Author Topic: W.L. Signed Rifle (Read 6087 times)

OldSouthRelics · « **on:** January 10, 2018, 08:19:18 AM »

Here is a rifle in my collection that I have yet to attribute to a particular individual or region. I kindly and humbly ask for help from you gentlemen who have more experience and knowledge. The top of the barrel is signed W.L., I apologize for how blurry the picture is, I'll try to retake it.

Here is a little back story: This rifle came from South Carolina and took me roughly four years to purchase. It came out of a collection that I purchased some other items from, but the owner was not interested in parting with this rifle at that time. I really liked how the buttplate terminated into the stock, the animals, and all the small details such as the star behind the site and the patchbox engraving.... so I stayed in touch with the owner. Last year he finally felt it was time to part with the rifle, and I happily purchased it.

I believe this was originally a flintlock, am I correct?

I notice there is some wear, and what is possibly a replacement of the wood behind the hammer. The lock also has signs that it once had some flintlock mechanisms.

Any opinions on the maker or region of origin would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

Hlbly · « **Reply #1 on:** January 10, 2018, 09:33:26 AM »

William Lloyd, Snyder County, PA. Probably always percussion.

OldSouthRelics · « **Reply #2 on:** January 10, 2018, 03:11:50 PM »

Thank you Hlbly.

Looking at the example that sold in 2013 at James D. Julia and comparing it to mine, it would seem likely that you are correct. I found another thread on this forum from 2016 with another member named "nord" who wrote that he owned one. The thread was started by a gentleman who said his father found a Lloyd rifle under a house in LA during the 1960's. He seems to know a fair bit about Mr. Lloyd's background, perhaps he'll see this thread.

wildcatter · « **Reply #3 on:** January 10, 2018, 04:38:07 PM »

I'm going throw out another name, maybe William Loudenslager. There are a couple really knowledgeable people on here about his family and gunsmithing, hopefully they chime in.

Matt

OldSouthRelics · « **Reply #4 on:** January 10, 2018, 05:23:15 PM »

Quote from: wildcatter on January 10, 2018, 04:38:07 PM

I'm going throw out another name, maybe William Loudenslager. There are a couple really knowledgeable people on here about his family and gunsmithing, hopefully they chime in.

Matt

Matt,

I completely understand why you did after finding a few photographs of Loudenslager made rifles. The patchbox release looks nearly identical to the style used by William Loudenslager, which in the photographs I viewed, seems to be located in the center of the crescent buttplate. That is very interesting. I know this wasn't an "uncommon" practice, so perhaps William Lloyd utilized that style patchbox release for this Rifle or William Loudenslager built a rifle with similar inlays.

Thank you for adding that and hopefully they do come share some of their knowledge and thoughts on the rifle.

Bob

Loudy · « **Reply #5 on:** January 12, 2018, 01:19:41 AM »

Bob,

Thank you very much for posting photos of your rifle. Your rifle certainly possesses many of the features seen on nicer guns from the so-called Upper Susquehanna school in Central Pennsylvania. The same eagle (or whatever kind of bird it is?) patchbox finial was used by several gunsmiths from that area. I lean towards William Laudenslager (Loudenslager, Lautenschlager, etc.) as the probable gunsmith. He worked in Union County (now Snyder Co.) and later Ohio. William had an older brother Samuel that was also a prolific maker. Both learned the trade from their uncle Samuel St. Clair. There are a few things about your gun that I would consider atypical relative to the several other Laudenslager attributed rifles that I am familiar with. First, the engraving on the patchbox lid and cheek inlay on your rifle is of a quality and style not seen on other rifles from the Laudenslager shops. The engraving done on other W.L. rifles is rather crude compared to your gun. It is certainly possible that the engraving could have been done by someone else there in the shop. Impossible to know for sure. Secondly, all other signatures on Laudenslager guns that I have seen have the initials separated by an engraved star. I don't see any star in your photos of the signature. William generally signed his guns W*L, and his brother signed his guns S*L. Please let me know if there is a star engraved between the W and L on your gun that couldn't be seen in the photos. Is the signature on your rifle readable from the lock side of the gun or the cheek-rest side of the gun? All Laudenslager guns that I have seen are readable from the cheek-rest side of the gun. Third, I can't see any sign of a rivet in lower ramrod entry pipe. The Laudenslager's typically used entry pipes that were constructed from two separate pieces of brass sheet (tail and pipe) held together with solder and a single copper or iron rivet. Please let me know if the rivet is there and just couldn't be seen in the photos. Is there any signs of wriggle engraving work on the trigger guard on your gun? The Laudenslager gunsmiths often used wriggle engraving to decorate their trigger guards. The patchbox catch and spring release mechanism on your gun is identical to those seen on other Laudenslager guns. I really like all the piercings seen on the patchbox sideplates, and comb & toe plate inlays on your gun. Have you had the barrel out of your rifle? I have found additional inscriptions on the bottom barrel flat on other Laudenslager guns. I am also curious to know the length of the barrel on your gun and whether or not there is any "swamp" to it. I would also like to know the width of the buttplate. I believe the percussion cap lock to be original to your gun. Thank you again for sharing the photos of you rifle. Your post was a very nice late Christmas present for me!

