Are we loosing our builders to Kit rifles

[recurve]

As all things near finished kit rifles are a double edge sword,
while they increase our shooter numbers do they harm the pro/hobby builders/suppliers who build the old way>>>-->from gathered parts & stocks?
while it's nice to put together a rifle from a 80% finished kit, does help or harm anything?

the reason I ask fallows:
 I was talking to a longtime owner of a famous muzzleloader shop, who said the guys willing to build from plank or parts are vanishing, fewer every year.

Are we losing the builders of custom rifles pro or hobby enthusiasts or is this just a part of  game a new way forward?

I did notice that trying to gather parts for my latest build there seemed to be fewer suppliers, harder to find good parts (other than at the gun builders fairs)

[Eric Kettenburg]

Oh boy.  Gonna get hot in here!   

JMHO but we're losing scratch builders to (1) age and (2) lack of interest amongst younger people.  Kits have been around forever.  I don't think better kits have anything to do with it.  In fact, I think super-high-quality kits like what Jim is putting out now are actually a plus in terms of getting new people hooked with the bug, because older "kits" were typically a bigger PITA than just going at it from scratch.  No offense to Jim but if you enjoy the work involved in building a rifle either from a kit or from scratch, you can only build so much of the same thing before you get bored and want to stretch out a bit, at which point you start eyeballing blanks....

[HSmithTX]

From my perspective, until a quality kit is offered in each school the guys that fall off into the rabbit hole and really get into it are going to have to build from a plank or buy from someone that builds from a plank.  I don't know how many are falling off into the rabbit hole but I suspect that number is probably fairly stable, over the years I have known quite a few likeminded people that don't do things a little bit. For me, I wanted to extend my hunting season so I bought a muzzleloader, a factory built flintlock.  I shot it a little,  hunted with it,  and was 110% hooked.  I have built one from a "kit" I bought from the P company,  never again, I have also collected a half a dozen planks, locks, barrels etc to build what I want the way I want it. I went to work for a startup company almost a year ago so time to start builds has been super hard to come by but I have plans to get started very soon.

I also see the Kibler kits in particular as a gateway drug, they offer I think 4 different kits and some options in each one.  If a guy is able to get the kit, put it together and come up with a pretty decent to excellent product he will be far more likely to buy a plank and a barrel than a guy that has never done it and his odds of success with a Kibler kit is astronomically higher than with some of the other "kits" that are offered. That is my opinion anyway. 

[Jim Kibler]

I was talking to my buddy Ian Pratt a while ago.  He teaches quite a number of classes and makes a point of asking students how they got into this stuff and how they ended up taking classes.  Ian said that probably 90% of students (if I recall correctly) mentioned that they have started with our kits.  Basically, most of those who enter this traditional black powder world end up coming through us initially.

This certainly makes us feel good.

Jim

[rich pierce]

In general, there have always been a small percentage of builders who want to be artisans. Who want to study original guns and design a build, and source and make parts, invest time and money and thinking into a “blank” build. There were probably more in the early days because pre carved stocks were limited. But there’s a whole world of folks who built Track kits, Pecatonica kits, Golden Age kits (remember them?), Sharon kits, Cherry Corners kits, Green River Rifle Works kits, Dunlap kits, Chambers kits, ……. even Traditions kits that are seldom shown here because folks here might find them uninteresting.

There’s been a switch by many who would be doing other kits, to the “assemble in 6 hours” kits as they are a great value, historically accurate, and fine functioning guns. And the vast majority of serious hobby shooters I know, who do woods walks around here, wouldn’t know what the basis of a fine build from a blank was. Wouldn’t know an Oerter from a Dickert from a Schroyer from a Beck from a Peter Berry or a Bonewitz. Nor would they care. 75% of club shooters I know don’t own have a personal library on original guns. And that’s fine - but I need to remember we are a very small group of craftsmen.

I want a “fowler.”  I want a “Hawken.”  I want a “colonial rifle.”  That’s as deep as it gets for most. And far more are in the “I’d like to have a flintlock” category.

I don’t think the availability of high quality, easy to assemble kits has nearly as much impact as the lack of interest in diving deep.

