Re:What makes a "Master Builder"

[t.caster]

G.H. I'm LOL here, but I don't see the connection.
I don't think anyone questions Hugh's qualifications to be called a Master. Look at the body of his work! At least in my eyes...there is no doubt.

But the bigger question that Mike touched on is: In the year of Our Lord 2009, what does one have to achieve to reach that level, and who bestowes that title? What does it mean? Does it even matter? This is a craft, even for those who do it for a living. It is not a Union or a Guild anymore with different classifications and pay levels. No state certifications. No formal education w/degrees are required to build muzzleloaders, although some of us were certified (modern) gunsmiths first.
I subscribe to flintman-tx's definition of a Master. If people like your work and enjoy shooting your rifles, then you have arrived.
I'll bet books could be written on this subject, and opinions will be all over the map! Good! Let's here some!

*(Moderator) Maybe this should have it's own subject line.

[Mike R]

Of course in the old days you would apprentice to a Master maker, go through a Journeyman phase and eventually get approved as a Master by formal judgement of your peers. You would produce a "masterpiece" work to be judged.  The American Bladesmith Society has such a program, and they award Master Smith titles to those who go through their process, including a journeyman step and a final judging of a set of specified knives who's making reveal the skill and artistry of the candidate.  Only these folks can stamp their blades with a "M.S." with their name.  I have speculated that many of the fancy original guns that have survived were the masterpiece examples of the journeyman smiths--where they had to demonstrate both basic workmanship skills and their artistic abilities [carvings, engraving, etc].  I see no formal system in place for Master gunbuilders today, but there is peer review and customer review. There is a long list of Master builders that post here!  By acclaimation of their peers.  But no formal system of awarding such a title.  To me a Master gunsmith needs to not only demonstrate his/her skills, artistry and understanding of the guns he/she builds but do it consistently with each piece.

[Ken G]

I think you also need to take into consideration the school or style of gun a person is building when you say Master Builder. 
Being a builder of Southern rifles, I can think of a couple of guys I would consider "Master Builders" but have never produced a rifle loaded with engraving, carving and perfect finish such as we have recently seen.  They are however in my mind Masters of their craft which might include forge welding barrels and locks, shaping metal to produce any part of a gun. 
Can one be considered a Master Builder if you they purchase parts made by someone else? 

I'm looking forward to hearing the different opinions on this topic.
Ken

[lew wetzel]

in my opinion a true master builder has to be in command of every aspect of what it takes to create a one of a kind rifle....and not follow any school but to make it his own.......sort of like the house brothers....woodbury school...

[rich pierce]

I guess to be a master you have to have a slave- (apprentice).    The term is subjective in its common use.  I'm pretty sure I know one when I see one, but you might not agree.  It's a compliment you may never want to receive, because some will disagree.

In the context of craft schools, such as the Colonial Williamsburg gunshop, the term had meaning. In that shop, there would be a master, journeymen, and apprentices.  To be prudent, it is best applied in those sorts of contexts.

[Don Getz]

I think "Master Gunbuilder" comes in different degrees.    Many years ago a local paper did a story on our barrel business
and the article showed a picture of me working in the shop with the inscription "Master Gunmaker".  Jokingly, I made sure the article was posted in the shop where everyone could see it, and when the right situation would arise, I would just point to the picture.   I still use the phrase, when the time is right..........Don

[Hoot AL]

I served my apprentice under Steve Bookout for 6 years helping make several rifles. I had to make my Journeyman rifle from scratch totally on my own.  Then it was sent off and reviewed by two Master Gunbuilders.  Then I received my Journeyman status.

Now I have an apprentice working on his second rifle.  I was told you have to have make about 100 rifles before you would be considered a Master Builder.

Atleast that is my understanding. Be interesting to know other interpretations.

Hoot AL

[Mike Brooks]

I served my apprentice under Steve Bookout for 6 years helping make several rifles. I had to make my Journeyman rifle from scratch totally on my own.  Then it was sent off and reviewed by two Master Gunbuilders.  Then I received my Journeyman status.

Now I have an apprentice working on his second rifle.  I was told you have to have make about 100 rifles before you would be considered a Master Builder.

Atleast that is my understanding. Be interesting to know other interpretations.

Hoot AL

@!*%! I'll never get to be a Master Builder and build "Master Pieces" as I'm self taught.....

[Ben I. Voss]

Sorry Mike- too bad you'll never amount to anything!!

[Acer Saccharum]

If I make it to fifty guns in this lifetime, I will be lucky.

In the next life, I will start at a younger age, and then spend more time at it. I won't take time out to raise my kids properly, I'll let them fend for themselves while I go for my Masters status. The wife will feed and clothe me, and work a full time job so our family can have health insurance. Then I can bask in the glory of that certificate, knowing that the sacrifices I made were so worth the effort.

