Author Topic: Muzzle Blast-updated  (Read 28665 times)

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Muzzle Blast-updated
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2009, 10:28:22 PM »
You can do the stake shoot without the element of speed involved.  Just do it by volleys until a stake topples over.  I have never been involved in a speed shoot since that day.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Muzzle Blast-updated
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2009, 10:48:58 PM »
You can do the stake shoot without the element of speed involved.  Just do it by volleys until a stake topples over.  I have never been involved in a speed shoot since that day.
Good idea and warn them about no #%^*&@ double ballin! ::)

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Muzzle Blast-updated
« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2009, 12:52:20 AM »
Roger, just like every other aspect of this past-time, if it's done right, there is no problem.  If and when you double ball, you have to hold the ball on the powder making absolutely sure that no air forces the second one up off the first.  Then all is good. 
I was invloved in a stake cut once when I lived in Squamish BC about a hundred years ago.  I had a percussion Hawken of my own making, in .62 cal.  the 2 x 4 was edge on so we were looking at 1 1/2" of wood at about thirty yards.  I double balled my rifle, and on the "go" command, I cut the stake off cleanly with just the one shot.  Both balls hit the board side x side - none of the rest of the team got to fire.
We don't do that sort of shooting anymore.  All our matches require only one ball at a time, fired accurately.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Daryl

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Re: Muzzle Blast-updated
« Reply #53 on: September 15, 2009, 05:12:58 PM »
I might add that Shane developed a bit of a flinch, after that episode, normal, under the circumstances.

leadslinger62

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Re: Muzzle Blast-updated
« Reply #54 on: September 16, 2009, 05:40:04 AM »
    This would surely end the " Can`t happen to me !" syndrome. I short started a Lyman Great Plains, which resulted in a Barrel bulge,  which resulted in the purchase of a new barrel!! Definite eye opener. My Uncle has been warning us for years about the use of short starters fo years. Guess it is time to listen.......

Offline satwel

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Re: Muzzle Blast-updated
« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2009, 06:01:24 PM »
Thank you for sharing this information. It sure is a wake up call. It's easy to become complacent after we've been shooting these things for years. I'm glad no one was hurt.
I think the two ball theory explains the split barrel. In 30 years of shooting flintlocks I have fired a short started ball twice. A muffled report and a ball that hit the dust at the base of the target frame were the only results. No damage at all to either barrel. IMHO, the vent on a flintlock acts as a safety valve if there is only one ball short started out by the muzzle.

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Muzzle Blast-updated
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2009, 06:09:02 PM »
    This would surely end the " Can`t happen to me !" syndrome. I short started a Lyman Great Plains, which resulted in a Barrel bulge,  which resulted in the purchase of a new barrel!! Definite eye opener. My Uncle has been warning us for years about the use of short starters fo years. Guess it is time to listen.......
Again a longer short starter that gets the tightly patched ball deeper than the frt sight and upper tennon dovetails is also a good failsafe on this question.  The folks that cone the muzzle can do away with said short starters. Without the cone I can see the rifling at the muzzle getting battered and screwed up by a shooter repeatedly yakering around and wallowing around with the ramrod to get her started...Of course a loose ball and patch combo would help if you don't care about accurate shooting and setting the bush on fire ;) ::) ;D

Jim Thomas

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Re: Muzzle Blast-updated
« Reply #57 on: September 16, 2009, 06:21:11 PM »
Probably a good habit to get into would be to leave the short starter in the barrel indicating that the ramrod had not been used.   Painted orange or something highly noticeable to boot.     






Daryl

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Re: Muzzle Blast-updated
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2009, 06:32:22 PM »
Probably a good habit to get into would be to leave the short starter in the barrel indicating that the ramrod had not been used.   Painted orange or something highly noticeable to boot.     
\

I do exactly this, Jim, leaving the starter in the bore until I'm ready to push the load down - especially when someone is talking to me, or I'm talking to someone while loading.  I would most heartdly hope that everyone would stop using short starters and go to loose ball/patch combinations that don't need starters.  That will free up the winner's circle for sure. ;D

BTW- At Rondy, we had 5 gallon pails of water about every 3 shooting stations, along with a cup for dousing burning patches, due to the 8% humidity and extreme fire conditions.  The ground/grass was tinder dry and actually crunched when walking.  Several times while on the firing line, "cease fires", were called so guys could walk out and extinguish smoldering patches.

 When walking up to change targets for the Alberta bullseye match, I looked for people's patches and noticed many burnt crisps and shreds of patches on the ground - those of mine I spotted and picked up (easy to distinguish 1 5/8" patches of .030" denim), were still damp and quite re-usable if re-wet. You cannot load a combination like that without a short starter.  Roger's note about making certain the short started ball is below the sight and wedge dovetails is a good one.

Offline shortbarrel

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Re: Muzzle Blast-updated
« Reply #59 on: June 27, 2013, 12:55:13 AM »
tom: how deep was the dovetail cut in this part of the barrel.

