carving area not cleaned up

[snapper]

Why do some gunmakers leave the stock carvings not cleaned up?  It would not take much extra time to get rid of the rough surface or even to clean the finish out of these areas.  IMO it makes an other wise work of art look like $#@*.

Fleener

[Mark Elliott]

I think this might be a matter of perspective or degree, and it is impossible to know the level of work you find objectionable.   That said, the backgrounds in traditional carving were not cleaned up the way we might expect today.   They were left as the chisel left them.   As a general rule,  I build my guns to 18th or 19th century standards and not 21st century standards.   That means leaving backgrounds a little uneven, just as you carved them.   If I can easily get a scraper in around the edges and clean up a bit, I will, but not to look like I took sandpaper to it.    I use the best 18th century work as my guide.   The best work is outstanding, but it isn't machine perfect.   Again, it is hard to comment without seeing what you are seeing. 

[rich pierce]

A lot of originals we get to see are pretty worn and so it can be challenging to see what they looked like new. However, looking at any Bonewitz rifle, the background of his carving is pretty clean.  The degree of difficulty in cleaning background may depend also on how high the relief carving is.

[smylee grouch]

Been working on some carving and trying to clean it up but in some areas where I might have scraped too aggressively, against the grain, or with a dull scraper, it can be frustrating. I think I need to sharpen my scrappers, need lessons, need to see more originals, and a host of other things not the least of which is a cold beer.

[JTR]

Might help to know if you're referring to modern made (since it's here in the Builders section) or antique rifles.
Do you have any pictures of examples you'd care to share?
John

[snapper]

I am make reference to modern made rifles.

Thanks

Fleener

[conquerordie]

I think it comes down to what the builder is trying to accomplish. Trying to create that "workman like finish of the 1700's" or the " better than the original builders could dream of finish"  seen on some rifle today varies from gun to gun and builder to builder. You may think it looks like *#&!;#/%&, but others might see it the way it should be. Besides now just like then you have different talent levels. Everybody starts somewhere.
Greg

[bob in the woods]

I think a definition of "not cleaned up" is in order. Honestly, a sharp chisel cut looks pretty clean to me.

[Acer Saccharum]

Jim Kibler's work would suffice as the definition of cleaned up.

[flehto]

Most carving on contemporary LRs has "cleaned up" backgrounds....perhaps the present day customers demand that? I could imagine that a rough carving background would be construed by some customers as shoddy workmanship....many don't have historical info that would "justify" a rough background?  I wouldn't be satisfied selling one of my LRs w/ even a so-so  background because a " reputation" for sloppy work might be the result....Fred

[Acer Saccharum]

In my opinion, modern replica carving should look well done, accomplished in a workmanlike manner. Tool marks can be present, as long as they don't distract from the overall look. You will find contemporary builders' carving that varies from perfect to 'darned good, with visible tool marks'.

From the original question, Snapper, it sounds like you may be thinking of a particular gun you've seen somewhere. If it's your gun, I can offer suggestions. If it's not your work, I won't discuss it on line.

[Mike Brooks]

Personally, I like tool marks to a degree.

[Bob Roller]

In my opinion, modern replica carving should look well done, accomplished in a workmanlike manner. Tool marks can be present, as long as they don't distract from the overall look. You will find contemporary builders' carving that varies from perfect to 'darned good, with visible tool marks'.

Tool marks are common and the end result is a by product.

Bob Roller

[conquerordie]

Most carving on contemporary LRs has "cleaned up" backgrounds....perhaps the present day customers demand that? I could imagine that a rough carving background would be construed by some customers as shoddy workmanship....many don't have historical info that would "justify" a rough background?  I wouldn't be satisfied selling one of my LRs w/ even a so-so  background because a " reputation" for sloppy work might be the result....Fred

That's where education is so important. I learn so much from everyone in this site, it would be a shame if only builders are learning and buyers are just buying something and not truly understanding what the rifles where historically and what they can be today. Ignorance is not bliss.
Greg

[Acer Saccharum]

I like to see the hand of the maker in the work. The older I get, the more 'hand' there is. I'm becoming more discerning about what's important an what's not.

