing more people into the game. I work with several younger people who were only into AR's and things like that. I left them shoot my flintlocks once and they now own and hunt with Kibler's kits. Without those quality kits, I feel that these guys would given up already had they been forced to use the store-bought rifles. Overall, I think the kits are a really good thing for flintlock shooting.
Just my 2 cents.
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Guys,
In truth, before a builder even obtains a piece of wood, a gun is 95% complete. Almost all of the work is in the metal - barrel, lock, screws, hardware. So, from this point of view, almost all guns we see today are built from a kit. I have a rifle that is nearly complete, and now to get a piece of wood.
Happy New Year to all,
Jim
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The various view points throughout this thread are very layered. Just like every other hands on hobby. How much money do you have? How much time do you have? How much space do you have? I think many people who build plank rifles with purchased barrels and locks could also build barrels and locks with the appropriate money, time and space.
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I built a lock from scratch once. Now the price of a new lock seems very low.
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Guys,
In truth, before a builder even obtains a piece of wood, a gun is 95% complete. Almost all of the work is in the metal - barrel, lock, screws, hardware. So, from this point of view, almost all guns we see today are built from a kit. I have a rifle that is nearly complete, and now to get a piece of wood.
Happy New Year to all,
Jim
But the idea that gunsmiths made all metal components themselves is antiquated. Locks and barrels were very often purchased. They could of course purchase cheaper than they could make themselves even if they had the ability.
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If you're an old geezer guy with a bucket or two full of money, or a not so old guy with the same buckets, then sure, have one of the big name guys build you a rifle. Then put it in the safe and only pull it out on special occasions. Don't even consider shooting it.
If you're a more common guy, and want a really good looking rifle, that you'll actually shoot or take hunting, I'd buy a one of the fine looking Kibler kits, have someone put it together and add some hand carving of my liking to it. Then I'd enjoy it, shoot the heck out of it, and at the end of the day, hang it back on the wall to admire.
And it shouldn't cost more than a third of a bucket.
And from pictures, there's already guys here doing that work.
John
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If I spend a couple buckets of money on a gun I am going to get my moneys worth out of it. The more a gun costs, the more I am going to shoot it.
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The kits are not going to have much effect on our better makers. In my opinion. Jim Chamber’s fine kits didn’t hurt their busines.
Bob
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I build guns for myself and family. Only time I buy anything contemporary is if I can resale it for a profit. I use every gun I've ever built or owned.
The exception to this is if they are made from a friend. Then they are a cherished possession..
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A follow up question could be, “Does running a Rifle Kit Company deter a Master builder from making a gun from scratch?” 🫣
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No custom building for me anytime soon. There's no way with business demands. Maybe someday... it's also difficult to step back and use less efficient methods.
I still have the urge to make some super high end guns one day and these will probably be a combination of hand work and machining.
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I hope that we are not going to lose builders to kits. But we never know what will happen in say 25 years. If people who buy guns/art, because that is what Jim Kibler was making before he started making kits, works of art, got payed what some artists get payed he would not even considered starting a kit business. Google Damien Hirst, just an artist that comes to mind. What would you rather have, a cow in formaldehyde or a beautiful gun. Apparently a cow in formaldehyde is more desirable.
More people need to get exposed to this and it seems Jim's kits has done this and it's a good thing. What I am trying to say is that custom gun makers will decline when they not making enough money or when demand declines. Just some tumbleweeds blowing around the inside of my empty scull. ::)
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My thoughts are Jim's kits are basically a custom gun in many ways.
The hard work of shaping and in letting are 99% done. So a custom builder can take it an run with it. That is as long as the customer likes any of the styles that Jim offers. The biggest or maybe not issue is the lop. Inlays, carving, engraving etc can be accomplished to the customers wants and needs.
I've seen some pretty impressive guns built with Jim's kits. JMHO
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In the mid-1970's, you could buy a T\C kit rifle for about $200. That's 1975 money. Adjusting for inflation, the 1975 dollar is now $5.90. So, take 200 x $5.90= $1,180. Close to a Kibler kit.
But the quality of the Kibler kit today vs the quality of a '75 T\C is night and day. The fit\finish of the Kibler, along with the lock quality and barrel rifling is superior to the old T\C models.
Both will shoot. Both will take big game. One is a "looks close" to what once was, and the other is a "that's what was used back in the day".
Today you can buy a 1970's T\C for about $400. In 50 years I wonder if you could buy a Kibler for $1,300? I'm thinking that would be tough.....but I won't be around to verify that!!
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No custom building for me anytime soon. There's no way with business demands. Maybe someday... it's also difficult to step back and use less efficient methods.
I still have the urge to make some super high end guns one day and these will probably be a combination of hand work and machining.
I can understand your decision 100%. It’s a shame we couldn’t clone you and let the other Jim just do his custom rifles.
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As a young builder, I'm pressed to chime in. The publicity surrounding today's kits has to offer has gotten the attention of a very important demographic in which there's a general attention deficit- I started with a cheap commercial kit and it immediately whetted an appetite to build from blanks that I've been feeding ever since. There are clear economic challenges that would-be "full time" custom builders face now, and I concur with what Dave mentioned earlier about the availability of quality components. But, I think there will always be folks out there for whom the process and study of building is as valuable as the product. Like most, I have a demanding life outside of my shop- but am still driven to make time for my tedious hobby and do hope it can be more than that someday. As long as there is (encouraging) community and mentorship surrounding the craft, I'm confident there will always be a few growing builders like myself quietly looking on.
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I started with a CVA kit back in the seventies and harvested many squirrels with that rifle. Then progressed to a Thompson center 50 cal. and took deer with that rifle. Then I enrolled in Jims kit building class at western Ky his first class in or around 2016 and became very fond of flintlocks. I've since purchased a SMR from and expertly detailed by Jim Palmer and latter finished a Woods runner. I moved to a custom built East Tenn. rifle from a custom builder His number 777 build and will probably progress further. Jims Kibler kits restarted my fire for this hobby!
