Author Topic: The Moll-Newhard-Kuntz Triangle of Old Northampton County Gunmaking  (Read 71746 times)

Randy_R

  • Guest
Re: The Moll-Newhard-Kuntz Triangle of Old Northampton County Gunmaking
« Reply #125 on: June 10, 2012, 07:47:08 AM »
Bob, I do not feel a need to propose anything.  I am content to state that currently Johannes Moll's origins are unknown, and any more is speculation.  I don't have a problem with a loose end, regardless of how long it may remain loose.  My biggest problem with the armada of internet genealogists, in fact, is their seemingly homogenous need to tie up all loose ends regardless of documentation or - more appropriately - lack thereof.  I am not accusing you of this at all however I am certain you will take it personally as you always seem to do.  I'd like to compliment you highly re: the Neihardt work you have proffered.  It seems quite well-considered and documented, and when I have a chance to read through it all I anticipate updating the portions of my own website which deal with Peter Neihardt.  I am not focused on genealogy but at the same time I do wish for the bit of historical background info I put "out there" to be accurate.  I will certainly credit you for it.  I simply do not understand your apparent eagerness to jump on the William Moll bandwagon when there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back up that particular storyline.  It has been fairly extensively proven by now (not only by myself and my own targeted research but also via the work of others in unrelated areas) that most - if not all - of the late 19th century "Histories" are highly unreliable and sorely lacking in documentation.  Furthermore, the mysterious William Moll "tool" monogram and date is (1) quite vague in and of itself, and (2) falls squarely into a period that is well-reecognized amongst collectors and researchers as being the birth of a pseudo-documented genealogy movement in America, a period when everyone and his brother had some old relic or another of a family's grand history.  No, this does not automatically disqualify it, but it has to render it highly suspect at the least and the complete - COMPLETE - lack of any other evidence that a man named William Moll even existed has to call the whole brief story into considerably more than serious question.

So my proposal is, "I don't currently know, and I don't care to put something entirely questionable into hard copy where it will be subsequently interpreted (wrongly or not) as fact."

I am new to the forum scene, but in my personal opinion William H. Moll does exist and that him and his father worked together as gunsmiths...I have a Pennsylvania Long Rifle that has "J and W.H. Moll Allentown PA 1400" stamped on top of the barrel...From research I have done the father and son made rifles between 1838-1844...this is a quality made firearm that still fuctions as it should...I have fired it and it shoots extremely well for its age...I would appreciate any help someone might be able to give me on what the 1400 represents...I am going to try to get some pics taken of the rifle incase anyone would like to see it...especially of the barrel address...
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 08:06:47 PM by rich pierce »

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1314
Re: The Moll-Newhard-Kuntz Triangle of Old Northampton County Gunmaking
« Reply #126 on: June 10, 2012, 01:23:08 PM »
Welcome, Randy!

It's the earlier William Moll (1710-1780, according to Bob Smalser's chart) about whom Eric K. is dubious.

I don't think anybody is doubting the existence of John Moll III and William Henry Moll.

Maybe somebody on the list can help with the "1400"--and I am sure that posting pictures of it would be very welcome!
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 01:23:59 PM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Randy_R

  • Guest
Re: The Moll-Newhard-Kuntz Triangle of Old Northampton County Gunmaking
« Reply #127 on: June 15, 2012, 10:37:47 PM »
sorry i took so long to get back been very busy it goes without saying that record keeping that far back was without a boubt very primitive and ship records i would think were not 100% accurate seems to me that a son would know what his fathers name was and i dont see what benefit there would be to making up a ficticious name anyway. i have tried to make sense out of all these different opions on this site but it is very hard to follow and keep up with i have personally found that the older generations of people are a lot more truthful then the newer generations as far as making up stories about things that there are nothing to these people lived when a hand shake was as good or better then anything that is legally documented this day and time the initials on the rifle i have j& wh moll had to come from some where seems awful unusal that it is agreed that there was a later william moll but few believe that there may have actually been an earlier william moll i personally believe there was and hopefully one day i can find research proving it sometimes we have to go with our gut instinct. just my opinion

Randy_R

  • Guest
Re: The Moll-Newhard-Kuntz Triangle of Old Northampton County Gunmaking
« Reply #128 on: June 16, 2012, 05:14:23 AM »
I am trying to post pics of my J & W.H. Moll rifle on here, but cant figure out how to do it...does any one know how???


Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4266
Re: The Moll-Newhard-Kuntz Triangle of Old Northampton County Gunmaking
« Reply #129 on: June 16, 2012, 02:56:16 PM »
sorry i took so long to get back been very busy it goes without saying that record keeping that far back was without a boubt very primitive and ship records i would think were not 100% accurate seems to me that a son would know what his fathers name was and i dont see what benefit there would be to making up a ficticious name anyway. i have tried to make sense out of all these different opions on this site but it is very hard to follow and keep up with i have personally found that the older generations of people are a lot more truthful then the newer generations as far as making up stories about things that there are nothing to these people lived when a hand shake was as good or better then anything that is legally documented this day and time the initials on the rifle i have j& wh moll had to come from some where seems awful unusal that it is agreed that there was a later william moll but few believe that there may have actually been an earlier william moll i personally believe there was and hopefully one day i can find research proving it sometimes we have to go with our gut instinct. just my opinion


Huh?  ???

John
John Robbins

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: The Moll-Newhard-Kuntz Triangle of Old Northampton County Gunmaking
« Reply #130 on: June 16, 2012, 03:15:25 PM »
Go to the very beginning and refer to the chart:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=21620.msg205540#msg205540

There is an early Wm Moll, and a later WH Moll.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6538
  • I Like this hat!!
Re: The Moll-Newhard-Kuntz Triangle of Old Northampton County Gunmaking
« Reply #131 on: June 16, 2012, 03:37:11 PM »
I am trying to post pics of my J & W.H. Moll rifle on here, but cant figure out how to do it...does any one know how???



http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10.0
De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming