Author Topic: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit  (Read 51198 times)

Offline Kingsburyarms

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Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« on: June 11, 2016, 03:35:13 PM »
All, As Jim builds his video collection, I thought I would post a few pictures of my .36 Walnut kit. Started with the Butt Plate and added a Toe plate as this will be a training rifle for my two boys, and a few club members that want to try flintlocks. I wanted it to be as sturdy as possible, knowing it will take a little "abuse" while students learn to load, shoot and clean it.

Simple finish (more utility than glamorous) except I will be adding a small inlet on the cheek piece.

I started with the Butt plate as I read in in earlier threads, and a little feedback from Jim, this could be a fragile area during assembly, and having the Toe plate attached does make for a "protective" endpiece.

Triggers installed, Barrel installed, need to drill the lock plate. This assembles like a "Lego" set - very clean, snaps together and is remarkable in it's simplistic beauty.
















« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 03:38:06 PM by Kingsburyarms »

Offline GANGGREEN

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2016, 03:42:28 PM »
Nice.

Offline smart dog

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2016, 05:10:49 PM »
Hi Jon,
I visited with Dave Price a few days ago and he told me about examining your Kibler kit.  He described the barrel fit as a "key in a lock" it was so precise.  We both laughed because we would have to scrape "slop" in the fit of parts to accommodate swelling when finish is applied.  Nice job.

dave
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Offline Squirrel pizza

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2016, 06:25:30 PM »
Very nice! The fit is excellent. And that's a fine looking piece of wood. Nice grain. Aqua fortis would be my first choice. What are you thinking of finishing her with?

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2016, 06:35:10 PM »
A few comments. You guys are going WAY freaky deaky over this toe thing. I have sen far more busted wrists on these antique mountain guns than busted toes. Also, if you just have to have a toe plate, study the geographic area where this particular gun was originally built and stick with what was common in that area. That finial sticks out like a sore thumb on a gun like this, my opinion of course. I'd suggest taking that one off and putting a 3" or 4" pain toe plate on it secure by two or three screws. Also, in almost 350 guns I have NEVER put the buttplate on before I have the barrel in and completely secured. Just too much worry over this butt/toe thing in this case. To the  point, This old gun, pictured below,  made it through probably 175 years with no buttplate or toe plate and is no worse for the wear. If you put aqua !@#$% on it it is going to go black....may be interesting if your going to rub the $#*! out of it for an antiqued look though.
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2016, 06:53:49 PM »
KBA:  in spite of the fact that this is such a precisely inlet 'kit', your workmanship is quite nice.  You obviously have considerable skill, and I'll be anxious to see this one finished.  I agree though about the Ferric Nitrate...walnut is beautiful with oil alone, IMMHO!
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Offline Squirrel pizza

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2016, 06:55:13 PM »
Black is exactly what I want. I like the finish Joe Schell puts on his southern squirrel rifles. You don't have to agree, but it's my preference. And yes, walnut is nice with just oil. You know what they say about beauty and the eye of the beholder. I've seen very few I DONT like.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 06:57:57 PM by Squirrel pizza »

Offline Kingsburyarms

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2016, 08:15:52 PM »
Hi Jon,
I visited with Dave Price a few days ago and he told me about examining your Kibler kit.  He described the barrel fit as a "key in a lock" it was so precise.  We both laughed because we would have to scrape "slop" in the fit of parts to accommodate swelling when finish is applied.  Nice job.

dave

Dave - David almost kept the kit!!! - He would not let go of it!!! - :) - As we chatted about swivel breaches and my Chambers kit, He almost had this one assembled. I think I will get him an early Christmas present this year he can play with ... :)

David gave me one of his Sterling silver hunters moons he cut out for a project, but didn't use - and I wil inlet that into the cheek.

This is a great little rifle -

Jon

Offline Kingsburyarms

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2016, 08:21:38 PM »
Very nice! The fit is excellent. And that's a fine looking piece of wood. Nice grain. Aqua fortis would be my first choice. What are you thinking of finishing her with?

Probably the same way I do my other Walnut stocks - Stain and Oil finish, flat to a dull sheen (Done by using Burlap for the rubdown and final coat) ... I have no experience with Aqua Fortis...



« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 03:57:24 PM by Ky-Flinter »

Offline Kingsburyarms

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2016, 08:26:04 PM »
A few comments. You guys are going WAY freaky deaky over this toe thing. I have sen far more busted wrists on these antique mountain guns than busted toes. Also, if you just have to have a toe plate, study the geographic area where this particular gun was originally built and stick with what was common in that area. That finial sticks out like a sore thumb on a gun like this, my opinion of course. I'd suggest taking that one off and putting a 3" or 4" pain toe plate on it secure by two or three screws. Also, in almost 350 guns I have NEVER put the buttplate on before I have the barrel in and completely secured. Just too much worry over this butt/toe thing in this case. To the  point, This old gun, pictured below,  made it through probably 175 years with no buttplate or toe plate and is no worse for the wear. If you put aqua !@#$% on it it is going to go black....may be interesting if your going to rub the $#*! out of it for an antiqued look though.