[Steeltrap]

You can buy a high quality Kibler Woodsrunner for $860 plus a high quality lock that needs zero tuning for $315. So, total investment is $1,175 plus shipping and tax.

You can buy a Traditions flintlock rifle for under $600. It's not a reproduction of a historic rifle. It has a lock, barrel, trigger all put together on whatever type of stock it is. It sure works for hunting.....but comparison to the Kibler....."pretty" is a word not associated with Traditions.

The old gun builders are fading. The cost of some of those builders run $1,700 and up. I've seen some at over $3-K.

I think it's tough for a scratch builder to compete with a Kibler kit. And I don't think it's a bad thing to own a quality Kibler rifle for the $1,200 price range (and up if you want) that an end buyer\user can complete without a lot of specialized knowledge.

If that drives the competition builder out of the market, then that's what a free market does. I see nothing wrong with that.

[P.W.Berkuta]

At 76 I don't have the stamina to build all my customers rifles from planks anymore.  Most of my maple planks that I have left are 2-7/8" thick and average 22"wide and 5-1/2 feet long. This adds up to a LOT or weight to get up on the bandsaw to cut out the profile. Then there is the work involved getting it to the point of doing the final shaping. What use to take me a week now takes me more than double that. There are some customers that are willing to wait for a full-on custom rifle, but they are getting few and far in-between. Factor in the cost of parts and labor and the price of a custom build is pretty steep compared to a plug and play Kimber kit.

[HighUintas]

I think it is likely a wash. It likely gets people hooked on flintlocks at a much higher rate than someone's first flintlock being a Traditions, or maybe a kit that requires much more previous skill which could potentially turn the new builder off of building from scratch. But, some people just don't have as much time or space to build one from scratch so they opt for a kit.

It seems to me that high quality kits can serve as a gateway to scratch building.

I'm 38 with 3 children, one of which is 3 years old, I have far too many hobbies, and my favorites involve a high level of physical activity. Even though I was able to work my way through scratch building a flintlock, I likely won't do one again until my toddler is a little older or I get older and can't sustain the same physical activity I enjoy. The next one may be a kit.

But I'll absolutely be building them regularly after my little girl is out of the house.

[davec2]

I think Eric hit the nail on the head......look at pictures posted on this site of all the shows back there in the east....almost every one in any picture is a "cotton top".  We are all three days older than dirt (except for a very few like Jim K and Eric).  Nobody is going to build from kits or planks if the whole interest in these weapons dies out.  If Jim's kits bring in a new generation of interested people, young or old, there will be a resurgence of interest in building from scratch as well.  However, there will also, I believe, be a demand for higher quality parts than those available in the past.  I think if someone comes into the muzzle loading world via one of Jim's kits and then wants to build from scratch later on, they will probably not be happy with a lot of the older castings, barrels, locks, etc., that were no where near the quality of the currently available parts.

[Scota4570]

I have now gone to both extremes.  I love to do a Kibler kit.  It is satisfying, quick, and the end result is better than I can do from scratch. 

ON the other hand, I scratch build.  Not for a result but, to have something on the bench to work on when the mood strikes.  I try to make as much of it as possible in order to not rely on others.  Sometimes I make something that can not be done any other way. For instance, I am contemplating doing another Armstrong with all the trimmings.   

The in between, parts sets with cast parts and poorly pantographed wood, are in my rear view mirror.  They are too frustrating and the end result is a rifle that is of compromised quality.  I see no point is fighting them and not having a top quality rifle to show for it.

[sz]

I see the high grade kits as a blessing.  The down side is "you get what you get" and "you get what you can find".  Left handers get a lot fewer choices. The very tall, very short and those with interests outside of the styles and types offered are just out of luck. Want a choice of Length of pull, drop at toe and heel, cast off or drop at comb that fits you? Tough!

But demand is needed to get younger men to try to learn the art.  I started when  I was 12. I am now pushing 70.  I have made a LOT more rifles from blanks then from semi-inlet stocks.  But today you can own a very good rifle or smoothbore made to corrects shapes, and make it yourself which are far better than most kits available in the 60s and 70s.  And as demand outstrips supply, I am sure young men will start to appear in the craft.

