Pyrodex and Real Powder Info

[rfd]

I can only get BP from small shops in PA.none of the big stores ever bother with it that I know of.

yer at least lucky to have an LGS selling bp.  i don't within 100 driving miles.  and if i did, such as a place in MA, they have no realistic bp selection for my bp needs.  this again drives us, forces us to go mail order.  it is what it is.  this is far cry from the 50's to 70's when i could get all the bp assortments i wanted within a few miles of home base.  yep, restrictions are getting worse and narrowing down.  this doesn't bode well for the future, be it near or far .....

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

So, since the advantages of BP are real, why don't BP companies lobby to get the commercial storage requirements loosened? 

Their sales would have to jump up if stores could have a pound of GOEX & Swiss on the shelf next to the others. 

Like it or not, the hazmat fees and the paucity in stores is prohibitive to many people.  Especially people who read sporting magazine ads.  Those people think they are happy substitute customers and are simply not willing to pay a $20 hazmat fee to TRY one pound of BP.  But they are more than willing to give it a try if they can buy a pound at normal prices. 

In Central Wisconsin the closest place I know of that sells BP over the counter is a 2 hour drive.  I stopped in years ago when I got my first flintlock and picked up a pound of 4F (because it was going to be some years before I needed to order another 25# case.) and paid $40!!!

I think if BP could improve its availability it would take a big market share.  Just because people with modern guns would give it a try.  And if they gave it a try they might discover its advantages.

[OldMtnMan]

  Few who shoot modern muzzleloaders can be convinced to use real powder. They call it dirty, smelly, fouls more, and has less power. Most can't be convinced. They want a modern gun with modern powder, bullets, and primers.

They aren't muzzleloaders. They just like the extra season to hunt.

[rfd]

.... I think if BP could improve its availability it would take a big market share.  ...

it's all about the money.  money is Everything to most businesses, particularly the manufacturers of black gunpowder.  the corporate bean counters dictate how the dollars are to be allocated.  i suspect that, in these leftist progressive liberal socialist democratic dayze here in the states, it's just too much of a gamble for the hope of too little ROI in the matter of promoting black gunpowder.  too many obstacles.  since the turn of the millennium it's become a fast food, hollyweird inspired gun culture.  the weekend hunters wanting to get in on the muzzy hunting season are not going to put down their ar15's for a sidelock muzzy, but instead a zip gun powered by white devil dust pellets.  traditional muzzleloaders are the minority of the minority.  we don't get no respect 'cause there ain't enuf of us left.  we'll not fade away or die out, we'll always be around until the next "last of the mohicans" flick and then the next short spike in trad muzzy sales will occur, along with that devil white dust sub gunpowder.  sickening, but true. 

[OldMtnMan]

What they don't know about us is how much fun we're having. Plus, when we make a kill it's much more rewarding.

All they want is more bone hanging on their walls.

[bob in the woods]

Perhaps a bit off topic, however I find myself laughing when my friend complains about the price of a pound of B.P. but then goes and pays $120.00 for a box of 20   30-378 's    

[Daryl]

I just paid $50.00 per pound for the modern stuff, in Dawson Creek.

[bob in the woods]

Something else just came to mind, "sparked" by a comment we often hear regarding B.P being hydroscopic. It really isn't to any great degree. The fouling is. That said, I can say from experience that Pyrodex [ unfired]  is hydroscopic . You need to seal the container well.  The same is true of some of the other substitute powders.  Not a good thing.

[Mad Monk]

Something else just came to mind, "sparked" by a comment we often hear regarding B.P being hydroscopic. It really isn't to any great degree. The fouling is. That said, I can say from experience that Pyrodex [ unfired]  is hydroscopic . You need to seal the container well.  The same is true of some of the other substitute powders.  Not a good thing.

