Advice on a noob mistake

[wetzel]

Okay, I was really excited as I got a plank of wood with a .45 caliber rice barrel inlet into it.  I started out by seating the breech plug then I looked at the tang as it was seated properly on the slant breech breech.  It was really crooked, in fact it seemed absurdly crooked (it's an L&R slant breech), but I didn't think there was much I could do about it and I thought I could just file to make it match up to the barrel better.  I'm sure many of you are already seeing my problem.  Anyway I inlet the tang and still thought things were great until I inlet the lock and finally saw outside my tunnel vision.  I have let a few days go by to think on it and even though I know it looks bad, what do you guys think?  Would it look okay in the end considering cast off?  If not, how could I fill it in to start over, and if I did that how do I bend that tang?  Do I just put it in a vise and bang on it?



 
I would appreciate any advice.

[greybeard]

WOW!!!   Good luck!!. Not  much help from here I'm afraid.  I can,t figure out how the barrel is on such a slant on the stock blank
Bob

[wetzel]

Bob, I think that is somewhat of an optical illusion.  I trimmed wood off the lock side only so far, it might be slightly crooked in the stock blank but not as bad as it appears.

[Scott Semmel]

I don't know if it is the photo or if that tang is very asymetrical. The whole thing appears to be off to the lock side. If it is, it will need more than bending, If it is as it appears that tang needs a new tang.
If it is just the photo bending them cold isn't hard but you already drilled and counter sunk' all the bending is gonna want to happen where the hole is.
I don't know what you can do short of inleting new wood where the current inlet is and starting over with a new tang.
Was the tang glued or soldered to the barrel during inletting?

[wetzel]

The tang was glued to the barrel during inletting.  That makes sense about the bends only happening where the holes are:(  Is L&R stuff just junky?  I have used a few things from them and have yet to be impressed.  I shouldn't have let it slip past but didn't quite see the problem until it was to late.  Is that how you fix it, cut a piece of wood about the profile of the tang and inlet it into the wood?  Maybe I should buy a new tang, intlet wood into the hole and start over.  Though with the lock already inlet I will have to be very careful.

[Scott Semmel]

It may be a tad less difficult if you square off your current inlet to inlet the new wood, getting a good fit on sides and bottom may be easier with straight lines.
I have done a couple of L&R slant breaches and my only difficulties were caused by me.

[JDK]

Couldn't the holes in this tang be welded up instead of buying a new one?  TOW sells this set for about $50.....welding would be much, much cheaper.  J.D.K.

[Scott Semmel]

The holes could be welded and then bent, if crooked is the problem, but that tang looks lopsided, the radius on the lock side appears much shallower than the off side and the whole length seems proud lockside. I would run a string on a dowel from the muzzle to get a center line to fully understand what the issue is, my eyes play nasty tricks on me when I don't have a straight line, guess thats why I am a mechanic not an artist when it comes to building these things.

[Don Getz]

One of the problems is the fact that you have removed the wood on only one side of the gun.   Take the wood off the left side and see what it looks like then.    Apparently you don't have a gunbuilding book, or, if you do, you're not reading it.
My first question would be...it appears to be a swamped barrel, why the hook breech?           Don

[Dphariss]

I am sorry this has risen up to bite you.
I hate things like this, gives me a bad stomach. I replaced a stock a few years ago, a friend is using it for carving practice right now.

Clamp the standing part of the breech in a vise and then heat the tang to red and bend close to the standing breech. Or scrap it and start over.
Put flat head screws with nuts on the bottom in the holes and tighten them tight. Heating the tang red will reduce the stress on the holes. This may require several bends at different places on the tang to correct.
Never drill holes in tangs until you have all the other parts in place. Until the trigger is in its difficult to know exactly where the screws really need to be.

The parts must be carefully examined BEFORE inletting. There are parts out there that are really just scrap brass and iron in the form of gun parts. Wax casting made from waxes that are a little "off" will produce warped parts that may not be correctable.  Waxes can slump or warp if they get a little too warm and the foundry man is not aware of what he is making or perhaps does not care much one way or the other he makes a percentage of junk.
Parts cast from original parts with no attempt to correct things can include "fixes" the original maker filed into the parts. I have a couple of buttplates that suffer from this and have no idea what to do with them now.
Drawing a centerline on the stock can prevent such things from reaching this stage.
If the parts do not lay on or close to the centerline its a red flag.

Dan

[JDK]

Ouch!  Now I see it...."not asymmetrical"....got it.  Thanks Scott.  What a mess.

I am sure L&R or your retailer will replace the tang gratis.  The wood however.....again, Ouch!  You have my sympathy.  Good Luck.  J.D.K.

[Swampwalker]

I suspect the problem may have originated where the barrel breech meets the standing breech portion -  a degree or so out of square here can throw the alignment off, say 1/8 inch (judging by your centerline on the comb).  You need to re-fit this junction.   Keep at it until the alignment is perfect.  Then, either scrap the stock (ouch!) or carefully patch in a piece on the right side of the tang inlet.  You can cut a piece of filler wood off of the left side of the wrist.  If you get a good joint, match the grain orientation, and darken it up when you're done, you may just about hide it.  Good luck!

