Author Topic: Home made heat treating oven  (Read 39368 times)

westbj2

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Home made heat treating oven
« on: September 10, 2013, 12:01:02 PM »
Has any one made a heat treating oven?  I would only use it for springs, small machine tools and the like so the chamber only needs to be about 6" deep and high.
I see in looking around the web that many small pottery kilns are 110 volts but still are capable of 2000 degrees or more.  Actually the construction appears quite simple but electric controls have me a bit baffled.
Tips and advise would be appreciated.
Thanks
Jim

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2013, 03:19:03 PM »
Lots of people have retrofitted their old kilns with digital controls. Jerry Huddleston is quite the inventor, made all kinds of heat treating and tempering and bluing ovens. Try PM-ing him.
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Offline Brian Jordan

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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2013, 07:04:47 PM »
I started building a heat treat oven for doing knives a few years ago. I have all the parts to finish it. The project just got pushed to the back burner. The chamber is 6"x6"x18" deep. I know I have less than $500.00 into it.

Go here and do a search in the knife makers section. You can spend days researching home built ovens.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forum.php

Hope this helps.
Elizabeth, PA

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Hessian

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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2013, 07:21:10 PM »
Has any one made a heat treating oven?  I would only use it for springs, small machine tools and the like so the chamber only needs to be about 6" deep and high.
I see in looking around the web that many small pottery kilns are 110 volts but still are capable of 2000 degrees or more.  Actually the construction appears quite simple but electric controls have me a bit baffled.
Tips and advise would be appreciated.
Thanks
Jim

This is relevent to my interests as I recently picked up a small Paragon electric furnace. (no controller or thermocouple) I have been "tempering" in the wife's oven. I'm sure that she will be much happier once I figure out how to temper my blades without smelling up the kitchen!
Hessian 

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2013, 05:10:25 AM »
Once you have a box with a heating element,  the controls are easy.  You can get a PID controller, solid state relay, and thermocouple on Amazon.com very inexpensively.     I added those to a Neycraft oven to actually make it useful.   You will also need a large heat sink for the relay.   The only part that is a pain, is calibrating the controller.   Otherwise,  it is pretty straight forward.    It is so cheap and simple, you really have to wonder why anyone would make one of these things without a digital controller.   I have been using mine for a few years with no trouble.   You just throw the part in the oven, set the temp and walk away.   I have my oven plugged into an appliance timer if I want to turn it off automatically at a certain time.   

Offline Brian Jordan

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« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 09:19:02 PM by melsdad »
Elizabeth, PA

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Offline Brian Jordan

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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2013, 11:52:45 AM »
I appreciate you posting a source for the heating elements.   The other stuff is about half the price on Amazon.   I would like to make a furnace to charcoal blue barrels.   Does anybody have a suggestion for an inexpensive material for the enclosure?   It will only need to go up to about 900F. 

Mark try kao wool that is used to line home built propane forges.

http://www.anvilfire.com/sales/pages/kaowool_index.htm

Looks like less than $50.00 will get you what you need. There may be other sources with better pricing.
Elizabeth, PA

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Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2013, 04:30:03 PM »
 This subject is intriguing, I have an old enameling kiln, that I use for lost wax casting of jewelry. would it work for heat treating? I never thought of using it for this purpose.

                       Hungry Horse

Offline Brian Jordan

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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2013, 07:08:14 PM »
This subject is intriguing, I have an old enameling kiln, that I use for lost wax casting of jewelry. would it work for heat treating? I never thought of using it for this purpose.

                       Hungry Horse

What is the max temperature of the furnace? As long as it is high enough for the steel you are hardening.
Elizabeth, PA

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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2013, 07:44:03 PM »
casehardening gets done around 1500 F.

Tempilaq has interesting chart on temp settings:  http://www.tempil.com/wp-content/plugins/download-monitor/download.php?id=Basic_Guide_to_Ferrous_2010.pdf
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Offline 44-henry

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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2013, 01:06:31 AM »
I have had a few students build these forges over the years. I would like to build one myself for my home shop, just can't seem to find the time for it.

http://gingerybookstore.com/ForgeHeatTreat.html


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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2013, 04:15:27 AM »
Here's Paul's site. He's done  a lot of lost wax casting. Super neat stuff: http://hamlertools.blogspot.com/
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westbj2

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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2013, 11:08:44 PM »
After some searching the web I decided to go ahead and make the oven.  It is a hybrid of sorts in that it is held together by angle iron and threaded rod.  I went this way so that any changes will be simple.  I may end up using mortar if the heat loss is too much.  Also may have to wrap it in an insulation blanket because the outside apparently can get into the 400F range. 
The bottom and top are regular fire brick which is supposed to tolerate up to 2500F.  The sides are the soft ceramic brick because it is easy to cut the slots for the heating coils and is good up to 2300F.
Next is to install the controls and coils.







« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 06:33:34 AM by rich pierce »

Offline PPatch

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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2013, 01:39:14 AM »
I am going to chip in here as I have much experience building pottery kilns, several were electric.

One: those heavy firebricks on top are going to eat up that soft brick underneath due to thermal expansion and cooling cycles. So expect to have to replace them eventually along with replacing the heating elements since once you fire with them you likely won't be able to successfully reuse the old elements due to breakage (they get very brittle with use).

Two: The hard brick will have to soak up heat a long time before you get a return on investment, meaning they will eat a lot of BTU getting up to temperature. That is just the way hard firebrick are. You might consider making the whole unit from soft brick. That would solve your crack problem too as you could shape the soft brick to overlap or even key into one another, thus sealing the firing space. Or, to save weight use hard firebrick "splits" (essentially a regular sized brick cut in half long ways) with soft brick on top running in such a way as to seal the cracks.

Three: Be sure to place the unit on a surface that can take the kind of heat you will generate. In the old days that would have been asbestos board on top of red brick, these days I don't know what is available. But you will need to insulate the unit someway because it is going to get HOT.

dp

ADD: If you stick with the hard brick you can pour silica sand in the cracks of the bottom brick and that will seal the bottom. For the top it is a whole other problem since any mortar will likely flake over time and drop down into the firing space. I would insulate it with some soft brick running in such a way as to seal the cracks on top as much as possible. And, it is those hard brick that are going to get really hot, the soft can be 2000 degrees on one side and cool on the other. Well, just warm anyway... ;o)


« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 01:55:00 AM by PPatch »
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2013, 04:08:54 AM »
Great stuff!
P Patch, can you make an oven with all soft brick, then put a thin hard floor of firebrick in the oven?

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Offline Brian Jordan

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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2013, 04:37:06 AM »
Great stuff!
P Patch, can you make an oven with all soft brick, then put a thin hard floor of firebrick in the oven?



Yes you can do that to cut down on the wear of the soft brick.


I totally agree with Patch on what he is saying.

When I was researching my build every resource said to stay away from using hard brick. I just wish I could remember the exact reasons ???

For a build like this I would suggest to "do it once and do it right" this is nothing to cut corners on for safety issues alone.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 04:41:48 AM by melsdad »
Elizabeth, PA

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Offline PPatch

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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2013, 04:49:03 AM »
Tom; the answer to your question is yes. Further, you could build it with all soft brick and use splits in the bottom (the thinner hard brick) with soft underneath. The problem with mixing soft with hard is that the hard brick acts as a heavy sandpaper due to thermal expansion over time with firing cycles. Hard brick eats BTU before giving a return, while soft rapidly gives back the BTU then reflects that heat to the project. The problem with soft brick though is it is SOFT, and crumbles readily.

If I were building a small heating unit to fire to, say, 2500 degrees max with some heat soaking for periods of time at around 1500 I would look into some castable thermal material and make wooden molds of plywood to shapes I wanted.

Casting: I envision a box (could be sheet metal) within a box, the inter box smaller (plywood, both boxes could be wood), you mix and pour the material into the larger box then push the smaller into it making sure the back and sides are even, after curing it is essentially soft brick. That makes a shape you can then carve into for heating wire elements to rest in. You make a door of the same material.

Tell ya what - I will consult my son. He is much more up to date on these things than I, my ideas are 30 years old. He just graduated with a Masters in ceramics and metal working (jewelry sorts of stuff but not jewelry, I suppose its art...). He has just completed his studio and I am betting he has some ideas on making small heating units for doing the sort of thing he do.

Damnit... we keep talking and I'll be making one of these units... you GUYssss...

dp      
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 05:07:40 AM by PPatch »
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westbj2

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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2013, 01:06:00 PM »
Great information, thanks for the input.   
I think a replacement of the firebrick with soft brick is in order.  I notice that the soft brick is not as uniform as regular brick in terms of surface and dimension so perhaps a suitable mortar joint will be also needed if the heat loss is too great.  I have some firebrick splits to use for the floor on top of the soft brick so the vertical threaded rod will need to be longer. 
Also want to re-do the door arrangement to cover a wider surface area
What are your thoughts about wrapping the entire oven in the ceramic blanket material in addition?