Mark "Loudy" Loudenslager

jdm · « **Reply #6 on:** January 12, 2018, 02:17:05 AM »

Mark,
Does the patch box door engraving look familiar to you???

Loudy · « **Reply #7 on:** January 12, 2018, 02:33:40 AM »

Jim,

How could I ever forget the "Donald Duck" gun! The nicest "Up The River" rifle I have ever beheld! Perhaps gunsmith Daniel Duck actually made Bob's gun? Maybe Mr. Duck only reused an older barrel from a gun made and signed by William Laudenslager or some other "W.L." gunsmith? Perhaps Mr. Duck only did the engraving on Bob's "W.L." gun? Now I am very curious to know more about any markings that might be on the bottom side of the barrel on Bob's rifle. Any signs that the barrel was originally on a different gun would be very good to know. Wow!

Thanks,
Mark

OldSouthRelics · « **Reply #8 on:** January 12, 2018, 05:00:35 AM »

Quote from: Loudy on January 12, 2018, 02:33:40 AM

Jim,

How could I ever forget the "Donald Duck" gun! The nicest "Up The River" rifle I have ever beheld! Perhaps gunsmith Daniel Duck actually made Bob's gun? Maybe Mr. Duck only reused an older barrel from a gun made and signed by William Laudenslager or some other "W.L." gunsmith? Perhaps Mr. Duck only did the engraving on Bob's "W.L." gun? Now I am very curious to know more about any markings that might be on the bottom side of the barrel on Bob's rifle. Any signs that the barrel was originally on a different gun would be very good to know. Wow!

Thanks,
Mark

Mark,

Thank you for stopping by and sharing your extensive family knowledge. I hope you had a happy holidays and i'm glad to hear the Rifle brings you some joy with the prospective of it being built by one of your Great Grandfathers. It's very handsome rifle in my opinion.

I will have to take the barrel off at the next opportunity, I have not had it off yet. I have read before that sometimes the barrels, from that particular region, have signatures and markings on the bottom of the barrels, so I'll definitely look and update you. Hopefully it will have some more information for us, and perhaps give us some more evidence to more definitively attribute the Rifle to someone.

I'll provide some overalls of the barrel when it is out so some more experienced members, including yourself, can form an opinion on the subject if the barrel was reused. If I notice anything out of the ordinary, I'll highlight it.

I believe there is no star between the WL signature, but I'll get another clearer picture of it, and double check. There is a small star behind the front site.

Who is this Daniel Duck you are speaking of if I may inquire? Did he build a Rifle with a similar patchbox engraving? Was he known to reuse older barrels?

This is one of those pieces where the more questions you answer.... the more questions arise. Thank you again for sharing your knowledge.

Regards,

Bob

Loudy · « **Reply #9 on:** January 12, 2018, 07:37:06 AM »

Bob,
Back several years ago I started a post on this site titled “Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle - Who Made It?” The post included several photos of a very very nice rifle with a heavily worn signature plate inlet into the top flat of the barrel. I would post a link to that post here if I could figure out how to do it. Maybe someone else can assist me with this? Anyway, to my eye the signature on that rifle appears to be “Danl Duck”. To date I have found very little documentation regarding a gunsmith by this name. Your rifle possesses many similarities to the “Danl Duck” rifle, particularly the engraving on the patchbox lid, star on the rear site, piercings on inlays, etc. It would be interesting to examine the two rifles side by side. The rifles are very similar... yet very different.
Mark

OldSouthRelics · « **Reply #10 on:** January 12, 2018, 03:37:36 PM »

