English single set trigger

[Mattox Forge]

Does anyone manufacture a trigger like this now?



This is from a bullet gun I got today.

Mike

[smart dog]

Hi Mike,
Both Davis and L&R have double lever single set triggers that are similar but not exactly the same.  I believe the trigger adjustment screws on their triggers are behind the trigger.  The new Davis triggers look to be the closest match but it is not clear on the web site if they are in production yet.

dave

[Mattox Forge]

Thanks Dave. I have seen the L&R and Davis single set triggers which seem to be pretry nice triggers. They both appear to be like the design described in George's "English Guns and Rifles". That design seems to be quite unlike the design of this mechanism. It has the adusting screw in front of the trigger, and does not work the same way as that shown in the book. I have never seen any antique guns, English or otherwise, with single set triggers that have the adjusting screw behind the trigger. I have only seen single sets with the screw in front. They are probably out there, but the front screw type seems to be the most common.

I am willing to tackle building one, but I would rather try to find one like this commercially available.  Apparently the Birmingham builders felt the same way. This trigger was marked "SIDDON" in tiny letters on the trigger plate, so it seems to have been a specialist built assembly, like the better quality locks got to be.

Mike

[Bob Roller]

Thanks Dave. I have seen the L&R and Davis single set triggers which seem to be pretry nice triggers. They both appear to be like the design described in George's "English Guns and Rifles". That design seems to be quite unlike the design of this mechanism. It has the adusting screw in front of the trigger, and does not work the same way as that shown in the book. I have never seen any antique guns, English or otherwise, with single set triggers that have the adjusting screw behind the trigger. I have only seen single sets with the screw in front. They are probably out there, but the front screw type seems to be the most common.

I am willing to tackle building one, but I would rather try to find one like this commercially available.  Apparently the Birmingham builders felt the same way. This trigger was marked "SIDDON" in tiny letters on the trigger plate, so it seems to have been a specialist built assembly, like the better quality locks got to be.

Mike

The best of these single set triggers were made by watch makers in the French speaking part
of Switzerland.This info came from a currently active gun maker in Germany.I have made these but
it's been over 35 years since I made the last one and I don't plan to do any more.
Taylor Sapergia posted a picture of one from a Fenton target pistol at my request and it is a
fine one. The big French improvement was the addition of an adjustment screw to set the
amount of touch needed to set it off.The English one I have relies on sear spring tension and
must be removed from the gun to adjust the touch.The sear spring is strong and little is needed to
change the trigger.There IS someone making a nice trigger that looks like it has no cast parts
and maybe some one here can put a name and location to this.

Bob Roller

[greybeard]

My James Purdey 40 bore stalking rifle had an external adjustment screw in the front of the trigger. 
My J. Harkom 25 bore rile of Edinburgh had single set trigger with no external adjustment.
     Bob

[Randall Steffy]

Stan Hollenbaugh makes a dandy single set trigger. Check it out here. http://www.stanhollenbaughgunsmith.com/page4.html

[Mattox Forge]

The Stan Hollenbaugh tigger description points out another thing that is critical to get these to work, which is the sear pressure. It may seem obvious, but this trigger won't work unless the lock is set up properly with a smooth sear/tumbler interface and a fly. The lock that this trigger came from is superb. I believe the gun was actually built by W&C Scott.

Mike

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I have two rifles with Stan Hollenbaugh Double Action Single set triggers.  This means they can be fired unset or press them forward to set and it becomes a hair trigger. It has a different camming action inside which I think provides for a smoother release.

The S.H. single set trigger can be used either as a single
stage trigger or set.
It is adjustable for both setting pressure & release
pressure when set & no trigger creep. The lock must
have a sear release pressure of five (5) pounds or less.
Warranter against defective parts or workmanship as
long as not altered.
Comes with installation instructions. I am told that it's the
best one available!
$65.00 plus shipping & ins.

[Bob Roller]

I have two rifles with Stan Hollenbaugh Double Action Single set triggers.  This means they can be fired unset or press them forward to set and it becomes a hair trigger. It has a different camming action inside which I think provides for a smoother release.

