Don Getz asks Acer about set trigger

[Don Getz]

Acer........you said the triggers area already installed in that lower gun?    Can you post a picture with the triggers in place.
I know about where the sear bar on the lock is located, and your front trigger has to be forward of that.    I wasn't commenting
on the rear curl of the guard.  I am in the process of installing a single lever set trigger in a little Tenn rifle and it has been
a major pain in the neck.  I will be one of those that will require setting the trigger before the lock can be cocked........Don

[Acer Saccharum]

Don, I will work on getting a photo with triggers in place.

The triggers are located such that the lock can be tripped with the front trigger if I choose not to set the triggers. The lock also goes to half cock and full cock without setting the triggers. Trigs can be set before or after cocking the lock.

[greybeard]

[

Hello Don. Trigger to high is most annoying. I have always made my own set triggers and have to  adjust them at times.   You can file some off the main spring toe that rests on the shelf of the rear trigger. Also off the shelf that the spring presses on.  That should get you close. If you can find where the trigger is contacting the sear you can also grind some relief there on the trigger bar as shown in the photo.  Some rehardening may be required.
                                                                                                                                                       Good luck.   Bob Reader

[Don Getz]

Acer........the trigger I am using is one that John got somewhere,   It is a single lever, and the  "lever" is not very high, slightly over 1/8" , so there is not much metal to  be removed.  It works fine if you cock the trigger first, and I guess that is the way
we are going to keep it.  It is strange that when little things like this happen in a gun build, it slows things up.   I'll be happy
to let it lay there for the weekend, maybe that gun fairy will give me a nudge to get back to it on monday.......Don

[Bob Roller]

Those are good looking triggers.

Bob Roller

[Mike Brooks]

Don maybe that gun fairy will give me a nudge to get back to it on monday.......Don

Those fairies seem to be the only ones working in my shop.....too much farming lately. Who would have thought? And, their is still bow hunting and walleye fishing to do. I guess I'll have to retire.

[Acer Saccharum]

Maybe the gun fairy will finish my current rifle so I can get on to the next.....

[Acer Saccharum]

Don, perhaps you could bend up the sear bar a little to give you room for the trigger and lock to work in any position.

Another thing that you can do is limit the set trigger mainspring travel with a set screw under or near the tip end. Screw it in so spring will barely throw the trigger enuff to trip the lock. This relieves some of the spring travel so the spring doesn't hold the trigger up against the sear, keeping it from going into half or full cock.

Can anyone describe this better? I feel like I'm floundering.

[greybeard]

Don, perhaps you could bend up the sear bar a little to give you room for the trigger and lock to work in any position.

Another thing that you can do is limit the set trigger mainspring travel with a set screw under or near the tip end. Screw it in so spring will barely throw the trigger enuff to trip the lock. This relieves some of the spring travel so the spring doesn't hold the trigger up against the sear, keeping it from going into half or full cock.

Can anyone describe this better? I feel like I'm floundering.

You are not floundering and that is a good fix,.    Bob

[KentSmith]

Acer, Don- a Sharps set trigger works with a mainspring adjustment screw as you describe.  It allows you to reduce the tension on the set trigger to just enough to trip the lock but not enough to prevent the lock from entering full cock without the trigger being set.

[Bob Roller]

This type of trigger is common to reproduction Sharps rifles
but as a former owner of a number of originals,I have never seen
it one of these.

Bob Roller

[Captchee]

   I would do just what Acer recommends .  Like Kent stated the sharps triggers   have such an adjustment.  The only real problem I can see that  you may have with the adjustment screw would be your trigger guard .
 With the sharps  as you drop the block , the TG moves out of the way  of the screw is easily adjusted . But that’s not going to be the case with a pinned guard .
 But one could always  adjust it , then lock tight the screw to keep it from backing out ..
 If the case ends up being that the style of the TG doesn’t allow for the screw placement , you could always use  a screw without a head  and set it so it flush with the trigger  plate .
 It shouldn’t take much adjustment  past a couple turns . Thus the trigger plate thickness should be thick enough to allow for  far adjustment then needed .

