Patchbox wire inlay.

[chris laubach]

Chris:

If done properly there is absolutely no need to use glue on wire inlay or solder for that matter.



Chris Laubach

  In response to your post, you needed to add the qualifying ending to your statement:  "These steps to doing silver wire inlay are not necessary for Chris Laubach."!

Also, I might remind you that there are a number of facets to gunmaking that are unnecessary such as, using sandpaper, using modern epoxies, using electricity for good lighting, employing modern chemical composits for wood finish and metal finish and on and on.  However, the decision to employ any or all of these techniques and materials rests solely with the individual artisan.  His choice will be based on such constraints as time, authenticity, peer pressure and his knowledge of the realm of historical gun making.  Any or all of the preceding criteria will be factors in his decision.  I am somewhat familiar with the "Laubach" tradition of gunmaking and remain in admiration, but the way I do things is not, and will not, be the same as you do certain things.  My gunmaking techniques will only be judged by "Father time"
and not by you or anyother contemporary maker - not even the good people at Dixons.   
That's how I  see things,   Hugh Toenjes

Perhaps you have not had the privilege to study originals and see how things have been done over 200 to 300 hundred years ago…..and have stood the test of “Father time”! You are creating more work that is not necessary! If you choose to do so that is your business. But as I have stated “it is not necessary”. Furthermore ‘WHY’ would you want to subject the wood surface and grain to GLUE when it is not necessary? If you learn other techniques ….maybe more traditional ways you may find them to be easier and faster. Oh and one other thing you should not file the ribbon down as you may roll a burr………..And that’ how I see things.


And what does Dixons have to do with this??



Chris Laubach

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Here are two pictures of the same rifle by a guy by the name of Andrew Verner.  These are from the KRA's wonderful CD, and I hope it is ok to use them for educational purposes.
Most of us would consider this to be first rate wire inlay, and if we could come close, we'd be very pleased.  There are places where, admittedly, the wire doesn't connect with its neighbouring piece, elbows occur, especially in the inlay along the bottom of the buttstock (not shown here) and the wire is coming out over the wrist in one spot.  Still, this decoration has much appeal, charm and personality.
Coincidentally, I'm trying to build a copy of this rifle as we speak(type).   So this thread is of great interest to me.

On an ebony stocked wheellock pistol I made, the .010" silver ribbon was coming loose along the pommel of the grip, and no amount of resetting it would make it stay.  For one thing, the ribbon was cutting straight across the grain and second, it was going around the curve of the wrist in one length.

I asked advice on how to repair it, and I believe it was you Chris who replied.  I was told to upset the inward edge of the ribbon with a great many nicks cut into the edge with a sharp knife.  So I carefully withdrew the wire from its groove and laying it on its back, taped away for a long time on the thin edge, until I had covered the edge with thousands of nicks in many directions.  Now I reintroduced the ribbon into the cut, tapping it in as I went with a very small polished ball peen hammer.  It went in so well that the silver ended up too long for the mortise and I cut it off with my nippers to make it fit.  The result was fabulous, and very little refinishing was required.  And the best part, the silver is in there permanently.
This method of locking in the ribbon is excellent for those places where you are inlaying a ribbon over a curve.

Hugh, I read your tutorial from start to finish, and you are to be commended for taking the time to prepare it, and also for your generosity to share it with us.  You have a different approach to most of us, and I enjoy seeing examples of it in your work.

One last comment, if I may...I cut my ribbons from .005", .010" .015" and occasionally from .020" sheet brass or pure silver, but I only cut them max. 3/32" wide and sometimes only 1/16".  I drive the chisels which are correspondingly thin only as far in as the width of the ribbon plus a few thou', and tap the ribbon down flush with the wood.  I use a new six inch single cut bastard file to dress the metal off to the wood's surface, filing from both sides, and I haven't experienced a burr as a result.  But I'll watch for it.

[chris laubach]

This method of locking in the ribbon is excellent for those places where you are inlaying a ribbon over a curve.

What part of a stock is not curved? 


Chris Laubach

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

You're up late tonight Chris!!  Cutting around the wrist of an ebony stocked pistol was challenge enough.  Getting flat ribbon to bend across its width was "interesting".

I had trouble too on the lower forend of a Rupp rifle, but persistence paid off.