BP subs and hygroscopic properties.
When you look at what constitutes a powder grain in most of these BP subs you are looking at powder grains that were not produced as the result of any compacting or densification process.  These grains are little more than loosely bonded large agglomerations of the pre-ground ingredients.  The pre-ground ingredients are blended together in the desired proportions and then the mix is slowly "wetted" while being mixed or agitated.  The dampened ingredient particles then simply stick together.  They generally lack mechanical strength as is seen in black powder grains that came out of compacted press densified "press cakes".  If you look at these bp sub grains under magnification you can see the large "pores" in the grains.  Almost "sponge like" in appearance.  Lots of room for moisture from the surrounding air.
When you look at patent disclosures for a lot of these subs they state that by not going into press densification and then "corning" their method of production is far safer than that used to produce dense compacted grains of black powder.

This thing about grains being little more than large agglomerations of the basic ingredients is one of the reasons most of the subs will not give as uniform a shot to shot consistency as black powder.  A properly made black powder is something of a gold standard for shot to shot consistency in the gun.  Go back and look at the claims once made by Ely where they claimed a shot to shot variation of no more than 5 fps with their higher priced bp cartridges.  With BP grains you want good density, a highly polished grain and a certain degree of uniform grain size in a particular loading.
It is a bit more complex than what I have gone through but some of the subs are open violations of all that was holy in bp mfg.  But then they are not catering to a technically astute customer base.

Bill K.

[OldMtnMan]

Bill,

Can I ask a couple of questions about real powders?

I always wondered how Swiss powder achieved the power it has over powders like Goex/ Are there any extra ingredients added?

The same question about Olde Eynsford since it's very close to the same price as Goex and made by the same company. Yet, it almost has the same power as Swiss. Anything suspicious about the ingredients?

[Mad Monk]

Bill,

Can I ask a couple of questions about real powders?

I always wondered how Swiss powder achieved the power it has over powders like Goex/ Are there any extra ingredients added?

The same question about Olde Eynsford since it's very close to the same price as Goex and made by the same company. Yet, it almost has the same power as Swiss. Anything suspicious about the ingredients?

To get into this.
Going back to the 1800s.  You had 3 types of black powder for use in small arms.  The slowest was musket powder.  Intended to be used in the muskets of fairly large caliber.  .58 and .69 caliber muskets.  Then you had a rifle type powder that was roughly 10% stronger/faster than musket powder.  Then you had Sporting type powder that was at least 10% faster than a rifle burn rate powder.  You can change the burn rate of a black powder by playing with the sulfur content.  You can change the burn rate of a black powder by how long you run the charcoal and sulfur mixture in the ball mill and then how long you run it in the wheel mill.  Finer grinding of ingredients gives faster burn rates, up to a point.  Type of charcoal and fixed carbon content of the charcoal will influence burn rates.    In other words there is a host of little things that will change how fast the powder burns chemically.  You can adjust the temperature at which the powder burns.  You can alter the volume of gases and the temperatures at which the gases are evolved from the burning grains of powder.  You can alter the ratio of carbon dioxide to carbon monoxide produced during powder combustion.

The Swiss powder is a true Sporting type black powder.  Nearly identical to the old C&H black powder made by C&H in Scotland until around 1970.

I have not taken the Olde Eynsford powder apart.  I have a strong gut feeling that it is another version of what GOEX used to produce as the Express powder.  I know how that was made and had a hand in it's development.  But now that GOEX is owned and operated by the Hodgdon Powder Company I avoid it.  I have discussed it in private but now avoid it publicly. 

Bill K.

[OldMtnMan]

Great info Bill. I had no idea they had so many things to play with when making powder.

Thanks a bunch.

[Mike from OK]

I have been told that Alder buckthorn makes the best charcoal for BP... And that is what Swiss uses exclusively.

Mike

[OldMtnMan]

Bill gave me a bunch of info on powders. It takes more than just using Alder wood for the charcoal. It's how you use it that counts. Nobody does it like Swiss does.

I'm back to using nothing but Swiss again. No other powder can come close it.

[Mad Monk]

I have been told that Alder buckthorn makes the best charcoal for BP... And that is what Swiss uses exclusively.

