Author Topic: Sights on doubles  (Read 13094 times)

Daryl

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Re: Sights on doubles
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2011, 03:38:00 AM »
I've heard that a lot of American double guns had sights for each barrel. One can only surmise they didn't know how to regulate them - Samuel Colt was one maker who's double rifles made it to the frontier.  The picture of the double with the bayonet has a single rear sight.

I've never heard of an English double with more than one sight for each range although according to Forsyth, some of them didn't shoot as well as they should have.

Proper regulation cost money.

In the percussion era, a properly made double allowed all sights to be folded down, and the point blank sighting was taken down the rib - the heft of the barrels giving the proper elevation to the ball for shooting to from 60 yards to 100yards depending on calibre.  Raising the first sight, did not give any more elevation top the ball, but merely defined the centre of the rib for more accurate shooting. Such, was the properly sighted rifle - in Forsyth's opinion.

As my .69's barrel is straight octagonal with no elevation at the breech over the muzzle, folding all sights flat and sighting over the 'hump' gives me the requisite point blank sighting without having to raise a blade. This works for fast shooting in close quarters - to point blank range which is 130yards.  This is a terrific system & the reason I filed off the standing sight to leave only it's 3 folding leaf sights - 100, 150 and 200yards.

Offline Captchee

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Re: Sights on doubles
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2011, 03:46:05 AM »
   Aim at his head...and you'll be dead!
ill second that one

  As was said SXS shotguns are  different then  rifles  in that the barrels are regulated  so the converge at a given distance . Rifles are  not , they shoot parallel and are regulated by wedging at the muzzle . Once the barrels are  tuned to shoot  properly , the center rib is then  fully and permanently  attached
Drillings are different yet in that they  converge  or shoot parallel depending on the barrel set .
As I said earlier .  The makers who made quality double rifles  went to great existents to match  barrels .
As Dan mentioned  the barrels would then be  regulated so as to  shoot equally with a given load . Thus you see only one sight  front and rear .
 Other times this want the case and a double  fenced rear sight was used .
 At one time I had a Luther  Alexandrite   rifle that was this way .
 It carried a single front blade set to the rib . But carried a 2 Fence rear sight
  Rear fence for the right barrel , front fence for the left .  If you forgot and shot the left barrel with the  rear fence  your pattern would be off 4 inchs right and 3 low at 100 .
Regulating shotgun barrels  frankly is a science all its own. I have read of  smiths that used strings , lanterns  and bending .
 In at least one case  the liege  papers  mention  using pre made beds  in which the barrels are set  then soldered.
  I even remember reading another account where muzzle distortions were used to regulate a shot pattern  

Dave Faletti

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Re: Sights on doubles
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2011, 04:12:45 AM »
No reason a double rifle couldn't have convergence on its barrels.  Crossover at half of max range or further would  work fine.  Like mentioned earlier I would prefer parallel.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Sights on doubles
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2011, 04:20:40 AM »
Here's how it was done in Michigan (maybe New York?) about 1850. Well, this is really a "triple" but the top two barrels are rifled. From Michigan Gunsmiths, 2nd edition, in process:




Very nice thanks for posting.
I suspect that a lot of American doubles had two sets of sights.

Dan
« Last Edit: January 22, 2021, 04:38:14 PM by rich pierce »
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Offline Shovelbuck

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Re: Sights on doubles
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2011, 04:48:34 AM »
No reason a double rifle couldn't have convergence on its barrels.  Crossover at half of max range or further would  work fine.  Like mentioned earlier I would prefer parallel.

Pedersoli Kodiak doubles are built that way. They are regulated to 75 yards. I would prefer parallel also.
I don't hunt the hard way, I hunt a simpler way.

Offline Habu

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Re: Sights on doubles
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2011, 05:25:20 AM »
Mr. Kelly, that is a neat gun.  I'd just never remember all the gadgets, and wind up using it for a club!

I've shot patched roundball from a number of doubles over the years, and regulated half-a-dozen or so of them by filing the muzzles; I've got a regular routine established.  If anyone wants to try this, be warned--it will usually really mess up shot patterns. 

