Forearm left thick for scratch plane work?

[conquerordie]

Hello all

When making a scratch plane for forearm moulding; do you leave a little extra wood or remove it right down to final thickness and then remove more with the scratch plane? Gonna try this on a jaeger kit. Never done it before so any tips on construction of the scratch plane; or use of said plane on the stock would be very helpful. Ive seen some great original examples; and of course excellent examples on this site. My first endevour will be simple. Thanks for the help

GREG

[Mark Elliott]

I only rough out the upper forearm and use the scratch stock to finish the profile.   My scratch stock puts the entire profile on the forearm.   

[Jim Kibler]

When I use a scratch stock, it's just to relieve or shape the molding.  The forestock is shaped prior to using it.  Basically it just relieves the molding or hollows it etc.  A scratch stock isn't the most efficient removal tool, so I only use it where it's beneficial.  Much of the forestock can be finish shaped with other methods.  Also, if the forestock changes in height, it would become difficult for the entire shape to be produced.  Further even if the forestock is a consistent height, the profile actually changes with a swamped barrel.  Think of it this way, the line at the ramrod groove remains parallel to the bore, while the upper line which intersects the barrel changes.

Jim

[conquerordie]

Jim

What other methods can you recommend? I don't have a specific profile in mind. A simple hollow and maybe an incised line. Simple. Viener and a round file? If I can do this without making a scratch plane then I'm good with that  . Thanks again

[Mark Elliott]

Let me clarify my comment in light of Jim's.   It is true that you can't use a scratch stock to cut the top line of the forearm.   My scratch stock has the finished profile of the upper forearm from the bottom of the hollow next to the ramrod groove to the widest point of the forearm.   It wraps around that outer curve just a little.  The scratch stock is relieved so that it does not cut the bottom or top line of the forearm as there is a slight change in height.   However, since I use a double bead and a hollow,  my scratch stock must profile the lower 2/3 of the upper forearm.    

I shape the upper forearm by the normal means and to the generally finished profile leaving enough wood for the double beads.    I use the scratch stock to finish the forearm like I would use a scraper if there was no moulding.   I also use the scratch stock to put a hollow and a bead on the lower edge of my butt stock.   Again, the scratch stock cuts from the bottom of the hollow to just above the bead, relieved so that it does not cut into the buttstock significantly above the bead.   I consider the scratch stock a finishing tool used as any other scraper, and I finish almost all my lines and profiles with a scraper.   I may go back and touch up my beads or around them with my finishing scraper and/or a small three cornered file.   Actually,  I have a small three cornered file with the tip broken off and polished so that the end can also be used like a scraper.   It is useful for cleaning up around moulding and carving.

I am sorry my first answer wasn't as complete as it should have been.

[David Rase]

I also use the scratch stock to put a hollow and a bead on the lower edge of my butt stock.   Again, the scratch stock cuts from the bottom of the hollow to just above the bead, relieved so that it does not cut into the buttstock significantly above the bead.  

Mark,
So how do you  taper the buttstock molding (hollow and bead) using a scratch stock?  My buttstock moldings are wide at the butt and taper towards the wrist area.
David

[Mark Elliott]

David,

That is a good question.   It has been a while since I did one and I forget.   Looking at my pictures, it looks like it kept it pretty much parallel to the toe until I passed the grip rail spur then spiraled into the toe behind the triggers.    To the best of my recollection,  i free-handed it using the initial bead as a guide to deepen the cut.   I also suspect that I rotated the scratch stock guide against the toe.   I am sure the next time, I do one, my muscles will do the remembering for me.   

[conquerordie]

Thank you for clarifying your method Mark. I'm starting to get a good idea as to his it works and the considerations that must be taken into account to successfully moulder the forearm. Does anybody try to make the hollow with a round file?

