The Golden Mean

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

Susie, I find this concept intriguing.  Would you mind posting a photo image or a drawing of what the calipers look like with some dimensions?

I just make these out of 1/8" x 3/8" flat stock, same as we make our chisels out of, so that the tips could be hardened. The most important dimension is making sure you are dead on center when you drill to install the axle. This is critical to center it.
I make my rough overal length of both legs in the neighborhood of 14-1/2" long.
Then drill the axle at 3-3/8 (leave a tiny bit more in case you over-do the pointing). Point these shorter legs along the outer surfaces, but leave the inside alone. Use a screw with a nut so it will hold while you complete the final step.
What you are after here, is to fix the axle with the short legs on exactly 3 inches. This opens the opposing longer legs. Point these longer legs at 4.854 inches while those shorter legs are set on exactly 3 inches. A finished set will be roughly 14-1/8" long but this is not the exact dimension. You will see what I'm describing as you work on them. We built a fixture so we could duplicate them. To do an individual set takes a little while but its worth it. The hardest thing is to find a way for them to stay set while you are translating pictures.
Susie

[Jim Filipski]

I just make these out of 1/8" x 3/8" flat stock, same as we make our chisels out of, so that the tips could be hardened. The most important dimension is making sure you are dead on center when you drill to install the axle. This is critical to center it.
I make my rough overal length of both legs in the neighborhood of 14-1/2" long.
Then drill the axle at 3-3/8 (leave a tiny bit more in case you over-do the pointing). Point these shorter legs along the outer surfaces, but leave the inside alone. Use a screw with a nut so it will hold while you complete the final step.
What you are after here, is to fix the axle with the short legs on exactly 3 inches. This opens the opposing longer legs. Point these longer legs at 4.854 inches while those shorter legs are set on exactly 3 inches. A finished set will be roughly 14-1/8" long but this is not the exact dimension. You will see what I'm describing as you work on them. We built a fixture so we could duplicate them. To do an individual set takes a little while but its worth it. The hardest thing is to find a way for them to stay set while you are translating pictures.


Susie

Would be a good candidate for  "tutorial" or a "Shop made Tool"
What say you?

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

Ugghh. I aint that educated on the computer stuff. Wish I could do that, but its one step at a time! Easier to build guns than me handle a computer!
I do have a fella that may help me with that, but we will see what we can do. He has been pushing me to do the schools.
Susie

[woodsrunner]

northwoodsdave,

My first thoughts when I made my initial post on this thread was to point out, maybe in some detail, the connection between Freemasonry and the GM. I decided that it wouldn't be a good idea, however, because for sure some would not be willing to approach this side of things with an open mind. Sometimes it's best to just remain silent.....especially if you don't know how many guns Plato made .

I think that you are probably correct in saying that some number of the early makers of Pennsylvania/Kentucky rifles were Freemasons. Lorentz Kafka is the "Authority" in this area, and IIRC Lorentz told me that for sure Andreas Albrecht and George Shroyer were Freemasons and Jacob Dickert probably was also. It would be interesting to know, and to apply the GM to their creations! Carvings on stocks and designs engraved on various metal parts speak volumes by the way!

[jerrywh]

I have an opened mind. My mind is waiting for someone to show me any references to the golden means in any gunmaking books or publications from any period before 1900.  If you look at some of the engravings in the books you will see gun patterns hanging on the walls at times and dividers but what does that mean. 
  Just because we all don't agree on somehing. There is no harm in discussing it. No body knows everything. Opinions are not proof. I have heard it stated that the [OLD MASTERS] especially in Europe
all laid out thier guns using  the golden rule. I have never read or seen any evidence to prove that.
  There is a ton of records from centuries past but no documented evidence that they did except circumstancial.  The theory only fits a small percentage of guns exactly. Almost isn't good enough for me.  It is not a matter of life or death. The problem with any controversial subject is it usually turns into an matter of egos.  I don't care who is the winner. I just want to know the answer.
   If you study a couple of hundred longrifles you can come to sort of an average set of retios. One thing I have noticed is this. With barrels that are 38" or longer the distance between the front trigger and the center of the buttplate is usually equal to the distance from the front trigger to the entre thimble. Or --like the golden means almost.   Also on average, octagon to round  pistol barrels are 40% octagon. That don't fit the golden rule.
    everybody's opinion is of value as far as I'm concerned.

[Stophel]

Plato said that man went through four distinct phases in developing his intellect. At first he was in a state of total "Ignorance", and didn't even know that there was anything to know! The second phase was that of "Opinion", and this could be broken down into two subcatagories, right opinion and wrong opinion. Next up the line in development was"Reason", and here a man would realize that it was necessary, through education and study, especially in mind-sharpening subjects such as mathematics...the old 1.6180339887 Golden Mean kinda thing...to progress to the next level ie "Intelligence"!

In reading the posts that have been made on the Golden Mean, I have SOMEHOW formed the opinion-right or wrong-that some of us are hung up in the early "Opinion" phase while most have advanced to the "Reason" phase, and one or two, as was Patrick Hallam, have reached the "Intelligence" stage! Usually,IMO, those among us who attempt to educate the unknowing have achieved the "Intelligence" phase!

