Author Topic: Rifle Accuracy 1776  (Read 104638 times)

Offline Artificer

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #100 on: November 17, 2013, 01:02:19 PM »
Dan,
A description of firing a .50 cal. rifle at 285 yards in modern times does not give us a true account of 18th century accuracy, because no doubt you used a much tighter ball/patch combination than what was used in the 18th century.  Now, if that account or accounts was/were from using a patch/ball combination that could be rammed down the bore without a short starter, then it would be more consistent with the 18th century.  Of course such a looser fitting ball (typical of the 18th century) will not be as accurate as a modern load where different ball sizes and different types and thicknesses of patching material were tried and used to find the load to get the most accuracy. 

Tim Murphy was deemed exceptional in his day as having been able to reliably place a ball in a 7” target at 250 yards, by at least one written account.  This is important to remember that it WAS deemed exceptional to have so written it down.  So I have no doubt he could have made a 300 yard shot on a man mounted on a horse and not moving.  However, while perched in a tree - hitting a man on a horse at a gallop at 440 yards (as was recounted in at least one of the accounts of the Tim Murphy shot) is pure fantasy or deliberate propaganda.  Such a shot would have been almost unbelievable had he been prone on the ground and would have able to move enough to lead the horse/rider enough AND had he KNOWN how much to lead the horse/rider and wind and other conditions been perfect that day. 

Can you give an historic example of where there was a fort or fortification where Native American Riflemen (or Tory Riflemen or Canadian Riflemen) were firing at 200 yards and consistently hitting the Americans inside so that firing from 300 yards was deemed useful or necessary to PRACTICE enough at that range to be effective?  There are no accounts of such long range rifle matches to my knowledge, but perhaps you have documented examples I don’t know about? 

A documented example of rifles used against a fort was when George Rogers Clark took Fort Sackville at Vincennes, IN in 1779.

“Fire commenced on the fort's gun ports and any other openings that could be identified. The fire was so accurate that the defenders were forced to close the gun ports and thus lost the use of their cannons. When some tried to reopen a gun port, the fire wounded six of the British, one-sixth of Hamilton's regulars.”

Now that was good shooting BUT what is often overlooked was at what range the Riflemen were shooting from before they opened fire:

“By now Bowman's men were about 120 yards from the main gate and other sharpshooters were within 30 yards of the northeast palisade. The rest were taking cover behind houses, barns and natural barriers.”

This range was WELL within the 110 to 120 yard point blank range of the American Longrifle.  George Rogers Clark knew better than most what the accurate range of the American Longrifle was and he used that knowledge (along with cunning and other tactics) to get close enough to make their shots count.  They were not shooting at anywhere close to 200 yards and some were within Smoothbore Musket Range at 30 yards.

Of course the real problem for anyone who wishes to submit that 300 or more yard accuracy was common for American Riflemen in the 18th century, runs smack into the brick wall that American Riflemen were ordered not to take shots beyond 150 yards (in the American Revolution) because they MISSED too much beyond that range on the battlefield where it counted.  Had they HAD such experience shooting beyond 200 yards at Rifle Armed Native Americans, as had been suggested, they would not have missed so often beyond 150 yards. 

Gus

willyr

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #101 on: November 17, 2013, 01:51:04 PM »
How can we be sure the real marksmen among the American riflemen were not using a tight ball/patch load? The most common patch lube of the time was bear oil-not bear grease- and though I have never used any bear oil, I believe it to be "slicker than owls**t". Just because we don't have a signed and dated short starter doesn't mean they didn't exist. Seems as if we are doing at lot of "supposing" and "what ifs" in this discussion.
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Bill

Offline Artificer

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #102 on: November 17, 2013, 03:35:43 PM »
Bill,

The “what ifs” and “supposing” in this case is on the side of a tight fitting patched ball that would require the use of a short starter in the 18th century. 

There is little to no documentation that short starters were used until the 19th century.  Though powder horns and bags were made commercially in profusion in the 18th century, there is no record of anyone making short starters.  I realize someone could have whittled one from a chunk of wood, but if that was common, where are the records to confirm that? 

I also realize that there are very few shooting pouches that can be accurately dated to the 18th century so we can’t take too much from that, but there were no short starters found in them.  The archeological record has not turned up short starters from the 18th century, either.     

Further, cloth was not available in the profusion of weaves and thicknesses in the 18th century that was more common even by the 1850’s.  Not only that, but they did not have precision measuring devices to measure the cloth.  They almost certainly had to try scraps of different pieces of cloth until they found the one that worked best.  However, the next time they went to buy cloth, that cloth may not or would not have been available.  So did they weave cloth especially for patching material?  Again, no record of that. 