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Like other new builders that chimed in, I got started on a kit just to see if I really wanted to invest the tremendous amount of time and money a lifetime of building from blanks entails. It helped me make a nice end product and learn some less painful lessons, and it encouraged me to build from a blank which I'm now just finishing. If it weren't for that kit and the time I spent learning from books/forums/videos, and seminars at Kempton, I'd never had made that first step.
I think for a lot of new folks the cost of building is a major impediment since they could buy a very nice center-fire rifle and scope for the same cost as a box of parts in a flintlock kit. This isn't a cheap hobby to get into for someone young with kids, mortgages, etc.
If someone doesn't have spare money, time, and exposure to others building from blanks, the chance of them doing that is pretty low. If we want to encourage new folks to build, we need to provide opportunities for folks to discover and learn about building flintlocks.
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I can say the Kibler kit got me started. Next was a pre-carve from Cabin Creek. Now I have a blank ready to go for my next adventure.
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Well, I got started last year using a Jim Chambers “Issac Haines” kit. A fair amount of inletting and finish work had to be done but it got me hooked. I built it to a shoo table state during a week long rifle building class and finished the rest at home. I have a rifle blank sitting in my shop now waiting to start my next project. FYI, I finished my rifle today. I started on it back in July. I love it.
(https://i.ibb.co/5hb6zhq/IMG-3467.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9HQNfHR)
(https://i.ibb.co/Yfw2LvK/IMG-3468.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NWbxywk)
(https://i.ibb.co/5x73k4j/IMG-3469.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Qj5VkQH)
(https://i.ibb.co/VwM4NwK/IMG-3475.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qJmQnJZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/9Y0hbP9/IMG-3473.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bdVFstg)
(https://i.ibb.co/SwfNWbf/IMG-3474.jpg) (https://ibb.co/whcy3Vc)
(https://i.ibb.co/64RPdH7/IMG-3470.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vJxPt36)
(https://i.ibb.co/s35gM9b/IMG-3482.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YjDNqBP)
(https://i.ibb.co/kQdCC6K/IMG-3485.jpg) (https://ibb.co/syBYYJj)
(https://i.ibb.co/C0w941x/IMG-3486.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GPdMGxg)
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Good job, Billy!
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Years ago I did a few "kits" which were as I remember, Caywoods, and Cabin Creeks. Both taxed the beginner on basic use of hand tools. These "kits" were not guns in the white by any means. They required final lock mortise work, triggers, and guards, and pinning. Touch hole liners had to be drilled and tapped, and the stocks were roughed out and required alot of work to reach final proportions.The barrels had to be tennoned and pinned and required much draw filing....You could call these semi custom I guess.
This of course was before CNC machining. If I remember Brads kits used a collection of parts from different suppliers. The barrels were Colerain's, the locks were from Chambers, the stocks were from local Pennsylvania boys who cut to his specs. Brad did hand tune the locks, which for a beginner is good, but I believe every rifleman should be able to tune a lock and set trigger weight.
Someone mentioned the disappearing suppliers of parts and I think that hit the nail on the head. Any gun I build these days will have a Bobby Hoyt barrel. His barrels are truly custom and built one at a time which I dig. Problem is, one day he will hang it up and I don't see anyone filling that void. Sure you can go CNC but such things have no interest to me. Stan Hollenbough no longer makes locks. His shop was less than an hour from me.
I have been building self backed long bows as long if not longer than long rifles. I started about 35 years ago. I would drive out of state to seek out fine osage. The whole process of selecting trees, felling them, staving them out and curing them was a step I relished and the beginning of a process that turned standing trees into works of art that had to function under the great stress of tension and compression.
I popped in on one of these "archery" sites not long ago to see many throwing plaudits at these Asian made "bows" that can be had for less than a C note. I guess I ain't in Kansas anymore. There is time and a season for everything, but I remember the "old days". I am only 63 but I do feel like Rip Van Winkle, asking myself how did we get here. There are no power tools in my shop. I use no magnification as most of my serious work is done on an outside bench to capture the benefits of the Sun. True I am a hobbyist. I spent 33 as an Electrical Contractor working in the mid-Atlantic, so I know all to well about technology. They very last thing I want is to introduce that stuff into my art.
I am not against those who do, Lord Knows. I write this to the OP. The answer is NO!!!....So long as I can get my hands on hand made parts, I will continue to build!......Hope everyone is keeping warm!
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Some years ago when Jim Kibler was introducing his kits and everybody on here was frothing at the mouth to get one, the point was made that it would effect the market for other suppliers and builders! Now here we are! There are only so many people that , buy muzzle loaders every year period! Including custom builds and kits . When people started buying his kits they , did`nt buy the others , this is not hard to figure out! The builders that were supporting the small suppliers , quit buying from them. As stated , many of them were barely making money to start! While "things change" , maybe all of you that were applauding Jim with vigor , can line up for your kit guns when all the suppliers and builders are gone!!! This sport is a joke compared to it`s former self. This site should be renamed the Kibler kit builder`s club! You ALL got what you rooted for ! Now enjoy it!!!
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That's called obtaining market share. There is a fix market for mouse traps. If you build a better one, you will begin to glean a bigger share of the market.
Called Capitalism. And it's working out so far.
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And Ford put horse breeders out of business. Some people cant see past there own nose.
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The result of the Industrial Revolution was automated manufacturing. This reduced the need for guilds to weave wool in the UK, the need for a village blacksmith to make you a new hoe or hammer, the need for a farmer to harvest every crop by hand, on and on. The invention of pneumatic tools made hard rock mining easier than the hammer jack method, painting a house with a paint sprayer easier than a brush, on...and on.
Progress is hard on the craftsmen, guilds, trades, and workers. The only reason many of us are here is because we started making TC or CVA kits in the 70s, and wanted something more authentic. That doesn't mean every 25 or 35 year old can commission a master gunsmith to make them a $5,000 rifle. They don't buy Rigby's or other bespoke hand made rifles either. Val Forget and Dixie gun works went to Italy to get cheap BP guns for poor Americans 45 years ago. It's just the way it is.
The "big picture" of the better Kibler kits is you get a lot more people shooting black powder than 15 years ago. That offers trickle down business for flints, horns, bags, and all that buckskinner stuff that was Dead in the Water 15 years ago. I know, I saw how big buckskinning was before the turn of the Century. And I see how many vendors are closing or not selling when they die. Regular reloading supplies too, like Reddington - gone. Or assessories, like Redfield. That's just two of the "R"s....
If the only way to get a good flintlock long rifle was to pay big bucks, and have long waits, BP would stop being even made.
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The Kibler kits lets those of us without the tools or the skills to use them have a decent rifle that otherwise we wouldn't be able to have. I can't afford to pay several thousand dollars for a rifle and I'm pretty sure there are plenty of others in the same boat. I had to scrimp and save for four months to be able to buy my Kibler. I got the woodsrunner because it was the easiest to build. If it had been a colonial or SMR it would still be in the box gathering dust because I don't even have the skills to build one of those. The only reasons I have my scratch built Hawken is the man that built it gave me a good deal because he had never built a rifle from blueprints and couldn't promise how it would turn out plus he let me trade some stuff on it. He did a pretty good job on it including making the ironware. As long as there are traditional bp shooters there's going to be people with the money to pay somebody to build rifles.
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No.
Robby
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One aspect of Kiblers kits is that they can be modified. IN the RC Model hobby it is called kit bashing.
I wonder if it would be possible for Kibler to offer a less finished stock. Maybe even a square stock with just the barrel and ramrod hole done. This would allow the customer to make something different out of it. Given that Jim's parts are top notch and his stocks are excellent, I'd definitely try one. I even have a project in mind.
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I have a physical disability (ask the Mrs and she may tell you I have a mental one in addition). It takes me hundreds more hours to complete a build from scratch than an "ordinary" person.
I don't have a Kibler.....yet. The time savings in one of his kits is worth it all by itself. Then the fact that you have a rifle with 100% quality components and you can put it together without needing to patch a mistake here or there is simply value.
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And Ford put horse breeders out of business. Some people cant see past there own nose.
Nay.... back in 1980's I owned 3 Ford Broncos, and a couple F250's (everyone had a rear main oil seal leak) and my wife and I still bred horses.....I still choose to use scythes and grass whips to cut my 3/4 acre bottom meadow. Not because I can't afford a lawn mower, but because it makes me happy and keeps my arms strong.... Some people love to paint with broad brushes.....b
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And Ford put horse breeders out of business. Some people cant see past there own nose.
Nay.... back in 1980's I owned 3 Ford Broncos, and a couple F250's (everyone had a rear main oil seal leak) and my wife and I still bred horses.....I still choose to use scythes and grass whips to cut my 3/4 acre bottom meadow. Not because I can't afford a lawn mower, but because it makes me happy and keeps my arms strong.... Some people love to paint with broad brushes.....b
"NAY"!!....I see......I see what you did there. ;D
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Horses have rear main leaks too!😂
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You guys make me smile!!!!!...........I enjoy this page more and more.....Good debate, tempered with respect...........Shalom gentlemen!!!!
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Well, thanks to stinkin' Jim Kibler I have now spent another $600 on various chisels, a lock and a plank of sugar maple. That's after I spent $1300 on one of his kits a year ago :)
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That's called obtaining market share. There is a fix market for mouse traps. If you build a better one, you will begin to glean a bigger share of the market.
Called Capitalism. And it's working out so far.
Yeah , I`m very familiar with Capitalism, but thanks for the attempted lesson! While Capitalism plays a role in everything we do , I was under the assumption that, a "gun building" section on a "traditional" blackpowder site , might actually be about "building" muzzleloaders!!! As time has passed I have noticed that very few actual gunbuilders participate. Some is due to the aging out , dying, health etc. Having been around this sport since the late 70s , I know most of the good builders on a personal level. I can tell you that I have heard from their own mouths why they avoid this site! Kibler kits and know it all newcomers that won`t listen to instruction! You can all be as hyped as you want over these kits but, realize that a lot of the surviving BP shooters came along during a time when "doing it yourself" was the mantra! During the Golden Age of BP shooting the 60s 70s and early 80s most everybody involved tried to make as much of their kit as possible! Many with varied levels of success. Those were good times! Maybe soon it will all hopefully dry up and be a distant memory!!! The current state is veiwed with sadness by many who lived during the hey day! Most of them are`nt going to come on here to tell you , they have washed their hands of it and moved on!
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Change is a part of human existance. For some, bitterness over "how it was" is too.
Many people have given their reasons for buying and loving the new, easier to make kits. Saying they should not be respected for it, is like saying someone who buys a low-end ready to shoot muzzleloader from a store is also not "worthy." It's a miopic attitude focused only on the question of this thread, "are we losing our builders..." But not caring about the Big Picture, which is demographics changed since the 1970s. Entertainment did too. Information did too, as did the amount of free time and disposible income.
To me, if ANY person of any age wants to get into black powder shooting today, that is a huge win for the whole lifestyle and ethic. Being elitist and saying "you are not worthy unless you build from scratch" is only worried about the "small picture" of how can Contemporary Long Rifle gunsmiths survive, without acknowledging it takes a ground swell of general interest in black powder, and history, BEFORE someone would consider buying a custom. Same as people poo-pooing someone's Thompson Center in the 80s.
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That's called obtaining market share. There is a fix market for mouse traps. If you build a better one, you will begin to glean a bigger share of the market.
Called Capitalism. And it's working out so far.
