Author Topic: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern  (Read 13688 times)

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2018, 05:46:31 AM »
Smo,

Do as Rich says above.
You don't Aim a shotgun, you just look over the top of the barrel at the target. Keep your head up. If you see half the barrel all well and good.
This'll bring up your poi no end.  Aiming will mess up spontaneous shooting.

Try this;
point at summat with your index finger of your left hand;  (If you shoot right handed)  New, look along your finger.  Is it pointing at what you were looking at?
Yes, unless your boss-eyed, your finger will be pointing straight at it.
Now, turn yur left hand palm up and try pointing.  Still works doesn't it?
That's Natural hand-eye co-ordination.

Lastly;  Pick up your shotgun. point with your index finger  but now holding the fore-end.  Your gun will be pointing where your finger's pointing, and that is at the target . Forget about looking at the gun barrel at all. In fact , if you Notice the barrels in flying shooting. you'll likely miss.
Don't aim just be spontaneous and you'll connect all right.

Try it and see.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 06:27:02 AM by Pukka Bundook »

Offline John SMOthermon

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2018, 07:51:02 AM »
You have to get higher on the gun and see more of the barrel if you are shooting low.


Rich,
The gun shoots 6Ē low and 3Ē left with a roundball.
Iím sighting using the tang screw as a windage guide, leveling the high point of the tang (just ahead of the screw)with the bottom left corner of the base of the front sight now.
Iím trying to get the center mass of the off the point of aim shot pattern too center over the target.
If I see anymore barrel , it covers the target.

Smo

Good Luck & Good Shootin'

Offline John SMOthermon

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2018, 07:53:49 AM »
Som,

Do as Rich says above.
You don't Aim a shotgun, you just look over the top of the barrel at the target. Keep your head up. If you see half the barrel all well and good.
This'll bring up your poi no end.  Aiming will mess up spontaneous shooting.

Try this;
point at summat with your index finger of your left hand;  (If you shoot right handed)  New, look along your finger.  Is it pointing at what you were looking at?
Yes, unless your boss-eyed, your finger will be pointing straight at it.
Now, turn yur left hand palm up and try pointing.  Still works doesn't it?
That's Natural hand-eye co-ordination.

Lastly;  Pick up your shotgun. point with your index finger  but now holding the fore-end.  Your gun will be pointing where your finger's pointing, and that is at the target . Forget about looking at the gun barrel at all. In fact , if you Notice the barrels in flying shooting. you'll likely miss.
Don't aim just be spontaneous and you'll connect all right.

Try it and see.

Good advice , but the gun donít shoot Roundball where youíre pointing so I assumed shot would follow a similar path...

More testing too come Friday.
Smo

Good Luck & Good Shootin'

Barngunguy

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2018, 02:04:54 PM »
I've read with interest.
Last week I purchased a new shotgun, it has a 38 in Turkey choke barrel in it. It shoots about 8 to 10 inches low at 30 yds. The shot pattern is decent, its just low.
I've tried several different load combinations, every one hits the same area, low.
I already cover the target with end of barrel.

Are there other options yet to try?

I'm considering trying to bend the barrel.

Offline Brokennock

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2018, 05:09:07 PM »
I've read with interest.
Last week I purchased a new shotgun, it has a 38 in Turkey choke barrel in it. It shoots about 8 to 10 inches low at 30 yds. The shot pattern is decent, its just low.
I've tried several different load combinations, every one hits the same area, low.
I already cover the target with end of barrel.

Are there other options yet to try?

I'm considering trying to bend the barrel.

There is a topic on the "other" forum, where discussion of this alternate loading method started, entitled "muzzle filing worked," the o.p. reported that his smoothbore had been shoot g low and that stoning or file about .003 from the bottom edge of the muzzle raised his point of impact about 3 to 4 inches. I had heard of this method of regulating a shotgun barrels point of impact before, but of course it started a big "discussion.," especially with barrel bending advocates. I figure one can resquare the muzzle easier than trying to bend it back toward the starting point if one adjusts too far.