Finally, in an Essay on Shooting, printed by T. Cadell, London, 1789 (an original source document Gary Brumfeld often mentioned and listed in his website) does not mention the use of short starters even for “the German Method” of loading a ball wrapped in fustian (cloth).  He did go quite into detail on the Ferguson rifle used in the Rev War.  It is pretty telling that had short starters been in common use, Cadell would have mentioned it as he spoke to the common methods of loading a rifle in other countries.

Gus

Offline Candle Snuffer

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #103 on: November 17, 2013, 04:40:08 PM »
Here is an interesting read.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/history/item/4786-the-american-rifleman-in-the-revolutionary-war

Couple things caught my eye while reading this.  One remark about Riflemen being able to reload in 30 seconds.  Actually I have no problem doing this, and that is with an extra step of using the short starter.

Also, I like that the author does use the word "pace" in his writings, though whether he drew this from research, I don't know?
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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #104 on: November 17, 2013, 05:23:24 PM »
Researching the subject on the forum more, I found some of Dan’s earlier comments:

“Cooke's hunting pouch (1761-1842) has a priming horn, a bullet board and a starter with it. When did he start using the bullet board? In 1775 or 1810? We have no way of knowing. Same for the priming horn.  But I bet it was while he was young.”

Dr. Tim Boone asked in reply:

“Where did you see this presumably verified exhibit??  "Cooke's hunting pouch (1761-1842) has a priming horn, a bullet board and a starter with it. When did he start using the bullet board? In 1775 or 1810? We have no way of knowing. Same for the priming horn.
But I bet it was while he was young."

These quotes can be found in this thread:  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=19243.15

I think Dr. Boone’s question is a reasonable question to ask to determine the validity of the pouch.  Perhaps Dan would like to offer it here?  I ask because it is the only case of a short starter I have ever heard of that could be from the 18th century, though that is not confirmed.

I would LOVE to get documentation of using short starters in the 18th century as common practice, because it makes shooting a flint rifle more accurate.  However, there just doesn’t seem to be documentation to support it.  


And Dan also asked:

“Here is a question for those versed in such things.
If a member of the "Continental line" (or Red Coats) and in a "shooting match" against the Red Coats (or Continental Line) and you suffer a flash in the pan how do you reprime? I have never studied 18th century military drill so I don't know.
Is it written down some where? If its not documented then they just waited for the inevitable bayonet charge or the "run away! run away!" command right?
Just curious.”

There is nothing in any 18th century drill manual I’ve ever seen telling one what to do when one had a flash in the pan.  Matter of fact, through the Civil War drill manuals I’ve read, I don’t recall seeing anything telling one what to do when a percussion rifle did not go off.  

Since 18th century drill manuals always began the loading process by biting the end off the cartridge paper and priming the pan, they most likely assumed when one had a misfire, that the next cartridge would be used to re-prime the pan and the rest of the cartridge not loaded into the musket.  However, that was not written down in the manuals.  Of course, it is entirely possible that in such a case during the heat of battle the soldier may not have realized his musket did not go off in a volley fire and when the next round was used to prime and load, it may have burst the barrel or fired both loads out the front.  There were cases of burst barrels that were recorded and likely that is one reason why.  

During the Civil War, they found a rifle musket that was dropped by a Confederate soldier in the sunken road right after the Battle of Fredericksburg,  It had something like 22 cartridges and minie balls loaded in it.  It was not written down whether the cone/nipple was open to the powder charge or not.  If the cone/nipple was plugged up, the soldier might have put caps on it for each time he loaded it and tried to fire.  It is also possible that he forgot to put a cap on the cone/nipple.  As fast and furiously as Confederate soldiers were firing their rifled muskets that day, and they loaded and passed rifle muskets up to the soldiers in front, it is quite possible either thing happened.  

I don’t believe military manuals addressed what to do about misfires until Field Manuals were written in the Post WWII era.  Where most of us got our information about it was during the required safety briefs prior to firing on the annual requalification range.  Further, the first FM I can recall that had such information in it was for the M16A1.

Gus
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 05:31:56 PM by Artificer »

Offline Artificer

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #105 on: November 17, 2013, 05:36:08 PM »
Here is an interesting read.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/history/item/4786-the-american-rifleman-in-the-revolutionary-war

Couple things caught my eye while reading this.  One remark about Riflemen being able to reload in 30 seconds.  Actually I have no problem doing this, and that is with an extra step of using the short starter.

Also, I like that the author does use the word "pace" in his writings, though whether he drew this from research, I don't know?

The author lost me when I read this comment:  

"the Kentucky could bring down a man or a deer at 100 or more yards and knock a squirrel out of a tree at 200 or more."

Gus
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 05:37:54 PM by Artificer »

Offline Candle Snuffer

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #106 on: November 17, 2013, 05:38:12 PM »
Thought that odd as well.
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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #107 on: November 17, 2013, 05:45:27 PM »
I might believe it could knock a squirrel out of a tree at 100 yards and of course it could bring down a deer or man at 200 or more.  Maybe it was a typographical error where it got switched around.  However, a 100 yard shot on a squirrel would be a difficult shot to make even from a rest.
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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #108 on: November 17, 2013, 05:57:50 PM »
I think the author was referring to the power of the rifle in that it could drop a man or deer at 100 yards and the accuracy that it could hit a squirrel at 200 yards.  Two different descriptions in the same sentence.

Offline Candle Snuffer

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #109 on: November 17, 2013, 07:09:59 PM »
I think the author was referring to the power of the rifle in that it could drop a man or deer at 100 yards and the accuracy that it could hit a squirrel at 200 yards.  Two different descriptions in the same sentence.

That makes sense.

Not to open another can of worms (so to speak), but I've always found the following (requirement/ boast) to be questionable at best.  I just have a hard time buying into this;

[To qualify for service with the company, [Captain John Lowdon’s Company of Northumberland County Riflemen], a rifleman had to fire at and repeatedly hit a seven-inch target at 250 yards, repeatedly]

I just find this hard to believe and wonder if it wasn't as much propaganda at the time then any thing else?  I feel they were good shots, and yes it is possible to do, but with regularity - I doubt it, even if it was done from prone off a rest, especially when we're talking 250 yards.  If the ball left the muzzle at 1750 fps, regardless if it was 200+ years ago or not, it would still have to pass through the "sub-sonic" field where we know today that modern .22lr hv bullets wobble.  Now perhaps with the ball being round and heavier it wasn't effective to the same degree as our modern 40 grain .22lr rim fire bullet?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 08:30:07 PM by Candle Snuffer »
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #110 on: November 17, 2013, 11:21:10 PM »
No bullet (elongated) shapes I am aware of, maintain stability through the transonic zone of speed. Boat-tailed bullets seem to be the less stable of all, but I'm sure Gus can fill us in on that. Not many ML shooters use boat-tailed bullets, however.

 From my own and Taylor's shooting at longer ranges that involved transonic speeds, I assume round balls are very much less effected by the transition from super sonic to sub sonic speeds than are elongated bullets. This most likely would be due to the hemispherical shape of the ball- centre of the ball is the centre of balance and centre of the stability.
Daryl

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Offline Candle Snuffer

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #111 on: November 18, 2013, 12:07:43 AM »
Thanks Daryl.  I never thought to much about the possibility of a round ball perhaps transitioning until this thread.  For near 40 years of shooting the patched round ball, I remember not only myself, but other fellow shooters as well saying to the new comers to the sport, "nothing flies more true then a round ball out to 100 yards."  I never thought much about those words even when we shot out to 200 yards at gongs.
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Offline Elnathan

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #112 on: November 18, 2013, 12:48:04 AM »
I might be able to help with the subject of period loading processes.

James Audubon, c1810, describing his host preparing to go raccoon hunting:

"… He blows through his rifle to ascertain that it is clear, examines his flint, and thrusts a feather into the touch-hole. To a leathern bag swung at his side is attached a powder-horn; his sheath-knife is there also; below hangs a narrow strip of homespun linen. He takes from his bag a bullet, pulls with his teeth the wooden stopper from his powder-horn, lays the ball in one hand, and with the other pours the powder upon it until it is just overtopped. Raising the horn to his mouth, he again closes it with the stopper, and restores it to its place. He introduces the powder into the tube; springs the box of his gun, greases the "patch" over with some melted tallow, or damps it; then places it on the honey-combed muzzle of his piece. The bullet is placed on the patch over the bore, and pressed with the handle of the knife, which now trims the edge of the linen. The elastic hickory rod, held with both hands, smoothly pushes the ball to its bed; once, twice, thrice has it rebounded. The rifle leaps as it were into the hunters arms, the feather is drawn from the touch-hole, the powder fills the pan, which is closed. “Now I’m ready,” cries the woodsman….
Journals, Vol. 2, (1972 reprint), page 492.

Lots of interesting stuff, but particularly note the use of a knife to start (by pressing, not striking) the ball, and the fact that the touch-hole was large enough that the rifle would self-prime and required a feather to keep it from doing so prematurely. Our raccoon hunter doesn't seem to have been terribly concerned about measuring his powder accurately, but since there are period accounts of powder measures we can assume that his method was not universal in that regard.

In addition to the excellent distinction Artificer is making between modern and period loading techniques, it might also be helpful to make a distinction between potential accuracy (period and contemporary) and what was actually accomplished under field conditions, including the effects of fear and other stresses of combat. Perhaps this has already been brought up; if so, I apologize.


Edited to add: Meshach Browning also recounts bending his rifle barrel when it shot too high for his liking. As a matter of fact, Meshach seems like the archetypical example of someone who, despite making his living through hunting, doesn't seem to have been overly concerned with precision shooting. While I think he was a certifiable nut in all kinds of ways, I wonder how common that attitude was...  
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 03:45:29 AM by Elnathan »
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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #113 on: November 18, 2013, 05:25:55 AM »
No bullet (elongated) shapes I am aware of, maintain stability through the transonic zone of speed. Boat-tailed bullets seem to be the less stable of all, but I'm sure Gus can fill us in on that. Not many ML shooters use boat-tailed bullets, however.

 From my own and Taylor's shooting at longer ranges that involved transonic speeds, I assume round balls are very much less effected by the transition from super sonic to sub sonic speeds than are elongated bullets. This most likely would be due to the hemispherical shape of the ball- centre of the ball is the centre of balance and centre of the stability.

Daryl is right on the money about elongated bullets going unstable as they transition down in speed and not so much on round balls.  Matter of fact, elongated bullets can be unstable just due to the rifling twist, unlike what we usually find in Muzzle Loading barrels that are far more forgiving of twist rate.  The worst case I’ve ever seen with modern rifles was with some M1 carbines that were rebarreled with chrome lined barrels that had been rejected by the U.S. government for having tight and loose spots and some even had interrupted rifling twist as the rifling went down the bore.  Even at the short range of 25 yards, they made elongated holes in the target and occasionally bullets went through the paper targets sideways. 

I’m not a mechanical engineer, though over the years I’ve bedeviled real ones to get some explanations of things we found worked by trial and error.  Explanations of changing pitch and yaw as the elongated bullets slow down and hit denser atmosphere or wind are difficult to grasp.  The best way to visualize what happens is if you hold your hand straight with your forearm and begin making circles with it, then add circles in the area of your elbow that are not concentric with the circles made my your hand and maybe at a slower speed at the hand or elbow.  Before long the difference in the circles made by the hand and elbow sort of demonstrate what happens to an elongated bullet when it slows down.  If the bullet travels far enough that way, it will even begin to tumble once it is no longer stabilized by spinning around it’s axis like a football is thrown. 
Gus

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #114 on: November 18, 2013, 07:37:47 AM »
Elnathan’s period account is an excellent one as it really goes into detail about the loading process.  The point he noted from the text about pressing the ball into the muzzle with the knife handle is important.  This means one will get a tighter fitting patch/ball combination down the bore than what could be done by pressing the ball in place by the thumb or hand (neither of the last two ways to press the ball with a body part would have been safe to do anyway). 

Something that is not mentioned in the account is the handle of the knife most likely was wood, as most trade knives were, so it would not have deformed a lead ball as much as a harder handle material might do.  I remember one buckskinner on the Primitive Range in the mid 70’s at Friendship who started his balls this way, but he used a knobbly antler slab handled knife.  I noticed the “knobblies” sometimes deformed the ball, but he said it didn’t matter at the ranges we shot.  OK, I was a young newcomer then, so I didn’t argue, but refrained from doing it myself and stuck to a wood short starter. 

I can’t remember when I first read this account years ago, but at the time I had thought pouring powder over the ball was just an old wives tale before I read it.  However, some forum members mentioned in other threads that they tried it with different size balls and then measured the charges.  Though the “poured over the ball” powder charges were not as accurate in volume/weight as poured into a measure and varied more, the charge actually was in a good range to propel the bullet fairly accurately and safely. 

Now of course the range he was shooting raccoons was not that great and you don’t need a lot of bullet mass to kill them.  In the years I hunted Raccoon before I joined the Corps, I took 47 raccoon with 49 shots from my Ruger Mark I .22 rimfire target pistol and I was not nearly as good a pistol shot then as in later years.  Even shooting one handed with the other hand holding the old style large plastic lanterns behind my head to illuminate the sights and target, the range was just not that great even in some very large trees the raccoon occasionally treed in. 

I have no original account to base this on, but I think the “pour the powder over the ball” method was a starting point and then they would try adding a little more powder at a time until the rifle shot it’s best.  Now, here is one thing I won’t emulate historically.  Grin.  I’ll use an adjustable powder measure to find the right load and then cut a tinned or wood measure to that charge for historic interpretation. 

Good point about the turkey feather being necessary to close off the touch hole.  Such large “self priming” touch holes are not real popular with a person on the right side of a right handed shooter.  However, this was a good period way to ensure the main powder charge stayed more consistent in the barrel and thus would have given slightly better accuracy than allowing varying amounts of the main powder charge to flow into the touch hole channel and pan. 