Quote from: Loudy on January 12, 2018, 07:37:06 AM

Bob,
Back several years ago I started a post on this site titled “Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle - Who Made It?” The post included several photos of a very very nice rifle with a heavily worn signature plate inlet into the top flat of the barrel. I would post a link to that post here if I could figure out how to do it. Maybe someone else can assist me with this? Anyway, to my eye the signature on that rifle appears to be “Danl Duck”. To date I have found very little documentation regarding a gunsmith by this name. Your rifle possesses many similarities to the “Danl Duck” rifle, particularly the engraving on the patchbox lid, star on the rear site, piercings on inlays, etc. It would be interesting to examine the two rifles side by side. The rifles are very similar... yet very different.
Mark

Mark,

Thank you. This bit of information, or evidence, if you will... is quite substantial. I thank JDM for mentioning it. I actually have pictures, taken in the same location of my deck, so I honestly thought he posted a picture of my patchbox initially. Then I realized, I didn't post the pictures of the rifle on my deck and that patchbox is actually completely different. The door engraving is very similar, almost identical at first glance. Upon comparing them I noticed subtle differences in some of the details, but the similarities are so close, I don't think one can ignore the possibility that the same person performed the engraving, or the original "Donald Duck" engraver profoundly influenced this one.

Reading through your original post "Classic Upper Susquehanna Longrifle... I'd have to agree with the other members who suggested it is the Owner's name, not the gunsmith's. Having said that, perhaps this "Donald Duck" gentleman was just a well off individual, who ordered said rifle from your GGGGGreat Grandfather?

It's been some time since the original post you made, what are your current thoughts about the potential of that rifle being built by William Laudenslager?

It seems more likely to me, please keep in mind my amateur nature, that the same gunsmith probably built both the rifles, mine, and the one in your thread... as opposed to the engraver being the same. They both have the "Laudenslager Style Release", star on the site, very similar patchbox engravings, and similar inlays. The differences on my Rifle and the one in the thread you started, maybe showcases the differences between a Rifle built to order for a person, and one built for the general market by this gunsmith.

I would absolutely be game for comparing the Rifles side by side if the opportunity arises.

Here is a link to the original "Donald Duck" Rifle Thread, for anyone interested:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=15509.0

Thanks to JDM, Mark, Hilbly, and Wildcattr thus far for their input. I really appreciate your willingness to help.

jdm · « **Reply #11 on:** January 13, 2018, 03:21:10 AM »

Bob,
Thank you posting the link with pictures of the Donald Duck gun. I forgot Mark did that post. I was looking all through my old posts and couldn't understand where it went. Also thank you for posting pictures of your fine rifle. It's nice to know there is another with so many similarities .

Mark, Do you still have that legal document with Danl Ducks signature ? I lost it on my old computer.
What do you think about the Loudlenslager connection ?

Loudy · « **Reply #12 on:** January 13, 2018, 06:06:39 PM »

Bob,
I look forward to hearing new details that may or may not turn up on the bottom side of the barrel on your rifle. The style of patchbox lid release and spring mechanism used on your rifle is typical of that used by many Upper Susquehanna gunsmiths (Baum, Dreisbach, Morrison, Long, etc.). Please let me know which side of the rifle the WL signature on your gun is readable from. The signature on all Loudenslager (Samuel & William) rifles that I have seen has been readable from the cheek side of the gun. I can’t determine the orientation of the signature on your rifle from your photos.

Jim,
I will dig up that Danl Duck signature. I am not aware of any connection between Mr. Duck and any of the Loudenslager gunsmiths. The Danl Duck rifle was made earlier than most of the rifles that came out of the Laudenslager shops. I am looking into possible connections between Samuel St.Clair, the gunsmith (uncle) that Sam and William apprenticed under. The level of craftsmanship (carving, inletting, metal work, inlay design, engraving, etc.) seen on the Danl Duck rifle is superior to anything I have seen from these other gunmakers.