Acer

[Don Getz]

Son of a gun, I've only 20 guns to go, and I still can't engrave worth a hoot, and my relief carving needs improving.  I hate to inlet patchboxes and inlays (very few of these)... time may run out before I make it.   Maybe that is why I have
gravitated downward to "barn" guns...personally, I would rather see a nice plain gun than one that is engraved or carved
poorly...............Don

[Acer Saccharum]

But what makes a master?

I doubt it's got much to do with the number of guns you make. While that helps, if you keep making the same mistakes over and over, you are only mastering your mistakes.

ACer

[lew wetzel]

i dont think its the number of guns you build or who you apprenticed under....its being able to produce rifles that are emmaculate and be consistant with each one....there are quite a few "master builders" on this forum....bill shipman,taylor sapergia,tom curran,jerry huddleston,gary brumsfield,hugh tonjes,eric kettenburg,david price.....and not only building beautiful rifles they seem to want to give back younger builders the knowledge and skills they have learned.....and that is golden and ....so they are either masters or have severe OCD......

[Ken G]

Since we don't have a universal / common apprenticeship program in the US.  Or is there and I don't know about it?   It will come down to what a person is doing and how we define the term gun builder.  I see a difference between master gun builder, master gun stocker and master engraver / carver. 
I've reached Master status in another craft and I believe some of the same principles requirements would apply to Master Gun Builder. 
Learning Period - I'm apprenticing under Steve Bookout myself.  I don't think now days that is required but I want someday to say I learned under him and have that on my credentials.  I've seen several on this board mention training under different folks from time to time.  In the old days, a persons Master would be considered when trying to get a job as a Journeyman.  Again, not needed in our current world because few of us try to make a living at gun building.  There's a reason for that and I take my hat off to Mike Brooks and others that are doing that. 
Journeyman status - You can build and produce a working gun that is very impressive.  You may not have all the tools or equipment needed.  Still working under a Masters watchful eye and in the old days in their shop.  You are dependent on someone else's  knowledge or ability to produce a gun.  I'm sure several of you are thinking right now, I can do that now.  If you HAVE to buy a cast part to make that gun, you are dependent on someone else.
Master Gun Builder- Total and complete ability to make anything needed to needed to produce that gun.  In the old days you had to own your own shop.  In modern days I think that would equal you are able to sell you guns for a profit.  That doesn't mean you can't take advantage of buying parts but you would not be out of business if someone stopped making a buttplate or trigger guard. 
In my previous profession I was a Master Pictorial Painter for Outdoor Advertising.  Computers were on the brink of taking everything over but it was a requirement you learn the old ways so as not to be totally dependent on technology to produce something.  I see the parallel form time to time on this board when Jerry will make a post about a lock or trigger guard not being available and he made it. 

There's my rambling for the morning.  In my opinion you can be a master engraver without being a master builder.  You could be a master carver without being a master builder and you can be a master gun builder without carving or engraving.  Regardless, it will still come down to the opinion of others.  You can anoint yourself Master Builder but others have to agree. 

[jwh1947]

Anyone can call himself anything he wants.  Perhaps the concept of peer review needs to be considered.  When recognized gunbuilders get together for a jaw session and they tend to agree that a person is a master gunsmith, he probably is.  I'm not here to play semantic games and define words like "best," but we all tend to concur on who the really good ones are.  And the practicing gunsmiths around here who make a living from it furthermore tend to agree on definitions of terms and criteria for determination of "mastery' of the craft.   

Also one needs to ask what aspects of building a gunsmith has mastered.  One may be a master at hand craft and execution, but not at the interpretation or understanding of the historical evolution of the architecture and regional characteristics of early guns.  To some, the latter doesn't matter.  To many others, it is a fundamental base-line necessity for any further consideration of a piece.

Also, is one aiming to be viewed as the fanciest "high-art" builder of the era or does he see himself as a production builder of working guns that are intended to be used?  Some builders and apparently some customers are not satisfied unless every square inch of a gun is covered with gingerbread.  Look at the early originals.  The vast preponderance were not all dolled up with doo-dads. Plain guns, too, can be done with crispness and integrity or with sloppy work.  Good work is good work, bad is bad, regardless of how glittery it is.

I have always refrained from using the term "master" in association with my own work, preferring the term "journeyman" instead.   This I can substantiate with professional awards, etc.  Compared to the best, I am far from a master.  My satisfaction comes from seeing my products used in the forests and fields and I find it fun to build guns.  JWH

[Tom Currie]

Without a formal Guild process today I agree with several of you that " Master " is synonymous with the reputation you have earned amongst your peers. ALR, Contemporary Makers Blog, and the internet in general has allowed those of us who are distant from PA to get to know who these men are. Lew has mentioned several, there are more out there for sure. Besides obvious ability, the willingness to share there knowledge makes these men stand out. After all, even in the Guild days, part of being a Master was the requirement to teach.