[Jim Kibler]

Jim

What other methods can you recommend? I don't have a specific profile in mind. A simple hollow and maybe an incised line. Simple. Viener and a round file? If I can do this without making a scratch plane then I'm good with that  . Thanks again

If the desired molding isn't tapered in height, the scratch stock works well and seems to be most efficient.  Otherwise the moldings can just be carved.  Follow the same basic procedure as with any carving.  Outline with chisels or a parting tool, relieve and then hollow with gouges, add incised lines etc if necessary.  Files can be used to run along the molding to even things up a bit if desired.

[Acer Saccharum]

First, I shape the foreend. I mark the line where my moulding will start, and I rough cut this with a parting tool. Then I straighten it out with a file. I use a fishtail gouge across the grain to hollow out the moulding(if it's a hollow type). Then I smooth the hollow out lengthwise with a file, then scrape smooth. If there is any beading, I do it at this time.

My mouldings don't necessarily parallel the RR channel OR the top line of the stock. Everything tapers and flares a bit with the barrel shape. Of course, I mostly build guns with flared barrels. Using a straight barrel would have different design requirements.

Tom

[Mark Elliott]

Tom,

If you don't run your forearm moulding parallel to the ramrod groove,  what do you do; split the difference between the line of the top of the forearm and the ramrod groove?


I should say the I have only used a scratch stock on the variants I have made of the early Augusta/Rockbridge Co, VA  rifle documented in JHAT II where a scratch stock was used for that moulding as evidenced by tool marks.   All the other mouldings I have done (which have been very simple) were cut in as any other carving and straightened/cleaned up with a file.   

[whetrock]

Thank you for clarifying your method Mark. I'm starting to get a good idea as to his it works and the considerations that must be taken into account to successfully moulder the forearm. Does anybody try to make the hollow with a round file?

Greg,
I've done it with a round file. I first heated a tapered round file (actually a fine round bastard cut) and bent it, then quenched it in water. That gives you a way to get the handle/shank of the file out of the way. The groove you cut will be slightly larger than the widest section of the file. You may want to break off some of the point and grind down some of the teeth on the broken end, as well, so as to keep that point from scratching everything it touches.

The difficulties with doing it with hand tools such as files, rasps, and chisels, etc. lie in consistency and speed. BUT, that is not necessary a problem. It depends on what you are after. A careful study of tool marks on old guns show that old builders used various ways and means to accomplish the same tasks. And while some (most) builders apparently used scratch stocks, not all of them did.

Some contemporary builders often look at some old details of old rifles as mistakes, which they then want to correct or improve upon. That’s a matter of opinion and preference, and my comment is not intended as criticism. But it is a simple fact that if you really want your gun to look JUST LIKE an old one, then you will need to do the work JUST LIKE the old guy did it. Moldings done with a scratch stock will be consistent. Antique moldings that were done without a scratch stock will include some minor inconsistencies in thicknesses, etc. (which various ones of us will read either as “charming” or “undeveloped”, depending on our tastes).

[whetrock]

These two articles are in the same edition of the JHAT. I think it is still out of print, but there is always interlibrary loan.

Gussler, Wallace. 1987. Two Virginia Rifles as Documents of Traditions, Shop Tools, Processes, and Technology. Journal of Historical Armsmaking Technology. Volume II.  June. p 1-27

This article includes photos that show longitudinal tool marks indicating use of a scratch stock. (Just an outstanding article overall.)


Swanson, Russell L. 1987. Making and Using a Scratch-Stock for Forearm Moldings. Journal of Historical Armsmaking Technology. Volume II. June. p 85-90.

This article discusses how to build and use a scratch stock.

[Acer Saccharum]

But it is a simple fact that if you really want your gun to look JUST LIKE an old one, then you will need to do the work JUST LIKE the old guy did it.

I am of the opinion that the tools that did the job leave their 'fingerprint' or 'tell-tale' that they were used, and how they were used.

