Newbie -Does HC fore stock follow contour of swamped barrel?

[2veeps]

Have put together rifle using precarved stock with straight barrel, but next project will involve swamped barrel. Have looked in archives, but cannot find a thread on whether the forestock follows the contour of the barrel or if it remains straight. On a straight barrel, I could round the top of the forestock its entire length to blend into the sides of the barrel.  If the forestock remains straight, how does this work with a swamped barrel?

-Veep

[E.vonAschwege]

That's a good question and the same question I had when I first started building flintlocks.  The forstock should follow the contour of the barrel, figuring roughly 3/32 to 1/8" of wood on either side. 
-Eric

[Mark Elliott]

The forearm follows the exterior of the barrel.    The ramrod groove and hole should follow the bore.    The forearm should be between 1/16"-1/8" thick.    I was taught to scribe at 3/32" from the barrel, saw to the outside of that line and then just smooth up the forearm.    Worry about the cross sectional profile, but not the exact thickness of the forearm at any point.  VA rifles tend to be the same thickness from the lock panels to the muzzle.  PA rifles tend to be a little thicker in the lower forearm.   In either case,  you scribe a line relative to the side of the barrel so that the sides of the forearm follow the profile of the barrel.   Typically,   there is a very slight taper in the lower line of the lower forearm from the front extension of the trigger guard to the rear entry hole.   Leave about 1/16" of wood below the ramrod hole for the tang of the rear thimble.  The lower line of the upper forearm will be roughly straight.   Although, it may taper slightly from the muzzle to the rear entry hole if your ramrod is tapered.   I taper all my ramrods from about 3/8" at the front thimble to about 5/16" at the end of the ramrod including the rear thimble.    

As a general rule,  you stock around your parts.  You start with the barrel, and then place the lock relative to the touch hole.    The triggers are inlet relative to the sear bar in the lock.  The trigger guard is inlet relative to the triggers.   The butt piece is inlet relative to the barrel center line(cast off/on), the top flat of the barrel (drop), and the front trigger(pull).   The ramrod groove and hole is cut/drilled relative to the bottom of the barrel at the muzzle.   I start with a web of 5/32 at the muzzle, but this can be between 1/8" and 3/16".    The thimbles are then inlet relative to the ramrod groove/hole.    You then cut away all the wood around these things until you have something that looks like a gun.   Some people really to inlet all these things and then start shaping the stock, but most of us do a little here and a little there as we inlet these parts.   It helps inletting the butt piece to hack off as much unnecessary wood with a draw knife or hatchet first.   Of course you do need to have a good idea what you don't need first.   This is where a pencil and eraser come in handy.   You layout all the parts (must have them all( or most of them)  before you start stocking)  on the stock and draw all the profile lines as a reference.  You will probably have to draw them a couple of times as you cut away wood.  

You will start out with about 20lbs of wood and end up with about 2lbs.   Just about everything ends up on the floor.  Don't worry about taking off too much.  It will take you a few rifles to work up the courage to take off the right amount.  

Don't get caught up in trying to make each line and profile and surface perfect.   Get it about right and move on.   That is what the original builders did.   The more guns you build the better feel you will have for what is right.   It becomes self evident with study and practice.   Just remember that there is a practical reason why longrifles looked and look the way they do.   It has to do with the parts and their functional arrangement and the tools and techniques used to get there.   If you use a set of tools similar to what the original gun makers used,  then a certain way of making the gun will be easiest with these tools.   That is most likely going to be the way the original guns were made.  

Speaking of tools,  use the hand tools that were originally used to build these guns.   You do not need a fancy shop full of expensive power tools.   A simple workspace with a sturdy bench and a box of hand tools geared to the task at hand is all you need.   Buy the tools used as in vintage or antique.   Usable (not collector quality) antique tools are inexpensive, top quality, and appropriate to the work at hand.   The main thing is that you need to learn how to sharpen and care for these tools.  Once you do,  they will work for you very well and you will find it becoming easy to use these simple tools to make anything you desire of wood or metal.   This is advice born of years of experience and spending a lot of money on tools that I did not need.   I am getting rid of most of my power tools and doing more and more work with a simple set of hand tools.  The key to this working is learning how to sharpen them.   Sharp hand tools are a pleasure to use.  Dull hand tools are nearly impossible to use.   That is why a lot of people try them and give up on them.  Invest in tools that have been lovingly used by four or five generations of owners and learn to use them the way they did and pass them on to another generation after you are gone along with the things you have made with them.   I think you will surprise yourself with how much you can do with so little.  