  For some reason and maybe it just my memory . But it seems to me that  today the trigger bar just seem to be getting larger and larger . (Larger being taller from the  engagement notch ).
 Thus when set up with the trigger spring lock down tight  , they end up holding the sear out of the  full cock .. . It becomes a catch 22 as if you don’t inlet the triggers  deep enough you end up with a fat bellied gun . But if you do  inlet them to  give good lines , then you end up with   this problem .
 
So often times I end up shimming the trigger spring  by placing a small shim with a hole in it under  the spring   then placing the spring screw though it . That combined with what greybeard was showing . IE taking the rear trigger bar down  

[Captchee]

This type of trigger is common to reproduction Sharps rifles
but as a former owner of a number of originals,I have never seen
it one of these.

Bob Roller

 agreed bob . but also  the reproduction triggers are heavier then the originals . at least IMO
 that combined with more downward angle to the sear  creates the need  for the additional adjustment .
 I also think it’s a way to allow for  lesser tolerances  then were aloud in the original sharps  manufacturing .
IE its almost a fix that  isn’t really needed if  everything is built to work together as it should .
 It also provides for an addition option for those folks who  for what ever reasoning want to set  the trigger prior to cocking .
 Myself I never really understood that   reasoning but . Some folks want it that way

[Bob Roller]

Captchee,
A range officer that is alert will NOT allow any rifle on the line that
has a trigger that must be set before the lock can be cocked.
Back in the 1990's,I was making double set triggers and single sets for the #1 rolling block actions
and I always split the full and half cock notches with a milling machine and a 1/16" saw and
then installed a "fly". The triggers were always made to fire off of either trigger and the hammer
could be cocked without setting the trigger. The single set could be set before cocking but the
first movement of the hammer from the resting position would trip the trigger and it would go into half cock
on its own.
Another maker was offering a DST but no fly in the hammer so the recommendation was to grind the half cock off the hammer or set the trigger before cocking.

Bob Roller

[Acer Saccharum]

Gotta have a fly if you're using a set trigger.

It's an unsafe setup if the triggers have to be set before cocking the gun. A person new to the gun could easily have a mis-hap at the range.

Set triggers that bear against the sear when unset are also a safety hazard in this regard: the rear trigger is pushing against the sear. When the lock is brought to half cock, the sear might not be fully engaged in the notch. The gun can fire from this position with just a nudge or bump.

I know you're not supposed to load with the frizzen shut and the gun on half cock. But there are folks who don't. Those are the ones you have to build for.

[Captchee]

 while i hear you bob .
we dont have  ,,,well i should say , the vast majority  dont shoot at ranges back here .
 Often times those that do , do so at public ranges  which consist  of little more then a gravel pits with a burm and some post driven in to as to hang targets on ..
 I could literally drive  I bet 300 miles and have a chose of 2 ranges .  Both of those are in boise . One is an indoor range and the other a out door range . The out door range is a club range  and the indoor range is a business  that sells guns . That would exclude trap clubs  of which there are many .
So
 just about any wide spot  with a good back stop , well away from people will do. when it comes to events , well lets just say NMLRA doesn’t hold the power , reputation  or consideration  back here  that it does back east .  frankly IMO not a bad thing either . But that’s another topic for another day and since we no longer talk politics  on this site  it would be impossible to discuss the topic  wouldn’t it .


 
as to being un safe or not ? well that depends really . most certainly you wouldn’t want one on a hunting gun . but for target guns , im seeing more and more set up just that way .

frankly , i dont see it any more unsafe then someone who over adjusts their double set  to the point where if a mouse !@#$% 20 ft away , the gun will go off Or for that mater a pistol where you cock it then have to fumble to push a set trigger forward .
 in either case  the set up can be just as un safe .
IMO what is unsafe is  relying on a ½ cock notch  in any way .  Frankly the gun should not be cocked  until such time as the barrel is down range  or a person is preparing to shoot  with the muzzle in the direction they intend to shoot But then that’s my opinion

Again while I don’t prefer that set up , thinking on the safety option of that set up , I would have to say I have seen far more double set  go off accidentally a lot of times as people are raising them to their shoulders .
So really both types can be just as unsafe when not set up properly  be it setting the trigger prior to  cocking or setting the trigger after cocking .
don’t forget that  even a properly  set up double bar , double set , can be set , cock or un cocked . 
 You do realize that people do it both ways .