[Blacksmoke]

Chris:  In actual fact I have had the privilege to examine, restore and research hundreds of antique guns  here in the U.S. , in Canada and Europe.  Many of them were "guns made for kings" meaning that they were in the "high end" bracket of their time.  For me it is sad to see some of these fine weapons being destroyed be the ravages of time.  A lot of the damage was a result of poor care on behalf of the curators
entrusted with the  responsibility of providing a "safe" environment for these treasures.   Yes some of these guns had been decorated with "wire" and some cases the wire was coming loose - if not already fallen out.   (I have also seen contemporary wire fall out)  I have seen many different ways which were employed to install silver wire, both historically and contemporary.  As a result I have learned to do the techniques which I explained in my 5 part tutorial.
Granted they are not the same as those used my my predecessors but I want my workmanship to stand the test of time.  The guns that I make are not copy's of any body Else's work or workmanship.  I strive to do the best of my ability with what lessons I have learned throughout the 39 yrs. in which I have been making and restoring muzzle loading firearms.  Just about as long as you have been alive.
  I have never had a single problem using white wood glue on any wood surface into which I have inlaid silver wire.  It is simply dispersed by the steam used to swell the wood fibers back together along with the final sanding of the gunstock.   The tiny burrs that occur on the surface of the silver ribbon are easily removed with the tip of a sharp exacto knife before the final finish is applied.
  As to the reference to "Dixons" , it is a place where contemporary judging takes place every summer and to some a "Mecca" for the longrifle maker.  If one his gun to be judged by his contemporaries here is a place to have it done.  There are other places such as "public auction" - I have had the experience of having several of my "presentation grade" cased sets being sold at such auctions.   In this case the "collectors" are the judge.          Hope this answeres your questions,  if not please feel free to ask again.    Hugh Toenjes

[chris laubach]

Chris:  In actual fact I have had the privilege to examine, restore and research hundreds of antique guns  here in the U.S. , in Canada and Europe.  Many of them were "guns made for kings" meaning that they were in the "high end" bracket of their time.  For me it is sad to see some of these fine weapons being destroyed be the ravages of time.  A lot of the damage was a result of poor care on behalf of the curators
entrusted with the  responsibility of providing a "safe" environment for these treasures.   Yes some of these guns had been decorated with "wire" and some cases the wire was coming loose - if not already fallen out.   (I have also seen contemporary wire fall out)  I have seen many different ways which were employed to install silver wire, both historically and contemporary.  As a result I have learned to do the techniques which I explained in my 5 part tutorial. Granted they are not the same as those used my my predecessors but I want my workmanship to stand the test of time.

And here again some people just like yourself are using inferior techniques. This is why wire ribbon does not stay in. Lets think about this.
Wood is always moving, how long do you think that GLUE joint you have created is going to stay together before
the movement of the stock "pops" it loose? Than what is left to keep your wire from coming out??

  The guns that I make are not copy's of any body Else's work or workmanship.  
I don't care for copies either.

I strive to do the best of my ability with what lessons I have learned throughout the 39 yrs. in which I have been making and restoring muzzle loading firearms.  Just about as long as you have been alive.
You have me on age. I have only been doing this for 27 years. Fortunately for me the fine gentlemen (Jon Laubach, Wallace Gusler, Gary Brumfield) I have learned from have been doing this for a while.

 I have never had a single problem using white wood glue on any wood surface into which I have inlaid silver wire.  It is simply dispersed by the steam used to swell the wood fibers back together along with the final sanding of the gunstock.
Ok if you say so. It is sloppy!  All I can tell you is if I poured wood glue all over a 200+ year old stock during a restoration job.....you wood not be in business very long!

The tiny burrs that occur on the surface of the silver ribbon are easily removed with the tip of a sharp exacto knife before the final finish is applied.
Exactly my point!!!!!!!!! They way you are doing it is inferior and takes lot more time!

As to the reference to "Dixons" , it is a place where contemporary judging takes place every summer and to some a "Mecca" for the longrifle maker.  If one his gun to be judged by his contemporaries here is a place to have it done.  ask again.    
When I started 27 years ago if I needed to have my stuff "judged" it was by my father or Wallace Gusler or Gary Brumfield.  That's it!


Good Day,
Chris Laubach

[JTR]

To glue/solder, or not too, I'm not standing on either side of that fence!