 My #1 concern is loosing parts makers. It seems to me in the coming days the new men are going to have to learn a lot more foundry work as well as wood work.

I am working myself towards retirement.  I have been as far behind as 8 years in the past and about 6 years ago I stopped taking on any new orders.  When I get caught up I will still build, but I will not allow a 'back log" any deeper then 2 guns.  I am too old to accept the responsibility of deep bag-logs.

It's a bit sad and also a bit amusing that I have had the same conversation now with about 10 men asking me to take an order.  The overview of all of them goes something like this:

Man asking; I am now retired and I worked X number of years and now I have time and a pension so now I feel I can order one of your guns.

Me;  How long have you wanted one?

Man Asking;  "Oh 25 years or so" (or 30 or in one case 36)

Me;  You waited 25 years to ask"?

Man asking ; Yeah  I had to wait until I was retired".

Me: In the 25 -XX years you waited, I got 25-XX years older, and now I am retiring too.

Man asking:  Oh no.,..... you can't do that.  I have waited XXX long!

Me; Yes I can.  And I am.



This is not to say I would not ever make a rifle for men like that, but if I can I will and if I can't or if the timing is bad, or if I want to go hunting or kayaking or simply if I don't feel like it, I won't.

Is that bad?  Does that make me hard hearted?  Or does it seem unfair that those retiring seem to begrudge me the same right? Both? Neither?

All said, I encourage young men to learn.  I have taught a few of them.  I made them for 56 years.  I still like making them, but I am not going to obligate myself to make them anymore.

So I tell them to try a kit gun.

But I will be 71 before I am 100% caught up and 71 is old enough to stop owing people guns.

[EC121]

Ian Pratt told me that he got worn out by the pressure of a backlog. So, now he keeps a list of customers.  Then when he finishes a rifle(at his own working pace), he calls down the list.  You have to take what he builds or he goes to the next name.  He told me that keeps the pressure off and no backlog to worry about.

[mikeyfirelock]

I would say to those who are on the fence about taking the plunge and building a gun …… do it.   I became friends with a guy in college who was a muzzleloader and had built his rifle.  I was already a shooter and this looked like fun, and I thought if he can do it, so can I.   I got the basic stuff and went to it…..in my dorm room.   
It was a good break from studying and I just did the prep work in the dorm.   Took it home when it started to look like something.   Made friends with a couple  of locals at home who shot Muzzleloaders, and were starting a club. ( Fort Tassinong Muzzleloaders).Been 50 years or so now.    Building rifles is a great hobby……I would recommend it.   It will build skills, enlarge your tool collection, enlarge your circle of friends ( your wife will find them to be a very interesting,if somewhat eccentric , bunch, but preferable to the ones hanging out in the local saloon) and deplete your wallet temporarily at times.   I have lost count of how many rifles I’ve built since that first one in 1972, but they’ve all been worth it.  Go for it.   I will add that I think a kit gun is a good place to start….especially if you do not have a shop or many tools. You’ll get experience, and more important, pride in doing it.
I have a standing offer to any one who’s interested in building…..you can come over and use my shop. My tools, and my expertise ( such as it is) to build a rifle.   No one has taken me up on it yet….offer still stands. I’m in NW Indiana)
( moderators….if post too long notify me please)
Mikeyfirelock

[Bob Roller]

My last two rifles were were a very simple 58 caliber full stock and the other was a 451 long range rifle but I use a stalking rifle stock semi finished.I did make a number of locks but most went out of the country.I am glad to see these high quality kits and the locks have been upgraded a lot.Gun making was never my strong interest and MAYBE I have made 12 total and one pistol.All but the last 2 were made from a plank,usually walnut.One was a fancy half stock using walnut that supposedly came from Russia bought from a man who restocked military bolt action rifles.It had silver butt plate and trigger guard and a checkered grip,bar in wood  and single set trigger.I heard it was in Lexington,Ky now.The stalking rifle stock was semi finished and I got it from Don Brown who revived the idea of a high end long range rifle.
Most of my contribution to muzzle loaders was locks and triggers until 2019 and decided to stop lock making and then made a few triggers and that was it.Lower back problems and working standing at a bench are not my ideas of fun so retiring was the only option left.