Offline John SMOthermon

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2018, 06:44:43 PM »
What I was told by Guys who have successfully bent barrels over the years is...

They always bend the barrel more than is required due to flex of the steel.
 
If you go too far.... simply ease it back the other way.

These Guys do it by feel in a tree fork. Most have been shooting m/l longer than many of us have been alive.

Iíve read about filing the muzzle as well, Iím not sure how much you gain doing this.... would it move a shot pattern as much as a foot? IDK....

Would it move the POI with a Roundball? IDK...

But I would be willing too give it a try, before bending the barrel.
 
It would be easy to re- square the end of the barrel if needed.

Smo

Good Luck & Good Shootin'

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2018, 06:52:08 PM »
Smo,

I was presuming you were using shot, not ball.

Many old Long barrels were bent up towards the muzzle. Had to do that with my 44" Gets 16 bore.

You just sort of spring it, by feel.

Offline John SMOthermon

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2018, 07:28:17 PM »
Thatís what they say.... Spring it as you say, past the required amount then slowly bring it back the other direction until it hits the point of aim.
They claim as you gently increase the strength of your pull, you can feel the barrel as it starts too move.
Some of the Guys Iíve talked to are National Championship record holders or have been at some point,some of whom have long standing records still on the books.

Like I said in a previous post, if a gun donít shoot round ballís too the point of aim, I assume shot would follow a similar path.  Iím my case low and left.

Smo

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Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2018, 07:33:49 PM »
Smo,

I don't bend the barrel further than it needs , just spring it gently and watch it flex, then look along it to see if there is a little set.  If it still looks straight, spring it gently, but  a bit more. It's all by feel.

The most scary is straightening old twist barrels.  They come with all kinds of dog-legs in them at times.

Offline rollingb

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2018, 08:53:50 PM »
You have to get higher on the gun and see more of the barrel if you are shooting low.


Rich,
The gun shoots 6Ē low and 3Ē left with a roundball.
Iím sighting using the tang screw as a windage guide, leveling the high point of the tang (just ahead of the screw)with the bottom left corner of the base of the front sight now.
Iím trying to get the center mass of the off the point of aim shot pattern too center over the target.
If I see anymore barrel , it covers the target.
The front sight should remain "on target" when aiming.
What you do in case your shots are going low, is raise your head a bit while keeping the front sight on target,.... similar to raising a rear sight to gain elevation. In other words, your "eye" actually becomes the rear sight when shooting a smoothbore that only has a front sight.  :)

The same principle works for lateral adjustment if you need to move the ball's POI "right or left" a bit (just like drifting a rear sight on a rifle to make adjustments).

All this takes practice and a subconscious awareness of the pressure your cheek is putting on the gun's stock.

I hope that makes sense.
Try it, and if you can't make it work, then think of bending the barrel or filing the muzzle.
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Offline John SMOthermon

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2018, 09:49:52 PM »
Thanks RB,

Thatís what I think Iíve been doing, compensating for shooting left by aiming off the left side of the front sight vs the center. Pulling my aim point down to the bottom / base of where the front sight meets the barrel to give the barrel more elevation vs using the tip of the front sight.

With a Roundball I can aim slightly above (2 to 3Ē ) the 2,o'clock position of a 6Ē target at 25 yards to hit  the center of the target off a bag rest.

I really want too be able to aim at what Iím shooting at vs an imaginary point completely off the target Iím intending to shoot. Kentucky Windage.....arrrrrg.

I can understand sighting using KW at a long distance , but at 25 yards I would think one shouldnít have to use it. Thereís got to be a better way....

I attribute it to shooting a bow instinctively , using the hump of the tang just in front of the tang screw too align the base of the front sight with the target.
 
In my peripheral vision I center the slot in the tang screw with the lower left corner of the front sight where it attaches to the barrel.

