Author Topic: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun  (Read 12323 times)

Offline bama

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Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« on: August 29, 2010, 08:18:43 PM »
From Whisker's study of southern makers... Admin.

Jacob Young. frontiersman, farmer, and gunsmith. Jacob was a son of William Young of North Carolina. Jacob and his bride Mary Boren, moved into what is now Smith County Tennessee near the present town of Springfield.

Youngs were part of the post revolutionary war migration to the Southwest Indian Territory through the Cumberland Gap. This was before the state of Tennessee existed, and the entire area was considered to be a part of North Carolina. At the conclusion of the Revolutionary War, it became Washington County Virginia.

Father of William Young, a gunsmith. The Sumner County Tennessee tax list of 25 Aug 1789 lists a John Young with 868 acres of land and William Young with 640 acres of land.

Sept 1, 2010
=====================================================


It has been brought to my attention that this rifle may be a retsock and after taking a closer look the lock is a conversion and has been drilled for a front lock bolt. I did not include this picture in the first batch but here is a side plate view.

So this may well be a restocked gun with the barrel and triggers and lock being from an earlier gun. All these parts are signed. With that said this rifle still has a lot of similarities to the cased guns. This is a step toe stock as are the other guns and I think the treatment of the stock at the entry pipe has some resemblance to the other young guns.














I think that this is an earlier rifle than the more ornate rifles that were displayed in the case. The barrel on this rifle is long and slender and very similar to my Ridgill rifle by Thomas Simpson. The thinking is that Jacob Young may have been an apprentice to Thomas Simpson. So I think because the barrel is of much slimmer porportions than the rifles rifles shown in the case this rifle may be earlier. Reguardless Jacob Young was a very good builder.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 02:28:05 PM by nord »
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Offline G-Man

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2010, 02:29:38 PM »
Jim - you are right in that it is hard to date these guns. Just my opinion, but I had the pleasure of examining the iron mounted gun pretty closely last year and did not get any sense that the it is a restock, unless it was restocked by Jacob.  There is just too much there in the stock architecture and moldings that feels like his work.  

I do think Jacob's work was very innovative and his styles were progressive for his era.  I feel the iron mounted gun is later than the Whitley rifle and probably later than the Woodfork as well.  I have not had a chance to handle the new rifle so don't have a really good feel for timeframe on that one - looks maybe 1820s or 30s to me (I could be wrong - that is just a wild guess), which is where I would guess the iron mounted gun to fall as well.  Sliding wood boxes were not unusual on some southern (specifically North Carolina) rifles up through the late flint era.  I feel that we are lucky in that the 4 rifles we are able to examine reprsent a pretty good span of his working career, maybe almost 30 years.

Jacob was born in 1773 so probably was making rifles by the 1790s - since the Mansker-Simpson rifle is dated 1791, it seems Jacob might have either apprenticed with Simpson or they learned from the same master, whoever he is.  The trail gets hazy when you try to step back to that next generation.

Guy
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 03:35:58 PM by Guy Montfort »

Offline jcmcclure

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2010, 08:41:48 PM »
The iron mounted gun certainly puts a new thought on things when it comes Jacob Young and his style of building.

 I had the chance to examine this gun last year at the CLA and at first glance I thought it was a restock too, but now I have abandoned that thought. And by chance it was a restock, the restocking was done by Young. Some of the things you mention made me think about a restock as well...the lock bolt, and that fact the the trigger plate has a countersink for a wood screw and then there was never a wood screw that was place in that location. The gun as we see it was converted to caplock while in that stock...I am almost certain because of the double pins in the stock. It looks like at least 1.5 (little more little less) was take off of the barrel and then repined into the stock. That would be my guess concerning the conversion of the gun.

The iron mounted gun also has a signed trigger pate in stamped letters. To me I would think this wold be a correlation to say the gun maybe close to the period of the Woodfork, which has a stamped lock but barrel signed in scripted, just like the iron gun. There is no signed script on the newest rifle at all...both the name on lock and barrel were done with a stamped letters and the Whitley rifle probably had a lock with stamped letters, but everthing else is signed in script. It is very interesting to me that the trigger plate is signed on the iron mounted gun and is not on any of the other three, more exquisite rifles.

One thing that I will say about the time frame of this gun is that I would put it closer to the period of Woodfork and Whitley...and I lean more to the period between Whitley and the building of the Woodfork rifle. The comb of the iron mounted gun is much more similar the the Whitley rifle than the comb of the even the Woodfork or newest discovered gun. It seems very clear that as Young progressed the achetexture of comb changes noticeably. You can look at the pics and tell the difference in the three guns...at least I can see a difference. The iron mounted gun has architecture and other features that says earlier than the newest rifle, but a little later than Whitley. I really wish that the Whitley rifle had the original lock because I would like to compare the stamped signature (that I am sure it would have had) to the stamped signatures on the other guns. It would also be nice to seen the hammer/cock of the original Whitley lock and compare it to the original hammer/cock of the iron mounted gun...wonder if they were double throats like the Woodfork and newest rifle?