To keep it simple, I usually start with a ball .010-.015 under actual bore size, with .015-.018" patching lubed with neatsfoot oil.  Shooting at 50 yards, start at 60 grains or so of FFg.  Use the same hold on the target to fire both right and left barrels.  Then load up and do it again.  I suppose ideally you'd want 10 shot groups (five from each barrel) but I often do 6 shot groups until I think I'm close to the right load. 

Work up in 10 grain increments.  As the powder charge increases, the initial largish group opens up into two groups, one from each barrel.  Measure the group size from each barrel and average them together; the load to use for regulation is the one with the best average group size. 

After 60-80 rounds from the bench, that's usually all the "fun" I want to have for the day, so I return another day to double-check my best load and file the muzzles. 

For instance, from a bench or post, my current 11 gauge gives me 2) 3" average groups at fifty yards.  Granted, those 3" groups are about 9" apart, and one is a little higher than the other.  If I wanted to regulate it for this load, I'd begin by filing the muzzles to first correct the horizontal dispersion.   

Think of a target's view of the muzzle of the right barrel.  From this perspective I'd want to file so the maximum amount of metal was removed at 3 o'clock, tapering away to none being removed at 9 o'clock.  I usually take 1 or 2 file strokes on the right barrel, deburr the muzzle with a piece of wet-or-dry, then shoot it to check how POI has moved.  Then I do the same thing on the left barrel (with the file removing metal at 9 o'clock but none at 3 o'clock).  Shoot it again first to see how the barrel groups alone, then to see how the two groups have moved towards each other.   

As the horizontal dispersion is corrected, some of the vertical dispersion will also be corrected (but some may be introduced).  When the horizontal dispersion is close, you have to decide what if anything to do about any remaining vertical dispersion.  If I have to do this, I tend to raise the POI of the low-shooting barrel, and leave the high shooting barrel alone.  This is done the same way, by filing at 6 o'clock on the muzzle of the low-shooting barrel.  By this point I'm usually shooting every half-file-stroke. 

When the two groups are close to super-posed, I start shooting at different ranges.  Usually, I wind up with a 3-4" group at 25 yards that is close to the sight on the gun.  At that point I'm usually done for the day, and finish up on another range visit. 

On the third visit, I check the groups from the previous day.  By this point in the process, I'm making corrections with emery cloth wrapped around a file.  At some point you just have to call it "good," or you'll be out there forever.

I helped a cousin set one a gun like this.  He had one of the early Navy Arms 12 gauges; we adjusted the left barrel to group ball with the right barrel, while leaving the right muzzle alone for shot use.  It's pretty much his "everything gun," and he is inordinately fond of it. 

Daryl

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Re: Sights on doubles
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2011, 05:48:43 PM »
Kodiaks aren't regulated in any way that I am aware of, other than the barrels are joined and the gun finished and sold.

 Regulation actually means they are shot worked on to make them shoot properly, which would be parallel, or converving to a single group at a given range. Trouble with that, is they are crossing and continue to cross.  Regulation suggests the barrels are joined, shot, then separated, changed in alignment, resoldered, reshot, separated, changed in alignment, resoldered & shot, etc, until they hit properly then joined finally and re-tested again.

Proper regulation is parallel - not converging nor diverging. The other 2 local .58 cal. Kodiaks I am familiar with, shoot over a foot apart, both vertically and just over a foot horizontally at 50 yards. They are both crossing (converging), not diverging.

With a Kodiak, one must work up loads just as in any other rifle - execpt you have two rifles and not only is a good shooting load desired from each barrel, through load manipulation, you might be able to actually find a load that allows you to use a single sight - as I did with mine.  Using 110gr. of 2F, a .574" RB and .025" Railroad mattress ticking patch, it shoots parallel and is easy loading with the 3/8" factory rod.  A short starter is necessary.

As to muzzleloading SXS shotguns shooting balls, undersized (lighter) balls may be more easily made to shoot well than full sized balls.  We've found this with side by side ctg. guns shooting both black powder or the other stuff. PM me if you are interested.

Note - when first trying my .58, the barrels crossed at 50 yards. By the time I had increased the charge to 100gr.2F from 80gr. 2F, the barrels uncrossed to the point of shooting into the same group - and accurately at that.  At 110gr. they shot perfectly parallel, then by 120gr. they crossed again, reversing the elevation that occured at 80gr.  This is merely regulating or finding the load to match the rifle's tubes. I use this double rifle on our trail walk often - it's fun to shoot and good practise for hunting banging the gongs with a fast right and left, catching the gong on it's forward swing with the second shot.