I don't build guns, only collect and admire them, and in the many years of doing so have seen and handled at least many hundreds, and maybe more than a thousand original guns, from some of the best, to those that are less than best. And on the vast majority of those with wire inlay, Some of the wire is either popped up a bit, popped up a lot, or missing all together. And I don't think it has much to do with the way the wire was inlayed, but has to do with wood shrinkage.

Those of you that have seen originals, or pictures of originals, have certainly noticed how sometimes the patchboxes and/or inlays look like they are sitting on top of the wood, or above the wood, instead on inlet into it. That's not the way the gun was made, that's wood shrinkage. Look at the pictures that Taylor posted of the Verner gun, and how the wrist inlay and the barrel tang are popped up above the wood, due to shrinkage. Of course woods shrinks differently on different guns, and in different areas so it's more pronounced on some than others.
So in the end, I don't think it really matters how you put the wire in,, in the long run it's Probably going to pop out to some degree.

My only long term study of shrinkage is the only longrifle I ever made, back in 1981. This rifle has a bit of wire inlay, both silver and brass and it was finished perfectly flush with the wood; not glued, but with the edges of the wire roughed up. Other than when at a shooting session, the gun has lived its entire life in a heated/air conditioned house, and in 30 years the wood has shrink some, and the wire is popped up above the surface maybe 1/16". If my gun had lived the life of many originals, without the heating and air conditioning, I can see how some of that wire could have been popped out and long gone by now.

Personally, I like wire inlay and think it looks good! And if you build a gun with wire inlay, and it's a good enough gun to be saved for a very long time, if some of the wire pops out don't worry about it, someone else will replace it/restore it for you!
 
John
 

[Jim Kibler]

JTR,

I believe techniques employed make a significant difference in how wire inlay work holds up.  How well the wire is anchored in the wood is the key.  It's true that changes in humidity and overall shrinkage is a nemisis of wire work, but the effects can be minimized.  As to techniques originally used, it becomes pretty uncertain since it's not usually visible.  As an example, I have a couple of mid eighteenth century fowling pieces beside me.  The wrist wire work on one is hardly raised above the wood surface while that on the other is raised significantly more.  On other examples, large amounts of wire can be completely gone.  The heavily inlaid fowling piece posted some time ago on Art and Jan's site is a good example of this.  Sure these might have seen different environment conditions, but I am also confident that techniqes make a siginificant difference.

As to the mention of inlays being proud of the wood surface...  They may have been originally flush, but I think this is pretty difficult to be confident of.  I suspect they were sometimes originally slightly proud of the wood surface given the degree which some stand above the wood today.  From a practical standpoint of building a gun, an inlay sligtly above the wood has some advantages.  It also creates a different visual appeal.  I wonder if the default idea of an inlay being flush has something to do with our modern ideas of what is correct and proper?

So, for the builder today, all is not lost to mother nature.  We have seen Hugh's wire techniqes.  Perhaps Chris might explain the methods he uses.

Jim

[JTR]

Jim,
And that's why I put the Caps on the word Some and Probably.
Technique might account for some wire inlays staying in place, but temperature and humidity will certainly cause wood to shrink and swell.

As example, I have two rifles made by the same maker. One rifle still has a fine finish with the patchbox and inlays well seated into the wood. The other rifle has finish, but the wood is badly corrugated on mostly one side, and the PB and inlays on that side are sitting well proud of the surface. If this gun had wire inlay, I could well imagine it being in place on one side, but gone on the other.

Given that a lot or even most of the old guns went along with minimal care for many many years, heat and cold and humidity had lot's of time to do its work. Patchboxes and inlays had screws and/or nails to hold them in place yet the wood shrank or pushed them out of place. Wire inlay, with nothing but wood tension to hold it in place is lucky to survive at all.

Again, just my opinion after looking at, and studying, lots and lots of guns!

I can see how Hugh's way of doing it could well stand the test of time, and like you, would like to hear the way Chris does it as well.