Yeah , I`m very familiar with Capitalism, but thanks for the attempted lesson! While Capitalism plays a role in everything we do , I was under the assumption that, a "gun building" section on a "traditional" blackpowder site , might actually be about "building" muzzleloaders!!! As time has passed I have noticed that very few actual gunbuilders participate. Some is due to the aging out , dying, health etc. Having been around this sport since the late 70s , I know most of the good builders on a personal level. I can tell you that I have heard from their own mouths why they avoid this site! Kibler kits and know it all newcomers that won`t listen to instruction! You can all be as hyped as you want over these kits but, realize that a lot of the surviving BP shooters came along during a time when "doing it yourself" was the mantra! During the Golden Age of BP shooting the 60s 70s and early 80s most everybody involved tried to make as much of their kit as possible! Many with varied levels of success. Those were good times! Maybe soon it will all hopefully dry up and be a distant memory!!! The current state is veiwed with sadness by many who lived during the hey day! Most of them are`nt going to come on here to tell you , they have washed their hands of it and moved on!
I feel you friend and there is much truth in what you say. I applaud your metal for speaking it publicly. With that said the blame should not be placed on JK....The blame lies in apathy and it is not just in the building of American Longrifles.....It is all facets of life. We live in an on demand society where men have little patience. I look at JK kits like this....They bring nothing new to the table. Granted you can carve them, inlay them and stain them different colors but you still will have a gun that has no uniqueness. They fit the bill for the on demand crowd that has no interest in the road less travelled.....I have no issue with that as I am free to choose my own way, my own road so to speak.
I have been stocking guns for close to 30 years and am fixed in my ways. I am a hobbyist who does this because it makes me happy. I understand that the pro builders use band saws and power tools to expedite the process. I simply choose not to, but If the customer has no issue , why should I. I hear that JK is a fine scratch builder which makes him bonafide in my opinion. I can't blame the guy for filling a niche.
I have followed this site for years. There are men on this site that I consider to be true masters....Allen Martin is one of them. Don't know if Brad Emig is a member here but he is another....My friend Bobby Hoyt is known for barrel making but he is a fine gun builder in his own right. I saw Rich Pierce on the FB machine and the guns that he puts together are awesome!!...I have taken a little from the recipes that these men offer up and have made my own cake, so to speak. Now that I recently retired I hope to be more active here. Both in giving advice and taking it , for everyman is my superior in that I may learn from him.......take care now.....Bill
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Change is a part of human existance. For some, bitterness over "how it was" is too.
In recreating historical events , arms and accoutrements , "how it was" is the basic idea!!! Duh
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Change is a part of human existance. For some, bitterness over "how it was" is too.
I would like to answer this...Please do not assume that your world view must be embraced by those around you. In fact the bitterness you speak of is often practiced by those who embrace "technology" towards those of us who enjoy the road less travelled......
Quick story.....as I have said before I consider myself an archer and bowyer first, and a gun builder second. Years ago I took one of my self backed osage bows to one of the indoor shooting ranges to check them out. There was a very large man bedecked in full carhartt's that asked me "do they really let you hunt with that stick"?, at which I answered in surly tone....I said...." You appear to probably dress out at about 250#. Larger than any whitetail I have taken, with a wider chest".....I then added, "If you are willing to go down range and get one your hands and knees broad side to me, I assure you that I could bury one of my hand fletched arrows in your chest clean up to the fletchings, canvas bibs and all"....When instantly he became enraged and asked me if I was threatening him at which I replied ..."only stating fact hoss".....
You see he was not happy to have his arrow launching platform born of technology....no sir, he wanted me to embrace his world view and took what was in his head and let it slip through his mouth.....b
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Change is a part of human existance. For some, bitterness over "how it was" is too.
In recreating historical events , arms and accoutrements , "how it was" is the basic idea!!! Duh
I agree.....When re-creating 18th and 19th century weapons I bend over backwards to use 18th and 19th century tools and methods
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Look, I've been shooting and loving history and muzzleloaders since I was 13 in the 70s. I moved out west to have more freedom and open land from my home in North Carolina, where my ancestors married into the Gillespie family in Mills River NC. I owned mules until recently, and taught my kids to ride, go into the wilderness, hunt. Other "antique hobbies" are I shoot wetplates, and was doing it when the 2nd generation of them were attending the reenactments and shooting new tintypes. I use cameras from the 1860s-70s, and make my own chemicals.
My avatar photo is me holding my first good rifle, a Gillespie built by Don Bruton. THAT created in me a need to try building (or finishing) one myself.
My world view is not bitter. People bemoaning change or how other people build rifles seem bitter to me. I love history, and love the Kibler kit I built over Christmas. There seems to be a few people that think their way is the "only true way" and are being critical of any other way. If that's not bitter....it's elitist.
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I know most of the good builders on a personal level. I can tell you that I have heard from their own mouths why they avoid this site!
"Those" builders, whomever they may be, will find out that even sticking their heads in the sand doesn't stop progress.
Many people today simply do not have the time necessary to learn how to build from a block of wood. Family, jobs etc. It's different today than it was in the '70's.
Read the book "Who moved my cheese". "Those" builders would do well to come back to this site, and then leverage what they know while embracing new technology.
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The only thing you take with you at death is your knowledge. If bitterness prevents you from sharing? Then take it with you and soak in it for eternity.
I have taught many dozens to make self bows and will teach anybody that has the determination to come over to the shop and learn. The cost of zero is affordable for most. I love sharing everything I have learned because everything I have learned was freely shared with me.
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I can only imagine the $#@* and giggles Jim gets when he reads some of the responses to his kits! Some of these “good old days” responses reminds me of an elderly gentleman listening in on a conversation at church one morning. After a few minutes he was asked “brother, don’t you miss the good old days?”, to which he immediately responded “absolutely not, I grew up in those so called good old days, I enjoy indoor plumbing and electricity along with all the other modern conveniences!”.
