Author Topic: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building  (Read 47614 times)

Offline t.caster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3730
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #50 on: March 27, 2014, 08:05:35 PM »
I have read all these posts with great interest, trying to figure out the mindset of those builders who visit here. Well, it runs the gamut!
Going back to the first page of this thread, John Bivins classification was brought up, and I have no problem saying I fit squarely in #2. I still find great satisfaction recreating a piece that "looks like" it came out a given builders shop back in the late 18th century. Not exactly (dimensionally) like an original, but let's say "from the hand or shop" of a Beck or Dickert or Schroyer or Hachen, etc. It is very hard and disciplined work to do and maybe that is why so many turned away from it early on. Besides my attempts at artwork are not that creative as far as dreaming up something NEW. But I can draw or recreate in wood almost anything I can see.
I also choose not to receate a 21st century piece, because my customers want something that looks like it's from the 18th century, like there clothes, accoutrements and camp gear, etc.
Make sense?
Tom C.

galamb

  • Guest
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #51 on: March 27, 2014, 08:22:45 PM »

I also choose not to receate a 21st century piece, because my customers want something that looks like it's from the 18th century, like there clothes, accoutrements and camp gear, etc.
Make sense?

The only thing that strikes me odd with that statement, and I'm not directing it specifically at you but at the re-enactors in general.

They are (pretending) to be in the 1700's/1800's (which ever), the clothing is period correct and looks like "Ma" just finished sewing it by hand. Likewise their tools and accessories are right out of the period, look like they were maybe made by the local blacksmith or bought, imported, to one of the hardware stores.

Yet, when it comes to their gun/rifle it has been artificially aged 200 years.

I just don't get that part of it. If it's supposed to be 1700-1800 should it look "new".

I just can't see someone, back in the day, walking in to Dickert's or Armstrong's shop and saying - yes, I would like that rifle but can you make it look 200 years old...

Offline t.caster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3730
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #52 on: March 27, 2014, 09:36:10 PM »
Galamb, I agree, it doesn't add up.
But MOST guys I know, want a gun that looks "seasoned" a couple years. You walk into camp with a new shiny, polished up rifle and you take a LOT of ribbing it seems. Same goes with shiny new buckskins or a white shirt. My current build is like Jon Shreiht's 1760 rifle (RCA-18), so if I age it 2 yrs. it's still OK for a F&I or Pre-Rev character. You age it 100-200 yrs. and most guns would no longer be shootable!
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 07:54:30 PM by t.caster »
Tom C.

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #53 on: March 27, 2014, 09:37:45 PM »

I also choose not to receate a 21st century piece, because my customers want something that looks like it's from the 18th century, like there clothes, accoutrements and camp gear, etc.
Make sense?

The only thing that strikes me odd with that statement, and I'm not directing it specifically at you but at the re-enactors in general.

They are (pretending) to be in the 1700's/1800's (which ever), the clothing is period correct and looks like "Ma" just finished sewing it by hand. Likewise their tools and accessories are right out of the period, look like they were maybe made by the local blacksmith or bought, imported, to one of the hardware stores.

Yet, when it comes to their gun/rifle it has been artificially aged 200 years.

I just don't get that part of it. If it's supposed to be 1700-1800 should it look "new".

I just can't see someone, back in the day, walking in to Dickert's or Armstrong's shop and saying - yes, I would like that rifle but can you make it look 200 years old...

LOL.  Yes, Galamb, we reenactors are sometimes unpredictable, quirky and even sometimes downright contradictory as you put so well.  

I've been a reenactor for almost 40 years from the French and Indian War, Rev War, War of 1812 and War Between the States.  I also see no point in aging a firearm or any other gear to look any older than it would have looked in the time period I portray and of course how old and perhaps worn it naturally would have been then.  It is totally contradictory to what reenactors are supposed to do, IMO.  

Since the 70's, there is a great deal of new/old information that has become easily accessible and items have become more and more authentic and that's a very good thing to my thoughts.  Yet I also understand our pocket books will allow very few people to be totally "authentic" to the period, if that is even possible, which it probably is not and will never be due to the fact things we use will almost never be how they were actually made in the period.  For example, I doubt anyone today will take beaver pelts and use Mercury to separate the finer hair to make the best beaver felt for hats.  Another example is while I have always strived to get period correct eyeglasses, I have no problem with getting my prescription lenses put in them.  