Offline Kermit

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Re: Muzzle Blast-updated
« Reply #60 on: June 27, 2013, 06:12:41 PM »
That does it. I have one barrel not yet coned, an A-wt .40. I'm doing it TODAY. Just hadn't got to it.

Actually there is another that isn't coned, but it's a .25 with lots of steel in it, and loads are 18 gr of FFFg. Even then, distractions are the enemy.

Think it over, folks. I've shot at various ranges and clubs, and one in particular seemed to have evolved a club culture of humor and grab-a$$ at the firing line. I didn't like it--I didn't feel like I was in control.

And GET THIS STRAIGHT. It is total BS that you can effectively MULTI-TASK. Research shows you can't. At least not effectively. Distractions hurt performance, driving or whatever. Even listening to the radio while driving will reduce your effective focus. Even talking with a passenger will contribute an element of distraction. And kids in the back seat? You bet. Some will argue that it doesn't affect THEM, but put them in a controlled research situation, and it bloody well will.

I don't want the cardiac surgeon playing scrabble with the anesthetist while doing a triple-bypass on me.

"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

zimmerstutzen

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Re: Muzzle Blast-updated
« Reply #61 on: June 28, 2013, 11:20:16 PM »
Kermit, check the photos again.  Look at the muzzle and study how big the bore is and the minimal barrel wall thickness.  

Then go back to the pictures of the ruptured barrel and note how deep the sight dovetail was.  In addition, note how little barrel wall thickness there was at the bottom of the dovetail
Another strange thing is why the front sight was back that far on a SWAMPED barrel.  

IMO, if the rear sight  dovetail was also cut that deep, the gun itself was an accident waiting to happen.

I have one of those 50 caliber 7/8 barrels that Dixie sold years ago.  I refused to cut sight or tennon dovetails in it for the reasons exhibited on the ruptured barrel.  rather than cut dovetails, I installed sights and tennons with silver bearing solder.  

I have two original guns from the 18th century.  the dovetails for the sights are barely scratched on the barrel flat.   Perhaps 3/64ths deep, but certainly not as much as a 16th.

Go ahead and cone if you wish, but the gun in the pictures had other issues that were just waiting for short starting to expose that weakness.  

« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 11:25:23 PM by zimmerstutzen »

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Muzzle Blast-updated
« Reply #62 on: June 30, 2013, 03:55:40 AM »
Comments.
Acer S. - would you mind telling us who was the barrel maker?

Some of you know I have rather strong opinions on barrel steel. Got to see a swamped barrel of heat treated 4140L, good steel, about what I would like. It was short started & split right apart. For the Mech.Engrs. in the group, there is a formula which CONSERVATIVELY estimates the pressures required to do this. For the steel in question this would have been something upwards of 60,000psi. No steel from which one can reasonably make a barrel will survive that

Roger Fisher - All steel today is "cast steel", by the 18th century definition. When you see CAST STEEL stamped on your axe or Allen pepperbox barrel it does not mean that part was a casting. it means it was steel made by melting bars of blister steel (carburized wrought iron) and casting it into a mold. The resultant ingot was forged and/or rolled out into bar for further work.

Sat Well - I've wondered if there might be some advantage to the flint vent, vs the more sortofsealed breech in a caplock. Nevertheless, Indians hunting buffalo on horseback, spitting the ball down the barrel of their flint trade gun were known to suffer some unpleasant burst barrels.

Did Acer S. say? Bet his is flint.

SleepyHillBarrels

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Re: Muzzle Blast-updated
« Reply #63 on: July 11, 2013, 07:47:52 AM »
 I have looked at this picture several times and have come to one conclusion this is
the bar that Bob Roller ordered to make into gun screws cant figure out how it got
turned into a pipe bomb. just luck I guess kind of gives you a worm feeling thinking
about it when you are in a tree stand 2 miles from your truck while hunting alone.
kind of gives a man the feeling he mite need to look into becoming a vegetarian or
at least take a few classes in EMT.
have a nice day ::) jim mc lemore

Offline Kermit

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Re: Muzzle Blast-updated
« Reply #64 on: July 11, 2013, 05:19:38 PM »
Kermit, check the photos again.

Spend hours staring at those photos, and the take-away is still mostly about distractions, IMHO.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Muzzle Blast-updated
« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2013, 05:37:49 PM »
Many years ago we did some barrel blow ups.    We tried loading a normal powder charge and short started the ball, after
several shots like this we were unable to blow the barrel.   However,  the only way we could recreate a blown muzzle such
as you have shown was to load the barrel normally, powder then seated a ball down on the it, followd by a short started ball.
With this situation it would bulge or blow the barrel at that ball.  Funny thing, over the years we have replaced barrel that
had the muzzle end of the barrel split or blown off, and the guy was sure that he had seated the ball.........Don