English Sporting rifle - Joseph Lang

[Shreckmeister]

Taylor,  wonderful rifle. I hope you get it. The images are available at ibb.co. When you double-click the picture the address should be in your bar for the location of the image on the Internet

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Thanks Shreckmeister!  I sent off cash yesterday to secure the sale!

[cable]

that is exquisite and so appealing in every way...especially would be handy for the big creatures we have here and where you are.

maybe you mentioned but what twist is the barrel??

[eddillon]

Gret rifle by a great maker.  Wish I could find me one of those!

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I have no idea of the rifle twist.  I viewed the rifle for a short time, enough to take those pictures, quite a few years ago.  I saw enough, though, that I knew I had to have it, if the opportunity ever presented itself.

[Daryl]

Taylor just drew my attention to this delightful little rifle!  THAT rifle is going to be fun!  What a score and score that one is. So nice and in the hayday of English dangerous game rifles. As Lt. James Forsyth, M.A. would put it, "buy a cheap single on this pattern".  I doubt very much that today this rifle would be described as "cheap".
oh boy, oh boy, oh boy - kinda champing at the bit here.

[Hungry Horse]

A guy showed up years ago at a local Rendezvous with a gun very similar to this one in .60 cal. The rifling was the same, as was the ramrod, and the Damascus barrel. I believe his was made in Ireland. There was a big dust up over shooting a Damascus barrel, but after close examination it was determined that it not really Damascus steel at all, just a nicely done imitation finish. It was not as nicely engraved as this one, but was in pretty good shape.

  Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

With a light 3-dram load, it will do just fine - low pressure load indeed.

[Bob Roller]

Taylor,
The date is a bit late but it is possible that the rifle fits a unique category of use popular in England roughly between 1830 and 40.  Driven deer shot from a "peg" much like driven pheasants.  The little roe deer were driven by beaters to the shooters located at a small opening in a large acreage enclosure.  Shooting therefore was at close range at deer running full open.   Had a 12 bore Purdey at one time made for this shooting.  It was deadly at 30 to 40 yds with a .720 ball and 40 grains of powder.  With 'normal' loads in the 70-90 grain range it was very lacking in accuracy.
A superb rifle in condition we all dream about. Congrats.
Jim

I had a friend that could throw a 12 gauge ball by hand and make it lethal.
That rifle is such an outstanding piece of work and it is a real find.
A friend of mine bought a similar one at Friendship two years ago but it
was about a 40 caliber with a multigroove barrel in pristine condition.
I am glad to see this go to someone who has a real appreciation for
such incredible craftsmanship'
Bob Roller

[snapper]

Daryl has the best of both worlds.  He gets to play with it and does not have to buy it.

It is like having a friend with a boat.

Fleener

[Daryl]

Kinda like being married, Fleener?

Exactly - but - I do have a rifle I could trade for it!

[Daryl]

Daryl has the best of both worlds.  He gets to play with it and does not have to buy it.

It is like having a friend with a boat.

Fleener

Nor does he have to clean it - although - I would not mind at all, rather enjoy handling it, I would.

[heelerau]

Taylor I will be very interested in what size ball you finish up using, and load as well. When does the rifle get home to you ?   I am finding the 3 dram load of Goex Fg ver comfortable to use in my .72 English sporting rifle.  As you have read I am using a well undersize ball at the moment and leather patching till I get properly sorted out.  As always a darn pity these rifles cannot speak of what they have seen and done. The tiger on your rifle is ver similar to the one on my rifles lock plate.  Happy Easter

Cheers

Gordon

[Daryl]

I currently have 16 bore (.662" as-cast), 15 bore (.675" casting .675")) and a .684" mould casting .682". Pretty much got the ball size covered for about any sort of material desired.

I use .030" with the .15 bore balls, soft or hard alloy, in my .69.  It does shoot better, though, with the larger .682"(from the mould in pure lead) with the same patch - bit tighter, though.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Gordon:  the rifle is in a city some eight hours distant.  I will not take the chance of mailing it or any other courier.  I will make the drive and pick it up personally, but that cannot occur until middle of May...yeah, I know. 
I did a little webb research on Joseph Lang:  he seems to be mostly known for his shotguns, and his company had a long history with some very prestigious buyers, including the Prince  of Wales.  If anyone else has reference material on him, I'd love to read it.

[Daryl]

Mid May - hmmm - sounds like a road trip to me - maybe do some shooting, do some fishing?

[snapper]

I would be hesitant to have it shipped as well.  I had Jim Westberg work on my Rigby a couple of times, and each time I drove the 3 hours each way to take it and pick it up.

Last year I bought a pelican case for it and cut out the foam to fit the rifle.  Pelican cases are almost bullet proof.

I have been trying to figure out what to do with my Rigby when I take it to AU this fall for the World match.  We are going to be seeing the sights for a couple of week prior to the match, and I cant haul the rifle around AU and NZ.

I checked with shipping fedex, it was $800 one way.  Spoke to a gun importer/exporter and he said $1500 plus 3 months of paper work.

I am certainly not wanting to ship it. 

I like Daryl's idea, do a little fishing and a little shooting.

fleener

[heelerau]

 At our age anticipation is a rare thing,  will look forward to hearing about your trip and a happy snap with the new rifle !!

