What Stops the Hammer (Cock) Movement when Firing a FL?

[Rich Jakowski]

In assembling a set of 1803 HF lock castings I got to wondering where the hammer (cock) is supposed to come to rest after striking the frizzen. Is it between the rear of the tumbler and the bridle? Or, is it where the flat portion on the inner side of the hammer meets the bolster on the top of the lock plate?

Does this vary on different lock designs and which is the most common?

Seems like a lot of stress would occur in either place over time if the parts involved were not properly hardened.

[Lucky R A]

    Idealy both of these surfaces should come into contact at the same time, each sharing a portion of the stress.   You find a lot of old antique locks with the top of the bolster and the hammer stop distorted by the hammer taking all the load.   

[Acer Saccharum]

Also, the flint striking the frizzen should really absorb most of the shock and load. Many kids get hold of a flinter, and break the cock off by firing without a flint in place, or worse, with the frizzen open.

Lucky has  it right. The cock shoulder on the plate and the tumbler on the bridle should both contact at the same time.

[B Shipman]

Bullcrap. Nothing is that fine tuned. The bulk of the hammer and the lockplate are far stronger than any internal part. What you really want is that the hammer, after it's force being well dissipated, hits inboard of the edge of the lockplate. Simply file your hammer stop so you don't batter the edge of the lockplate but inboard of the edge. Simple. Perfect. Easy. Things fail here because many builders, now and then, didn't even bother with the simple, let alone trying to have all parts hit at the same time exactly. Acer,  I'm on my second manhattan, the Eagles just lost to the lowly Bears, and I'm opinionated. But I'm right, at least in this case.

[California Kid]

[ I'm on my second manhattan, the Eagles just lost to the lowly Bears, and I'm opinionated. But I'm right, at least in this case.
[/quote]

Disappointed in the Eagles, but at least the Chargers won, which I don't really care about.

[Lucky R A]

After two Manhattens, opinions are better, women are prettier and by God you can sing no matter what everyone else tells you.   Cheers Bill!   Now I know how you get those wonderful flowing lines in your carving.  Got a good recipe for those Manhattans?   

[Dphariss]

Bullcrap. Nothing is that fine tuned. The bulk of the hammer and the lockplate are far stronger than any internal part. What you really want is that the hammer, after it's force being well dissipated, hits inboard of the edge of the lockplate. Simply file your hammer stop so you don't batter the edge of the lockplate but inboard of the edge. Simple. Perfect. Easy. Things fail here because many builders, now and then, didn't even bother with the simple, let alone trying to have all parts hit at the same time exactly. Acer,  I'm on my second manhattan, the Eagles just lost to the lowly Bears, and I'm opinionated. But I'm right, at least in this case.

What about the ones that have the stop on the fence?
Many late English locks, those with "French" cocks especially, are built this way.
I set the Manton lock I assembled to stop on the fence and at the bridle. This way I am less likely to batter a groove in the fence.

Dan

[B Shipman]

Dan, I agree with these late locks. But the locks we almost always use, like a Siler, are a different story. Clearly the hammer hitting the plate inboard is better than pounding the internals even a little bit. After many years there's nothing but a little dent on the top of the plate.

Ron, 3 parts Canadian whiskey, 1 part M&R Vermouth. On the rocks. Slightest dash of cherry juice. Pour into shaker. Shake 30 seconds. Shaking makes a big difference. Pour back in glass.
Only girls and Southerners use bourban.

[flintriflesmith]

Only girls and Southerners use Bourbon.

Bill,
Glad to here that about us Southerners. Down here we hear from childhood that only Northerners ruin perfectly good bourbon by adding ... well, anything but ice!
Gary

[G-Man]

Weren't some of the Harpers Ferry locks made as Dan described  - with no ledge on the back of the cock?

An old Irish gentleman once told me that "the only thing you drink with good whiskey is more of it ..."     