In reading some of these posts it seems everyone back in the “good old days” built their own guns and everything else! Makes you wonder how gunbuilders stayed in business with everyone building their own!
As to Jim Kibler, keep cranking them out Jim, you don’t seemed to be having any trouble selling your products!
And I’m still hoping you will offer a percussion SMR!😀
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[I have followed this site for years. There are men on this site that I consider to be true masters....Allen Martin is one of them. Don't know if Brad Emig is a member here but he is another....My friend Bobby Hoyt is known for barrel making but he is a fine gun builder in his own right. I saw Rich Pierce on the FB machine and the guns that he puts together are awesome!!...I have taken a little from the recipes that these men offer up and have made my own cake, so to speak. Now that I recently retired I hope to be more active here. Both in giving advice and taking it , for everyman is my superior in that I may learn from him.......take care now.....Bill
Bill, highlight of my hobby building career, to be mentioned with builders I consider great. I must take really good pictures! It’s possible that if I lived in their neck of the woods and started going pro in the 1980s I’d be just about there by now. Still having fun, trying to make interesting guns. I’ve got parts for at least another dozen in stock but am moving toward New England fowlers lately. Fun to try new directions.
There will always be custom guns made so long as in every generation some step up to make parts. I’m very encouraged by young builders with a wide range of skills who could do whatever they put their mind to.
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[I have followed this site for years. There are men on this site that I consider to be true masters....Allen Martin is one of them. Don't know if Brad Emig is a member here but he is another....My friend Bobby Hoyt is known for barrel making but he is a fine gun builder in his own right. I saw Rich Pierce on the FB machine and the guns that he puts together are awesome!!...I have taken a little from the recipes that these men offer up and have made my own cake, so to speak. Now that I recently retired I hope to be more active here. Both in giving advice and taking it , for everyman is my superior in that I may learn from him.......take care now.....Bill
Bill, highlight of my hobby building career, to be mentioned with builders I consider great. I must take really good pictures! It’s possible that if I lived in their neck of the woods and started going pro in the 1980s I’d be just about there by now. Still having fun, trying to make interesting guns. I’ve got parts for at least another dozen in stock but am moving toward New England fowlers lately. Fun to try new directions.
There will always be custom guns made so long as in every generation some step up to make parts. I’m very encouraged by young builders with a wide range of skills who could do whatever they put their mind to.
Rich, your name appeared on my FB page as "people you might know"....When I clicked on your page I was blown away by that pre-rev 20 bore fowler with the 4 foot Ed Rayl Barrel you posted a couple years back. Tastefully done!!!...I'll bet that thing hangs perfect off-hand....Even more impressive is the obvious love you and your wife share. As man who also shares a 45 year love affair with my wife, I feel that is the greatest thing we both share....If you would accept, I would love to send you a F.R......bill
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Some of the comments in this thread crack me up.
1. I am a pure amateur. I tried a few times from p!ank and have accepted that is not part of my skill set. I have used partial in laid and "built" using parts sourced from various places. I know for sure making a lock or a barrel is something I would never even try.
2. There are pro master craftsmen who post on this site. Undeniable artistry beyond what 95% of us could do. To view their work is humbling beyond belief. Often makes me want something I could never build or afford myself.
3. I did build a Kibler SMR, and now working on a Kibler fowler. With less effort and skill they give me a gun way better than I can build myself. I do try to put some unique adornment on them just because. None-the-less, they are still clearly his design. I am OK with that. They turn out nice and are fun to shoot and historically based. But not historically copied.
4. That is the funny thing about some of these comments. Folks lamenting kits, Kibler's in particular as just clones of one thing. When so many times I have read over just the few years I have been here amateur builders being chastised for not building something exactly matching some old gun in a book. Apparently having multiple guns look the same is only good if they were started from scratch, preferably with wood from a tree your grandpa planted.
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In my experience, kits serve a valuable purpose for those of us not skilled and /or committed enough to the muzzle loading hobby enough to build a rifle from scratch. I myself have a good dozen interests in the shooting world that vary from airguns, action pistol, precision 22, trap shooting bullseye pistol, centerfire...... In short, black powder is just one facet of my shooting interests and it competes for my time with the others. At 66, my eyes are going and my mechanical/artistic skills stagnated with arthritis and diabetes. So for me, the 3 kits I've built (including my current Kibler SMR) are likely as involved in gun building as I'm ever going to venture. I have no skills for stock shaping, precision inletting, intricate carving, metal shaping/ forging etc. This is pretty much as good as I get.
That said, I'm grateful for the availability of good kits and really enjoy the building process / level of effort involved. The kit gives me some output for the skills/passion I have without over commuting my time or skills.
To those committed enough to build from scratch, I envy your skills and the ability to focus on a single hobby like that. I really do. It's just not going to ever be my path. I won't apologize for it either. To each their own.
p.s. My Thanks for Jim Kibler for taking me that next step over the previous traditions/CVA kits I tried. In my experience, he has found the right balance of testing skills required for the average Joe vs the potential quality of the finished rifle. This SMR likely won't be the last of his kits i purchase.
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The modern kits and parts are in addition to whatever we had before. They do not take away, they add to. Any individual can choose to build however they want.
The modern quality kits can inspire individuals to build from scratch. For instance, I wanted a percussion lock for a Kibler SMR. I did my research and made a very nice percussion lock for my SMR. Without a high quality to lock to inspire and emulate I probably would not have made it.
I have suffered with CVA and TC locks. They are horrible excuses. That helps me appreciate high quality. I remember a conversion with a person who tried muzzle loading with a CVA back in the 80s. He gave up and condemned all MLs as unreliable junk.
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A question for those who have completed a KK....Outside of carving, decorative inlays, and staining, is there any inletting required? In other words do the lock mortises, tenons , triggers, guards, butt plate, and tang need some use of some basic tools to get everything to reach final fit?....Is the touch hole liner pre drilled, threaded and installed?