As to period correct guns, only a very few of us can afford to have a gun built exactly like it was done in the early to late 18th century.  Back in the 70's, I started telling fellow reenactors (who were what I considered overly demanding) that if someone like Wallace Gusler did not hand make their gun, it was not authentic no matter how good it looked.  In the 70's, I used a Navy Arms Brown Bess Carbine to portray a Continental Marine Sergeant while knowing it was not a "correct" Sergeant's Fusil.  However, no one was even making a correct repro lock for one then and buying an original or having one totally handmade was out of the question.  In the 70's and early 80's, I used my Old Flint Rifle for reenacting French and Indian War and Rev War even though it is a Golden Age Rifle, because that was as close as I could afford.  I retired that gun from reenacting those periods in the late 80's, though.  Yet even in the early 2000's, I occasionally reenacted French and Indian War Period with my Perdersoli Short Land Pattern Musket that did not come out until a few years after the war.  Sure, I would have loved to have had a P1742 made from a Rifle Shop or TOW kit, but I just could not afford one for how little French and Indian War reenacting I was ever going to do.  Making and buying and replacing items to keep as correct an impression as possible for a Private Soldier in the 42nd Royal Highland Infantry Regiment, The Black Watch, and for the Rev War is expensive enough as it is.  GRIN.  

Today we are blessed with an exceedingly wider range of reproduction locks, barrels and furniture than we even dreamed about in the 70's.  That makes it much easier to be "as historically correct as possible" than ever before, yet we will never be totally authentic.  

Bottom line, I'm the type of reenactor who LOVES rifles and guns that look like they could come out of an 18th century shop or Arsenal, but does not have to be an exact copy of any one original rifle.  I also don't care if modern machines were used to make them and I certainly don't care if the screw threads are hand cut or even correct TPI for the period.  I applaud those who try to follow a certain school or builder and make their guns as close as possible to the style and some variation was normal back then, so why not now, as long as they are keeping generally true to the period and style?!!.
Gus

.  

 

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2014, 09:48:13 PM »
Galamb, I agree, it doesn't add up.
But MOST guys I know, want a gun that looks "seasoned" a couple years. You walk into camp with a new shiny, polished up rifle and you take a LOT of ribbing it seems. Same goes with shiny new buckskins or a white shirt. My current build is like Jon Shreight's 1760 rifle (RCA-18), so if I age it 2 yrs. it's still OK for a F&I or Pre-Rev character. You age it 100-200 yrs. and most guns would no longer be shootable!

Excellent point. 

Even with British Rev War Military reenactors, who often at least try to follow at least some of the standards of care, cleaning and polishing demanded in the 18th century British Army in Garrison - one of the first things we suggest people do is clean them with as correct materials as possible to take off that "new" look when they get a new musket. 
Gus

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2014, 10:59:43 PM »
Quote
But MOST guys I know, want a gun that looks "seasoned" a couple years. You walk into camp with a new shiny, polished up rifle and you take a LOT of ribbing it seems. Same goes with shiny new buckskins or a white shirt. My current build is like Jon Shreight's 1760 rifle (RCA-18), so if I age it 2 yrs. it's still OK for a F&I or Pre-Rev character. You age it 100-200 yrs. and most guns would no longer be shootable!
Depends on the user. I have read a carolina guns usefulness as a gun averaged about two years. I personally used to do 30+ weekend events a year. the gun I carried over those years was near worn out with wear from the elements alone let alone the amount of shooting I did. The guy living out on the edge used guns up in a short period of time.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Ric27

  • Guest
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2014, 05:54:15 AM »
Historical Correctness has a place in living history event participation. I'm mean that is the point of that kind of activity. So gun building for a customer or yourself to portray a longhunter in the early 1770s you need a gun that would be of that era and remembering that those men were not wealthy so you might keep that in mind when planing the embellishments. On the other hand building a gun to please yourself or a customer that wants nice gun the shoots well or looks good hanging over the fireplace then you have a very lot of leeway. So being left to our own devices it is really the ability to apply sound architectural principles to the design. Training and practice will augment the limiting factor which is talent. Anyone can get better with training and practice but is held to a level by aptitude. That said a guy that studies architecture and understands that design is far more important  than craftsmanship will go further towards the kind of guns I enjoy seeing than someone that can carve the most perfect c scrolls, engrave like a silversmith and run silver wire by the mile but does not quite know how a lock mortise should transition into the wrist and for-stock.          
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 05:56:30 AM by Ric27 »

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4473
    • Personal Website
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2014, 01:01:05 AM »
The way I see things is that the one big thing that differentiates builders is the importance of historical correctness.  That is how you prioritize historical correctness versus creativity.  These can be completely compatible, but often are not.  Personally I favor a look, appeal etc. over following exactly what may have been done in the past.  It's hard for me to repeat things that I don't find appealing.  Design and style are super important in my work.  With that said, I understand and appreciate other approaches, even if they might not work well for me. 