Thanks Mike - I agree that we all look through different lenses here - and the barrel is in and pinned - I guess I wanted to show what I did, right or wrong, and I think it should work just fine. Interesting photo of the stock - I'm sure many had no plates on them at all (Butt or Toe). I have much to learn.

Offline Squirrel pizza

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2016, 09:08:30 PM »
That's a fine looking stock. And I know you posted that picture to answer my question and show the stain. .... You do nice work.  Thanks for sharing it. Looking forward to seeing finished project.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 01:09:07 AM by Ky-Flinter »

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2016, 09:17:07 PM »
We'll just say its a good display example of finish on a walnut stock.......... must have been a builder named Garand somewhere in NC in 1800???   ::) :o  It is a heavy tang for a muzzleloader...........

AND.. no more modern examples please   ;D ;D  They will never catch on anyway
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 09:18:38 PM by Dr. Tim-Boone »
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Offline Kingsburyarms

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2016, 11:05:14 PM »
My apologies for the "Garand" picture - I wanted to show the forum what could be accomplished with Walnut wood with available stain and oil finishes today, and it's final result compared to my current project. I have that precise example to show, done by my hand, with the same wood, independent of it's time period or source. I focused on the wood and finish only, not the firearm.

I have spent over 40 years studying under masters of multiple trades - from Sam Adams (yes, the direct relation) to Mark Allen, one of the finest Silversmiths in New England. I have spent hundreds of hours in historic aircraft restoration, held some of the most iconic flintlock rifles known (Smithsonian) and trained under some of the finest craftsmen in the world. I know 0.0001% of what they do, but I want to keep these methods alive, active and if it helps just one craftsman, then all the years were worth it.

If the Garand Photo offends, I will remove, PM me and I will give you the exact process to duplicate if that finish is what you are looking for.

Even this forum, a global, instant response platform sharing skills and information from hundreds (or thousands) of smart, talented, educated and skilled masters did not exist even 30 years ago - I know, I was involved when this internet thing all started, I was one of the first people to post images in the "internet" for AOL/Reuters in the 80's. To criticize a post of a picture of a more modern rifle to explain the finishing of the stock wood that could replicate a classic or "contemporary", on a 2016 internet forum is being slightly Obtuse.

My most sincere apologies for pushing the limits - When the current flintlock rifle carries the same finish, I will replace the image to stay within the same theme. If the current image is not in practice with the forum rules, I will remove immediately.

Jon
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 11:17:52 PM by Kingsburyarms »

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2016, 11:07:38 PM »
My apologies for the "Garand" picture

Maybe a nice 3-piece patchbox to spruce it up a tad?

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2016, 11:26:51 PM »
Nice job On the kit.Thses were so fun to do,no stress at all.Yeah putting the but plate on first is a good idea,you have the toe area and also those sharp corners corners  of the return on the but plate to watch for.Keep up the good work.I enjoy watching youre posts.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2016, 11:32:21 PM »
Quote
If the Garand Photo offends, I will remove, PM me and I will give you the exact process to duplicate if that finish is what you are looking for.
Its not that it offends, our rules state nothing but ML's with sidelocks. What happens when a modern gun is shown is the same as on this one, others start to chime in and the next thing you have is a discussion on modern guns. There are many forums for modern arms so no need to discuss them here.
Dennis
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2016, 11:33:23 PM »
A few comments. You guys are going WAY freaky deaky over this toe thing. I have sen far more busted wrists on these antique mountain guns than busted toes. Also, if you just have to have a toe plate, study the geographic area where this particular gun was originally built and stick with what was common in that area. That finial sticks out like a sore thumb on a gun like this, my opinion of course. I'd suggest taking that one off and putting a 3" or 4" pain toe plate on it secure by two or three screws. Also, in almost 350 guns I have NEVER put the buttplate on before I have the barrel in and completely secured. Just too much worry over this butt/toe thing in this case. To the  point, This old gun, pictured below,  made it through probably 175 years with no buttplate or toe plate and is no worse for the wear. If you put aqua !@#$% on it it is going to go black....may be interesting if your going to rub the $#*! out of it for an antiqued look though.


Thanks Mike - I agree that we all look through different lenses here - and the barrel is in and pinned - I guess I wanted to show what I did, right or wrong, and I think it should work just fine. Interesting photo of the stock - I'm sure many had no plates on them at all (Butt or Toe). I have much to learn.
I have seen your work in the past and you are a fine craftsman. I was hoping to pull you back a bit because you have a tendency to "over embellish" as most people with your level of skill tend to do. "More" is not always "better". These were no nonsense guns built by no nonsense blacksmith/gunsmiths for no nonsense people.