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A question for those who have completed a KK....Outside of carving, decorative inlays, and staining, is there any inletting required? In other words do the lock mortises, tenons , triggers, guards, butt plate, and tang need some use of some basic tools to get everything to reach final fit?....Is the touch hole liner pre drilled, threaded and installed?
I have assembled about 10 of them.
Virtually no inletting is required. IF something goes in to hard then use some marker on the part and see where it is binding. The square edges, like on a trigger guard might benefit from being sharpened up.
I like to loosen up the tang fit on the SMRs. So far they have all been a bit tight for my sensibilities. The tag is so easy to bend if you mess it up. It only takes light scraping along the length. I also loosen the lolly pop end fit a tiny bit. Your marker transfer is you friend here. It may not be necessary on all SMR kits.
The touch hole liner is already installed.
Kibler has a suggested tool list. They also have videos to follow along with. The instructions are good and work. Sanding is a skill, Kibler has sanding in his videos. Little sanding is needed.
IF you pay attention it it totally doable by almost anyone. You could slam one of these kits together as received and have a working rifle.
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If Jim had not made kits, suppliers would still be drying up. It's not his kits, it's the age of the people building guns and supplying those builders that is the problem. We do not need less kit guns, we need more, younger, people entering the hobby. It may be that the Kibler guns put a quality rifle in hands that might not have gotten one otherwise. We should be encouraging those shooters to build a second rifle, and a third.
I spoke with Mr. Hoyt a few months ago about a new barrel and he said he has no one to turn over his skills to. He has a helper who can do most of the work, a niece I think, but she will not be taking over. If I was 18 and single, I would be knocking on his door tomorrow.
I am fairly certain that paint by number sets did not harm the art world in the least.
DAve
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This all reminds me of Pa. in the 1970's, everyone was holding a T/C Hawken to hunt with. Mabey Kibler kits will do the same thing for a while, but I am sure there be many people who want to test themselves and find out just what they can do as I have.
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A question for those who have completed a KK....Outside of carving, decorative inlays, and staining, is there any inletting required? In other words do the lock mortises, tenons , triggers, guards, butt plate, and tang need some use of some basic tools to get everything to reach final fit?....Is the touch hole liner pre drilled, threaded and installed?
My woodsrunner didn't need any woodwork other than final sanding. All the holes were drilled and everything fit right out of the box. The colonial and SMR are harder kits unless something has changed. Holes need to be drilled and the lock bolt holes have to be drilled and tapped. I think they require some finish work on the inlets. The tool marks weren't even bad on the barrel. Jim says to draw file them out but I found it too easy to get the file off level so I just sanded them down close enough to brown it. You don't have to have a perfectly slick surface to brown like you do with bluing. This is the barrel still in the shipping crate.
(https://i.imgur.com/7oRbMGyl.png)
Butt plate and trigger guard come installed.
(https://i.imgur.com/QyUBGfBl.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/UgIGCNJl.png)
As for the lock I filed down the parting lines from the mold on the cock and frizzen and left everything else as it was.
(https://i.imgur.com/jC8IKP7l.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/gHPzb1Vl.png)
It even comes with a flint installed.
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A question for those who have completed a KK....Outside of carving, decorative inlays, and staining, is there any inletting required? In other words do the lock mortises, tenons , triggers, guards, butt plate, and tang need some use of some basic tools to get everything to reach final fit?....Is the touch hole liner pre drilled, threaded and installed?
I have assembled about 10 of them.
Virtually no inletting is required. IF something goes in to hard then use some marker on the part and see where it is binding. The square edges, like on a trigger guard might benefit from being sharpened up.
I like to loosen up the tang fit on the SMRs. So far they have all been a bit tight for my sensibilities. The tag is so easy to bend if you mess it up. It only takes light scraping along the length. I also loosen the lolly pop end fit a tiny bit. Your marker transfer is you friend here. It may not be necessary on all SMR kits.
The touch hole liner is already installed.
Kibler has a suggested tool list. They also have videos to follow along with. The instructions are good and work. Sanding is a skill, Kibler has sanding in his videos. Little sanding is needed.
IF you pay attention it it totally doable by almost anyone. You could slam one of these kits together as received and have a working rifle.
So basically these are not gun kits at all, but rather guns being sold in the white. I have no problem with that, but should they not be marketed as such so that the buyer is aware that he will have no sweat equity in the piece other than staining and blueing?....How do guns sold in the white teach young "builders" or old "builders" gun making skills????......I think I have had my say in this thread. I can add nothing further to it.....Unless I am directly questioned I will yield the floor gentlemen.....Bill
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So basically these are not gun kits at all, but rather guns being sold in the white. I have no problem with that, but should they not be marketed as such so that the buyer is aware that he will have no sweat equity in the piece other than staining and blueing?....How do guns sold in the white teach young "builders" or old "builders" gun making skills????......I think I have had my say in this thread. I can add nothing further to it.....Unless I am directly questioned I will yield the floor gentlemen.....Bill
I wouldn't call them guns in the white. They do require some work but I do see your point. Would I rather have a rifle I built out of a plank myself? You betcha but I'm 68 years old and never developed any woodworking skills. I tried to build a CVA pistol kit in the 70's that was 95% inlet. I got it to shoot but it looked like $#@*. The Kibler kits allow me to have a rifle at a level of quality and originality that I'd never have otherwise. Like it or not there is a market for them and it's mostly people like me buying them that aren't going to hurt the scratch builders. We were never going to buy anything from a scratch builder anyway. That's just my take on it.