 Like I said, I don't stand on either side of this discussion, but am interested in varying techniques.
John

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Lots of good discussion by talented and knowledgeable people.    Personally I think it is hard to prove how long different methods will last or that a particular technique is slower or faster for everyone. What works for one might not work for another, and will last the longest is conjecture as far as I can see......    
I listen to all....Cause my experience is very limited and then I do what I think will be the best for me to do... it may not be the same as somebody else does, but it works for me, for now.....can't say it won't change at some point... hey, I still make 2 part wooden patchbox lids 

Chris, tell us more about how you recommend we do it and why.  This thread seems to be of significant interest. Hugh, Thanks for the contribution of posting the link to your tutorial. Its a nice contribution to ALR.

[Jim Kibler]

Personally I think it is hard to prove how long different methods will last or that a particular technique is slower or faster for everyone. What works for one might not work for another, and will last the longest is conjecture as far as I can see......    

Well, how it is staying in place as wire is being installed is an indicator.  Also you can install it and then try to remove it on a practice piece.  If a mechanical lock is formed by upsetting the bottom of the wire and then swelling wood around it, I feel confident in saying that it is securely held in place.  I have tried to remove practice pieces of wire when installed in this manner and I basically just destroyed a good part of the wire and surrounding wood before removing the wire.  This and a few other techniqes are part of a method that Wallace developed.  I suspect this is the method Chris has been alluding to.

[chris laubach]

Personally I think it is hard to prove how long different methods will last or that a particular technique is slower or faster for everyone. What works for one might not work for another, and will last the longest is conjecture as far as I can see......    

Well, how it is staying in place as wire is being installed is an indicator.  Also you can install it and then try to remove it on a practice piece.  If a mechanical lock is formed by upsetting the bottom of the wire and then swelling wood around it, I feel confident in saying that it is securely held in place.  I have tried to remove practice pieces of wire when installed in this manner and I basically just destroyed a good part of the wire and surrounding wood before removing the wire.  This and a few other techniqes are part of a method that Wallace developed.  I suspect this is the method Chris has been alluding to.

You got it Jim!

[chris laubach]

Chris, tell us more about how you recommend we do it and why.  

As per the instructions raising teeth or burr on the bottom of the wire with chisel;


Picture of burrs;


Picture of burrs under magnification;


And as for why. Because it stays in and you don't put wood glue over your stock that you would like to stain. Also wood glue is good for wood, don't know how well it works on silver?

This process seems to work well even for multiple pieces of wire in the same channel;


Even works well when you are dealing with multiple surfaces;


Works good for cross hatching as well;



Will post more about the process as time permits. But basically you are creating teeth on the bottom of the wire.
and the channel that the wire goes in is pushed back or out of the way allowing it to swell back and bite into those teeth once water is applied.

Chris Laubach

[Blacksmoke]

Chris:   It seems that this thread is heating up a bit? and I have to apologize if you are taking things the wrong way from my postings.  It was never my intent to offend you or raise your hackles by the information that I was giving you.  I did not intend for this to become "dueling silver wire"!?    only an attempt to share information about the way I do things.   You are absolutely correct when you say that glue and solder are unnecessary but only unnecessary for you because you have a different way of doing this type of inlay.  This is very clear by your drawings above - which are some what confusing to me anyway but thanks for sharing.
  However I mean no hard feelings what so ever and congratulate you having had the privilege of being taught by some of the great contemporaries of modern times.  Your work looks exemplary!  Hugh Toenjes

[chris laubach]

Hugh,
I did not get offend by the information you posted only cared to offer what I felt was a better way of applying silver ribbon. There are no hard feelings and thanks for the complements.

Chris Laubach

[bama]

My thanks to both Hugh and Chris for there efforts to help explain the process of wire inlay. It could not have come at a better time for me as I am in the process of building a rifle that is going to have a lot of wire.

[Jay Close]

While I had feared that this thread was going to degenerate for a while, I am now really refreshed and gratified. I wish there were more discussion like this with skilled, experienced tradesmen sharing techniques and discussing their relative merits to the benefit of all. Many, many thanks for this exchange of views, and I look forward to further information from Chris.

[Dphariss]

While I had feared that this thread was going to degenerate for a while, I am now really refreshed and gratified. I wish there were more discussion like this with skilled, experienced tradesmen sharing techniques and discussing their relative merits to the benefit of all. Many, many thanks for this exchange of views, and I look forward to further information from Chris.

Ditto.