I plan on using the gun for both hunting and match shooting.

Am I expecting too much from the gun?

Thanks
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 09:52:24 PM by Smo »
Smo

Good Luck & Good Shootin'

Offline rollingb

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2018, 11:16:47 PM »
Thanks RB,

Thatís what I think Iíve been doing, compensating for shooting left by aiming off the left side of the front sight vs the center. Pulling my aim point down to the bottom / base of where the front sight meets the barrel to give the barrel more elevation vs using the tip of the front sight.

With a Roundball I can aim slightly above (2 to 3Ē ) the 2,o'clock position of a 6Ē target at 25 yards to hit  the center of the target off a bag rest.

I really want too be able to aim at what Iím shooting at vs an imaginary point completely off the target Iím intending to shoot. Kentucky Windage.....arrrrrg.

I can understand sighting using KW at a long distance , but at 25 yards I would think one shouldnít have to use it. Thereís got to be a better way....

I attribute it to shooting a bow instinctively , using the hump of the tang just in front of the tang screw too align the base of the front sight with the target.
 
In my peripheral vision I center the slot in the tang screw with the lower left corner of the front sight where it attaches to the barrel.

I plan on using the gun for both hunting and match shooting.

Am I expecting too much from the gun?

Thanks
No, you're not expecting too much (IMHO),.... if you've worked up an accurate load for your smoothie.

You can use almost any "sight picture" to find the load your gun likes,.... AS LONG as you use the same exact sight picture EACH and EVERY time you fire a shot.
Once you've found the load your smoothie is most accurate with,... THEN start concentratin' on where your eye and cheek need to be to move your "groups" on target.
In order to do this you must concentrate on keeping the tip of your front sight ON the target,... ALL other "adjustments" are a combination of "cheek pressure and eye".

I'm sure you've heard the saying "Beware of the man who has only one gun, because he probably shoots it very well".
IMHO,... that "saying" is especially true for a man who shoots a smooth bore.

Last summer, at the rendezvous south of the Museum of the Fur Trade at Chadron, Nebraska, I watched a guy win the candle-shoot by snuffing the candle's flame 4 consecutive times.
He out shot all the other competitors using rifles with rear sights.

After the shoot, he and I had a long chat around my campfire, as he told me all he has shot since 1998 is his CenterMark Tulle Fusil De Chasse.  :o
We talked at length about what works best for him, and since then I've concentrated on what he told me and have worked to apply what he told me to my smoothbore shooting, and it HAS made an improvement.  :)
He about floored me, when he also said,.... "I can shoot it (the Tulle) equally well with either hand",... (now THAT is something I'll never learn to do with a smoothbore, at my age  :'(



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Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2018, 11:26:52 PM »
FWIW Smo,

If the post above doesn't help as it should, could you make a rear sight?
 I did one for an antique rifle that shows no sign of ever having one.  I made the sight to just sit on top of the barrel, and with a piece of leather with a split in it, (for the sight to peep up through) I laced it down snug over the fore-end.

This way you don't do anything permanent to the gun, but it might help for ball shooting.

Just a a thought.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2018, 11:43:23 PM »
Richard

You hit it exactly, what is "normal wadding"?, when I started with a muzzleloader shotgun, I got a different "normal" load from everyone I asked.

To this day I don't know what would be considered "normal wadding", I know my first few range trips almost made me give up on the gun.

I think when people say normal 'shotgun' wadding, the mean just that - normal wadding - the way shotgun "shells" were NORMALLY loaded since that era of enlightenment(breech loaders), but prior to plastic wads.
 
Normally consisting of:

1/8" to 1/4" over powder hard card wad -

cushion wad9s0 of various heights from 3/8" and thicker - of compressed horse hair if you are Russian or today mostly donaconna

thin overshot card - again, normal. The normal crimp was a rolled crimp.  Normal for Frnech shotshells was a clear overshot card, so you could see the shot size.

