Deer tallow lube

[wvmtnman]

I have heard others talk of this as a lube but I was wondering how it is made.  I have rendered deer tallow before to put on mocs but with what do I mix it with and it what quantities, for it to be used as a patch lube?
                                                Thanks, Brian

[Seven]

I've been hearing a lot about it lately too.  I just made up some today.  I did a search on this site and found a few variations of mixers.  I finally went with olive oil and with a ratio suggested by Brown Bear.  I mixed two parts tallow with 1 part of olive oil and put them in an Altoids can to solidify.  I'll let you know in a few days how it works after I get a chance to shoot it.  So far I like it, it is very slippery and wets the patch nicely.  I put a wet patch in the freezer and after an hour it was still nice and flexible. 
-Chad

[northmn]

If it stays flexible after being in the refrigerator it should be good.  We had a lot of discussions over lubes a while back.  Two types, those that clean and let you shoot a lot which are usually wet and those like yours which make good hunting lubes and can be carried left in the gun and in the loading block or on patch material without drying out.  I used to like to keep prelubed patches on the bench at shooting matches.  Usually the grease lubes do not have the shot after shot characteristics of the wet types like #9+ but do keep the fouling soft enough to fire a few shots without cleaning.  Mostly they keep the patch from burning and the fouling soft.

DP

[R. Hare]

I've usede deer tallow on its own for maybe 12, or 14 years now.

The patches go awful stiff in cold weather,...(like -30 or so) but they still load easily, as the tallow is Very slick stuff.
Only thing I did wrong one time, was to fill my loading block when the patches were still warm and damp with the lube.
The patches glued themselves onto the ball, and some went nearly 100 yds before they came off!
As long as patches are allowed to cool before use, they don't stick to the ball any weather.
On a 40-shot trail walk, I only have to run a spit-patch down the .58 Getz barrel three or four times. to keep him loading easily.

For a gun that fouls a lot, I have not found a better lube on the planet, than "Udderly smooth"  A hand cream from many places inc. Wally world!
It's the Only lube for big-bore cartridge guns, like Snider-Enfields....(dipped just prior to firing)

Richard.

[William Worth]

Any remarks on lard as a patch lube or patch lube ingredient?

[Daryl]

Bear lard works well due to the high oil content. Unsalted comerical lard would be best. 

[Dphariss]

I've usede deer tallow on its own for maybe 12, or 14 years now.

The patches go awful stiff in cold weather,...(like -30 or so) but they still load easily, as the tallow is Very slick stuff.
Only thing I did wrong one time, was to fill my loading block when the patches were still warm and damp with the lube.
The patches glued themselves onto the ball, and some went nearly 100 yds before they came off!
As long as patches are allowed to cool before use, they don't stick to the ball any weather.
On a 40-shot trail walk, I only have to run a spit-patch down the .58 Getz barrel three or four times. to keep him loading easily.

For a gun that fouls a lot, I have not found a better lube on the planet, than "Udderly smooth"  A hand cream from many places inc. Wally world!
It's the Only lube for big-bore cartridge guns, like Snider-Enfields....(dipped just prior to firing)

Richard.

But does it contain water? Almost all this stuff does.

Dan

[jerrywh]

I use liquid hand soap and windshield washer solvent. 20% ww solvent , the kind with antifreeze in it.
 I can load all day without wiping and it easier as the day goes on. It will not freeze at -20 deg.

[Daryl]

Jerry- quite a number of our guys do similar - winshield washer fluid & soap of some sort for winter trail walks.  I prefer LHV in cold weatehr, of course, but for my, it doesn't do well in hot weather - spit then.

[Seven]

I used my concoction of 2 parts deer tallow to 1 part of olive oil yesterday.  Horrible results.  Left a lot of fouling and blew patches that normally don't blow (using LHV).  The patches I tested yesterday were .020 and .024, so shouldn't have blow if the lube was any good.  I'm not saying that it is a bad lube for everyone, just the batch that i made is no good for this particular rifle.  Maybe I'll try Jerry's windshield washer fluid recipe next.  -Chad

[T*O*F]

I used my concoction of 2 parts deer tallow to 1 part of olive oil yesterday.  Horrible results.  Left a lot of fouling

Chad,
Most people use way too much (oily) lube on their patches because they pre-lube/soak the patches in the lube.  The more the lube, the more the fouling.  Only the side of the patch that touches the barrel needs to be lubed.  Think tallow hole on a mountain rifle.  I did the deer tallow thing back around 96 and came up with this method.  Japan a couple of cap boxes or salve containers.  Put your lube into them.  To lube a patch, you need only thumb the patch on the lube to pick up enough for shooting.  Any fouling you get will be solely from the powder, not the lube residue.




I use 50/50 tallow and beeswax.  It is fairly hard.  After you have rendered your tallow at the lowest possible heat, pour it into a container of "lightly" boiling water.  Leave it there for about 15 minutes and stir it occasionally.  Then take it off and let it cool overnite.  Your tallow will be white with no impurities and fairly hard.  Melt it back with an equal amount of beeswax and pour into your japanned tins.  It works in all types of weather.

To japan a tin, burn all the paint off it with a propane torch.  Polish on a fine wire wheel.  Reheat until it just turns blue and wipe it all over with beeswax.  Once cool, polish it with a cloth.  It will not rust if done properly.

As a side note:  this mixture will not go rancid on you.  Mine sat open for several years until the mice found it.  Then I re-melted it and put it in a qt. jar.

[Seven]

Thanks TOF.  I used the same deer tallow that I use for candles and soap and then added some olive oil to it.  I heated them together and mixed them well and then put them into an Altoids can.  When lubing the patch I'd basically run them across the lube and get them gooshey and then wipe them off using the edge of the lid to get back down to the patch.  No extra lube on them.  The fouling was indeed soft, but there was a ton of it and it looked as though the lube was burning up and leaving a residue that I could see at the muzzle.  I should have taken pictures.  But all that aside I was burning up every patch that I tried with this lube.  I can handle fouling but burned up patches is a no go in my book.
But you just reminded me, I have some 50/50 beeswax tallow candles that have been sitting around for a couple of years.  Maybe I'll give them a try as a lube.  I think they might be a bit too stiff for winter loading here in VT, but probably worth a shot (pun intended).
-Chad

[Dphariss]

Thanks TOF.  I used the same deer tallow that I use for candles and soap and then added some olive oil to it.  I heated them together and mixed them well and then put them into an Altoids can.  When lubing the patch I'd basically run them across the lube and get them gooshey and then wipe them off using the edge of the lid to get back down to the patch.  No extra lube on them.  The fouling was indeed soft, but there was a ton of it and it looked as though the lube was burning up and leaving a residue that I could see at the muzzle.  I should have taken pictures.  But all that aside I was burning up every patch that I tried with this lube.  I can handle fouling but burned up patches is a no go in my book.
But you just reminded me, I have some 50/50 beeswax tallow candles that have been sitting around for a couple of years.  Maybe I'll give them a try as a lube.  I think they might be a bit too stiff for winter loading here in VT, but probably worth a shot (pun intended).
-Chad

If you must add oil, and it sounds like you will need some with the candles, I would add Neatsfoot OIL (no distillate added) npt "compound" rather than vegetable oil.
All such oils will tend to cook to a hard film if heated. Olive is one of the best but I still have trust issues.
Oiled patches will allow a longer string of shots than a grease will unless grease is very soft. Best grease I ever used was a mix of Sperm Whale oil and beeswax. I made it somewhat softer than the oil Sharps lube formula. It worked very well in my 50 cal.

Dan

[Daryl]

As to TOF's distain for 'wet' patches- it may be with grease, only one side needs to be lubed. With oils such as LHV or even spit, the wetter the better - no fouling buildup whatsoever.

[T*O*F]

As to TOF's distain for 'wet' patches

Darryl,
Distain is a verb, not an adjective.  It means to tinge with a different color from the natural or proper one; to stain; to discolor; to sully; to tarnish.  It's something we do to our gunstocks, not our patches.

That being said, I have no disdain for wet patches, just wet, oily patches.

it may be with grease, only one side needs to be lubed.

Which is probably why it was used historically instead of bore butter, windshield solvent, peroxide, transmission fluid, WD-40, and all that other $#@* that everyone thinks is the hottest stuff since safety pins.

With oils such as LHV or even spit, the wetter the better -

LHV ain't oil....neither is spit unless you've been sucking on seal blubber.  However, I agree with your statement otherwise.

no fouling buildup whatsoever.