Bob Roller

[Bill in Md]

I have no issues with anyone taking the easy way to get into BP shooting, but I do have an issue with the idea that buying a gun in the white somehow makes one a builder or schooled in architecture.

[Waksupi]

Some of us will always prefer doing scratch builds. I did put together a Kibler, and put together is the only description of it. It's not building a rifle, you are assembling parts basically. I parted with that rifle, as I prefer shooting guns I built myself. No, I don't make the locks and barrels, but there is something much more personal about a gun you build from a plank, to fit yourself perfectly. One reason we may see new scratch builders not starting the hobby, is there are fewer old timers around to help them through the hard spots in the learning curve.

[mgbruch]

I hope we're not losing serious, long time builders to the kit world.  We did lose Mr. Kibler, himself, as I understand he hasn't been building for a while now.  His custom work is amazing!

The good kits are a certainly a boon to the sport, and were needed for quite some time.  You can end up with a very nice gun for a very reasonable price.  A price that fills that gap between what used to be the mainstream kits, and a custom gun. 

I build Southern guns from a blank, so at first I was intimidated by the Kibler kits.  Robots are making guns with inletting as good as my own... or almost.  But I have also found that there will always be a market for handmade flintlocks.  I have ancestors on both sides, who were early American farmers, settlers, and pioneers.  They used handmade flintlocks (probably smoothbores); so for me as a reenactor, a handmade arm is important, as it is to many in the sport.

There's a big difference between a kit gun, and an arm built from a blank, using as many handmade parts as possible, and using more traditional methods of building.  You can see the difference; and you can feel it when handling the gun. You have a truly one of a kind gun, wherein the gun, and all its' parts, reflect the design and execution of the craftsman.

People are where they are.  My older brother still uses the Thompson Center (not) Hawken that I sold to him 48 years ago.  He's taken several deer with it; and it's the only black powder gun he'll ever own.  Most people, I think, will be satisfied with a well assembled and finished kit gun.  Any gun, when used, becomes personal to the owner... even if it does look like everyone else's.  Many, many years ago, I assembled a CVA Mountain rifle (made in the USA).  It's the last percussion long arm I've owned... but it was a good shooter, and fun... and I often wish I had it back.

But there will always be those who recognize, and value, the intrinsic beauty of a well made custom gun.  And some of those will love it enough that the'll want to carry on the traditions of hand building.

Hundreds of measurements. Thousands of decisions.  Thousands of passes with the plane, rasp, and file. Hands performing tasks as the mind and eyes direct them to.  At every turn lies the chance for success or failure.  And when the result is a well designed and executed gun, it has a beauty that cannot be had from any kit gun.  Fore me one of the challenges is to come as close to perfection as my human-ness will allow.

I've gotta say, though... I get a kick out of people putting together the new kits, and calling it a "build".  It plays right to the ego, doesn't it.  What do they actually build?  Then again, there are those who would say I assemble guns, because I don't make my own barrels and locks. (I also by screws, bolts, and finishing supplies).  I had to replace my bandsaw this past week.  The whole thing came in three boxes.  I opened the boxes, and assembled it... so do I get to tell everyone that I "built" my bandsaw?

My two cents.

[Woodpecker]

As a first post, this is a good topic. Glad to be here.

I'm no stranger to building furniture and restoring small antique pieces so I consider myself an average woodworker though I have built and restored simple furniture using hand planes, scrapers, polymerized oil finishes and french polishes, etc. I've also spent years shooting black powder; albeit all caplocks.

I'm in the middle of assembling my first kit and it's a Kibler fowler and it's the reason I joined this forum. I made this decision because I'm not a metallurgist or a carver; nor did I want to invest in the tools required to do it for a first attempt. I also wanted  something better than the Traditions kits I see on the shelf. Be it not for reading of the well documented Kibler quality and simplicity for the price, I would not have spent the money on, or appreciated, a custom builder. Having a deeper appreciation for the art now, the prices of custom builds don't seem that high.

