Author Topic: Southern rifle ideas? (Read 17612 times)

cmac · « **on:** June 18, 2012, 07:24:11 PM »

I have a curly ash board that I'm planning on using for a southern rifle. I have a Rice Southern Classic 45 cal. barrel and a large Siler lock. Ideas, pictures, etc. would be greatly appreciated to help the planning stage along

Bill of the 45th · « **Reply #1 on:** June 18, 2012, 07:44:00 PM »

That large Siler is generally the wrong style of lock for just about any Southern Gun. A Late Ketland or any English style hardware lock is a better choice. I'm currently working on a curry ash 1810ish .58, using a Late English L&R lock. Ash can be a pain to work with, and is heavier than maple. For reference material I would recommend Jerry Noble's four volumes on southern rifles. You can get them by calling Jerry at309-582-2852. A good starter ref. is Dave Byrd's "Gunmakers of Buffalo Valley & Greasy Cove" which just came out, and it's less than $20 with lot's of pic's, and dimensions. Dave's number is 423-735-7869. Good luck on the build.

Bill

cmac · « **Reply #2 on:** June 18, 2012, 08:13:57 PM »

I was thinking a large siler being an earlier lock could be used on a later rifle and could be reshaped some as well.... A late lock doesn't work on a early rifle but if a maker had a early lock on hand it would have been used

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #3 on:** June 18, 2012, 08:23:42 PM »

I think Bill's point is not early vs. late, but English vs. Germanic. Original Southern guns with Germanic locks are a rarity, and alway draw questions as to if the lock is original to the gun. Rendering the Germanic out of a large Siler to make it more English is hardly worth the effort, considering proper style locks are readily available.

Hungry Horse

Dr. Tim-Boone · « **Reply #4 on:** June 18, 2012, 09:27:39 PM »

I agree with Bill and HH. An English lock would be best... then you could do a number of different things.

an old post you might find interesting http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=11026.0

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #5 on:** June 18, 2012, 09:47:29 PM »

Quote

I have a Rice Southern Classic 45 cal. barrel and a large Siler lock.

Please don't use the large Siler, nothing sticks out any more than a Germanic Siler type lock on a true southern rifle. Yes you can re-work it to some degree but its a major job and so much easier to just sell Siler and buy an English style lock or see if anyone has one to trade.
Dennis

Bill of the 45th · « **Reply #6 on:** June 19, 2012, 12:34:49 AM »

That's what I was implying, simply there are no known southern mountain rifles with Germanic locks on them. We are all waiting for a documented one. that said, I would post your lock for a trade, or sale, and go from their. I have a Davis late english with the square back I would even consider trading though I already have two large Siler's. The Gunsmiths of Virginia, the Carolina's, Appalachia, and Tennessee, were mostly of Scotch, Irish, and English ancestry, and very nationalistic, and would sooner throw a german lock in the scrap heap, or crucible than use it on a gun of theirs.

Bill

Nate McKenzie · « **Reply #7 on:** June 19, 2012, 06:21:43 AM »

Check out the Chambers Late Ketland lock. They don't come much better.

Don Tripp · « **Reply #8 on:** June 19, 2012, 06:52:45 AM »

It's good advise regarding the English lock and there is a good selection available as long as you are building a right handed gun. If you're left handed then your options are more limited and reworking the Siler may be the best or only option for an earlier rifle (Revolutionary War or earlier). There's L&R's Durs Egg and Late English for a later rifle. I've heard that Caywood's Wilson lock is (or was) available in a left handed version but their website doesn't list it. They do list their Northwest and English Fowler Lock in left handed versions. Even if you are building a right handed gun, I don't see anything wrong with reworking a Siler if that's what you want to do. English Locks were used in the south because that is what was available and if they made the lock, it just makes sense that they would make it in the English style because that is what they were familiar with. That is not to say that a well functioning German lock would have been rejected or melted down simply because of it's Germanic styling. That would seem impractical to me, and these were practical people.

Vomitus · « **Reply #9 on:** June 19, 2012, 08:03:30 AM »

Quote from: Nate McKenzie on June 19, 2012, 06:21:43 AM

Check out the Chambers Late Ketland lock. They don't come much better.

Ditto

Bob Roller · « **Reply #10 on:** June 19, 2012, 02:37:17 PM »

Recently,I made a left hand lock on the L&R Durs Egg external parts for a man in Michigan with a bench crafted mechanism and forged main and sear springs. By American muzzle loading standards,this lock is expensive at $222. That is $72(my cost)for parts+$150 for the labor to make and detail the internal parts that ARE the actual lock.
I have made a number of locks on the L&R external parts,most were right hand and 3 or 4 on the Jim Chambers late Ketland and probably 20 using the Davis Twigg lock external parts.10 of these were $300 each.
Most of the L&R based locks went to Germany and I have more to do for that market if I can get to it.