Yadda...yadda...yadda.....we know.  You put it in everything you post.  Have you considered going into the Guiness Book of Records as the only guy in the world whose gun is not fouled by black powder?

Chuckles

[R. Hare]

DPhariss,

Sorry it's took so long to reply.

Yes, the 'Udderly smooth' has water in it, but that's why it cuts fowling like it does in a cartridge gun. (no blow-tubing, and can still see rifling after any amount of shots. It's hard to believe how well it works!

For a m/loader on a trail walk it's great!
No good for hunting though... bore would likely rust if left loaded.....and no, I don't own the company!

Cheers,

Richard.

[William Worth]

What's the difference between tallow and lard?   

I see lard as being store bought tallow.  Dirt cheap, widely available and probably much more pure then I would get it.

And in a pinch, you could eat it. 

[R. Hare]

William,

The deer tallow's just harder, and less liable to run in hot weather,  it's more like mutton tallow in consistency.
won't soak into your powder like regular lard will.... but I still put a small bit of wasp's nest atop powder for hunting, as double insurance.

Richard.

[T*O*F]

What's the difference between tallow and lard?

William,
In the strictest sense, tallow is made from beef fat and lard is made from hog fat.  We use the terms with other animal fats because we don't know what else to call em.

[Daryl]

TOF - you are A rather amusing individual - as to fouling, as always, I was referring to the buildup of fouling in the bore, which some fellows seem to be troubled with.  Of course, there is fouling in the bore after the shot- which is caused by some of the 56 or 57% of the residual fouling after firing off a shot, which as we've tried to explain over and over again, is wiped down when loading the next shot so there is no buildup from shot to shot. Actually, Ned Roberts spoke of this in The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle. We merely found out what lubes worked as he described - never looked back - never troubled with building fouling- it doens't happen if the ball and patch combo is correct - lubes range from spit to various concoctions.
 What we all cannot understand, is why some of you, obviously, yourself included, have to wipe between shots or even after 2, 5 , 10 or 20 shots due to a buildup of this fouling in the bore.   Our, and I'm probably speaking of at least the 150 people shoot at Hefley Creek  bores don't accumulate fouling.  A bore that does accumulate fouoling is either very rough with pits, etc, or is not being loaded so as to prevent continual loading.  Try it, you might like it instead of being stuck with fouling buildup.

Your statement about Guiness is interesting - I guess the 150 shooters on the line at the Hefley Rendezvous all need to apply as no one there has a problem with fouling buildup either - it just doesn't happen.  Since it is obvious this seems to be happening with your guns, you apparently to fail to 'grasp' what we've been attempting to explain - hense the continual repeating of our process of loading.  We do it in an attempt to help you understand that loading this way prevents the buildup of fouling to the point our guns appear not to foul.  We've shown and explained as best we can, even did a video some time ago with Taylor loading his rifle after probably 50 shots with easy loading, no hammering.   If you want to be blessed with fouing buildup - there is nothing else we can do.  Reminds me of a the horse and water limrick.
 Are you a member of the Flat Earth Society? - just curious.

[robert gene]

I use 1 part deer tallow to 4 parts hog lard. Shoots well with no wiping up to ten shots.( thats all I have shot before wiping but it was still loading easy.)
 I render the deer tallow over low heat, then pour through a paper coffee filter. It comes out pure white and as hard as candle wax. And does make good candles.
 I render the hog lard the same way.
 Heat and mix together with just a little bit of homemade soap, 1/4 tsp per pint.
 To me, tallow is in the wax family and lard is a grease.

[Roger Fisher]

TOF - you are A rather amusing individual - as to fouling, as always, I was referring to the buildup of fouling in the bore, which some fellows seem to be troubled with.  Of course, there is fouling in the bore after the shot- which is caused by some of the 56 or 57% of the residual fouling after firing off a shot, which as we've tried to explain over and over again, if wiped down when loading the next shot so there is no buildup. Actually, Ned Roberts spoke of this in The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle. We merely dound out what lubes worked as he described.
 What we all cannot understand, is why some of you, obviously, yourself included, have to wipe between shots or even after 2, 5 , 10 or 20 shots due to a buildup of this fouling in the bore.   Our, and I'm probably speaking of at least the 150 people shoot at Hefley Creek  bores don't accumulate fouling.  A bore that does accumulate fouoling is either very rouch with pits, etc, or is not being loaded so as to prevent continual loading. 