Shreckmeister · « **Reply #13 on:** January 13, 2018, 06:54:44 PM »

In a discussion of this nature I think we have to question ourselves if we are framing our beliefs on today's business model of everyone competing with each other versus some sort of cooperative effort for the production of long rifles. Having personally handled some 75 Long rifles made by William Schreckengost from 1840 to 1890, I would have to do much review to provide exact numbers, but I have seen rifles made by William Schreckengost using barrels of Anthony bonnet (3), Solomon Kempf, TH Allison and Nicholas Shennefelt. I've also seen rifles made by him that were signed John McCann, J Meetilson, Daniel Boyer and others. These people were not gunsmiths to our knowledge. Boyer was a relative. McCann was a nearby farmer and I have not located Mertilson. Another rifle is signed SJ Schreckengost who was a relative and may have worked in his shop. Some of the barrels with other gun Smith names on them are original to the rifles while others appear to be retrofitted later. Did some early collected do it or was it done in the period? I'd like to see a picture of the Daniel ducks signature if it could be posted. These are intriguing questions

OldSouthRelics · « **Reply #14 on:** January 13, 2018, 08:19:00 PM »

Quote from: Loudy on January 13, 2018, 06:06:39 PM

Bob,
I look forward to hearing new details that may or may not turn up on the bottom side of the barrel on your rifle. The style of patchbox lid release and spring mechanism used on your rifle is typical of that used by many Upper Susquehanna gunsmiths (Baum, Dreisbach, Morrison, Long, etc.). Please let me know which side of the rifle the WL signature on your gun is readable from. The signature on all Loudenslager (Samuel & William) rifles that I have seen has been readable from the cheek side of the gun. I can’t determine the orientation of the signature on your rifle from your photos.

Jim,
I will dig up that Danl Duck signature. I am not aware of any connection between Mr. Duck and any of the Loudenslager gunsmiths. The Danl Duck rifle was made earlier than most of the rifles that came out of the Laudenslager shops. I am looking into possible connections between Samuel St.Clair, the gunsmith (uncle) that Sam and William apprenticed under. The level of craftsmanship (carving, inletting, metal work, inlay design, engraving, etc.) seen on the Danl Duck rifle is superior to anything I have seen from these other gunmakers.

Thank you JDM, I very much appreciate that. The only way, in my opinion, one can properly research these mysterious arms is to get as many examples as we can photographed, the more we discover, the more we learn about the makers and owners. I think my rifle, which I think I'll start to call the "Donald Duck Rifle No. 2", and the Donald Duck Rifle No.1 are perfect examples of why sharing photographs of these arms is important.

I have so many thoughts on this Rifle, I'll have to devote sometime this evening to writing them all down. I'll stick to addressing the important question Mark asked initially at the moment, and stating some observations I just made, rather than rambling on.

This signature is readable from the Patchbox Side, so we have a substantial difference there. I forgot to answer that question originally, I apologize.

While looking to see which side the signature was readable from, I held it up to one of my shop lights. It gives a much different kind of light than the sun, and sometimes reveals things the sun will not. I found what appears to be a stamped name, but only the last three letters, on the check side of the barrel. They are "K E R" There are also 4 very distinct dots near the barrel tang I forgot to mention, and that same distinct dot separates the W and L on my Rifle.

I'll post pictures soon. I'm going to take the barrel off in a moment, and I'll post an update of what I discover and more pictures.

Shreckmeister touches on what I've been thinking about regarding this Rifle. There are many possibilities regarding the origin of the Rifle as a whole... but now with two similar examples, hopefully we can eliminate a few.

jdm · « **Reply #15 on:** January 13, 2018, 10:52:26 PM »

Rob, Here's a couple of old pictures of the signature on the Duck gun ( I just love saying Duck Gun). I have a better camera now and might try taking some more.

Was Bob's gun made later with parts from an earlier gun ? Are they both by the same maker or by master and apprentice ? Maybe one guy is doing piece work picking up extra money. I believe Jacob Kuntz did a lot of engraving work for John Rupp. Henry, Tryon, Derringer . They all exchanged parts if not work.
Bob Is the stamped " K E R " on the top flat or side flat of the barrel ?

Rob, You are so wright . Guns with owners names are not uncommon. In the last two hundred years who knows what parts have been changed around . During the working life of the rifle or after words with restoration.

OldSouthRelics · « **Reply #16 on:** January 13, 2018, 11:26:59 PM »

I do enjoy saying Donald Duck as well. Well I took the barrel off, and it appears we have something other than an all original gun. It looks like the stock and the barrel were "mated" together. They don't not appear original to each other. Here are the pictures, let me know what you guys think. There were no markings I saw on the bottom of the barrel. I have included clearer photographs of the W L signature, and of the stamped name, which is located on the side barrel flat, cheek side, upside down..... so you actually have to awkwardly look from the lock side to the other flat to read it. Interesting?

Note the two screw holes in the tang channel, and the "new" groves in the barrel channel of the stock to accompany the barrel.