Mike

You can make black powder with almost any wood.  But only a few will make the best black powder.  A number of factors involved in this.  The structure of the wood is important when it comes to being able to grind the char down to nearly a micron in final particle size.  Then there is a point of cost versus results.  How much charcoal do you get per 100 pounds of wood charred.  Then the point about a moist burning powder.  Wood with a high lignin content is required to get a char with a good deal of creosote left in the char.  And the charring temperature cannot get too high or you simply blow the creosote out the charring cylinder vent.  The mineral content of he wood cannot be too high.
Even little things count big in this.  The wood is generally harvested in the Spring just as the sap begins to rise in the wood after Winter.  The fresh sap is loaded with sugar.  Which remains in the wood as it is dried.  When that sugar is charred in the wood it adds to the strength of the finished powder.  The Swiss charcoal is somewhat labor intensive in preparation so that adds to the cost.

Bill K.

[rfcbuf]

Have been using Pyrodex combined with black powder  in 50 cal. flint rifle with great ignition performance. Target load of 15 grains black powder (3 f) down the bore followed by 40 to 50 grains Pyrodex 3f equivalent ignites with no delay. Priming is 3f black powder. Have noticed that this hybrid powder mixing is more difficult to clean. Also leaves behind some barrel rusting. Black powder not available in my area thus necessitating the hybrid load. Has Pyrodex (a Hodgdon company) ever responded publicly to this rusting problem? Seems like they should as a responsible supplier to the muzzle loading community.

[Mad Monk]

Have been using Pyrodex combined with black powder  in 50 cal. flint rifle with great ignition performance. Target load of 15 grains black powder (3 f) down the bore followed by 40 to 50 grains Pyrodex 3f equivalent ignites with no delay. Priming is 3f black powder. Have noticed that this hybrid powder mixing is more difficult to clean. Also leaves behind some barrel rusting. Black powder not available in my area thus necessitating the hybrid load. Has Pyrodex (a Hodgdon company) ever responded publicly to this rusting problem? Seems like they should as a responsible supplier to the muzzle loading community.

I won't touch this one with a 10 ft wiping stick !!!!!!!!!!

[rfcbuf]

why not?

[WadePatton]

why not?

...  But now that GOEX is owned and operated by the Hodgdon Powder Company I avoid it.  I have discussed it in private but now avoid it publicly. 

Bill K.

Far be it from me to know exactly Bill's reasons, but this comment a couple of posts up tells me enough.

Thanks Bill. That's all the push I needed to change to Swiss (that H owns G now). The bigger the companies get the less options we have.  Diversify your spending yo.

By the way rfcbuf, where is "your area"? There have been strong implications in this thread that no one [here]  lives beyond the reach of mail-order. Do you live where you cannot mail-order powder, and have no Bass Pro or other big store- those that stock BP, but tells no one of it?

mods/OP:
It would be GREAT if we could now modify the title of the thread with such good info hidden under the "p-word".

--make title searches great again--

[OldMtnMan]

I can change the title Wade. What would you like?

[WadePatton]

I can change the title Wade. What would you like?

Oh I dunno, It's your thread, and I only looked at it because it wasn't going away. I knew my opinion of the P and didn't think there was more I needed to know about it.  This thread is much deeper than that and the more truths we understand the more debunking we can do if given an opportunity. So it's now a bit of a "must read". 

Of course I steer clear of nearly anything that says I "must"... just a rebel i reckon 

something like:
Pyrodex?  and gun powders chemistry

[OldMtnMan]

How about now?

[WadePatton]

lookin good! 

[Mad Monk]

why not?

...  But now that GOEX is owned and operated by the Hodgdon Powder Company I avoid it.  I have discussed it in private but now avoid it publicly. 

Bill K.

I am very lucky.  I lkive about 15 miles from Dixons and Cabellas is just a short hop North on Route 61 here in Berks County PA.



Far be it from me to know exactly Bill's reasons, but this comment a couple of posts up tells me enough.

Thanks Bill. That's all the push I needed to change to Swiss (that H owns G now). The bigger the companies get the less options we have.  Diversify your spending yo.

By the way rfcbuf, where is "your area"? There has been strong implications in this thread that no one lives beyond the reach of mail-order. Do you live where you cannot mail-order powder, and have no Bass Pro or other big store- those that stock BP, but tells no one of it?

mods/OP:
It would be GREAT if we could now modify the title of the thread with such good info hidden under the "p-word".

--make title searches great again--

[OldMtnMan]

We were trying to decide if Goex charcoal is made from old railroad ties or old pallets.