The S.H. single set trigger can be used either as a single
stage trigger or set.
It is adjustable for both setting pressure & release
pressure when set & no trigger creep. The lock must
have a sear release pressure of five (5) pounds or less.
Warranter against defective parts or workmanship as
long as not altered.
Comes with installation instructions. I am told that it's the
best one available!
$65.00 plus shipping & ins.

I have heard nothing but good reports on the Hollenbaugh single set trigger
and will say  NOW that the $65 price is a gift.I got $100 each for these in
1980.You might ask if the contour of the trigger can be reshaped to look like the English triggers.

Bob Roller

[hudson]

W.C. Cane wonderful little trigger. Does anyone know if anyone has taken up the manufacture of these since his passing? I never met him though wish I had.

[WestBranchSusquehanna]

Found this site:http://www.cainsoutdoor.com/shop/product.asp?c=0&l=Triggers&go=1
Is it still valid?
BTW, I have a Cain single set that I was going to use until my finger thought it could stop my band saw!  Unfortunately or maybe lucky I only got a little nerve damage on my trigger finger and it is on the inside towards the thumb.  Now I can't press the trigger forward to cock.  Most likely will use it on a gun for someone else in the future.

[Bob Roller]

W.C. Cane wonderful little trigger. Does anyone know if anyone has taken up the manufacture of these since his passing? I never met him though wish I had.

I knew Walter Caine and a fine man he was. I got his business cards from him at Friendship
and sent them to anyone who wanted a single set trigger or an upgraded Siler flintlock.
We never were competitors and he did a fine job on the parts he made and I would tell
any and all they were well worth the money.

Bob Roller

[Mattox Forge]

The best of these single set triggers were made by watch makers in the French speaking part
of Switzerland.This info came from a currently active gun maker in Germany.I have made these but
it's been over 35 years since I made the last one and I don't plan to do any more.
Taylor Sapergia posted a picture of one from a Fenton target pistol at my request and it is a
fine one. The big French improvement was the addition of an adjustment screw to set the
amount of touch needed to set it off.The English one I have relies on sear spring tension and
must be removed from the gun to adjust the touch.The sear spring is strong and little is needed to
change the trigger.There IS someone making a nice trigger that looks like it has no cast parts
and maybe some one here can put a name and location to this.

Bob Roller

Bob,

I took this trigger apart, measured the parts, and made a layout drawing. The only way I can see theoretically how this one works is through spring tension balance. The diagram in George's book shows the hair trigger sear engagement in the proper place, behind the sear pivot point. This one has the heavy spring engagement acting forward of the hair trigger sear pivot, which would tend to force the sear off, so unless the air trigger sear is balanced properly the hair trigger will never set, and then the design is prone to wear. I was expecting a better design, and am a little surprised.

Mike

[Bob Roller]

The best of these single set triggers were made by watch makers in the French speaking part
of Switzerland.This info came from a currently active gun maker in Germany.I have made these but
it's been over 35 years since I made the last one and I don't plan to do any more.
Taylor Sapergia posted a picture of one from a Fenton target pistol at my request and it is a
fine one. The big French improvement was the addition of an adjustment screw to set the
amount of touch needed to set it off.The English one I have relies on sear spring tension and
must be removed from the gun to adjust the touch.The sear spring is strong and little is needed to
change the trigger.There IS someone making a nice trigger that looks like it has no cast parts
and maybe some one here can put a name and location to this.

Bob Roller

Bob,

I took this trigger apart, measured the parts, and made a layout drawing. The only way I can see theoretically how this one works is through spring tension balance. The diagram in George's book shows the hair trigger sear engagement in the proper place, behind the sear pivot point. This one has the heavy spring engagement acting forward of the hair trigger sear pivot, which would tend to force the sear off, so unless the air trigger sear is balanced properly the hair trigger will never set, and then the design is prone to wear. I was expecting a better design, and am a little surprised.

Mike

These old high quality triggers were hard as glass and were not shot a lot like we do today.
Same goes for the locks on the best grade guns.