[rich pierce]

This is a recurring topic. Of course there are folks new to the discussion and folks whose views change over time.

2018
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=50274.0

[Dave B]

 I found that the taking of some chunk of wood and some metal bits and making something that shoots to be a cool thing to do. For me the building from scratch is half the fun of the process.  The part that comes with time is the joy of knowing that this is how they did it back then and it looks like it.  I have been impressed with the quality of the kits that are availble now and have built some from track as well as petonica when approched by those wanting something better than the TC  CVA croud  BC  "before Chambers".  I like the carving, engraving as well as the blacksmithing. I have helped ram up molds for making butt plates and making wood patterns for sand casting trigger guards. I know I am wierd and could care less.  It took me 3 yrs to finish my first scratch build rifle and I still have it. It shoots really well and has won me a place in the top 2 at several matches over the years  not that there were more than just two shooters.....  I dont think the new generation of Kits will change the fact that there will always be those that want their gun to be set apart from the croud and seek out the custom gun builder. Or should we say gun stocker.  We for the most part are stocking a gun if we are not making the barrel the lock the castings. I say the more we can pull into the community of the the Black Powder family the better. 

[JBJ]

David B's comments re "gunstocker" reminded me of a noted custom builder, John Bivins, who as I recall, referred to himself as a "gunstocker".  I guess it gets down to how you preceive yourself.

J.B.

[Jim Kibler]

I think Eric has said things pretty well.  Looking back 20 years or so to when I got into this stuff fairly heavy, it seems to me there are definitely fewer custom guns being built now.  The high quality kit market emerged in the last 10 years or so and constitutes a pretty large percentage of good quality (non mass production) longrifles being built.  Determining a cause can be a little tricky, though.  Did the kit's cause this decline or had the decline already started and the kits came along and filled a void?   To be honest, I'm not certain and I don't think anybody can be. 

As I've said before, I'm proud of what we've done as a company and what we've contributed to traditional blackpowder in general.  We have brought thousands of new people into this world.  Change never pleases everyone, but it's certainly inevitable.   

[rich pierce]

A large percentage of folks who build from blanks started out by building a kit gun. This was as true in the 1970s as today. For me it was a Sharon Trade Rifle kit in 1977. Next build in 1979 was a build from a blank. The kit suppliers and ease of assembly have changed over time, but the way it folks get into building long rifles hasn’t, in my view.

A good many experienced custom builders have assembled a number of high quality kits for customers before Jim Kibler launched his kits. I know many who have assembled and customized Chambers kits for customers and friends. Now it’s a different supplier coming out with some new offerings.

[Jim Kibler]

A large percentage of folks who build from blanks started out by building a kit gun. This was as true in the 1970s as today. For me it was a Sharon Trade Rifle kit in 1977. Next build in 1979 was a build from a blank. The kit suppliers and ease of assembly have changed over time, but the way it folks get into building long rifles hasn’t, in my view.

A good many experienced custom builders have assembled a number of high quality kits for customers before Jim Kibler launched his kits. I know many who have assembled and customized Chambers kits for customers and friends. Now it’s a different supplier coming out with some new offerings.

This may be so, but I'm not sure you've captured the magnitude of high quality kits being produced.  It's nice to think things haven't really changed, but this isn't accurate.  Without going into details, we produce at least 10X the number of kits that Chambers did 10 years ago. 

[rich pierce]

A large percentage of folks who build from blanks started out by building a kit gun. This was as true in the 1970s as today. For me it was a Sharon Trade Rifle kit in 1977. Next build in 1979 was a build from a blank. The kit suppliers and ease of assembly have changed over time, but the way it folks get into building long rifles hasn’t, in my view.

A good many experienced custom builders have assembled a number of high quality kits for customers before Jim Kibler launched his kits. I know many who have assembled and customized Chambers kits for customers and friends. Now it’s a different supplier coming out with some new offerings.

This may be so, but I'm not sure you've captured the magnitude of high quality kits being produced.  It's nice to think things haven't really changed, but this isn't accurate.  Without going into details, we produce at least 10X the number of kits that Chambers did 10 years ago.

Note to self.