The single set could be set before cocking but the
first movement of the hammer from the resting position would trip the trigger and it would go into half cock
on its own.

 ok ill have to admitt here that you lost me with that .
 the only way i can see that happening is if the trigger bar is higher then the  bottom of the sear hole . IE when the sear drops down in the cocking movement , it comes in contact with the trigger bar .
 however if the trigger  bar is even with or lower then the sear hole , there is no way that the sear can contact the  trigger bar in any way  as it cant go lower then the sear hole .

which brings us back to Dons trigger issue .
 if i understand him correctly ,  when the lock is cocked  it wont catch the full cock .
 In my mind im seeing the trigger bar being up into the sear hole . With the trigger spring being stronger then the sear spring , the sear cant provide enough leverage  to push the trigger bar down enough so as to let the sear engage the full cock . IE the trigger bar  has enough resistance to hold the  sear out of the  full cock notch  even though it may or may not allow him to cock to the ½ cock .
  If that’s the case then  there are two options  that I can see . Both of which we talked about
1) reduce the  resistance of the trigger spring
2)   reduce the height of the trigger bar to such a point that  it allows the sear free movement through the cocking arch. Which is what greybeard suggested .

 Now as to a set trigger  needing a  tumbler with a fly . that’s not necessarily true
 Now its been some 25 years but  I  recall a  European sporting rifle coming into the MOI  that had set triggers but did not have a fly on the lock . I want to say the name on the loc was Alexander Williams ,,, Welcomes or something of the sort . As I recall the rifle was in very poor shape .  What I do clearly remember was that  we at first thought that  the lock had been changed at some time because there was no fly on the tumbler .
 Ironically the lock  would not engage  the half or the full  cock notches unless you  set the trigger prior to cocking . When that happened the trigger bar set below the sear hole and did not obstruct the sear  travel through the cocking arch 
  This was also  a single bar type of double set . What we finally figure out was that  the lock was indeed the original lock . How it worked was that  do to the  weight of the trigger spring  once the trigger was set  and the lock cocked  and the front trigger pulled  , the weight of that spring  not only disengaged the sear from the full cock , but it held the sear clear of the notches just as  a shooters finger does when shooting a pivoting trigger type. IE there was no need for a fly on the tumbler as the sear did not ride along the tumbler at all  when the lock was fired .
 I remember thing how odd that was as up until then I had never seen a set trigger on a   rifle , without having a lock with a fly on the tumbler     

[Captchee]

very True Acer .
 but lets not forget that  while we know better today , for a very long time , exspecialy concerning millitary drills , it was the order of  loading to not only have the lock cocked  and the frizzen closed but also to have the pan primed .
 which would also have been done with self priming  type locks  would it not ?

seems like a rather scarry idea  doesnt it . but that doesnt change the fact that its they way it was done .
 kinda makes you wonder about those bright  master minds  LOL

[Bob Roller]

The single set trigger on a rolling block action is in an entirely different mechanical environment
than one on a muzzle loader.Totally different mechanism.

Bob Roller

[Captchee]

The single set trigger on a rolling block action is in an entirely different mechanical environment
than one on a muzzle loader.Totally different mechanism.

Bob Roller

ok , gotcha  . I wasnt following what you were speaking of

[Acer Saccharum]

If the sear bar taps the set triggers while cocking, it can make the triggers trip. Just the snapping of the sear into the full cock notch can cause a finely set trigger to release. Boom!

If the triggers cause the sear to move while setting, it can cause a premature firing.



I agree with you Captchee that many target guns were built without a halfcock notch. As long as the gun will never be carried afield, then I see no problem with that. A 20lb gun is pretty safe to say that you won't be climbing over a fence line with it.