Don't worry about the Garand picture, whether it stays or goes really has nothing to do  with you and your desire to illustrate your finish. You can show off you're RC airplane here (which I like) but you can't show a picture of a modern gun, even a under hammer percussion or a boxlock flint gun. I never could figure that out but I have learned to except it. ;)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 11:35:11 PM by Mike Brooks »
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2016, 11:36:00 PM »
Quote
You guys are going WAY freaky deaky over this toe thing.
Mike is right, I have owned several originals without buttplates and many with buttplates and no toe plates. I have yet to run into an original without buttplate that appeared to beat or chipped up, same for toe plates. In my opinion they are more for appearance than anything else.
Dennis
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2016, 11:40:09 PM »
Nice job On the kit.Thses were so fun to do,no stress at all.Yeah putting the but plate on first is a good idea,you have the toe area and also those sharp corners corners  of the return on the but plate to watch for.Keep up the good work.I enjoy watching youre posts.

So, what do you guys do with these things when you get them? Beat the buttplate inlet against the cement floor while you're putting in your barrel before you inlet the buttplate? I'm baffled.

This buttplate/toeplate thing is reaching urban legend status...... :o
« Last Edit: June 12, 2016, 12:07:09 AM by Mike Brooks »
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline EC121

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2016, 01:24:15 AM »
I don't see where it makes any difference.  It is his kit.  He can build it any way he wants.  There is no right or wrong way.
Brice Stultz

Offline Kingsburyarms

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2016, 02:06:24 AM »
Mike, Dennis, All,

Great feedback - I do need to "Throttle down" a bit - That's the best part of these forums - we can share, state opinion and ultimately work together. I'll share my Kibler build as intended, I will show what I can, ask what I need and respect all feedback - and avoid "going out of bounds"

I do have to say, in the most humble way, that there are incredible craftsmen and women on this forum, that it's fun just being a part -

Thimbles next - more pictures to come -

Thank you all for being passionate about these firearms -

Jon

Offline Kingsburyarms

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2016, 02:15:05 AM »
Nice job On the kit.Thses were so fun to do,no stress at all.Yeah putting the but plate on first is a good idea,you have the toe area and also those sharp corners corners  of the return on the but plate to watch for.Keep up the good work.I enjoy watching youre posts.

So, what do you guys do with these things when you get them? Beat the buttplate inlet against the cement floor while you're putting in your barrel before you inlet the buttplate? I'm baffled.

This buttplate/toeplate thing is reaching urban legend status...... :o

Mike - Jim sent me a stock with a known crack at the lower hole for the butt plate in about 1.5 inches into the stock. It was a stock he would never send to a client (Marked "Test/QA Rejected"), but I accepted it, knowing I would make a toe plate to cover my dowel/fix of the crack. All I wanted to do was "lock in" the stock after the fix so it would remain stable.

I should make my intentions more transparent. Many a fine rifle survived hundreds of years without a metal butt stock or toe plate, but you have not met my two teenagers, the concrete floor on our range and the two combined. If they can break something, they will find a way. :) - Your feedback is most enjoyable.

Jon

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2016, 06:21:01 AM »
Thimbles...here's something for a guy with talent at your level. Make some sterling silver ends on the pipes. Also a sterling strap over the buttplate finial. Maybe a sterling line around the breech and a sterling name plate in the barrel. Now, that would turn my crank much farther than that (IMO) "hinckey" toeplate. ;)

Get a blasted steel nose cap made for that thing too...that ought to keep you busy. ;D And a cigar shaped box too, don't forget that! Don't forget to put some english export style engraving on the lock either.
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Offline Kingsburyarms

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2016, 04:37:49 PM »
Disassembled the lock last night and inletted the lock plate. I can't really say I inletted the lock or lock plate, as it "snapped in" with no trimming or adjusting at all. Before disassembly, I tested the set triggers and they are spot on. So I drilled the lock plate and installed the plate.

The barrel touch hole and liner were already drilled and installed, and the alignment and the positioning in the pan were perfect. Absolutely no adjustment needed for that alignment. It's a testament to the quality and design of the kit.

The Ramrod Thimbles (or pipes) went in with no trouble, some wood needed to be trimmed for them to sit nice and flat. I use a padded clamp to set the thimbles in to drill them. One note. there are three spot welds on the thimbles, and the center weld is about where the pre-drilled hole is in the stock, so I recommend starting the drill in the stock to "Mark" the drill location on the thimble, then remove it from the stock to complete the hole. This way you will reduce the chance of opening the pre-drilled "wood" hole while drilling into the hardened metal.

Sorry, no silver inlays... :) Yet..... ::)

 





« Last Edit: June 12, 2016, 04:46:42 PM by Kingsburyarms »

Offline Joe S.

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Re: Kibler .36 Walnut Kit
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2016, 05:28:16 PM »
Man,all those inletts are spot on and tight,are all these "kits" this way?darn near looks oops proof.Gotta be labor intensive for Mr.Kibler to hand fit each and every rifle to get them all like that.