We have written a little on “the fog of war” making accurate shooting more difficult in war than in hunting or on the target range, but it is a point well worth repeating.  The psychological pressures lead to crazy, stupid, dangerous, and sometimes unbelievable things in war time.  In high level NM shooting competition, it was a “given” that one usually would not shoot as well in matches as their average scores in practice until one had shot a lot of matches.  That was just “match nerves” and no one was shooting at them!
Gus

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #115 on: November 18, 2013, 09:20:37 AM »
First, I have no idea how tight a load was used in the 18th c by Tim Murphy or anyone else of the time. I don't think anyone else does either. I can load the load used at 285 yards with the ROD ONLY and in fact did since I did not even OWN a starter at the time.
There ARE targets fired in the 1920s using ORIGINAL RIFLES in Dillion's book, at least the first edition. A book everyone here should have read if they want to talk accuracy of original flintlock rifles.
I suggest that those interested look there. Especially the trials of "Old Killdeer" which they state has ORIGINAL RIFLING.
I have not re-read the text but a number of ORIGINAL FL rifles seem to have fired groups of 2-2 1/2" at 100 there is a three shot group by Old Killdeer that seems to be small enough to hit a NICKLE fired at 100 yards by Kaufman.
They have another target from 200 yards that is about 4" high and 7" wide if its full sized as it appears to be. I suspect this is accurate enough to hit a man at 300 in 3 shots or so...
The book also contains ORIGINAL TARGETS from the 1830s. Probably fired at 50-60 yards. 60 apparently was a common distance. But they could be 25 or 40 or 100.
So get a copy look at plates 63, 71 75, 76, 77 and 79 and probably others.
I am amazed that so many people here apparently did not know where to find the photos of Cooke's equipment and accounts of ORIGINAL rifles being fired in "modern times" (90 odd years ago) and the other information contained in various books which are either still in print or readily available. Remember in 1920s there there were people around who were alive before the advent of the self-contained cartridge. No doubt people like Dillon and Kaufman were interested in Kentucky rifled BEFORE the 1920s they could EASILY have talked to people who had USED them in the mid 19th c.
Yes there is "dated material" in  Dillon and in Cline, but the targets, especially in Dillon are timeless.
Its past bedtime in Montana.

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #116 on: November 18, 2013, 09:31:10 AM »
PS
I have pressed modern "tight" loads into the muzzle with a knife handle too.
So pressing a patched ball into the muzzle with a knife handle does not equate to "loose".

Dan
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willyr

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #117 on: November 18, 2013, 02:48:41 PM »
I've got a few more things to say and then I'm bowing out of this conversation. To suggest that all patching material that was available during this time period was inconsistent in thickness and tightness of weave shows a remarkable misunderstanding of the process of turning flax into linen. My sister is an established member of the crafts guild here in Mississippi and is a weaver. She makes fabric from the raw material, both flax and cotton, spinning into thread on a circa 1830 spinning wheel and weaving that thread into cloth on a handmade manual loom. She has made some linen that would make 300 count linen look like burlap. My point is this, these spinning and weaving skills predate the American Revolution by a significant margin and this kind of cottage industry was common in the colonies. Remember that not all the riflemen in the ARW were from the frontier, and even those who were had access to good patching material when they came to where the war was fought.
     Since we can only speculate as to how they actually loaded their rifles, we would be wise to not pooh-pooh the stories and legends of the long range shots.
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Bill

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #118 on: November 19, 2013, 06:33:27 AM »
Homespun linen, linsey Woolsey, and other cloth production was often limited in the lower classes to just what they needed to clothe family members.  It was not uncommon that boys got one long linen shirt per year and it was often recorded that the shirts were pretty thread bare and ragged as it drew close to the time to make  the “new annual shirt.”  Though such cloth was made in different thicknesses for hot and cold times of the year, it did not come in a wide variety of thicknesses or thread count - as it was home production. 

I’m not disputing that linen cloth could not be made in a variety of thread count and thicknesses from 1725 to 1775, but it normally required a weaver to make the widest various ranges of sizes of cloth to choose from to find what might be best to patch rifle balls with for the individual rifle.  The availability of looms and especially weavers was different in different times and areas of the frontier during this half century.

A good reference on cloth and clothing during our time period can be found here:  http://people.virginia.edu/~mgf2j/clothes.html

Now, IF a weaver was available to the rifle owner and IF he could afford to pay or trade for the weaver’s cloth, then he would try to find the size cloth that best suited for his rifle and balls.  There were no precision calipers or micrometers then, so it was trial and error.  Too tight of cloth would not be used, so his choices were narrowed down to the thicknesses of cloth made and best fit his rifle.  That’s a huge difference from today when we can walk into a fabric store with precision calipers or better still micrometers and choose a suitable cloth with texture, thread count, and most importantly the uniform thickness that best fits our the balls we use in our rifles for the best accuracy.