Geez, I wonder how many rifles it would take to be a Journeyman... 20 ? That's tough, like Acer, life sort of got in way for me. I better pick up the pace.

[Jim Kibler]

Tell me, in this day, what is the purpose of refering to someone as a "master".  Why not forget such silly value judgements and let someone's work stand for itself.  You can be pretty sure the very best couldn't care less about being refered to as a "master".  Hmmm..... maybe this is part of why they have become as good as they are.  Keep learning, trying to get better and forget about nonsense such as this.

[Hoot AL]

"Master" is just a term of respect to a builder who has mastered his craft in some aspect.  I created a website back in March 2004 designed to show others how to build the rifles from begining to end.  My only hope is this information has been found to be useful by others.   I am not a Master, nor pretend to be.  I am still in awe of what today gunmakers can do.   However, studing the older rifles, I notice they were not that fancy either.  Only the few special ones which the rich owners may have requested to be embellished would have all the embellishments.

My satisfaction comes in my finished work and the compliments from my customers. Then to hear of their first hunting stories with their new rifle. 

I am honored to participate in a chat forum with the company of gunbuilders with whom I admire their work and prove to be an inspiration to me and others.

AL

[lew wetzel]

jim,out of all the responses to this thread you of all people i would suspect would be striving for master gunbuilder status.you are not married no children,you teach once a month at the log cabin,you are taking another class with wallice in kentucky,and you make some of the nicest contempary rifles out there....even if your not looking for the title of master gun builder i suspect it will be bestowed upon you ....i know your very humble and would shrug it off,but to some it is a lifetime achievement and something they work hard to be reconized by thier peers...

[lew wetzel]

after just getting off the phone with a friend that lurks here on the site but wont post we had a discussion on this and he seems to have a solid idea about all this....back in days long gone there were apprentices,journeymen and masters....the apprentice apprenticed for years to learn the craft from the master..once he went out on his own he became a journeymen and after he had taken on an apprentice of his own he was considered a master{teacher}..so without getting into to much detail,many of you that are at the top of your game and willing to share your experience with an apprentice level builder...are truly masters....

[Karl Kunkel]

Lew,

Well said, today's apprentices truly appreciate the knowledge shared hereby the "masters".  That's what makes this forum so special.

[Jim Kibler]

jim,out of all the responses to this thread you of all people i would suspect would be striving for master gunbuilder status.you are not married no children,you teach once a month at the log cabin,you are taking another class with wallice in kentucky,and you make some of the nicest contempary rifles out there....even if your not looking for the title of master gun builder i suspect it will be bestowed upon you ....i know your very humble and would shrug it off,but to some it is a lifetime achievement and something they work hard to be reconized by thier peers...

Lew,

I couldn't give a $#@* about "master gunbuilder status".  Think about what I've written in my previous post.  I don't know what else to say other than to reiterate:   Keep learning, trying to get better and forget about the rest.  It really is this simple.

[Leatherbelly]

I appreciate what Jim says in his posts.Not only is he a very talented builder,he is humble about his achievements.Many others are like him on this board.My friend Taylor is likewise.Great teachers ,all!

[Collector]

Lew,

If you didn't know it, what you've been doing is called making an 'ascending' argument.  The tactical theory is that the argument 'ascends,' (like climbing stairs) in merit, (relevance, stature and magnitude) the more times it's introduced.  

Well, as an act of kindness, you should note, that it isn't working.  You're 'ascending' argument is now 'descending.'

 



 

[Mike Brooks]

I can never be a "Master" because I'm self taught. But, according to the parameters set by others on this board I more than qualify in other areas. I have taught gun building classes , ( get paid too! ). I actually make a living making guns (which I think should be a significant qualification for some silly term "Master"). But, I would never use the term "Master" to describe my "status". I'm continually learning, and always will, I have no complete "Mastery" of the trade by a long shot. In fact I would be entirely embarrassed to be described as a "Master"....I just build guns, that's it. No titles needed.
 The thing that gets me torqued about all of this is the guys that puff out their chests and insist on being called "Masters" are always the guys that are looking for recognition they don't actually deserve. It's always over inflated ego looking to be stroked as if this title some how makes them more important.  The guys I know that are building the best guns these days don't use titles to describe them selves, their work speaks for it's self. I know a good gun when I see one, I don't need to be beat over the head with the builders imagined social status in the gun making world.
 The gun that got all of this started is technically good. But, it was judged by a "Gun makers Guild" that primarily deals in modern center fire guns and was evaluated by people who are very good at building center fire guns, but obviously lack knowledge of longrifles. When this gun is evaluated by that Guild's standards it gets very good marks. But, when evaluated by the muzzle loading community it falls short and can hardly be described with the term  "Masterpiece" which the builder continually beat us all over the head with.
 I could go on, but I'll spare you guys.....