All of these are normal shotshell wadding. Today, there are a miriad of differently shaped and sized plastic wads, so they are also now quite 'normal'

The standard cards, fibers, etc are what is usually considered normal.

For the filler, cushion wad,  there was a Swedish cup-wad which improved patters somewhat in cylinder bores, but more so in choked bores. Other loaders used 2 cushion wads, one with
 a hole in the middle to hold extra shot, hidden but only known by the loader. These were used mostly for cheating at patterning contests in England as the hollowed out wad held 'extra shot' which struck close to the centre of the page, thus seemingly to increase the shot count.  Some of these sort of ideas might help today for increasing shot in the killing pattern, which is why some experiment with post-it note pad papers and coin wrappers. Those might just be the trick for getting usable long range patterns, just like the Green wrapped Ely ctgs.

Out to 40 or 50 yards or so, they shot like a slug, meant for shooting deer and wolves, only letting the shot fly freely, after that.  There were even ctgs. of shot for shooting out to 100yards in the larger bores.

There is no normal wadding for muzzleloaders. People NORMALLY use whatever they can invent or imagine, from toilet paper to old rages to wasp nest
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 12:26:35 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline rollingb

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2018, 11:44:22 PM »
FWIW Smo,

If the post above doesn't help as it should, could you make a rear sight?
 I did one for an antique rifle that shows no sign of ever having one.  I made the sight to just sit on top of the barrel, and with a piece of leather with a split in it, (for the sight to peep up through) I laced it down snug over the fore-end.

This way you don't do anything permanent to the gun, but it might help for ball shooting.

Just a a thought.
..... one could even use rawhide to simulate a "repair" (if need be).  :)
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Offline John SMOthermon

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2018, 11:50:56 PM »
Thanks Guys   
Smo

Good Luck & Good Shootin'

Offline Daryl

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2018, 01:01:23 AM »
"The front sight should remain "on target" when aiming.
What you do in case your shots are going low, is raise your head a bit while keeping the front sight on target,.... similar to raising a rear sight to gain elevation. In other words, your "eye" actually becomes the rear sight when shooting a smoothbore that only has a front sight.  :)

The same principle works for lateral adjustment if you need to move the ball's POI "right or left" a bit (just like drifting a rear sight on a rifle to make adjustments).

All this takes practice and a subconscious awareness of the pressure your cheek is putting on the gun's stock.

I hope that makes sense.
Try it, and if you can't make it work, then think of bending the barrel or filing the muzzle."

then

"No, you're not expecting too much (IMHO),.... if you've worked up an accurate load for your smoothie.

You can use almost any "sight picture" to find the load your gun likes,.... AS LONG as you use the same exact sight picture EACH and EVERY time you fire a shot.
Once you've found the load your smoothie is most accurate with,... THEN start concentratin' on where your eye and cheek need to be to move your "groups" on target.
In order to do this you must concentrate on keeping the tip of your front sight ON the target,... ALL other "adjustments" are a combination of "cheek pressure and eye".

I'm sure you've heard the saying "Beware of the man who has only one gun, because he probably shoots it very well".
IMHO,... that "saying" is especially true for a man who shoots a smooth bore.

Last summer, at the rendezvous south of the Museum of the Fur Trade at Chadron, Nebraska, I watched a guy win the candle-shoot by snuffing the candle's flame 4 consecutive times.
He out shot all the other competitors using rifles with rear sights.

After the shoot, he and I had a long chat around my campfire, as he told me all he has shot since 1998 is his CenterMark Tulle Fusil De Chasse.  :o
We talked at length about what works best for him, and since then I've concentrated on what he told me and have worked to apply what he told me to my smoothbore shooting, and it HAS made an improvement.  :)
He about floored me, when he also said,.... "I can shoot it (the Tulle) equally well with either hand",... (now THAT is something I'll never learn to do with a smoothbore, at my age  :'() "

This is gold, as well as his earlier post included at the start of the above quote"!
Daryl

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Barngunguy

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2018, 01:38:57 AM »
I've read with interest.
Last week I purchased a new shotgun, it has a 38 in Turkey choke barrel in it. It shoots about 8 to 10 inches low at 30 yds. The shot pattern is decent, its just low.
I've tried several different load combinations, every one hits the same area, low.
I already cover the target with end of barrel.