Best regards

Guy

[smshea]

Wait just a minute Bill!   Who you callin a girl or a southerner? Days ending in 'Y' end in Makers Mark her in Mt. Gretna. I do agree about the locks.

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

I love really good questions; and this is one of the best. I will answer according to my hands-on research of original locks; and wait in just a minute to explain todays modern made locks. First, keep in mind that flintlocks were in an ever-evolving state of improvement; and based on the question of time period gets the appropriate fix. The first flintlocks (poor suckers) were technological experiments and most early Dutch and Liege locks didn't even have a bridle over the tumbler. (Period in 1650 to 1685 or so.) When they first began using a bridle, I believe the process was still a learning process because the early original locks I own today show only a hammer ledge on the back of the hammer itself and no bridle stop. Somewhere in the very early 1700's lockmakers began using a variety of methods to control and spread the force of the hammer. Original drawings in a military museum in Europe show the intent that the hammer should engage the plate a fraction prior to the tumbler stop coming to the bridle stop. This, I believe since it makes sense, means the plate being the larger bearing surface absorbs first the settling of the hammer, and the bridle stop secondary. Once the bridle begins to accept the strike of the hammers force is the beginning of the end of the locks internals. Notice that later English locks ultimately began using two upper screws in the bridle, as well as "stand-offs" on the bridle to keep the tumbler in perfect 90 degree rotation. Cool stuff. I bought a matched left and right pair of John Manton flintlocks and these are the most perfect pieces of work I have had. Todays locks recieve (for the most part) no additional "tweeks" to the masters to make them better. Too costly to remake the master and/or the molds for the ultimate improvements. So, we get what we get. Did you know that many originals don't have any "cut" in the panel where the hammer comes to rest? Thats because many of the original masters "faded" the panel top inward so that the hammer stop cleared the wood. When I studied original locks on original rifles and pistols, I found that this ledge never exceeded the width of the decorative bevel. So when you inlet any lock with any type of bevel on its edge, it inlets to the base of this bevel, and leaves enough available edge for the hammer to sit on!
Susie

[B Shipman]

I knew I'd get a response with the whiskey thing. In central PA, especially in the coal regions, few people drink Bourbon. I was a bartender in school for a few years.Wise men, like myself, drink Windsor in their Manhattans cause it's good and not expensive. VO is a treat. Crown Royal is on the rocks or straight. Crown Royal in a Manhattan is disrespectfull. It's regional and interesting what people , in general, drink.

Susanne is dead on.

[Mike R]

I knew I'd get a response with the whiskey thing. In central PA, especially in the coal regions, few people drink Bourbon. I was a bartender in school for a few years.Wise men, like myself, drink Windsor in their Manhattans cause it's good and not expensive. VO is a treat. Crown Royal is on the rocks or straight. Crown Royal in a Manhattan is disrespectfull. It's regional and interesting what people , in general, drink.

Susanne is dead on.

I bow to the experts on locks, but on WHISKEY(!) I do have educated opinions! Its all good.   I was raised mainly in PA by southern born parents and now live back in the south.  My Dad drank Manhattans when he could [being an FBI Agent in Hoovers old days he could never have more than one drink when 'off duty' because he was always getting called back on duty].  In the anthracite coal regions of PA where I grew up, folks were beer drinkers [and we had great local breweries like Mt Carbon Bavarian, no longer with the living].  But when they drank whiskey it was based largely on nationality--the south in those days was pretty much scots-irish or african-american, but PA was a conglomerate of nations--the Irish drank Rye, the English & Scots drank Scotch, etc.  Alot of folks drank Canadian whiskey.  But you Yankees are missing out on some great mellow corn whiskey made in Tenn and Kentucky!  Someone mentioned Makers Mark--a true Bourbon--great stuff!   Down here we mainly drink it straight or maybe with a cube of ice in the summer. When we blend whiskey into a highball or coctail, THEN we use that poor Yankee whiskey! 

[TPH]

Susanne, excellent post! About the whiskey? I'm no fun, never cared for the stuff.