This is nothing more than my opinions and thoughts concerning all of the Jacob Young guns. I am by no means an authority...I am only a Historic Site Manager for KY Parks Dept and a student of the longrifle, so feel free to say I am way off or to pick apart my thoughts...I would be open to what anyone has else thinks because someone else may have seen or thought of something I have not.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 08:45:26 PM by jcmcclure »

Offline Clowdis

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2010, 09:10:46 PM »
Kind of curious, looks like there is a center punch location for the front lock bolt but the hole was never drilled.

Offline bgf

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2010, 10:25:25 PM »
Not that it counts for much, but I would agree with jcmcclure's observation that the overall architecture of this iron-mounted rifle shares much more with the Whitley than the other two rifles.  For example, not only the entire comb, as already mentioned, but the butt-plate and particularly the comb of it, as it is set into the wood of the comb and narrows toward the front, sloping to the rear.  Also, the triggerguard "spike" is much more reminiscent of the Whitley than the doubled curls on the Woodfork and the new rifle.    Additionally, for me, it is easier to accept a wooden patchbox on a rifle from the 1790's or early 1800's than on one from the 1820's or 30's.    The magnitude of the step, which is even greater than on the Whitley rifle, also argues for earlier rather than later.  One difference from all the others is the shape on the TG bow, which on the other rifles is a chevron, but here an oval.  

One complication is that there may be a different set of specifications for the same maker building in walnut and iron versus brass and maple or even iron and maple.  Walnut and iron are seemingly the least costly option and will have the simplest shaping.  That may explain, for me at least, the shape and position of the cheekpiece, which is totally different from any of the others, as well as the simple entry pipe and possibly the wooden patchbox.  I think the thinner barrel, especially, is a product of economics and purpose.  Perhaps rifles like this one were intended for later settlers (in peaceful times) or simply poorer ones, perhaps even older children or wives.  Whitley and Woodfork were wealthy men, as I would assume the original owner of the newly uncovered brass rifle was, but those types of rifles were not the entirety of the business.

Just my two bits (or less).
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 10:31:50 PM by bgf »

Offline G-Man

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2010, 09:32:44 PM »
(One note - the sliding wooden patchbox lid on the iron mounted gun is a recent replacement but its outline matches the outline imprint on the buttstock perfectly.  The original was missing when the rifle was found).

It really is hard to tell on the age.  Those are all valid considerations.  I do believe the Whitley to be the earliest, but beyond that, I guess any of the other 3 could fall one before or after the other in any order.  Woodfork was a lot younger than Whitley, but served in the War of 1812 era Indian Wars as did Whitley (Woodfork was a militia officer in the Creek Wars around 1815).  

One of the challenging things with Jacob Young is his locks - the Whitley rifle's original lock being gone, and the Woodfork lock looking like Jacob possibly made it himself (and an exquisite lock at that) - so that makes use of the locks difficult with regard to dating.  Of the group, the lock on the newly discovered rifle looks to be the latest to me, but I am no expert on locks.

We do have to be careful with assuming too much about a linear evolution of subtle characteristics on these guns, as opposed to it being just what the maker felt like doing, or perhaps a customer preference, on that particular gun.  Things liked stepped wrists and sliding wood patchboxes were as much out of the mainstream vogue in most regions in 1810 as they were in the 1820s, although certain makers kept using them.  Just my thoughts, but I don't feel that the amount of step on the wrist necessarily indicates earlier vs. later.  Whether it does in Jacob Young's case or not , I do not know, but some of the Southwest Virginia stepped wrist guns (Honakers and others) of the 1830s or maybe even 40s have pretty severe steps - even on some built originally as percussion.   Conversely, a molding in the shape of what looks to be the beginnings of what would become the double recurve on the triggerguard spike on Young's guns, and Lexington rifles of the early 1800s, is there on the Thomas Simpson Mansker rifle, which is dated and accepted as being from 1791, probably pre-dating the Whitley rifle by decade or more.

I really enjoy seeing everyone's thoughts and discussions on these great rifles as they have long been some of my favorites.   Jim - thanks so much for posting the photos and for sharing the 2nd Simpson rifle with us.  JC and BGF - thanks for your insightful thoughts - this is what I love most about this board.


Best regards,

Guy
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 11:10:08 PM by Guy Montfort »

Offline jcmcclure

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2010, 11:42:33 PM »
Guy,

We all have got opinions and so far there is not one of us who has the same exact thoughts about these rifle...and like u I enjoy the good conversation.