So, if someone doesn't agree with you, they simply have not reached "the intelligence phase"?

 


Freemasonry is also VASTLY different now than it was in 18th century America.  There was a major change in American freemasonry in the early 19th century.  Modern masonic ideas do not transpose to the 18th century masonic member.

[Marty]

Well, I find it very funny that some people are so quick to put down someone Else's idea's especially when they admit that they have no experience in it! Well, i can tell you that i was in the same boat, until i sat down with the books and went through them. I would flip the pages till i saw a beautiful gun. I would get the dividers out and check, 9 times out of 10 it was right on and the other 1 would be very, very close.

I am sure that the reason most people have never heard of this is because it wouldn't have been taught to every apprentice. Only the special gifted ones would be given the knowledge. maybe again that was why the dividers were used, it gets rid of the math for those who may not have been that educated. Just a side bar, these dividers are just like ones used by sailors to plot maps.  I believe that it was used to hit the major reference lines then the master would refine it with the eye. I will post a picture of the dividers ASAP.

If these proportions were good enough for the almighty to use to make the universe i guess it is good enough to build an old gun by!

[JTR]

                                        Ye old minutes
                                     from ye old manuscript
                                      of ye [OLD MASTERS]
                                       conversing regarding
                                              THE USE
                                              of ye old
                                           GOLDEN MEAN

So Wolfgang Haga looked over at J. P. Beck with a quizzical look, “So’d you ever use that Golden Mean thing on the gons you did?”
Beck looked back at Haga, “You bet! Used it on every gon I did! An You?”
“Naw,” said Haga. “I never heard about it til long after I was dead.” “Besides,” he continued, “my gons look a lot better than yo’rs so wouldn’t made no nohow anyways.”
Beck frowned at his ol buddy. “$#*! you say! Mine are gorgeous, they’re symmetrical, hellsbells, they’re ny on perfect!”
“Well, that’s a matter of opinion!” shot back Haga. “Mine are pure simplistic beauty!”
“And woulda looked a lot better ifn you’d a used the Golden Mean!” fired back Beck.
“Guys, guys, no need to argue the point,” Joe Long said. “I think,,,,,,”
“What the heck do you know Mr. Johnny come lately,” Haga croaked. “I been dead a least twice as long as you!”
“Geeeze,” Long moaned and rolled his eyes. “Beck was just sayin that ifn,,,”
“Ifn nothing!” Haga retorted. “Plenty a guys in the future payin plenty of money for my gons!”
“Not as much as mine!” Beck chuckled. “And least I signed my gons using the Golden Mean so them that bought them would know who made it.”
“Ah pooo! That Golden Mean thing ain’t worth a hoot, and I didn’t need to sign mine cause everyone already knows who made em!”
“Didn’t sign em cause ya didn’t know how!” Beck laughed.
“Didn’t sign um cause I didn’t need to!” Haga stammered.
“Well I signed mine, and I used the Golden Mean,” Joe long smiled, an I,,,,,”
“Phewww!” Haga interrupted. “Those dang things you made ain’t even gons, didn’t even use the right kinda locks, signed and Golden Mean or not! And besides, what kinda name is Joe, ain't no gon makers name, sounds like a plumbers name to me!”
“Well I beg to differ!” Long growned. “And least I didn’t blow my shop up with a keg a powder!
“Huuh, minor mishap, and Beg all ya want,” Haga dismissed. “You guys are tiring me out, so’s ya don’t mind, I’m gonna turn over in my grave and take a nap!”

So there you have it. Proof, right from the [OLD MASTERS]

John

[Marty]

I agree with Acer and Stophel. Most of this B.S. started from that JHAT article.
People selling dividers and such should put them in the classifieds or read only ads.

I believe the only one mentioning the sale of dividers is you, just now!!

[Marty]

This is a picture of the dividers i have.

[Ohioan]

Okay. 
If I built a gun to the exact demensions of an original 1780s gun, it would be a pain to shoot.  Too short LOP.  I want something that fits me, but is patterned after the style of an original. 

I guess this is something that will be argued for quite awhile.  Just becauswe every rifle doesn't match the golden mean exactly.

[Marty]

Ohioan

If you make exactly what you want you will always have exactly what you want!

Wow that was a little Yoda'ish!

[flintriflesmith]

Here is a link to my web site page that shows both modern and 18th-century proportioning dividers.

http://www.flintriflesmith.com/Tools%20&%20Techniques/proportioningdividers.htm

As the web site mentions there were many different formal set of proportion used in period design work. Cabinetmaker and architects seem to have been the most dedicated users of them but on page 62 of Master French Gunsmith's Designs there is a plate by Jean Berain that clearly shows how he used rules of proportion to lay out a flint cock. That was Paris in 1659 and has zero to do with longrifles in 1789 but it lets some of you know that it wasn't just Thomas Chippendale who was an educated master.