Glad everyone enjoyed the topic.  I know I did.

kaintuck

  • Guest
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2014, 01:49:08 AM »
Haveing a aged gun seems normal to me....used not abused. "It fits the time era". As I see it, nice patina and wear marks, are the same as worn blue jeans today. We all have our center fire guns, and they have 'wear' on them  ;)
I have a 'Sunday go to meeting' suit and shoes....but out in the woods, everything is aged....oops....I mean used looking, from my shoes to the rifle....leather gear gets good only after it broken in.....and IF you ever get a chance to ride a horse with a brand new saddle....at the end of the day.....you will want to trade for the old well worn used saddle ;D

So....yup, I say a nice rifle is one with character on it....the wood smoothed and stain from carry, and the small scratches from bushes and banging against canteens or camp gear.....

It's all in the eye of the beholder......
Marc

Online Clark Badgett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2259
  • Oklahoma
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2014, 03:30:39 AM »
Haveing a aged gun seems normal to me....used not abused. "It fits the time era". As I see it, nice patina and wear marks, are the same as worn blue jeans today. We all have our center fire guns, and they have 'wear' on them  ;)


Wear yes, but not 200 years worth of wear. Our clothing and firearms are more easily cared for now than then. Soldiers now have no problem getting 6 months to a year of usage from their uniforms, uniforms back then were aloted to last 30-90 days in field usage, boots 30 days.

I have a 'Sunday go to meeting' suit and shoes....but out in the woods, everything is aged....oops....I mean used looking, from my shoes to the rifle....leather gear gets good only after it broken in.....and IF you ever get a chance to ride a horse with a brand new saddle....at the end of the day.....you will want to trade for the old well worn used saddle ;D

Back then they had maybe 3 sets of clothing if they were fortunate. I feel that way about every saddle I ride in, new or used.

So....yup, I say a nice rifle is one with character on it....the wood smoothed and stain from carry, and the small scratches from bushes and banging against canteens or camp gear.....

And this character should be earned honestly not faked.

It's all in the eye of the beholder......
Marc

My opines in maroon
Psalms 144

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2014, 04:06:29 AM »
What's better art: a Rembrandt or a Picasso?

You may like Rembrandt for six perfectly sound reasons.

The next guy likes Picasso for six perfectly sound reasons.

Who's wrong?

Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2014, 06:28:20 AM »
 The worst thing that I can imagine is for all guns to look the same . There are too many the same now.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Captchee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 768
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2014, 05:15:57 PM »
What's better art: a Rembrandt or a Picasso?
You may like Rembrandt for six perfectly sound reasons.
The next guy likes Picasso for six perfectly sound reasons.
Who's wrong?

 Neither is wrong .  Because both are completely different
 Both also broke from the norm  and thus became distinctly individually recognized .

 So I guess Acer , the real question would then be  one of  would we know either  if they had restricted themselves to only recreating in exact detail  the works of those they held on high . Most likely not   thus the world would be without  2 of the greatest artists in history

 IMO what  a lot of us do  however is  maintain a given form  , lets say following the Baroque style of Rembrandt . Yet at the same time not  copying  exactly his work  thus its different  and individually distinctive ,but still  Baroque

Offline Kermit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3099
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2014, 05:44:40 PM »
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2014, 07:10:47 PM »
 Everything evolves.  There are two constants in the universe. One is the speed of light and the other is change. That is why stopping climate change is such of a phony issue. Change cannot be stopped.
  Every great artist was different in his time. Presley was different. Ricky Scaggs, Boutet, Melchoir Fortney The list is long
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

kaintuck

  • Guest
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2014, 09:49:29 PM »
What's better art: a Rembrandt or a Picasso?

You may like Rembrandt for six perfectly sound reasons.

The next guy likes Picasso for six perfectly sound reasons.

Who's wrong?
A Rembrandt painting of Megan Fox....now that would be correct.
 ;D


I like old marlin rifles...and IF I 'cleaned' one up~devalued~ but then again IF I have a prestine one and shot it...devalued! :P

no absolutes......we all just like what we like....but NOT a Picasso.....Megan deserves better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Offline mark esterly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 408
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #66 on: April 01, 2014, 01:16:27 AM »
I personally do not think a picasso is art
living in the hope of HIS coming.......

Offline Osprey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1355
  • Roaming Delmarva...
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #67 on: April 01, 2014, 01:46:23 AM »
Depends on the user. I have read a carolina guns usefulness as a gun averaged about two years. I personally used to do 30+ weekend events a year. the gun I carried over those years was near worn out with wear from the elements alone let alone the amount of shooting I did. The guy living out on the edge used guns up in a short period of time.