Offline Shovelbuck

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Re: Sights on doubles
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2011, 07:23:38 PM »
Quote
Kodiaks aren't regulated in any way that I am aware of, other than the barrels are joined and the gun finished and sold.

Maybe wrong term or whatever. ??? But those specs are direct from Pedersoli. They state, "Barrels regulated to 75 yards" The balls/or bullets cross at 75 yards. In fact, my .50 will put them side by side at 75. After that, the right barrel shoots left and visaversa. As I stated, I wish they were parallel.
I don't hunt the hard way, I hunt a simpler way.

Daryl

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Re: Sights on doubles
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2011, 07:48:45 PM »
What they state is not possible with a double barreled gun, but its typical - slugs maybe - balls maybe, but not both.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 08:32:45 PM by Daryl »

Naphtali

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Re: Sights on doubles
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2011, 08:36:35 PM »
What they state is not possible with a double barreled gun, but its typical.
Mr. Phariss is correct. My Safari was [nearly] regulated to shoot 775-grain bullets with 150 grains of Goex FFg to point of aim at 85 yards - a little different from Pedersoli's regulating claims. While the rifle accepted the load blandly and uneventfully, I couldn't take the punishment. After numerous gunsmithing changes to improve the rifle's ergonomics, I had to work up different, more modest loads.

Leatherbelly

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Re: Sights on doubles
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2011, 08:49:09 PM »
  Habu,
   Just a thought. I used a modern type rifle sight on a modern type shortened single barrel shotgun once(slug barrel,smooth) The sights were from a Remington BDL. The rear had a thin ramp and a sloped elevator that the sight sat on. Might work with a little grinding to take out the ramps base which is rounded to their barrel profile. The rear sight is also a ramp type that is sloped toward the muzzle and has two holes drilled through longitudinally(lol,what a word!) so you might be able to screw the front sight on to your center rib.The dovetail sits on the top of the ramp.Looks sort of like the Pedersoli sights on the Kodiak. Might be worth a try if all else fails.

Dave Faletti

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Re: Sights on doubles
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2011, 09:06:08 PM »
Daryl.  If the barrels converge at mid range they will both hit closer to point of aim on average than if they are parallel.  Doubles aren't meant for long range precision shooting.  If I had a rifle like that  I would adjust the sights to be optimum for one barrel.  The second barrel is really for close to moderate range where something big is coming closer fast.  If someone needs that second shot at longer ranges it means they screwed the first shot which they shouldn't have taken.   Just my thought.    

blunderbuss

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Re: Sights on doubles
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2011, 10:39:52 PM »
Years ago I had a friend in League city Texas who imported Kodiak double rifles and went often to Italy to confer with the Italian gunsmiths. They tried every thing they knew to get the barrels to shoot the same point of impact with only one sight,including cutting the muzzles. They determined that the barrels could be regulated as were the originals  by trial and error ,soldering and unsoldering the barrels and placing small wedges between the barrels under the ribs to bend the barrel so that they would hit on at a certain distance determined by the customer. However that is allot more costly than they were willing to go so they ended up putting two sights on the barrels.
I have a double shot gun that I use in hunting and I sighted the left barrel to shoot ball and the left to shoot shot. The left barrel shoots on at 50 yards but begans to cross shoot any farther.

Offline Habu

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Re: Sights on doubles
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2011, 11:16:30 PM »
Leatherbelly, I thought about going the "modern sight" route, but that sorta takes the fun away from it.  In the late days on the Plains, some folks chose a double for night watch duty, for bears, etc; I'm trying to build a gun such as they might have liked.  Nothing fancy, just an good solid shotgun with low sights. 

I think with the approach Daryl instigated--dovetailing a sight into a raised rib, then fastening the rib to the center rib on the barrels--I can get a sight that is no higher than most rifle sights.  Put an 1/8" or so bead in front, then notch the rear sight like an express sight.  Not perfect, but better than a 24 gauge NW gun.  And unlike most modern "business shotguns" I think I'd like it enough to keep it around.