Bob Roller

[Mattox Forge]

I made detailed drawings of the mechanism. After studying it and understanding it, I realized that it is quite brilliant. The design, unlike all of the other single set designs I have seen, does not adjust the amount of sear engagement that the mechanism has when set. The sear engagement is fixed regardless of the weight that the trigger is set to. The sear is designed so that theoretically the trigger pull can bet set to 0 force by balancing the trigger spring against the main spring.



Nomenclature



Unset and normal trigger pull operation. The mainspring rests on extensions of the uprights when in this position, taking it out of the spring balance equation. In this setting, the sear spring pushes on the trigger, and acts as trigger spring for unset trigger operations.



Set for hair trigger. The adjusting screw pulls down on the sear spring, increasing the force on the back leg of the sear, balancing out the force from the main spring that is trying to push the sear open. When in adjustment, the sear spring and main spring are equal, or the sear spring is slightly stronger. When the trigger is touched the slight addition of force upsets the balance between the sear spring and the main spring, allowing the main spring to "win", releasing the sear, and the trigger.



Set showing the sear spring

Some overall views of the model





Mike

[Gunnermike]

Those are some fine drawings and no doubt a lot of work to make.  Thanks very much for posting them.  Mike

[Mattox Forge]

Those are some fine drawings and no doubt a lot of work to make.  Thanks very much for posting them.  Mike

Thanks, now I just need to make one out of steel.

Mike

[smylee grouch]

How good of a trigger pull can you achieve, weight/crispness etc. with those set triggers when used unset?

[Mattox Forge]

How good of a trigger pull can you achieve, weight/crispness etc. with those set triggers when used unset?

The trigger operates and feel exactly like a plain trigger when used unset. The extra components don't affect it at all. I haven't weighed it, I should do that now that you mention it.  Unset I imagine the trigger is in the 4 pound range. The gun set up is excellent, and the trigger is in perfect contact with the lock sear, so there is no perceptible creep when unset. The lock on the gun is excellent.

Mike

[n stephenson]

Mike, Those are some NICE  mechanical drawings . Interesting breakdown, Thanks!!

[smylee grouch]

I was wondering about the mechanical advantage some set triggers lose when the front rigger is pinned through the trigger bar. When they are set up pinned like that it seems to make the front trigger pull weight heavier than when the trigger is pinned a little higher.

[Mattox Forge]

I was wondering about the mechanical advantage some set triggers lose when the front rigger is pinned through the trigger bar. When they are set up pinned like that it seems to make the front trigger pull weight heavier than when the trigger is pinned a little higher.

The trigger pivot pin on this design is in the same place it would normally be for a plain trigger, so the finger pull lever arm is the same. I see what you are talking about on the designs where the trigger pivot is in the thickness of the trigger plate, the pivot gets moved down, and the finger pull lever arm gets shorter. Consequently, the pull will get higher.

[L. Akers]

Very interesting design especially re the adjustable sear spring.  THE thing I don't care for is that when used in the set mode, the trigger will jump away from your finger when the sear is tripped.  Thanks for posting!

[Bob Roller]

In the early 1980's I made a German designed trigger they called "kammerstecher".
The trigger and the release bar were on two different pins and when the trigger was pushed forward
to set the upper (release)bar was push up ward and engaged the sear.When fired,the release bar
flipped up under mainspring tension and the trigger where your finger rested would not move.
All of these went to a man in Koln or Cologne as we call it.I may still have some bits and pieces for these
if I can find them.Free of cost if I DO have them.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

I was wondering about the mechanical advantage some set triggers lose when the front rigger is pinned through the trigger bar. When they are set up pinned like that it seems to make the front trigger pull weight heavier than when the trigger is pinned a little higher.

Smylee,
On the double bar double set trigger that "usable" front trigger is an emergency or back up
trigger in the event of a mainspring failure on the rear trigger.This is a RARE occurrence and
in all the years I have made these it has happened once on a trigger I made.That was YEARS
ago and I still wonder why that spring failed.Care must be taken when laying these out for
inletting so the front trigger can actually serve as a back up "just in case".

Bob Roller