These are the controls I am looking at .......any thoughts on these?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/KILN-OVEN-PID-TEMPERATURE-CONTROLLER-KIT-SSR-OUTPUT/360729419986?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D261%26meid%3D1127772289422452952%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1088%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D360729419916%26

Thanks,  Jim

Offline PPatch

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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2013, 04:14:00 PM »
Morning Jim;

First let me say that you did a good job in constructing the kiln you built, the general workmanship is very good. Second, allow me to say that while the properties of firebrick have not changed since I was involved in these matters the technology of refractory materials, casting medias and building materials, etc., has; and I am simply not up to date on them so do not know what is out there for making a device such as yours. I will phone my son this evening and see if he can bring us up to speed on those things, question him on what the best options are these days. I will get back with you when I have communicated with him.

At this point I will venture that you will likely end up using mostly soft brick for the little kiln, and some sort of material covering the outside. I looked at the temp controller unit you linked to - I cannot advise you on it as I am not familiar with it although it looks to work within the range of temperatures you will be using. How well it works, its lifespan, I do not know. By the way, don't make a habit of looking directly into a fired up kiln, use eye protection such as a welders glass or goggles. Lots of UV and other eye harmful light coming out of that interior.

To sum up: I will talk with my son and get back with you. Hopefully he will have some up to date information for you.

dave

ADD: Mortar - When I was building pottery kilns I avoided mortar like the plague, over time it tends to crumble and bit by bit fall into the interior of the kiln. No refractory mortar, in my day, would withstand the thermal expansion and contraction of repeated firings. We, of course, are talking of much smaller construction so I have no experience of that and do not know how a bit of mortar would function at the scale we are talking.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 04:24:24 PM by PPatch »
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Offline PPatch

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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2013, 04:02:51 AM »
Jim;

I spoke with my son this evening, he is pretty much with us on constructing the upper kiln of soft brick as we discussed. He concurs that the hard brick will eventually destroy those soft ones under them plus they will eat up far too much BTU getting to temperature if in fact the kiln ever does. Also those hard brick will give off far more radiated heat then the soft as they are so dense the heat travels through them so you would have 2000 degrees inside and 1500 outside unless you made it much thicker.

So, soft brick is the way to go for sure, possibly with some sort of insulating material around the whole.  You could also enclose the whole shebang in sheet metal within an angle iron cage. Make the floor of split(s). May as well try that thermocouple unit you found on ebay, I really can't help you there.

Hope this helps and I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

dp
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westbj2

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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2013, 03:14:14 PM »
After a number of changes and alterations I have the new oven up and running.
The ability of soft firebrick to contain heat while not transferring it is impressive.  I ran the oven for an hour at 750 C. (about 1475 F.) and the exterior was only warm to the touch.  The 1" blanket wrap probably helps considerably. 
The oven is on a 20 amp 110/120 circuit and my calculations suggest that it draws about 15-16 amps. 
The controls are fairly simple, the readings are in C. but for an additional $20 you can have it read in F. as well.
Total cost turned out to be in the range of $225.
Thanks to P/P and others who made great suggestions at the beginning.

Here is a list of components I used and their sources.
Controls:   This fellow was very helpful and the parts came with good instructions.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/KILN-OVEN-PID-TEMPERATURE-CONTROLLER-KIT-SSR-OUTPUT-/321219225262?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aca2866ae

Heating coil:     I wound my coil on the lathe from a 25 foot spool of Kanthal A wire.  This wire has an ohm value of about .3 ohm/ft.  You want to end up with something over 7.5 ohms for a 20 amp circuit.
http://www.tempco.com/Accessories/wireA.htm

Soft brick and blanket:  Try to buy the brick locally as they are fragile and all the online suppliers make a hefty shipping charge.
Mine came from here. http://ssfbs.com/

Some pictures:










Offline PPatch

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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2013, 03:48:47 PM »
Looking good Jim. Many happy firings. How long does it take to get to temperature?

dave
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westbj2

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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2013, 04:43:11 PM »
Dave,
The oven comes to 750 C. in about 5-6 minutes but the temp fluctuates up and down about 15 degrees from that temp for about 20 minutes apparently until the interior temp stabilizes, after that the fluctuations are only about 5 degrees either way.
Thanks again for your help.
Jim

Offline PPatch

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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2013, 11:01:19 PM »
That temp fluctuation is normal, all kilns do it until the brick have soaked up enough btu to begin to reflect back the heat and even out all over. With hard brick you would have been waiting hours if it ever did get up to temp.

5-6 minutes is burning fast, good job. Be careful around those heating elements as they will become very brittle after a few firings and snap in two if you bump them.

dp
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Offline PPatch

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Re: Home made heat treating oven
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2013, 05:07:56 AM »
Tom, Jim

I thank both of you for the kind remarks. I was glad to be of some service here in aid of something I happen to have a little knowledge of.

lord knows I have taken far more from this site than I could possibly put back, so I was happy to provide what I could. You guys are tops and I continue to soak up the wisdom provided daily on this great forum.

Cheers

dp

 



« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 05:11:42 AM by PPatch »
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