I am not sure what to make about the significance of cloth being more available during the Revolutionary War to American Riflemen as they got closer to the areas major battles were fought.  Perhaps you mean closer to where weavers were set up or what was left of imported fabrics?  If so, then it still remained trying to choose from what size of suitable cloth that was made with enough threads per inch and was available or was normally made by a weaver as mentioned above. 

As to the wisdom of “pooh-poohing” the stories and legends of long range accuracy, anyone may certainly believe anything they choose, but some of the myths and legends are just that and can not be fact.  I suggest that real wisdom comes from separating myths and legends from facts. 

One of the most telling facts is that American Riflemen were ordered not to shoot past 150 yards because they missed too much from further ranges.  This order no doubt came about from the general rule of thumb that most American Riflemen missed during war time beyond that range.  That is not to say that a very small percentage of truly exceptional Riflemen could not have shot from longer ranges and hit their targets.  This is separating myth/legend from fact. 

There is no doubt in my mind that the most credible accounts of the accuracy of the Longrifle IN COMBAT came from British Major (later Colonel) George Hanger.  He was known at the time as having been perhaps THE finest rifle shot in England.  It was also known he interviewed many American Riflemen on the American Longrifle.  After the war, he wrote a book strongly recommending Rifle Regiments be adopted into the British Army.  Here is one comment he made during the war and I capitalized some parts to emphasize them, as I’m having a hard time emboldening or underlining in this thread:

“I have many times asked the American backwoodsmen WHAT WAS THE MOST THEIR BEST MARKSMEN could do; and they have constantly told me that an expert rifleman, provided he can draw good and true sight (they mean by this expression, when they can distinctly see the object aimed at in a direct line with the two sights on the rifle), can hit the head of a man at 200 yards. I am certain provided an American rifleman was to get a perfect aim at 300 yards at me, he would most undoubtedly would hit me, unless if was a very windy day, so much so as to occasion the ball considerably to deflect”

Now, this is what the BEST MARKSMEN of the American Riflemen or “expert riflemen” could do and not what the AVERAGE Rifleman could do at 200 yards.  Since virtually ALL the American Riflemen were backwoodsmen, this distinction is critical when we talk about the accuracy of the Long Rifle.  Is he still talking about what the BEST marksmen can do when describing hitting someone at 300 yards if their aim was (1) perfect and IF it was (2) not too windy?  It would certainly seem so as he was talking about what “the best” or “expert riflemen” could do in the sentence immediately before it.  Even if one suggests Colonel Hanger was now making a different and more generalized statement, in the very next sentence which is not likely, he still put two extremely important qualifiers [(1) and (2) above] in his assessment that can not be overlooked.  If the rifleman’s aim was not perfect or if the wind was too much, then it was no longer a sure bet he would be hit at 300 yards.  Further, we can not forget that American Riflemen were ordered NOT to fire beyond 150 yards as they missed to much at that distance as a rule of thumb. 

Major now Colonel Hanger’s quote that was written down after the war:

“Colonel, now General Tarleton, and myself were standing a few yards out of a wood, observing the situation of a part of the enemy which we intended to attack. There was a rivulet in the enemy's front, and a mill on it, to which we stood directly with our horses fronting, observing their motions. IT WAS AN ABSOLUTE PLAIN FIELD BETWEEN US AND THE MILL, NOT SO MUCH AS A SINGLE BUSH ON IT.. Our orderly-bugle man stood behind us, about three yards, but with his horse's side to our horses' tails.

A rifleman passed over the mill-dam, evidently observing two officers, and laid himself down on his belly, for, in such positions they always lie, to take a good shot at a long distance. He took a deliberate and cool shot at my friend, at me, and the bugle-horn man.*

Now observe how well this fellow shot. It was in the month of August, and NOT A BREATH OF WIND WAS STIRRING. Colonel Tarleton's horse and mine, I am certain, were not anything like two feet apart, for we were in close consultation, how we should attack with our troops, which laid 300 yards in the wood, and could not be perceived by the enemy. A rifle-ball passed between him and me looking directly to the mill: I evidently observed the flash of the powder. I directly said to my friend, “I think we had better move or we shall have two or three of these gentlemen, amusing themselves at our expence.” The words were hardly out of my mouth, when the bugle-horn man said, “Sir, my horse is shot.” The horse staggered, fell down and died. He was shot directly behind the fore-leg, near to the heart, at least where the great blood-vessels lie, which lead to the heart. He took the saddle and bridle off, went into the wood, and got another horse. We had a number of spare horses led by negro lads.

Now, speaking of this rifleman's shooting, nothing could be better, BUT, FROM THE CLIMATE, HE HAD MUCH IN HIS FAVOUR. FIRST AT THAT TIME OF THE YEAR, THERE WAS NOT ONE BREATH OF A WIND, SECONDLY, THE ATMOSPHERE IS SO MUCH CLEARER THAN OURS, THAT HE CAN TAKE A MORE PERFECT AIM.