Dan

[Robby]

The trouble is, we will have to wait a couple hundred years to find out that they are both right.
Robby

[Blacksmoke]

Me too - I do not see any longitudinal scoring on the side of the wire ribbon in Gusler's drawing?  I am surprised at this.  Also the ribbon is not tapered?   I can see how Chris's method would work with very wide wire - say .050" or thicker,  but might present a problem with wire .010" and smaller?
  Anyway back to Taylor's problem of retention of wire in a heavily contoured part of the gunstock - I use pure silver and thus it is very soft which allows me to form and swage it to almost any shape that I want before setting down in the groove - even bending it on edge to fit the contour that I am working with.
That's how I do it,   Hugh Toenjes

[Blacksmoke]

Me too - I do not see any longitudinal scoring on the side of the wire ribbon in Gusler's drawing?  I am surprised at this.  Also the ribbon is not tapered?   I can see how Chris's method would work with very wide wire - say .050" or thicker,  but might present a problem with wire .010" and smaller?
  Anyway back to Taylor's problem of retention of wire in a heavily contoured part of the gunstock - I use pure silver and thus it is very soft which allows me to form and swage it to almost any shape that I want before setting down in the groove - even bending it on edge to fit the contour that I am working with.
That's how I do it,   Hugh Toenjes

While I had feared that this thread was going to degenerate for a while, I am now really refreshed and gratified. I wish there were more discussion like this with skilled, experienced tradesmen sharing techniques and discussing their relative merits to the benefit of all. Many, many thanks for this exchange of views, and I look forward to further information from Chris.

Ditto.

Dan

[Jim Kibler]

Tapping the bottom of the wire with a chisel and thus upsetting it provides the mechanical lock.  Score marks on the sides do little in comparison.  When measured, the upset region will sometimes approach double the original starting wire thickness.  The wire isn't tapered in cross section since this shape is conducive to being purshed out of the stock.  As Chris's drawings show, the process involves stabbing the design in with V-shaped tools to open up a groove.  Next a parallel sided flat bottomed tool is stabbed in the design to create more or less a rectangular parallel sided groove wide enough to accept the wire with upset edge.  The wire is inserted in the groove and then the wood is swelled on the wire with water thus locking it in place. Since wood is not removed, but compressed in forming the groove, the swelling proces is possible.  Wire of any reasonable thickness will work with this process.  

A couple other notes...  A good way to bend wire on edge for any material, (brass, sterling etc.) is to gently hammer on the side of the wire focusing the blows near one edge. This will create whatever curve you need to match the stock profile.  It is very simple and works amazingly well.  Having a shape that matches the stock shape helps the wire stay in place as well  since the tension from the wire is avoided.

One more important aspect about this process is that it provides a great deal of control.  The groove in the wood is opened up such that the wire can be inserted with out heavy force.  This avoids problems with bent or distorted wire sometimes encountered when trying to force wire in a V-shaped groove.

I was recently taught the process by Wallace and am using in right now for wire inlay on a fowling piece.  There are a few more methods he uses to help hold the ends fo the wire in place , but this is the main part of the process.  It seems to be working quite well.  

Jim

[Blacksmoke]

Thanks Jim - I have one question,  doesn't the removal of wood using a V groove to inlay into provide less wood for the wire to hang onto even if it is only a small amount at the top of the groove?
Hugh Toenjes

[Jim Kibler]

No wood is removed.  It is just a chisel with a roughly v-shaped side profile that is driven in perpendicular to the wood surface. Think of a screw driver that is sharpened to a a bit more of a point.  Any carving chisels or gouges will work.  The idea is to establish a design and to open up the groove sufficiently to allow the parallel sided tool to be inserted so it spreads the wood rather than crushing it when driven in.   This is shown in Chris's drawing, but is shown a big more dramatically than it actually is.

[Blacksmoke]

Jim:  Boy did I ever misinterpret Gusler's drawing!  It looked like "V" groove chisel was used to remove the beginning cut for the inlay.   The way you describe it now makes sense - because that is the way that I do my "stab in" as well.  I make my chisels out of old screwdrivers .    As to the 200yrs. of "proof" time - I can only offer 35!?  .  I have never had a piece of my wire drop out or become proud so you could feel it with you eyes closed.  However there are 165 yrs. left to go!?  Here is an idea - how about combining the two methods?  This would give double the protection to loosing wire!?        Hugh Toenjes