Shreckmeister · « **Reply #17 on:** January 13, 2018, 11:51:55 PM »

If you look closely. The K E R is the remnants of Pannebecker. I can see the C clearly and many rifle barrels from central PA
bear his stamp.

jdm · « **Reply #18 on:** January 14, 2018, 12:53:48 AM »

Good call Rob,I was also thinking along those lines.

OldSouthRelics · « **Reply #19 on:** January 14, 2018, 01:22:56 AM »

Quote from: jdm on January 14, 2018, 12:53:48 AM

Good call Rob,I was also thinking along those lines.

Jim,

I'm not quite sure what to think past that notion at the moment. I was honestly quite surprised, given some of the evidence provided by the Donald Duck Rifle, such as the Star on the barrel, and the patchbox engraving being the similar. It was my thought that since my Rifle had a similar barrel decoration, and similar patchbox engraving, that the stock and barrel would be original to each other. This is one of those moments where I have to remind myself there are exceptions to every rule, and there are potential surprises everywhere in the antique gun collecting world.

With this new evidence, I'd definitely like to hear theories and opinions about when these were mated, and for what potential purpose. Do you think these were older rifle parts mated together by said "Donald Duck" gunsmith for "period" use? Or do I have an actual product of purposeful deception created post 1900?

Loudy · « **Reply #20 on:** January 14, 2018, 02:09:25 AM »

Bob, Jim, Rob,

Below is a link to an auction site that back in November of last year sold another “WL” longrifle.

http://auctions.garths.com/asp/fullcatalogue.asp?salelot=1170+++++561+&refno=++311781&image=5&mypage=1

I have no idea who made this “WL” rifle. Perhaps it was the same WL that signed the barrel on Bob’s rifle?

I am withdrawing my attribution of Bob’s rifle to William Laudenslager. I totally jumped the gun on this one. I think I was seeing what I was wanting to see and not what I was actually seeing. At this point, all I can confidently say is that Bob’s gun was made by a gunsmith that learned the trade in the Upper Susquehanna school area. To my eye the engraving on the patchbox lids on “Donald Duck Gun #1” and “Donald Duck Gun #2” were done by the same hand. The rear site on both guns are also very similar. Those are the primary similarities. The pierced comb plate and toe plate are seen on guns from several different Upper Susquehanna gunmakers.

Bob,
Thank you for all the additional photos of your gun. The additional info gained by taking the barrel off is very interesting. More questions than answers.

Mark

jdm · « **Reply #21 on:** January 14, 2018, 02:18:16 AM »

Bob,
Just leaving to meet some friends for dinner . To ease your fears at first glance I don't believe there is any deception going on. It is not uncommon for rifles from that area to have barrels from the Pannebecker family. Might even be a plus. You have a fine rifle and would add value to any collection. Got to go

Loudy · « **Reply #22 on:** January 14, 2018, 04:00:38 AM »

Bob,
I totally agree with Jim’s last post. I have really enjoyed the opportunity to see photos of your rifle. Just because the barrel was used on a previous gun doesn’t mean that W.L. (whoever he was?) wasn’t the gunsmith that stocked your gun. My main reasons for backing up on my attribution of your rifle to William Laudenslager was that the signature is readable from the lock side of the gun and because there is no star engraved between the initials. These features are consistently seen on the Loudenslager guns that I have examined (abt. 35). I will see what additional information I can find regarding Danl Duck. I am starting to lean toward the suggestion that he was the original owner of the gun and not the maker. Whoever made the so-called Donald Duck rifle was certainly a skilled and experienced gun maker. I would think other guns made and signed by him would have survived. Thank you again for initiating this discussion thread.
Mark

OldSouthRelics · « **Reply #23 on:** January 14, 2018, 04:57:10 AM »

It has been my pleasure to post the pictures and start the discussion. Thank you Jim and Mark for easing my fears regarding deception. I wonder if said gunsmith was just into recycling before it became popular.

All jokes aside. It has been very interesting, and should occupy countless hours of my mind with the possibilities.

Regards,

Bob

jdm · « **Reply #24 on:** January 14, 2018, 08:01:56 AM »

Mark, Thanks for your research in this area . We may have two by the same maker sooooo maybe theres more out there.
Bob another thought and that's all it is . Maybe a previous, in period of use owner, wanted a different caliber for what ever reason and it was easier for a gunsmith to just trade out barrels .

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Author Topic: W.L. Signed Rifle (Read 6087 times)