Bob Roller

cmac · « **Reply #11 on:** June 19, 2012, 08:45:10 PM »

Thanks for the advice everyone. I have a early Ketland lock as well, but I don't believe I've seen them used on Southern rifles. Any photos would also be of great help for the stock work and hardware. I have some steel castings but prefer to forge the mounts for this project. I have several patterns as well but would like to see as many examples as possible... I have the RCA books

JoeG · « **Reply #12 on:** June 19, 2012, 09:22:50 PM »

with alot of file work you can make your siler look like this one that Ron Paul reworked

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #13 on:** June 19, 2012, 09:29:20 PM »

Quote from: cmac on June 19, 2012, 08:45:10 PM

Thanks for the advice everyone. I have a early Ketland lock as well, but I don't believe I've seen them used on Southern rifles. Any photos would also be of great help for the stock work and hardware. I have some steel castings but prefer to forge the mounts for this project. I have several patterns as well but would like to see as many examples as possible... I have the RCA books

If you have the RCA books look at #124 which is believed to be a Virginia Valley gun. It has a beautiful early Ketland lock on it.
Dennis

Bob Roller · « **Reply #14 on:** June 19, 2012, 10:27:37 PM »

With a minimum of filing,my small Ketland can be made to look like that one.

Bob Roller

HardBall · « **Reply #15 on:** June 20, 2012, 04:25:45 AM »

I've been following this thread since I'm in the "planning" stages of planning a southern or Tennessee style rifle and trying to figure out this lock thing. Pecatonica lists an L&R Durs Egg flint with their Southern rifle. Are either the Ketland or L&R locks appropriate?

If I start wanting to specify a particular style lock does that necessarily mean I'd have to do the full inletting for the lock?

rich pierce · « **Reply #16 on:** June 20, 2012, 06:04:51 AM »

The Durs Egg is about a 1780'S-1790'S style. Most of the guns folks commonly call "Southern rifles", especially iron mounted guns, are later than that. One can always make as story up about a leftover lock, etc but its not hard to go with locks of the period and style common to the type of rifle one is trying to make.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #17 on:** June 20, 2012, 03:19:56 PM »

Wasn't Durs Egg an Englishman that learned his trade of lock making in Switzerland? If that is so,the chances of him furnishing locks to anyone other than Europeans would not be great. The few antique Southern rifles I have examined had small Ketlands with either a double throated cock or a gooseneck type. I also saw one really primitive rifle with an antique Maslin marked flint lock. This one was done with either a small hand axe or a draw knife and was walnut.
If anyone has better info on Durs Egg,please post it beause I am relying on a sketchy memory of something I read.

Bob Roller

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #18 on:** June 20, 2012, 03:47:30 PM »

Quote

Pecatonica lists an L&R Durs Egg flint with their Southern rifle. Are either the Ketland or L&R locks appropriate?

If I start wanting to specify a particular style lock does that necessarily mean I'd have to do the full inletting for the lock?

I personally have never seen a Durs Egg on a southern mountain rifle but I used one years ago and it was a great lock. One of the few L&R locks that work well for me (understand the new ones are good). L&R has several English style locks that would look good on a southern rifle, the Ashmore, the late English, in percussion the Hawkin locks are good. Davis has several the Goulcher, the trade gun lock, the contract lock (I am building a VA rifle with one of these now).

My favorite flint is the Chambers late Ketland either as made or rounding the tail of the lock. If you want percussion the Chambers Mountain percussion is good. Also the Chambers round faced Colonial lock, the early Ketland for earlier southern rifles.
Dennis

JoeG · « **Reply #19 on:** June 20, 2012, 05:21:23 PM »

An advantage to reshaping that Large Siler is that the L&R double throated cock fits the the large Siler tumbler and the works great

that would give you an unique looking lock

54ball · « **Reply #20 on:** June 21, 2012, 08:34:33 AM »

RCA 114, the Free Born Rifle has an I Daykin Lock which was in the early Ketland style. This is a possible Virginia made rifle.

JCKelly · « **Reply #21 on:** June 22, 2012, 03:59:27 AM »

That Man in Michigan is quite happy with his Roller/Durs Egg lock

cmac · « **Reply #22 on:** June 24, 2012, 10:22:36 PM »

I have the Rice southern classic barrel inletted and the ram rod channel/hole done. The stock only allows about 2 1/4" drop and there isn't any room for a heavy cresent butt plate if the LOP is 13 1/2". This build is open for change as I am building it to sell. I am considering a North Carolina style poor boy or a Lancaster barn gun with no butt plate. The curly ash isn't hard enough for a lot of detailed carving anyway. I think the barrel would be fine on a Lancaster rifle. I have the siler lock and an early Ketland, others I will have to buy when the plan is complete.

Just need to decide before I proceed any further with the build. Any thoughts?

rich pierce · « **Reply #23 on:** June 25, 2012, 12:37:12 AM »

The Siler is good for a 1770's-1790's Lancaster rifle, early Ketland could go earlier; fine for an early Southern rifle, but if you plan a narrow buttstocked Southern rifle with a crescent buttplate, either lock is earlier than those styles.

Militant_Hillbilly · « **Reply #24 on:** June 25, 2012, 03:15:51 AM »

Are you going to use a patchbox or a grease hole?

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Author Topic: Southern rifle ideas? (Read 17612 times)

Don Tripp

Vomitus

JoeG

HardBall

JoeG

54ball

Militant_Hillbilly