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the joy is in the journey , learning new things and the more work involved the greater gratification and satisfaction on a job well done. A feeling of I've earned this ..... and yes the mistakes add to the build experience, prompting me to do better on the next build ... next build ....next build
>>>-->God Willing
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All the work is not done for you. The parts you see the most, finishing, carving, engraving and such are all up to as the assembler. What you learn is what a ML is supposed to be made like, the mechanical details and the architecture. You do not learn that from an old school parts sets or mass marked kits full of cheap cast parts. You do not learn that from a drawing or picture. Assembling, holding and studying a Kibler made me understand much better what I did not know. They improved my full scratch builds a lot. Not everyone has access to quality originals to study.
The actual in letting and metal work is just grunt work. IT is the bare minimum. A decent machinist or model maker can do it. It is not artistic. Until you hold and study a well made rifle you have no idea what your own work is lacking. To put it another way, you could try to copy a sculpture from a picture. You would fail. To get in the ball part you need to compare your work side by side with the original. You need to lay hands on it and understand the contours. Then if you have talent and experience you may get close. With making hundreds of guns from scratch comes the ability to pull it off. Jim Kibler gives you that experience and talent with every kit.
Not that I am telling anyone they are having fun wrong. Any time shooting is good for the hobby.
But a shoddy gun put to together in an amateurish way is not "just as good". I have noticed that some people get very upset when you try to help them. The defend their gun like a proud parent. They take it personally, being disrespectful of their gun, and making a personal attack.
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I've only seen one kit, in the box.
It's looks to me that if you skip the wood finish, you could have one of these kits put together and be shooting it in about an hour!
Seems my words above might have been misunderstood. If I was going to put a kit together, this would be the one!
John
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Yes we are losing builders. Those builders who will build a rifle for you in the evenings after working their day job. They build a quality piece for a Price that they do not have to have to live on.
For those of us with two right thumbs who might want to try and build one but lack the skills with current lh offerings, these builders would do it for you at a reasonable price. We have lost their teaching time as well. I call them hobby builders who make a high quality product. They are not free.
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I enjoyed assembling, touching up the few parts for perfect fit, and most of all finishing the metal and wood. I did a SMR, and there were parts that would not fit if you didn't do some chiseling, like the buttplate and the ramrod entry pipe. Both took me several hours over several days to get just right. Then I decided to add a toeplate, cutting one out of an old antique tool. Worked on filing that down and fitting for several hours over several days, again to try to get it just right.
Yes, you are basically buying a rifle that needs some fine tuning on the assembly, then finishing. Like the plastic ship and plane and tank models people built when I was young, you could tell one that someone slapped together. Parts with large gaps, glue everywhere, things out of line, ....shoddy work can be done by anyone in a hurry. I went slow and enjoyed the process and again, that is mostly in the finishing. The most fun part of wood work to me.
There seems to be a couple of people who refuse to think this type of purchase is worthy. Their attitude smells of snooty elitism and "I'm better than you because I do something you can't." Well, every one of us is good at some things, and bad at some things. I'm sure I'm better at a lot of things (like systems engineering, training fighter pilots, etc), more than spending years learning to build a rifle from a plank of wood, casting or forging my own parts, and using only 150 year old chisels and no sandpaper. Cronies in many hobbies (sorry, this is not a lifestyle for me) drive out newbies with their arrogance and looking down their noses at anything different. THAT is why so many hobbies have died on the vine the past 30 years. It saddens me, because I too remember the Buckskinner days of the 70s.
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I think for every one lost, 2 or 3 might be gained, over time, but then, these kits are wonderfully made and designed kits.
3 of the 4 and a person has his or her battery in only 3 guns, oft times less expensive than a single rifle from a well known builder.
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Everyone I personally know that has a Kibler has then wanted more guns, more custom gear, etc. They definitely give people the urge to get more muzzleloaders, both Jim's other kits as well as custom made guns. Most "gun guys" aren't going to have just one or two guns. They like guns, so they buy more guns that they like. Often it progresses to more and more expensive guns as they get deeper into it and get more means to afford better, custom pieces. Kibler lets people get started with a quality gun that isn't going to turn them away in frustration unlike many other flintlocks of old. Their offerings are great for our hobby, and they've been finding their way into tv series like Outlander making our popular culture representations of muzzleloading more accurate too which can also lead to more interest in muzzleloaders.
The one thing that I see that limits people's interest is that powder and other supplies are difficult to buy locally, and there aren't very many active clubs that can be readily joined. I've been building my own "club" by pulling as many of my shooting buddies over to the "dark side" as I can. They all know I intend to convince them all to have at least one longrifle. One of them has built two Kiblers. Another built one Kibler. Someone else bought a used Browning "Mountain Rifle" but sold it, so he can get something better soon. Another has two or three used custom guns they bought at auction, etc. No one that shoots with me hasn't shot a muzzleloader because I make sure they shoot one if they come out with us. Those that already have shot one but haven't bought their own yet, I try to get behind one of my muzzleloaders almost every time we shoot.
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This thread was opened NOT to judge one kit or another(or those who choose them) but to point out that without the dwindling suppliers of parts we might have fewer options in the future .
As we age our views change the average age of flintlock guys is 50 ,(or up)
The statement of kits being a gate into gun assembly ,then building seems to be the new norm, but like the 70s-80s you might only see one brand of flint rifle(thompson center)
Till the revival of the custom hobby builders and pros. The hope is all kits will up their game/parts .
I like the fact that more people are trying the sport and the adventure of rifle assembly and hope they might try building.
But keep in mind that if we don't support our flintlock based shops(Dixons , Log Cabin , in person and mail order track of the wolf, stone wall outfitters )we will loose our options as we are loosing the parts suppliers .
ONE size fits all is NOT the way to move on ,just as we are different so are our chouses ,but if we loose the suppliers we loose our chouses,
With that said I hope to see All At the 18th Century Artison show or the Kempton Gun Makers Fair(do't miss Dixon's if you go or Cabela's)
The best example of what I'm trying to say is a cut agate will spark in a flintlock ,But most would rather have a custom Knapped Flint/chert !
They both spark but one just seems spark brighter in our Locks.
Don't limit your options expand your mind and our sport ,enjoy
(https://i.ibb.co/1LTFKPD/thumbnail-1.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Give a man a fish he eats for a day , Teach a man to fish he eats for a life !
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I’m very late to this thread and most of what I think on the topic has been covered already. But as a relatively younger and newer builder than most on here I will add a few comments and observations:
1) My gateway into this hobby was a Lyman Trade Rifle. While it was a great production gun for the money, it is certainly no Kibler in terms of appeal. So while production and kit guns help get people into the hobby, I don’t know how much of a difference the better quality of what is available today matters. In fact, it was the shortcomings of the production gun that led me to want a “proper” longrifle.
2) I haven’t done a Kibler kit, but I have experience with two other kits and after building one from a blank, I have to say that was ultimately easier and a better result than stumbling through and solving problems with the kits. I also learned a lot more by starting from scratch. As I said I am younger than most on here but what holds me back is one thing: time. With a full time job and a family to raise I do not have the time to commit to building guns. To me the biggest advantage of a kit like Kibler is the potential time savings. Working from other kits did not save me any time compared to starting with blank.
3) For the 20 years or so that I have been a blackpowder enthusiast, my observation has been that most in this hobby are “cotton tops”, to borrow a term from earlier in this thread. So are we dealing with the same population of cotton tops who are now that much older, or is this a hobby that most don’t get into until later in life? I suspect it is some of each, but I also believe that many carry the interest their entire lives but don’t jump in with both feet until retirement. As old guys age out, they are replaced by the next generation of old guys, as it were.
4) Biggest threat to the industry that I see is not whether guys build from kits or blanks but the overall decline in our culture, values, and discipline that are catalysts behind this hobby. Today’s generations are being raised to be ashamed of our country’s history and heritage and not many boys are growing up playing cowboys and Indians and watching Davy Crocket on Saturday mornings. In addition, the electronics age has given us shorter attention spans and the desire for instant gratification. These are not attributes of an artisan. I hope that I am wrong and there will continue to be good recruitment in this hobby, even if it’s just fresh cotton tops, but there are some trends that will need to change as those cotton tops come of age.
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I dont have any idea how many scratch builders are lost to kit building but I,m sure some are lost because of a lack of parts as has been already said. Maybe a more friendly political environment will spur some new production of these parts. :-\
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What lack of parts? A quick google search turns up several places that sell reproduction parts. Chambers, Davis and L&R are still selling locks. A few places sell stocks with various stages of completion.
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There are MANY times I have seen on this very forum where people have had trouble finding specific parts such as correct for the build ( school ) castings as an example. ;)
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One thought I have had is when we look back now we see the beauty of the guns built 200+ years ago with the engraving and carving using the tools they had. I think folks 200 years from now are going to see all these kits that have been assembled and IMO most don't have carving (although I see some have machine incised carving} and no engraving and wonder why these new guns are not as elaborate or beautiful as the ones before. Are they going to wonder how and why we regressed?
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JDavidA, I think you may be right to a certain extent but of course not all those old guns were elaborate. One is featured right now in the Antique Collectors section of this forum.
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What lack of parts? A quick google search turns up several places that sell reproduction parts. Chambers, Davis and L&R are still selling locks. A few places sell stocks with various stages of completion.
You can get parts and build “a” gun. But if you want to build something specific, and unusual, you may not find what you’re looking for, whereas 20 years ago there were many more suppliers. Several custom barrel suppliers are out of business or way down in production as they age out and have not found anyone who wants to carry on. Davis locks seems to have petered out. I can’t find their English round faced lock. The Reeves Goehring castings, once the foundation of custom builds, are in short supply and undersized as copies of copies keep getting more shrinkage. Rumor has it another guy who stepped up offering brass castings finds foundries not eager for small runs. All the Peter Allen castings are gone, which affects everything from Hawken to jaeger parts. These are but a few examples. This is due to many factors. It’s never been lucrative to make ML parts.
My advice is to buy enough parts when you find them to build 10 or 20 guns. That keeps the suppliers in a good cash flow situation. Then when you realize, “I’m not interested or don’t have time to do THAT build, sell the parts here. They go fast.
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Rich I second what you said. I'm currently trying to finish two pistols an both scratch build. I even advertised here that I needed two trigger guards.
If it wasn't for AZ Muzzleloaders I'd still be looking. Everywhere I looked they were out of stock.
Now the way its going. You better make it yourself or wait a longtime.
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There has been great wisdom in some of these posts. Lone Wolf and Rich Pierce in particular speak pointedly from the facts of the market and not emotions or bitterness. Good comments!
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What I see is not the kits, but old age is taking away the elderly builders. I was so glad to see Smart Dog training an apprentice! What ever it takes to get young builders interested is what we need.
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What might be needed is more Mentors ,
the flintlock rifle building classes at the Jacobsburg Pa Long rifle museum was canceled yrs ago due to insurance being canceled, but they still have horn and bag building classes
Mr Pratt , Brooks, Estes and others hold classes that are great places to get the knowledge passed along.
The other GREAT RESOURSE are the build videos. From Kibler, Grumpy Gunsmith of Williamsburg, NATIONAL MUZZLE LOADING RIFLE ASSOCIATION and the young builders like B Kauffman on you tube and rumble
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I almost forgot the kempton gunmakers seminars
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All the Peter Allen castings are gone, which affects everything from Hawken to jaeger parts. These are but a few examples.
Back in 1998-2000 I bought out several old suppliers, lock stock, and barrel. They were in business in the 60s and 70s. Several 100s of parts by Allen, Baxter, Siler, Haddaway, Northstar and many others. I still have several 100s left, but unfortunately most of the popular parts have been sold and those remaining are for guns that no one is building today. Perhaps we'll see a resurgence of percussion and half-stock guns by newer builders.