[JDK]

NOT ASYMETRICAL.  If you look at the standing breach where it meets the barrel there is more metal on the left than on the right so the hollowed out areas are a different size.  Opening up the hole and moving the breech left won't solve the problem as I see it.  If I am correct the breech suposed to be is as wide as the barrel so moving it left will mean it is not aligned on the right side.  Return the tang as a defective part and request a new one.  j.m.2.c.  J.D.K.

[JDK]

I couldn't agree more with Dphariss...."The parts must be carefully examined BEFORE inletting"....this could be an expensive way to learn this lesson though.  J.D.K.

[Scott Semmel]

Dphariss- "Put flat head screws with nuts on the bottom in the holes and tighten them tight. Heating the tang red will reduce the stress on the holes"  Now I never would have thought of that, good tip,thanks, hope I never need to use it.
Don-Not feeling much like candy coating it thes morning?

[wetzel]

Well that's a lot to take in, I still need to cogitate on what I should do.  I have thought about this problem much and how I could have avoided it.  The breech and tang are asymmetrical.  I didn't notice until I had the breech seated and put the tang on.  At this point I thought it was just those edges matching up wrong and thought I could file to fix them, but forgot about the long tang.  As far as Don's question about the slant breech, the barrel is not swamped and the gun will be a Southern Mountain Gun, and to be honest I put the slant breech in because I wanted it for ease of cleaning not historical accuracy.  I will try evening up the wood or at least drawing a line to get an idea of how it will look.  I am so hesitant to take wood off:(  I do have and read books, though I am so new and inexperienced I figure I'm missing about 95% of the information presented, so I the lesson to me is to re-read before doing specific jobs.  So here is a question, if I were to file the tang to match up to the barrel flats and appear more symmetrical and if the whole slant somewhat fit into my cast off profile, is there enough wood on the lock side to be able to round out a wrist and lock mortise?

[wetzel]

Oh, and thanks everybody for your time and advice!!  Dan, I think I might go with putting screw's and nut's in then trying to bending it to be in line.

[wetzel]

Would mapp gas get it hot enough?

[heinz]

MAPP gas is hot enough if you have a good torch.  Building a fire chamber out of fire bricks can increase the Mapp gas heating efficiency.
Why not go to a new tang? Use a traditional flint style breeh and move the barrel back a bit.  Make it a lot easier on yourself.  And you won't spend the next 20 years explaining why you have a Hawken Breech on a Tennessee gun :-)

[Dave Faletti]

You might consider making a check list of all the steps to make your gun.  Break it down to whatever level of detail you might need.  More is better than too little.  It makes it much harder to skip a step or get out of sequence.  Best if you can go thru the sequence and understand why part location and alignment of holes and such is done at a given point and not earlier or later.  As mentioned it appears you don't have the center line drawn on the stock.  A number of things can be drawn out and careful consideration is needed about wood removal since your reference lines and surfaces go with it.

Hopefully you can get your project back on track.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Time for some "hard love".  It looks to me like the hooked breech and tang do not match the size of the barrel, and all of the metal of the standing breech tang has been filed away from one side.  I've used dozens of these L & R sets without incident, so don't blame L & R.  On the last Hawken rifle I built, I used a breech and tang I bought at Dixon's Fayre - make unknown - but when the tang was fit to the hook, and the plug in the barrel, the tang scooted off to one side a bit.  If I had inlet it like that, it would have been very noticeable.  So I bent it cold using Ken Guy's system of three rods in the vise, clamping the tang gently between the rods and applying pressure to bend the tang straight.  Easiest thing to do.  Then, with the tang on the hook and the barrel upsidedown, looking down the middle flat, I could see that the tang was dead centre.  I soft soldered the tang to the plug, and inlet the unit right down the drawn centre line.  All this is just to illustrate that parts can not be assumed to be perfect and may need a little judicial work to make them so.
Now, back to your dilemma.  I cannot see how you can save it.  Both the tang and the wood are beyond rectification, in my view.  Too much wood has been cut away from the lock side.  Unless you are willing to set new wood into the tang recess, and glue more maple to the lock panel, I'd say you will want a new stock blank.
Dan Pharis' advice on set up is right on.

[wetzel]

I was afraid of that.

[wetzel]

Taylor, you don't think it would work to glue wood into the tang place, bend the tang more in line with the barrel and reinlet it?

[JDK]

I know you are soliciting Taylor but....if you just want the practice on doing repairs go for it....but you won't be happy in the end.  The tang is one of the most visible areas of the rifle....always under the shooters eye....so needs to be right.  You can always use this piece for carving practice or a try-stock.  Believe me you aren't the first to create expensive firewood.  Alan Martin told me recently that nobody will ever see his first build.

If at first you don't sauced.....right?  J.D.K.

[KentSmith]

You already inlet the tang and drilled holes, unfortunately.  

How much filing was done when fitting the plug?  

Is the tang filed down symetically to fit the barrel or is it the picture that looks to be meatier on the lock side.  Almost like the tang has been filed down on the offside - maybe just the camera angle.

Draw in your centerline.  If things look repairable, take wood off the offside to keep things symetrical.  

Most likely need new wood or patch the inlet, fill the drill holes and shape the tang assuming the tang is in the plane of the barrel and not made for a wider breeched barrel.