sliding thumb safety

[Phillip Smith]

I most recently have been reading the exchange on triggers and locks.

To bring up another part of locks that I have been studying, but have found there are limited explanations and photos explaining, is the sliding thumb safety. Staying with historical examples what types and experience has anyone had with the sliding thumb safety?   

[Dave B]

Philip Welcome to the forum. The sliding safety you are talking about is mounted on the side of the lock plate closest to the tail of the lock. You can see how this works on the thread about building dueling pistols http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=20107.15  not much application on golden age long rifles, the feature may be found on european pieces,  in the late 1780's to mid 1800's. I have seen them on pistols as well as long guns of english make

[Phillip Smith]

Thanks for your comment and link Dave. I should have been more specific. I am looking at 1680-1740 English Fowler's. The earliest examples that I have noted are around 1720. I have seen examples of safetys engaging the tumbler as noted on the Manton lock but I understand there is a form that engages the cock itself and not the tumbler but I haven't had the opportunity to see these areas behind the cock just thought someone out there might have.

[JDK]

It sounds like you are referring to a doglock.  It doesn't slide but swings/pivots to engage the cock.  See this link: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=13467.0

A search by "doglock" will reveal more.  J.D.K.

[Bob Roller]

About 35 years ago I repaired a lock that had been Perverted from flint to percussion and it had a  sliding safety that engaged both the tumbler and the hammer. In the back of  the hammer was a slot that locked into the hammer at the same time the internal part engaged the tumbler. When the safety was slid back,it released the tumbler and the part that engaged the hammer moved back into a circular area that allowed the hammer to rotate to full cock and then fire the gun. This is about as close to a positive safety as will ever be found on an operational gun lock. The "safety" of today's locks,mine included are designed to withstand the torque of the mainspring and hopefully become a noticeable impairment to firing the lock from "half cock". The old term "going off half cocked" originated with the defective or forced to fire lock.
Right after I joined this forum,I noticed a posting about someone  testing a double set trigger against a half cocked lock. That kind of trigger test can be done with the hammer at rest without endangering a sometimes fragile
part of the lock.
Getting back to sliding safeties,later high quality English caplocks sometimes had one forward of the hammer that had the slot and semi circle on the back of the hammer that engaged the projecting part that was out of sight behind the hammer. In England,the "Patent Mania" and work with gunlocks turned up some novel ideas such as Manton's gravity activated safeties that allowed loading at full cock while the self priming locks had the frizzens closed. The idea was to be able to level the gun and the gravity operated safties would fall away and the gun at least in theory would be fireable.
Hope this doesn't muddy the waters too much.

Bob Roller

[The other DWS]

Some of the smaller "pocket" pistols had a sliding safety that locked both the hammer and a small extension pin that went through the fence and pinned the frizzen closed. I have see this on small "queen anne" box lock pistols and also on larger sidelock pocket pistols as well

  Years age I owned (WAY too briefly--in hindsight) one of the later type with a folding under the barrel bayonet.  At the time is was into F&I and RevWar reenaction and since it was "too late" and I was not sure if it was original or repro, I traded it off (WAY to cheaply)  I've wondered ever since which it was.  I've seen a lot of repros since then, but never one like that

[Phillip Smith]

In the back of the hammer was a slot that locked into the hammer at the same time the internal part engaged the tumbler. When the safety was slid back,it released the tumbler and the part that engaged the hammer moved back into a circular area that allowed the hammer to rotate to full cock and then fire the gun. Bob Roller

Thankyou for your comment. This is the kind of information I was trying to learn about. That is interesting that you saw one that engages both the tumbler and the hammer. What time period was this piece? Does anyone have anything along these lines. Thanks

[Jim Kibler]

Hi Phillip.  Nice to see you posting here.  Not too long ago I remembered seeing a sliding safety on a pretty early gun.  I looked through some books and found what I had remembered. On page 268 of "Great British Gunmakers 1540-1740"  Neal shows photos of a pair of pistols by Nicholas Paris that have sliding safteys on the locks.  Neal puts a date of 1690 on these pistols.  To me that seems a touch early.  I was thinking something like 1695-1700, but it could be earlier as well.  Regardless, I was suprised to see the sliding safety feature this early.  I find it hard to believe a provincial maker such as Paris would have developed this system though.  I would think it either developed in Paris or London sometime prior to these pistols being made.  Is anybody else aware of any earlier examples?  I'll keep looking.

Jim

[Phillip Smith]

Thankyou Jim for your comments. What I have noticed in G.B.G. 1540-1740 is assuming dates can be off a little Neal mentions this safety set high on the Paris gun, again multiple times on guns by Biget and Hutchinson dates ranging from 1705-1718 and a Francis Smart gun dated 1715. It is not until the broader safety's of Robert Rowland and Henry Delany(dates aside) that he starts to reference them engaging the cock. So through this maybe we could closer track the origins and what they actually look like behind the cock and plate.

[Bob Roller]

No idea as to the time frame or makers name.
I think it was probably a nice lock but other than the double functioning safety the rest is lost to memeory. I am not even sure as to the type of repair it was.Memory is the second thing to go and I don't remember the first one.

Bob Roller