Be sure to bring those girls by soon for a tour of the house  :)

Casey

Offline bgf

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2010, 11:56:40 PM »
Guy,
The Woodfork rifle is inscribed for "Wm. Waid Woodfork", so I assume that it belonged to the son of William Woodfork and his first wife Sarah Wade: Gen. William Wade Woodfork (II), b. 1802.  The name is spelled variously Woodfolk, Woodfork, Woolfolk, etc.  The Major would be an better choice, but I assume the "Waid" in the inscription eliminated that option.  I also believe the "second" (II) in the name as usually listed-- although intended to disambiguate the Williams -- is somewhat confusing, as there is no William _Wade_ Woodfork I.  Either man was richer than Croesus, but it affects the dating of the rifle to some extent, at least in my opinion.  Maybe you or someone else can correct me if I've got it wrong.

My point on the step is only that there seems to be a progression to a more subtle step in the Woodfork and "new" rifle when compared to the Whitley, which is earlier. I agree that this type of things is not at all reliable, also:).

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2010, 12:06:12 AM »
The iron gun on this page is.......... really........... One of Hershel's early guns based on Young's work.........right???


 ;) ;)........ ::)
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Offline jcmcclure

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2010, 04:33:14 AM »
The iron gun on this page is.......... really........... One of Hershel's early guns based on Young's work.........right???


 ;) ;)........ ::)

I think u got a good point there!!!!!   :D

Offline G-Man

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2010, 02:32:16 PM »
Thanks Burton - I had assumed that William Wade was the same one who served in the Creek Wars - but since it appears to be the son, that clears things up a bit.

I guess he could have been a very lucky kid who got a great Christmas present one year....   ;)

Tim - it is funny - the finials on the guard on the iron gun are very similar to some of Hershel's guns he was building in the 1980s.  But this gun just turned up about 2 years ago. 


Guy

Offline bgf

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2010, 03:03:32 PM »
A lucky kid indeed!  My son would go into fits if that was under the tree.  He really liked the lock on the new rifle when I showed him the pictures.

Offline bgf

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2010, 11:34:15 AM »
Quote
Jacob Young. frontiersman, farmer, and gunsmith. Jacob was a son of William Young of North Carolina. Jacob and his bride Mary Boren, moved into what is now Smith County Tennessee near the present town of Springfield.

Youngs were part of the post revolutionary war migration to the Southwest Indian Territory through the Cumberland Gap. This was before the state of Tennessee existed, and the entire area was considered to be a part of North Carolina. At the conclusion of the Revolutionary War, it became Washington County Virginia.

Father of William Young, a gunsmith. The Sumner County Tennessee tax list of 25 Aug 1789 lists a John Young with 868 acres of land and William Young with 640 acres of land.

I would suggest checking these facts carefully.  Springfield TN is in modern day Robertson County, TN, which is a good distance from modern day Smith County.  Prior to the conclusion of the survey of the line between VA and NC, part of East Tennessee was included in Washington Co. (as well as other counties earlier), VA., due to a confusion about where the line lay, but Tennessee did not become Washington Co., VA, at the end of the Revolutionary war, as it had already been found to belong to NC as a result of the survey.  There is no need to travel through the Cumberland Gap to get from Virginia (or North Carolina for that matter) to what is now Tennessee.

Those are the major errors I suspect; there are several more statements which due to their nature as conjecture may or may not be true, although I suspect they also are not. 

Offline YoungGuy

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Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2023, 07:10:41 PM »
I was wondering if anyone knows the history of how, when and where the Young's Iron Mountain Gun reappeared? Legend has it,,,,,,,,, it was purchased from a pawn shop?  Any inputs or details would be appreciated.
Such a Marvelous gun!

Offline Curt Lyles

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2023, 07:29:03 PM »
Hey where's all the pictures at why don't they show up

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2023, 08:23:32 PM »
Hey where's all the pictures at why don't they show up
Because it's a 13 year old thread. Notice most all the guys that posted don't even participate anymore?
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Offline JTR

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2023, 08:31:58 PM »
Maybe lost in the Photo Bucket mess?
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Offline Elnathan

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2023, 08:34:18 PM »
Lost, yet not gone...Hopefully the OP won't mind me re-posting them.










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Offline JTR

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2023, 08:39:28 PM »
Way to go!!!
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Offline Avlrc

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2023, 05:06:41 AM »
One heckuva rifle. Thanks for digging em up.

Offline B.Barker

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2023, 05:46:03 AM »
Frank House owned it the last I knew. He reconverted it to flint and made a new patch box lid and maybe a little more. It's a great rifle and the way the trigger guard is made is one of the neatest parts of the rifle.

Offline Avlrc

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2023, 06:04:57 PM »
This is a 13-year-old thread, but it never gets old.

Offline bama

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2023, 06:18:40 PM »
Yes, nice to see this rifle again. Frank did a great job on the restoration and as far as I know is the currant owner of the rifle. Maybe one day we will get some pictures of it in its restored condition. It's a great little rifle.
Jim Parker

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Offline Stoner creek

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2023, 06:28:34 PM »
I’d say that either Frank or Mel Hankla would own it right now.
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Offline Sequatchie Rifle

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Re: Jacob Young Iron Mounted gun
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2023, 09:24:32 PM »
Frank had it last I knew. He displayed it at the Lake Cumberland shows a few years ago.
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