Are there other options yet to try?

I'm considering trying to bend the barrel.

There is a topic on the "other" forum, where discussion of this alternate loading method started, entitled "muzzle filing worked," the o.p. reported that his smoothbore had been shoot g low and that stoning or file about .003 from the bottom edge of the muzzle raised his point of impact about 3 to 4 inches. I had heard of this method of regulating a shotgun barrels point of impact before, but of course it started a big "discussion.," especially with barrel bending advocates. I figure one can resquare the muzzle easier than trying to bend it back toward the starting point if one adjusts too far.

Thanks for the info.

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2018, 05:22:29 AM »
Daryl,

In the above when talking about Normal wadding for a M-loader, I was meaning Traditional normal wadding. Most stuff available for modern guns is no good in a muzzle-loading gun.

Very sorry for not clarifying.
  I think that the reason we sometimes  get lousy patterns with these old guns is because we often feed them the wrong diet.
Feed them right and we should be able to duplicate the good long range shooting they did in their hay-day.

Best regards,
Richard.

Offline Skychief

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2018, 06:51:44 AM »
Pukka, normal or conventional load construction , to me, means:

Powder
Hard card
Cushion wad
Shot
Thin card

I think most would agree.

Best regards, Skychief

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2018, 07:27:27 AM »
Yes, Normal These Days Skychief, But Not normal in the early 1800s.....and That is what I am talking about.

 I firmly believe that this is the reason for our Not being able to replicate their shooting standards with our  modern notions of how a load should be built.
My 'Normal " loads are as near as poss. to the way it was recommended to us by the old sages of the time, and found in my guns, (all but one an original admittedly )  that their way Was  better than "Our" way.
I wonder at times why we think we know better and ignore the old blokes who grew up using guns of this type?

Somewhere in this discussion on here or the other forum, I wrote down Col. Peter Hawker's recommendations on charging the gun.  This was from his book, "Instructions to Young Sportsmen..."  The first edition going to print in 1816 I believe,  and my copy being a reproduction of the 7th printing , of 1833.
If we choose to ignore his methods, which he went to great pains to bring them to our attention, then be it on our own heads. 
So , My friend, This has Nothing to do with Your findings, or meant as a negative towards them, but merely pointing out what I mean by Normal loads.  :-)

All the best Skychief,

Richard.

Offline Skychief

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2018, 07:53:33 AM »
I see Richard.  I misunderstood thinking you were asking for what most consider a "normal" modern load chain.

All the best to you friend.

Best regards, Skychief.

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2018, 08:23:16 AM »
Skychief,

My guns sitting by the door, waiting for me to take it out and try Your loads!  Snow forecast from now till weekend, and Maybe 2 feet of it or more.
Been cold , minus 25 C to -35 C, so hardly Play out weather....

I will keep you posted :-)

All the best,
R.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2018, 10:59:37 PM »
My little 1/2-stocked kinda English styled pelter, has a slight choke at the muzzle. It actually prefers 'almost modern' normal shot-load wadding system - hard card, fiber cushion, then thin card, then 1oz #7 1/2's, then thin overshot card.

With 68gr. 2F to 75gr. 2f, this loads powders clay birds. It patterns a strong modified with this loading.



upload pictures to web



image of a safe
Daryl

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Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2018, 11:53:46 PM »
Daryl, Nice looking gun!

Maybe the modern loading complements the modern boring.

Will try Mr. Skychiefs loads in my old (1811 or 1812) flint double, and a few others, plus my homemade "Griffin" W a 44" tube.