[Rich Jakowski]

Not sure how the subject of whiskey got bundled into this thread, but I sure appreciate Suzanne's detailed and scholarly  response to my query. Now that I think about it, it does seem like the force of the tumbler hitting the bridle would tear things up pretty quick.

Hey Suzanne, I'd sure love to see some photos of those John Manton locks if you can put them up.

Don't get me wrong guys, I like my booze too, though more of a gin man myself - Beefeater, dry vermouth and a couple of nice fat sour onions (aka: a gimlet. BTW:  isnt' that also the name of the tool that looks something like an ice pick and is used to clear the touch hole when fireing a cannon?)

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

Thanks for all that appreciation stuff! Since I'm new here to the forum, its kind of cool to be noticed! My monthly weekend school here covers all this kind of stuff in a hands-on "real" school! As soon as someone teaches me how to upload photos I'll be glad to share pics on my Mantons. My ultimate goal is to reproduce them (and some others). Anything I can help with, just let me know!
Susie

[B Shipman]

Rich, just fun getting something going.

[jerrywh]

Here's a new one for you. On some English and French locks the throat of the hammer came to rest on the pan fence. Manton had some like that and so did boutet.

[flintriflesmith]

Here's a new one for you. On some English and French locks the throat of the hammer came to rest on the pan fence. Manton had some like that and so did boutet.

Dan mentioned this in reply #6

[smshea]

I would love to see a picture of one of these French or English locks up close if anyone has one. I was not aware that Manton did this (on the long list of things im not aware of) and im very interested in seeing one.

On whiskey.....My family all still lives up in the coal reigons here in pa.Yatesville,Girardville,Mahanoy City. My Polish relatives are all Seagrams7 drinkers or what ever beer you put in front of them. The Irish ( Obrians, Carrols, McCoys and Sheas) are all Bourban drinkers and none too fussy about their beer either. I too like Gin (ALOT) but like girls and white shoes....only between Memorial Day and Labor Day.   

[jerrywh]

Sorry Dan.
  I didn't see that in your post.

[Dphariss]

I would love to see a picture of one of these French or English locks up close if anyone has one. I was not aware that Manton did this (on the long list of things im not aware of) and im very interested in seeing one.

On whiskey.....My family all still lives up in the coal reigons here in pa.Yatesville,Girardville,Mahanoy City. My Polish relatives are all Seagrams7 drinkers or what ever beer you put in front of them. The Irish ( Obrians, Carrols, McCoys and Sheas) are all Bourban drinkers and none too fussy about their beer either. I too like Gin (ALOT) but like girls and white shoes....only between Memorial Day and Labor Day.   

This is the lock built from TRS castings that is on my 16 bore.
you can see the place designed into the cock to strike the fence in one photo.
This rifle has fired about 400- 500 rounds when the pic was taken. It stops on the fence and on the bridle.
Yes I know the vent is not in the center of the pan. Do do occurs. I built the breech complete then installed the barrel and lock in the stock.
The rifle needs to be finished but its my hunting rifle. Should have blued the barrel this summer when I did a couple of others. It was too white and shiny last year so I smeared some plumb brown on it.

Dan

[smshea]

Thats beautiful!!!! Thank you for posting!

[B Shipman]

Remember that this is not a lock that is available to the average builder, but the highpoint of sofistication of the flintlock period. AGAIN, for the locks we generally use, hit the plate inboard of the edge first. The internal stop soon thereafter.
Scott, everyone has their individual tastes. But as a bartender for a number of years in Shamokin which is the same as where you're from,, rye whiskey like Seagrams or Canadian ,which is just good rye whiskey, outperforms boubon , corn, 30 to one and light liquors 3 to 1. Then again you have the Shipman dry martini. Many tips. Shake your gin on ice. Place dry Vermouth in the cocktail glass, swirl, and throw it in the sink. It merely "wets" the glass. Then pore in the cold gin. Add olive.  The greater the display of throwing out the vermouth, the greater the tip.