Heck, I've completely wore out a modern machined Rem shotgun over the past 20 years, including two barrels and two forestocks, and that's just with 40-60 days of waterfowling each season.  Hard to imagine the abuse a gun would have taken on the frontier in the 1700's out in the elements most days and nights and how quickly it would look abused.
"Any gun built is incomplete until it takes game!"

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #68 on: April 01, 2014, 01:48:34 AM »
Depends on the user. I have read a carolina guns usefulness as a gun averaged about two years. I personally used to do 30+ weekend events a year. the gun I carried over those years was near worn out with wear from the elements alone let alone the amount of shooting I did. The guy living out on the edge used guns up in a short period of time.

Heck, I've completely wore out a modern machined Rem shotgun over the past 20 years, including two barrels and two forestocks, and that's just with 40-60 days of waterfowling each season.  Hard to imagine the abuse a gun would have taken on the frontier in the 1700's out in the elements most days and nights and how quickly it would look abused.
my point exactly, thank you. ;D
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline PPatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2456
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #69 on: April 01, 2014, 01:48:54 AM »
What's better art: a Rembrandt or a Picasso?

You may like Rembrandt for six perfectly sound reasons.

The next guy likes Picasso for six perfectly sound reasons.

Who's wrong?

Wrong? Not Michelangelo da Caravaggio!

dp
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #70 on: April 01, 2014, 02:03:29 AM »
Oh, boy. I need a new analogy.

Likes and dislikes cannot be argued (successfully*).


*we do excel at arguing over things that have no right answer.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #71 on: April 01, 2014, 04:49:44 AM »
Depends on the user. I have read a carolina guns usefulness as a gun averaged about two years. I personally used to do 30+ weekend events a year. the gun I carried over those years was near worn out with wear from the elements alone let alone the amount of shooting I did. The guy living out on the edge used guns up in a short period of time.

Heck, I've completely wore out a modern machined Rem shotgun over the past 20 years, including two barrels and two forestocks, and that's just with 40-60 days of waterfowling each season.  Hard to imagine the abuse a gun would have taken on the frontier in the 1700's out in the elements most days and nights and how quickly it would look abused.
If you treated a flintlock the same way you treated the 870  its not going to shoot. Letting it get wet for example.
So if out on the frontier with a lot of people around who will kill you for what you have or just for fun you need to keep the flintlock is shooting condition. Covers were far more common that people might think I suspect. Everyone in the west used them. There is a surviving full length cover with the Dickert in "Moravian Gun Making".
I posted some photos of a late percussion rifle recently. From the wear on the locks bridle its likely been shot a lot Its not beat all to heck though it has scars. It has the varnish worn off in the high wear areas but other than that its in pretty good shape.
And I know modern FLs that have seen a lot of use, foot and horseback. These do not look like the "aged" guns unless the owner has aged them. But of course the la-la land people who really don't use stuff but wanna look like they do don't like to hear it. My Dad has a something in the range of 40+ year old 742 Remington. I don't think even he knows how many deer, elk and after he moved North, Caribou and Moose its killed. He homesteaded in AK with it trapping in the winter. He used to kill Caribou for other homesteaders who lacked the skills to be homesteaders.  Lots of snowmachine miles too I suspect. It look pretty worn but its really been used. But he is not known for taking care of things either.  If I get to AK this summer I will take some photos.
I suppose people could look to the Haymaker rifle. It was brought back after its owner was killed in Kentucky. Used for years afterwards. The lock removed, maybe so the kids could play with it in its old age. Yeah it shows wear. But I bet it looks a lot more worn now that is did the day the natives killed its original owner in 1774 (IIRC).
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19533
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #72 on: April 01, 2014, 02:48:17 PM »
Should we split this into a discussion of the merits of aging, or stick to the topic of creativity?  We can split it easily if that's the main topic now.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #73 on: April 01, 2014, 02:53:22 PM »
Should we split this into a discussion of the merits of aging, or stick to the topic of creativity?  We can split it easily if that's the main topic now.
Aging is a large part of creativity and belongs in this conversation. We already know who likes it and who doesn't so maybe we don't need to rehash that part of it.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Creativity and Historical Correctness in gun building
« Reply #74 on: April 01, 2014, 03:33:52 PM »
I have to agree with Mike for once, aging my guns is part of the creative process. I am experimenting with it; gun aging I compare to painting, adding color and distress, layer by layer, until I achieve the right tonality and look. It's all subjective, personal, challenging and very enjoyable.

Some guns I like to build as new. Try as I like, I can't keep them from aging.  :D

Either way, for me, history comes first. Books, museums, research, hands-on study, are all tools for building a gun, just as chisels, rasps, scrapers and paint are tools(and tire irons and chains-for Mike Brooks).
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 03:38:25 PM by Acer Saccharum »
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.