I have also seen set trigger guns fire unexpectedly at the range. People use some pretty awful junk at the range. Shooting one of these guns is like driving a car with a tie rod that keeps falling off. Just gotta keep a fresh piece of baling wire in the glove box. The driver is putting himself and everyone else on the road at risk.

I've seen people with perc gun drums that have to be positioned 'just so' before firing. I move all my stuff to their left, and advise everyone downhill of the drum to do the same.

Safety is a group effort.

[Captchee]

If the sear bar taps the set triggers while cocking, it can make the triggers trip. Just the snapping of the sear into the full cock notch can cause a finely set trigger to release. Boom!

If the triggers cause the sear to move while setting, it can cause a premature firing.

  agreed , but  isn’t both of these really the case of the trigger set being inlet to deep to begin with .
Which often times IMO is done so as to keep the gun slim . Which  is as it should be . But  it  then creates the  complications do to the  increased thickness of  if the trigger bars .
 
 Now granted , maybe I been doing it wrong all these years , but I don’t inlet set triggers the same way as i do a single pivoted trigger .
 With a double set , I set the triggers  to where they don’t contact the  sear  in any way when set . IE they are   just below the bottom of the sear hole .
 When unset , this places the rear trigger bar up  and   slightly  in the way of the sear .  so you have to set the triggers in order to place the lock into the mortise..
 Once the lock is in place I then check  and see if the sear solidly engages the  full and half cock .
 If it doesn’t ,  remove the triggers and  thin down the trigger bar .
IF I still feel like the  triggers , when unset , are still holding the sear from full engagement, I then lighten the trigger main spring pressure by  loosening the trigger main spring screw  only to the point  it  allows the  sear to engage , yet still provide enough pressure to trip the sear once set  . I then  make a shim  of the proper thickness . Place it under the trigger spring and tighten the  trigger main spring down fully  .
 Now if by chance I can adjust the  spring tension to the point  it wont allow engagement of the sear while at the same time providing enough pressure to the trigger bar to  trip the sear when fired . Then And ONLY then do I  try and bend the sear bar .
 Myself Im rather anal about bending the sear bar .  frankly  for me its one of those last resort type of things that  i try to go out of the way not to do .

 but anyway , what happens is  when set , at no point does or can the sear contact the trigger bars . Any and all movement of  setting the triggers , produces a movement away from the sear . Any movement of the sear  during the cocking arch  does not produce contact  with the trigger bars  and thus  cannot  trip the triggers.  Unless again the triggers were  adjusted to the point they are unsafe  and they trip . In which case its not the sear that tripped the triggers but   gun movement which is a problem regardless of how one sets up the triggers. It’s a problem of improper trigger adjustment .

 Some years ago ?? I think it was 2004 maybe 2005 . Manufactures of the Lyman rifles sent out a  notice that  the adjustment screw for their trigger sets needed to be replaced .  As I understand it  this was do to  reports and complaints  that   to many rifles were accidentally firing  either during the cocking process or  shortly after .
Their fix was to ether replace the adjustment screw with a shorter screw or  reduce the existing length of the adjustment screw  so as to make it impossible to adjust the  engagement of the trigger notches to the point  the gun would prematurely fire . One  cant even  adjust it to the point the triggers wont engage  each other . Newer lymans produced after that date , have the shorter adjustment screw

[Mike Brooks]

I'm still thinkin' going fishin' would be the best solution.

[Captchee]

naa mike , the steelhead aren’t running really well just yet . soon though 
Should be out elk hunting

[chumney]

This is a very timely subject.  I was having an issue with a trigger and sear fit causing the hammer to fall at unexpected times.  Now, I know to file back the trigger bar and some of the sear bar until it does not fit so tight. May have a little take up, but for safety, it is worth it. Thank you for the information.

[Acer Saccharum]

It's far better to resolve trigger problems BEFORE the lock and trigger are inlet. I only recently discovered this concept, after many trials and errors, that some of the problems won't go away if you don't plan the function out on paper.

That said, maybe we all can come up with some sketches and discussion that we can formulate into a tutorial.

T