[smart dog]

Hi,
I am in Acer's camp.  While sipping some of Tom's good scotch whiskey during Dixon's, we all got to chatting about a similar topic. I mentioned the Japanese aesthetic philosophy of "Wabi Sabi" (no fooling, that is what it is called).  Essentially it says all things made by man are never finished, never perfect, and do not last forever.  The philosophy upholds a very high standard of craftsmanship and a striving for perfection but also encourages a craftsman to leave some evidence of human frailty and imperfection in his work.  Those imperfections are the human connection separating the work from that made by machine. 

dave

[Mike Brooks]

Most carving on contemporary LRs has "cleaned up" backgrounds....perhaps the present day customers demand that? I could imagine that a rough carving background would be construed by some customers as shoddy workmanship....many don't have historical info that would "justify" a rough background?  I wouldn't be satisfied selling one of my LRs w/ even a so-so  background because a " reputation" for sloppy work might be the result....Fred

That's where education is so important. I learn so much from everyone in this site, it would be a shame if only builders are learning and buyers are just buying something and not truly understanding what the rifles where historically and what they can be today. Ignorance is not bliss.
Greg

Ignorance may not be bliss, but ignorance is awfully common!

[Acer Saccharum]

Educate, from the Latin: "bring out, lead forth," from ex- "out"+ ducere "to lead"

To be in anything seriously, one must take the responsibility of their education upon themselves. Education can only be offered. You cannot educate me if I don't want to be educated, or am too lazy, or don't care.

This longrifle business is a passion for so many of us. We take it seriously. We also have a hard time with those who don't take this seriously.

There is a world of difference between a new builder who seeks to do better, and a builder who does not care. I will bend over backwards for the first, and not give the latter a second thought.

[Mike Brooks]

Educate, from the Latin: "bring out, lead forth," from ex- "out"+ ducere "to lead"

To be in anything seriously, one must take the responsibility of their education upon themselves. Education can only be offered. You cannot educate me if I don't want to be educated, or am too lazy, or don't care.

This longrifle business is a passion for so many of us. We take it seriously. We also have a hard time with those who don't take this seriously.

There is a world of difference between a new builder who seeks to do better, and a builder who does not care. I will bend over backwards for the first, and not give the latter a second thought.

Yea.....I never quite got over the "Bullard" rifle not being built by "Bullard". But that's the way it is....

[oldtravler61]

Every time I do anything I learn. With every goof I learn. I learn more from repairing my mistakes. Than anything else.

[PPatch]

Smart Dog I too am with Acer on this subject. Unless there is something gross going on with a background an otherwise workmanlike job looks fine to my eye. One can tell honest work from the other.

dave

[okieboy]

"To be in anything seriously, one must take the responsibility of their education upon themselves."

 Very well said. Thank you Acer.

[Tenn Hills Guy]

Just seems to me if it 'looks' hand made, probably was.  If it looks machine made, probably was.  I like to think a man actually put some sweat into my old guns. Even my Lugers, if you look, one can find hand work.  Just another opinion.

[snapper]

Dave

I agree, and follow the thinking that what is made by man is not perfect.  I can point out all the flaws in anything that I make.

It just seems odd that someone would put in a lot of hours and not make it as nice as you can.  The rest of the rifle is knock dead perfect, just lack of detail to some of these small areas.

There are rifles that have pictures posted here that also looks like that the builder got sloppy with the stock finish in these areas.  You can see it in the corners.

Not throwing stones, just wondering if there was a good reason.

Acer, I did send you a private message.

Fleener

[smart dog]

Hi Snapper,
You have a good eye.  I have to admit that I struggle with finish build up in the corners of carving on every gun I build.  I have never found a really good way to deal with it except to apply finish very thinly and slowly.  Even then dust, particles, and finish still thicken in the corners and I rub them vigorously with a stiff natural bristle brush.  That helps a lot but I can never remove all of the buildup everywhere.  Certainly, this is almost no issue if I produce a low sheen "in-the-wood" oil finish, but on most guns I build, I am using or trying to emulate an oil-varnish finish, which can lead to build up.  Another factor that plagues me, Snapper, is lighting.  I have good lighting but you really have to work that lighting to see imperfections in the wood surface from carving and shaping, especially on light colored woods like maple . It always happens, that I think I have the background perfectly smooth and then later I examine the spot under low angle light and I find rough spots.  I take care of all the spots I find, then after staining the wood and working the lighting, I find some more.  I am not referring to gentle ripples caused by scraping, which I like and retain, but tool marks or shaping flaws.  Then the real kicker is, after I think everything is good, I put finish on the stock.  As the finish becomes a little shiny, inevitably I notice a few more spots that I missed. At that point, I live with them.  My guns are a very human product, warts and all.

dave