Gary

[hyltoto]

I have a picture of a Rupp rifle, and original, and all of the carving is laid out with the volute set of chisels, and I suspect the proportions are close. It is worth remebering that a to be a "journeyman" was to have a set of tools that matched guild standards. I reckon that the journeyman gunsmith made his tools from patterns that employed the golden mean type proportioning without ever realizing the significance of the proportions. I read recently "you are fired" means a journeyman's tool were confiscated and burned for punishment. I also imagine that once a smith had a design perfected, he didn't stray far from that pattern for the rest of his career.

[jerrywh]

I have a set of proportional dividers. In the past they were used by many artists to up or down scale objects and read maps.  They aren't used much anymore because of the computer. They can be set to any scale.
Most professional  craftsman probably had them in years past simply because of the convenience. Another method of reducing or enlarging was using a grid.
  I went to art school both armature and professional for 7 year and the Golden means was never mentioned. 
 I have a couple of friends who have masters degrees in fine art. I will ask them what they think of it.

[California Kid]

Jerry- good point. I have a set myself, can be set to any proportion you want.
Gary Brumfield illustrates both a modern version and a set from an 18th century catalog. Both adjustable to what ever proportion you desire.

[Karl Kunkel]

Wow, lotsa discussion since last night.  Previous post identified the "Red Book".

Hallam's book on the golden mean used rifles from the KRA Red book as examples, so the two go together as a set (sort of).

[Dave B]

Here is what Gary was talking about. Jean Berain pg 62 Master French Gunsmiths Design and an original set of french made proportional calipers. The points are steel set into german silver or packtonge.

[California Kid]

There was an English Fowler posted a while back with a lot of wire inlay which I believe the mounts were made of packtong, so I thought it to be a softer material like silver. I don't know. does any body else?
I understand it to be more valuable than silver.
Oh these calipers are adjustable as well. Maybe to what ever looks best.

[Randy Hedden]

Ohioan

If you make exactly what you want you will always have exactly what you want!

Wow that was a little Yoda'ish!

Nope, sounds more like something that Yogi Berra might have said.

Randy Hedden

www.harddogrifles.com

[Marty]

Ohioan

If you make exactly what you want you will always have exactly what you want!

Wow that was a little Yoda'ish!

Nope, sounds more like something that Yogi Berra might have said.



Ha HA HA, You are right. As a matter of fact the last time i came to a fork in the road i took it!

Randy Hedden

www.harddogrifles.com

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

Here is something to back up and think about. Today, we are taking pieces, pictures, and etc., and (myself and some others) using dividers set to use the GM to make an analysis. But think about this. This is backwards.
This is after the fact. What happens to you when you lay out, then cut, then rasp, then scrape, sand and finish? The point may move. Sometimes it does, sometimes it does not. What I teach, is based on these same examples; and, our building experience and how I believe they did the process within the limitations of their times. By measuring a walk-in customer, using the barrels and locks they had on hand, then designing the firearm around the customers build. Its the method to achieve a really nice end; a tool, like a pencil.
Anyway, its neat to think about it by putting yourself in their frame of mind and think about how they achieved the beauty.
Susie

[Ohioan]

I'm trying to contribute with limited knowledge, so if I say something in err, tell me. 

Why were barrels so many different lengths?  Most were somewhere around 45in +/- 4in.  I'm sure part of the reason is customer needs/ wants.

Did the varius lengths measure up to the golden mean?

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

Great question! Part of it is the time period, but the lengths had something to do with the forger of the barrel at the time of make. Depending on the period of time, like the transitional period being a time changing from the short Jeager hunting rifle barrel to evolving into the longer barrel that improved the sight plane and ultimately increased accuracy. But I think you are asking something here a little different. Most of the time it was probably the barrel maker, fine tuned by the gunmaker to the finished piece. Some rifle barrels do work out to GM dimensions within a rifle, most don't in regards to barrel length. Most everyone here assumed my answers meant that a whole gun was completely done to GM. I don't think that was always so. I think they used it to make parts of it more aesthetically pleasing; not necessarily 100%. But there are many that are, and they are something to look at. I have some original pistol barrels that are 100% GM, meaning the swamped waist lays out exact, or the octagon ends in a specific spot, but I brought this up because they were provided breeched to the makers and I don't know if that was a practice common to barrel makers here too. But you could see that would leave the muzzle length a question.
Susie

[Paddlefoot]

I think Suzie is right on the mark with this post. I would think that the decoration would be very close to the GM as that is what appears in nature and naturally looks best to people.  Just a little speculation here but I would bet that some of the masters also looked at the knowledge of the GM as almost "spiritual" because of all the natural occurances of it in nature. Remember the Nautilus spiral, the layout of the sunflower's rows of seeds, even the positioning of eyes nose and mouth on a human face.  If a gunsmith just built a gun to suit what fit the customer it would seem reasonable that some of the dimensions would fall close to the GM just because the GM ratio pops up so frequently in nature. Also consider that we use so many approximations based on our physical characteristics to determine things like length of trigger pull;eg, distance from bend of elbow to bend of 1st knuckle is about the right LOP. In my case that would be 14.5 inches. I'm sure that the spiritual aspect would be particularly stong if the gunsmith was a Mason as it appears some were.