I am now off my soapbox.  

[necchi]

Well Mark, that was wonderfully confusing, 

If I'm looking at the side of the rifle from ten feet away,
Will I see the line of wood along the barrel flat of the forearm as a straight line, or will it dip and rise with the barrel contour?

[obsidian]

Mark,
Thanks for answering the question.  I have a swamped barrel in my future and I can draw mental pictures as you veterans help "mentor" those of us involved in the big learning curve.  And I for one enjoy the way some of you guys are not afraid to follow a tangent and climb on the soap box.  (As long as the moderator doesn't mind!).  The process of how we work the raw materials into a respectable gun are as important as the end project hanging on the wall.  Preach on!

Rich

[Mark Elliott]

Necchi,

I was talking initially about the profile of the forearms as viewed from the top, through a horizontal section.    If you are asking about the line of the top of the forearms where it wraps into the barrel,  that is a little complicated.    Ideally, that line should be below the centerline of the barrel (about the 40% level from the bottom of the side flat) for most of the length of the barrel.   As the that line starts at or above center line on both sides of the stock,  that line must taper at varying rates.   Typically,  I terminate the nose piece at about 40% above the bottom of the side flat on both sides of the muzzle.   On the lock side, that line runs from the pan at about center line of the barrel to the muzzle in a fairly even taper.   On the opposite side of the barrel,  you have a roughly parabolic taper from the top of the barrel at the breech to approximately center line of the barrel before you reach the rear entry and then tapering very gently to the muzzle.  With the barrel out of the stock,   the line of the top of the forearm will appear to be the same on both sides of the barrel channel from in front of the lock panels to the muzzle.   By appear, I mean without a real close examination.   The fact of the matter is that the two sides of the barrel channel are never the same if the barrel is inlet and the stock shaped by hand.    That line will waver up and down trending down to the muzzle.   The originals are like this.   You have to employ some type of jig using sand paper to get them really close.   The original makers wouldn't have done that,  they would have just evened the line out with a file if they bothered at all, which it would appear they usually didn't.  I will use a mill file or small sanding block to take the fine edge off the sharp sides of the barrel channel before final assembly and finishing.  Usually,  this is to get rid of small chip outs and irregularities.   I can also use it to smooth out that top line some.   However,  given the warping of the forearm without the barrel to hold it straight, and irregularities in the inletting of the barrel, and irregularities in the thickness of the sidewalls of the barrel channel,  it is next to impossible to have a perfectly smooth line.    You have to remember that we are talking in generalities with regard to stock architecture.   There is some art to this and a good eye is important to make things look right, even if they aren't, and they usually aren't.    

I hope you are not still confused although I wouldn't bet the farm on it.   It is pretty hard to explain this stuff with just words.

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

I try to profile my forestock to follow the barrel. With the top edge of the wood being in the center of a vertical barrel Flat, I try to keep it relatively straight and exposing about 2/3 of the side flat. The sides of the stock from the entry to the muzzle cap are close to 1/16" in final thickness. The sides from about the entry point begin to widen slightly to the lock panels. The bottom side of the forestock is basicly straignt and allowing about 2/3 of the ramrod to be exposed.

That's how I do it.

[Acer Saccharum]

On handmade guns, NOTHING is straight square or parallel. It's all lines in motion, curves, tapering, swooping, swooning shapes. I'd definitely follow the swamp. From side view and top view. That's my opinion.

http://flintrifles.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/tc-a-021.jpg

But others like the geometric precision of square and straight and level. That's their opinion.

[WadePatton]

nice composition Mark.  maybe that should be pulled out for general Newbie advice "column" as it covers much more than the subject line.

[2veeps]

I think I 've got it.  Looking down from the top, the edge of the fore stock follows the contour of the barrel.  Thanks to everyone for their input.