[Dphariss]

A guy showed up years ago at a local Rendezvous with a gun very similar to this one in .60 cal. The rifling was the same, as was the ramrod, and the Damascus barrel. I believe his was made in Ireland. There was a big dust up over shooting a Damascus barrel, but after close examination it was determined that it not really Damascus steel at all, just a nicely done imitation finish. It was not as nicely engraved as this one, but was in pretty good shape.

  Hungry Horse

Quality Damascus is not an issue. Its the cheap poorly made Damascus that came to the US in the late 19th c that caused the problem. Shotguns selling for 2-4 dollars apiece could not be expected to have barrels of any quality.
Damascus shotgun barrels are still made in England IIRC. Proved for Nitro.
But people need to know what to look for in a Damascus shotgun or rifle barrel, dents in shotgun barrels can break we weld in the other barrel as well. Rifle barrels look for pitting that might be deeper than one thinks. I would not shoot damascus with any proof other than English.  Parker used first quality English machine made Damascus in the late 19th, early 20th c. But most used lower grade steels..... The best English machine made Damascus was fully equal to "Whitworth steel" in the mid-late 1890s. Read this in "The Gun and Its Development" W.W. Greener. Mine is from 1896....

Dan

[Daryl]

Purdey was still making Damascus barreled SXS shotguns in 1927  nitro proofed, of course.

[Daryl]

Well, I just got home from Taylor's place - it is a 16 bore - .660" land to land- even number of lands and grooves - 10, with a 48" twist.

At least it isn't 36" like some. It will shoot 3 drams quite nicely, I'm sure. It will likely do well to about 4 drams max - about 110 - maybe 120gr. which will be fine with a 17 (.650") or 17-ish bore ball. If a true 17 bore mould is ordered, it will cast about .648".

Got the story on it as well - well most recent story, that is.

This rifle has been in 2 gun shows here in BC or Alberta- maybe Calgary. A friend of ours who used to built rifles & go general Gun Smithing here in PG & who had Taylor working for him building Hawken-type Rifles back in the 80's, saw it at a show and 1st time - it had not a single mark on it. The dealer who had it wanted too much money for it.

Couple years pass and it was at another gun show where it now had handling marks, slightly damaged nipple from dry firing, along with marks and dents around the barrel wedge from prying with a screw driver, etc. Don couldn't stand to see it damaged this way - and bought it on the spot, and showed it to Taylor. My bro bought it just recently, but would not have it shipped or mailed, simply drove the 8 hours to get it & visit some relatives down that way.

The Joseph Lang weighs 8.14 pounds (4.61 Kilos), barrel is 1.790" at the breech, 1.120" at the muzzle and a mere 1" in the waist.

The rifling is clean and sharp (appearing unfired, actually) to the breech - with a slight choke at the muzzle.

There is some roughness from people shoving their @!*% fingers into the bore - WHY do people seem to HAVE to do that - automatic - blooody $#*!?

Sorry for the rant.

At least it's only just a bit rough, not pitted YET and with some shooting it will smooth out due to the patches and cleaning.

A mould will be subsequently ordered from Jeff Tanner of the UK.

The engraving is quite nice, tiny scrolls & pictures. The checkering is perfect and borders are perfectly parallel, no overruns or booboos - REALLY nice to see and hold. Points like a dream and sights come up instantly aligned on what you are looking at as the rifle is raised to the face and shoulder.

Sight leaves, 100(point blank), 150 and 200, same as mine now on the 14 bore.

Current condition and finish is as-original - not refurbished or re-finished in any way.

The ram-rod and entry pipes are huge - over 1/2" & appears to be perfectly straight rose-wood - maybe stained green-heart (I've heard was used) - don't know for sure.

I would not be surprised the gun is unfired from Lang's facility.

It is VERY nice indeed. Too bad an idiot PERSON had it before Don rescued it.

It has No. 769 engraved behind the guard on it's finial. Don figured 1853 for a date of mfg.

Oh yeah - single set trigger and the lock clicks like a 1st rate rifle's lock should. The 1/2 bent safety is really special as well.

--------------------
Daryl

[Bob Roller]

There is some roughness from people shoving their @!*% fingers into the bore - WHY do people seem to HAVE to do that - automatic - blooody $#*!?

Put a bit of graphited grease in the muzzle for those who can't resist a probe.
Messy,hard to get off the fingers and won't harm the rifle.

Bob Roller

[heelerau]

 ver please you got it  home at last.  Looking forward to hearing the range report.  I just picked up a nice flask of flea bay locally down under with an adjustable nozzle  3 to 4 1/2 drams in 1/2 dram increments.  Guess your rifle would have been cased with all the gear, pity that has disapeared.

Cheers

Gordon

[Daryl]

Malachite Green would be even better - good idea, Bob- tks. LOL

By the time they got 30', their face would have it all over along with both hands and their clothes too.  The harder you try to swash it off, the more spread around it becomes.

Unfortunately, so would anyone handling what they did.

Maybe moly grease is a better idea.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I took some pictures of the details of the rifle and am sharing them now, for those who enjoy English Sporting Rifles and/or intend to build one.  The following are some measurements:

LOP:  14"
Drop at heel:  1 13/16"
Drop at comb:  1 5/16"
Barrel length:  30" including breech plug
Weight:  8.14 pounds
Barrel swamped:  @breech - 1.183", 5 1/4" from muzzle - 1", @ muzzle - 1.035"
Trigger pull weight:  unset - 3# 3.7 oz., set - 6 oz.
Bore:  .66"
Groove depth .685" (10 grooves ~ 2 x land width)
Rate of Twist:  1:48"




























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