[conquerordie]

I think I want to try it with a file and chisels. It makes me think of different ways to use a tool. I believe a lot of gunsmiths had to do this. Besides gives me another reason to buy a gouge Ive been wanting . Thanks guys

[Mark Elliott]

The tools particularly leave evidence of their use before the industrial revolution when craftsmen were not as obsessive as we are today about removing such things.    Many contemporary builders will sand out every imperfection that they can see.   In the 18th and early 19th century, almost nothing that you couldn't see was finished and that which you could see had the occasional (I stress occasional, after all they were trying to do good work, just not perfect work) file, scraper, or chisel mark left behind.   Carving particularly,  was left as the chisel left it, not that they didn't try to make the cut as flawless as possible; and backgrounds were not generally scraped smooth.   Not seeing these things is one clue that the work is relatively modern.  

[bgf]

A simple hollow and maybe an incised line.

Scratch stock would work great. It is just a specialized scraper.  If you aren't sure about the incised line, leave it off the scratch stock and add it (or not) later. 

I've used a tapered file or two to make those lines.  Trace a line, then use a triangular file and/or edge of thin half round file to run along the line, slowly at first, then deeper as it starts to track.  You can actually make a form of relief molding this way also, esp. by angling the half-round file differently in the "groove" and using boths sides of the file; works really well for me on buttstock moldings.  I wonder if this isn't "authentic" as well, as matching file marks through the buttplates are commonly seen.  Also, many fore end molding lines (and some molding lines on buttstocks) seem to "fade out" near termination, which is exactly the effect I get if the file is tapered.  The advantage to me over using a v-tool for the incised lines is that the filed lines tend to be easy to get perfectly straight...  Anyway, just an idea I got by looking at old rifles and not knowing too much about what tools they had available.

[whetrock]

... Never done it before so any tips on construction of the scratch plane; or use of said plane on the stock would be very helpful. ...
GREG

By the way, Greg, did you still want tips on how to actually make a scratch stock?

There's quite a lot on the forum about making and using them. I did a search for you on “scratch stock”, and nine pages of hits came up. Of course those include hits on threads that weren't relevant, but many were. Here are helpful links from the first page.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=17867.0

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=16792.0
This second link recommends a video, which is really worth watching if you haven’t already. Here’s a direct link to the video:
http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=34075&utm_source=email&utm_medium=eletter&utm_content=20110613-nick-offerman&utm_campaign=fine-woodworking
(I think this video is especially helpful on how to make the blade. Some of the other links are more helpful about how to use it on a gunstock.)


regarding scratch stocks for lower butt moldings:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=18006.0

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=26920.0
has some overlap with one of the links above, but still useful

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=16714.0
includes links to helpful videos

[whetrock]

And there is a point in the Russel Swanson article that I referenced above that I thought was particularly noteworthy. That’s the fact that you need to file the contour in the blade somewhat elongated, so that it cuts the desired contour when leaning over. As he puts it in his fine article:

QUOTE:
The scratch-stock is intended to cut in either direction, so the cutting edges of the iron are formed by filing or grinding the edge so that it is 90 degrees to the face of the blade. The corners of the edge therefore do the work, and the iron is sharpened by stoning the faces of the blade rather than the edge, since stoning the latter would, in time, alter its profile. The scratch-stock is actually angled about 30 degrees in use, which means that the profile of the iron must be elongated somewhat in order to produce the desired profile on the gunstock. The same is true of a molding plane, which of course has an iron set at a fixed angle in the plane stock. [p 87]

It is important that firm and even pressure be applied to the vertical beam of the scratch-stock, so that it maintains [p89] consistent contact with the upper edges of the stock, or double lines and damaged beads may result. It is equally important to maintain the scratch-stock iron at a consistent angle to the stock throughout the job in order to insure that the profile of the forestock remains the same for the full length of the cut. If chatter occurs, it may be removed by reversing the direction of the cut, or smoothed away with a sharp file if necessary. [p90]
END QUOTE   italics added

[conquerordie]

Wow great information. Thank you for the links on creating the scratch stock and how to use. Guess I got some planning to do. Thanks again for everyone's help