*I have passed several times over this ground, and ever observed it with the greatest attention, and I can positively assert that the distance he fired from, at us, was full four hundred yards.”

OK, let’s analyze the shooting conditions in this case “by the numbers.”  Grin.. 

1.  It was a very clear day for shooting with not a breath of wind.  That’s the equivalent of virtually perfect environmental conditions for shooting that are not common.  Modern military rifle ranges with high berms on each side of the range almost never offer that kind of “no wind” conditions at 400 yards. 

2.  There was nothing between the American Rifleman and the British, as the ground between them was an absolutely plain field with not a bush on it.  Here it is very similar to a modern military rifle range.

3. The American rifleman took the time to lay down and take up the best shooting position possible to make a long distant shot AND he was not disturbed while doing so.  Wow, what an advantage!

4. The uniforms the two British Officers wore were plenty distinctive, even at that distance, to mark them as Officers because they were trimmed in SILVER. There can be no doubt the American Rifleman knew he was shooting at Officers in such perfect environmental conditions. Here is a portrait of Major/Colonel John Hanger himself in his Legion uniform that was painted only one to two years after his return to England after the war and it is easy to see the silver braid that trimmed his and Tarleton’s uniforms to denote them as Officers.

http://home.golden.net/~marg/bansite/friends/gh_beach.html

5.  To me, this one is the most telling.  The American rifleman ONLY saw THREE British Soldiers on horseback standing still and not moving, as Colonel Hanger states the rest of the British Troops were concealed in the woods 300 yards behind them.  Though the American Rifleman probably assumed more British Troops were in the area, there were no other direct threats to the American Rifleman than those three British soldiers.  That made shooting at them as “low stress” as one gets in a combat situation and helps the shooter deliver the best shot possible.  More stress than shooting on a rifle range for practice to be sure, but no where near the stress of trying to shoot when facing opposing light infantry, cavalry and artillery. 

OK, what was the result of the American Rifleman’s shot when EVERTHING was as perfect as possible for such a cool and calculated shot in war time? 

A.  The American Rifleman MISSED either Officer he was aiming at!!!! 

B.  The American Rifleman even MISSED the horse/s the Officers were mounted on!!!!! 

C.  The fact the “Bugle Horn Man’s” horse was broadside to the American Rifleman (behind the two Officers) and considering where the horse was hit, demonstrates the American Rifleman not only misjudged windage, but also misjudged elevation as well. 

Now I realize this assessment can be seen as brutally factual.  I spent many years building and repairing very accurate rifles for both NM shooters and Snipers and was often in their company.  I’m judging this as a Sniper would judge the shot.  HOWEVER, even though the American Rifleman MISSED, he still made quite a shot!  Had the British Officers NOT moved after the shot and still were mounted on horseback and standing still, the American Rifleman may and even probably would have hit at least one of the horses under one of the British Officers on a second shot.  Still, that does not change the fact the American Rifleman MISSED his target when he had the most perfect conditions one could expect in war time. 

So what have we learned from these two accounts?

1.  The BEST or most Expert American Riflemen could reliably hit at man’s head at 200 yards.  Not ALL American Riflemen, mind you, only the BEST of them. Further, Major Hanger never witnessed such expert shooting and was going off what others told him.  However, due to Major Hanger’s background, I am pretty certain we can take this as fact for the BEST or most expert American Riflemen.

2.  I have no doubt Major Hanger BELIEVED that if such an expert rifleman took perfect aim at him at 300 yards (and though he didn’t say it, I’m sure he meant standing still) and wind conditions were almost ideal, the American Rifleman would hit him at that distance.  Belief and reality are often not the same thing, though.  Hmmmm…..OK, IF that was true in reality, then that begs the question how did he and Banastre Tarleton SURVIVE the war and returned home to England?   

Bannastre Tarleton, especially, was probably THE most hated British Officer of the Revolution and one of the most recognized British Officers during the Revolution.  LOADS of Americans wanted to see Banastre Tarleton DEAD during the war for the slaughter Tarleton committed against surrendering American Troops in 1780 at the “Waxhaws Massacre.” Tarleton was VERY active right up until his surrender after Cornwallis surrendered at Yorktown. Yet, American Riflemen did not get him at Camden or Fishing Creek or Blackstock Hill or Cowpens or Guilford Court House or even when he was bottled up at Gloucester Point, across the York River from the British position at Yorktown.  There is little doubt Tarleton was sitting still on his horse within 300 yards of American Riflemen during that period.
http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/army/p/tarleton.htm

3.  Even under THE most ideal conditions in war time, an American Rifleman MISSED at 400 yards when he shot at Colonel Tarleton and Major Hanger.  Sure, it was a close miss, but a miss nonetheless under IDEAL conditions.  That means 400 yards was outside the effective range of the American Rifle and a hit at that distance would have been sheer chance or luck.