Your statement about Guiness is interesting - I guess the 150 shooters on the line at the Hefley Rendezvous all need to apply as no one there has a problem with fouling buildup either - it just doesn't happen.  Since it is obvious this seems to be happening with your guns, you apparently to fail to 'grasp' what we've been attempting to explain - hense the continual repeating of our process of loading.  We do it in an attempt to help you understand that loading this way prevents the buildup of fouling to the point our guns appear not to foul.  We've shown and explained as best we can, even did a video some time ago with Taylor loading his rifle after probably 50 shots with easy loading, no hammering.   If you want to be blessed with fouing buildup - there is nothing else we can do.  Reminds me of a the horse and water limrick.
 Are you a member of the Flat Earth Society? - just curious.

Ned Roberts quoted an ol Dutchman as follows:"With good clean moist burning powder it is unneccesary to wipe, or clean, after each shot - The Dutchman says: Ven der negst vun you loadts, der last vun gedts viped"!

Then he turns around and states when shooting at a mark or target shooting,the accuracy is generally much improved by wiping the bore with a slightly wet cloth followed by a dry one after each shot!!!   So, on it goes.  I say different strokes for different folks.   (I do the shoot all day thing w/o wiping.  Jury still out on my log gun).


Ol Ned also recommends blowing down the muzzle after each shot. I don't want to stir this one up again so I won't comment further cept to say we don't do that around here

[Daryl]

You're right, Roger.  If somsone wants to wipe - by all means do it - that's different - what I don't 'get' is that some people have to.

[Long John]

I have some observations on this matter that youmight be interested in.

When we shoot black powder 1/2 of the combustion product gas is water, H₂0, in the gas phase.  Some of that water stays with the solid components of the fouling for a short period of time after the shot depending upon the temperature of the barrel, of the surrounding air and the relative humidity.  Thus teh fouling is soft.  As that moisture leaves the fouling within the bore it becomes much more solid and results in harder loading.

Some patch lubes are based upon the dissolving the fouling from the previous shot. If you use a patch that is sufficiently wet with such a solvent then the patch "lube" disolves the fouling into the patch and this minimizes the accumulation of fouling.  The problem is that such a lube is often not suitable for hunting because the solvent flows into the powder, changing your charge.  This matter can be solved by using one lube for target practice and a differnet one for hunting but some rifles don't like this business of changing lubes.

Other "lubes" rely on the lubricating effect of the lube itself.  The greases fall into this category.  It has been my experience that the addition of a wax, like bees wax makes a profound improvement in the ability of such a lube to allow loading after one or more shots.  I have never figured out why!  I just learned through the trial and error process that adding wax to the bear grease improved it immensely.  Bear grease without some wax always resulted in hard loading for me after a couple of shots.  At 1 part bees wax to 3 parts bear grease and it is entirely different.

Finally, I have learned that some times, especially when the humidity is really dry that I have to lay my patch on my tongue to moisten it with some saliva if I wan to load another round.  the salive is mostly water and the water is dissolving the fouling in the bore just like any other solvent-based lube.  My rifle doesn't mind a moistened patch and shoots the same either way.  Lucky me!

I found that when I added the necessary wax to the deer tallow it was too stiff.  The bear grease at room temperature flows, like New england Clam chowder with out the chunks of stuff in it.  Bear grease needs some thickening and the bees wax does this well.  Deer tallow is hard at room temperature.  The beeswax makes it harder yet and I was never able to get it to perform the way my bees wax/ bear grease lube does in my rifles.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[Daryl]

Interesting, John. Taylor just did a recent load longevity/rust test of LHV (LehighValley Lube, leaving a section of barrel loaded for 5 days 'out in the elments'.  At the end of the 5 days, he pulled the breech plug and load. He found very small amount of powder stuck to the patch beneath the ball, but the rest flowed out as normal dry powder.  Taylor always loads a sopping wet patch whether it's LHV of Spit lubed.  This leads me to believe my previous use of a thin card wad or felt wad or sometimes an extra, dry patch between the powder and lubricated patched ball when hunting is pretty much a waste of time.