But, all in all, we still have to come back to the fact that American Riflemen were ORDERED not so shoot beyond 150 yards, because they generally missed too much beyond that range. 

Gus

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #119 on: November 19, 2013, 06:51:02 AM »
Oh, Dag Blast it!!  GRIN.

I forget to mention ANOTHER thing about the 400 yard shot Major/Colonel Hanger wrote, that is very important.

“Colonel, now General Tarleton, and myself were standing a few yards out of a wood…..”

Since they were a few yards in front of the wood, this MAY have offered the American Rifleman an aiming point to shoot at and not just “hold over and guess” at elevation.  IOW, there may have been a tree or trees that were tall enough just behind them for the American rifleman to have a SOLID aiming point.  Of course we can’t know for certain that a tree would have been in the right spot to aim at, but if there was such a tree, that would have made even a MORE ideal condition for that shot.
Gus

omark

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #120 on: November 19, 2013, 08:42:29 AM »
i guess it all depends on interpretation. the way i see it, the hit was almost center of mass and i would imagine that may be where the american intended. is it unreasonable to believe that knowing it was an extreme range that he might shoot at the center of mass instead of picking out one officer or the other? either way though, the original question was what is the rifle capable of. the fog of war, wind etc is irrelevant. we are trying to find out what the rifle is capable of under ideal conditions. if the wind is blowing, or the shooters eyes are like mine, has nothing to do with what the rifle can do. of course the most accurate rifle in the world wont perform up to its capabilities under hurricane winds or if the shooter doesnt/cant do his part. mark

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #121 on: November 19, 2013, 08:55:15 AM »
The discussion in this thread is all about accuracy of the Longrifle in war and that includes everything that will cause problems with accuracy.  It is not about what the period Longrifle may have been able to attain in peace time on a target range.  So it is a particular type of accuracy we are discussing..   

Well, I don’t think the American Rifleman was aiming centre of mass between the two targets because IF he got lucky and his ball flew true to that point, it would have automatically meant he would have missed both Officers. 

We will never know which Officer the American had targeted, but if we want to use the centre of mass theory, then he would most likely have aimed for the centre of mass on one Officer only. 
Gus

willyr

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #122 on: November 19, 2013, 02:34:45 PM »
What I was referring to about when the riflemen got closer to "where the war was fought" is that they were in more populated areas where dry goods were more readily available. I would speculate that a serious rifleman would be extremely fussy about his patching material. My reference to my sister's weaving skills was merely to point out that really good cloth could be manufactured at home with a spinning wheel and loom.
    I have been shooting these muzzleloaders exclusively for 41 years and have never carried any kind of measuring instrument into a fabric store. I have always picked out what I needed by feel with the thumb and forefinger-only been fooled once.
     When I finished my .54 caliber rifle thirty years ago, I did some shooting at 300 meters with it just to see what it would do. After two shots to "get the range" I and a friend put 13 of 17 shots into a piece of cardboard that measured 24" X 24". Couldn't do it now- I can't even see 300 meters.
     My overall point is this- The American riflemen of the revolutionary period were most likely pretty fussy about what went down the barrel of their rifle, after all, that rifle was a sizable investment.
     Could every rifleman make 300 yard shots? Probably not. But, I feel reasonably certain that there were some who could.
Be Well,
Bill

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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #123 on: November 19, 2013, 04:15:45 PM »
Good morning Gus,

[Bannastre Tarleton, especially, was probably THE most hated British Officer of the Revolution and one of the most recognized British Officers during the Revolution.]

Personally, I feel Tarleton was the target of that lone rifleman on that day.  However, if he was, I don't know why several riflemen weren't assigned the task?

I believe Hanger's account on distance, because of his background, and he did do a hands on review of where this account took place.

I'm still skeptical of the following, until I can run some test, and won't draw a conclusion one way or the other until I do.  As I said before, I have hit gongs (17" round) at 200 yards offhand, and made consistent hits on that, but a 7" target at an additional 50 yards?  Perhaps from a prone rest position?

[To qualify for service with the company, [Captain John Lowdon’s Company of Northumberland County Riflemen], a rifleman had to fire at and repeatedly hit a seven-inch target at 250 yards, repeatedly]

Always a pleasure to read your posts Gus. :)
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 04:16:20 PM by Candle Snuffer »
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Re: Rifle Accuracy 1776
« Reply #124 on: November 19, 2013, 10:17:46 PM »

     Could every rifleman make 300 yard shots? Probably not. But, I feel reasonably certain that there were some who could.
Be Well,
Bill

Bill,
I can certainly agree with this.  Thanks for the further clarification.
Gus