Author Topic: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern  (Read 13689 times)

Offline Daryl

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #50 on: February 09, 2018, 03:03:48 AM »
I suspect we should/will try those loads with the oiled wad over the shot in Taylor's non choked guns this spring.

I am sure the choke at the end of the tube is the reason my 20 bore shoots such wonderful patterns. 
Daryl

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Offline John SMOthermon

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #51 on: February 09, 2018, 07:04:03 AM »
I fired a few more Skychief loads out of my 16 gauge today.

It looks like for my gun about 22 to 23 yards is all i'm going to get out of it.

At 25 the pattern opens up too much ... it pretty much covered a 2' x 2' paper with very few killing hits.



20 yard target

Smo

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Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #52 on: February 09, 2018, 07:13:45 PM »
I'm sure it can do better Smo.

Try an old load;
Start light.  It keeps pressure down.
same 65 grains of powder, maybe 2 F, no smaller.
a thin card wad, and a wool felt wad, no more than 1/3 diameter of the bore. (About .22 thick....Slice one down if needs be) 1 1/4 ounces of shot.
Top wad of what you like. Dry grass works, a small roll of newspaper, a thin card wad.  really you should do a few and try them all.  Paper that oranges come wrapped in is good as it's pretty tender stuff.

Maybe try a close shot of maybe 10 or 15 yards, to make sure you're hitting with the centre of your pattern.

Pleas try it.  It Might just work in your gun. 
All best,

Richard. 

Offline Daryl

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #53 on: February 09, 2018, 10:01:22 PM »
Yeah - kind of went to pot in that extra 15'. As Richard noted, use a large enough piece of paper to see where the centre of the pattern is.

There seems an inordinate amount of shot on the left side of the page.  Perhaps that is the centre of your pattern?  To properly pattern

shotguns, usually takes a lot of shots -per individual load.  Marking the pellet hits with a felt pen really helps see them better. A pointed felt

pen merely poked into the hole is wonderful for this, rather than a slash as some writers do.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline John SMOthermon

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #54 on: February 09, 2018, 10:40:15 PM »
Hereís the same two targets on a 2í x2í paper...



Smo

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Offline Daryl

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #55 on: February 10, 2018, 06:31:45 AM »
The left bias in the group is quite evident in these larger pictures.
1/. Either the eye was on the left side of centre at the breech - or -
2/. The gun shoots to the left. 

The remedy is either bending the barrel which will work and likely be permanent, but some form of visual line or reference for your eye alignment might be an alternative route.

Do patched round balls have this same left bias?

Increasing or decreasing powder or shot charge may also change impact centres.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 06:32:23 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline John SMOthermon

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #56 on: February 10, 2018, 07:13:51 AM »
Yep, everything is low and left.

Iím working on the eye alignment now.

Thereís been some great tips about temp. rear sights and such.

Weíre getting there ... slowly but surely.

Iím just trying every alternative out there before bending.
Smo

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Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #57 on: February 10, 2018, 09:58:03 AM »
Smo,

Try it this way,

Keep your head upright and put gun to your shoulder look over the barrel.
  If you can see a lot of barrel and not just the tang and front sight , all the better. 
Holding it like this, is your eye over the centre of the breech?   I fit is, you should be OK for right & left unless barrel is already bent.
Put your left thumb over the top of the barrel.  Do this where your forward hand normally holds the gun. 
 Can you still see the front bead?  If so, Good!   This should mean that holding the gun in this fashion, you are now giving it some extra elevation.

What I think was happening is that if you are dropping your head to look 'down the sights" so to speak, you were running into the comb, and it wasn't allowing your head to get over to the centre of the barrel quite.
And, with dropping your head, you were "lowering the back sight ".  (shooting low)  If you keep head upright, and just look Over the barrel rather than Along it, you Will shoot higher.
Many good shotguns come up in this fashion, so that you see the full length of the barrels, not just breech and front sight.  In fact All the shotguns I can shoot with, if I look at the barrels at all, they are always in full view all the way from breech to muzzle.
One other thing, shoot with both eyes open!

Sorry, this must sound like you're back at school.  It's not meant that way, but rifles and shotguns are very different.   See if it helps.

Offline John SMOthermon

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #58 on: February 10, 2018, 06:07:42 PM »
I understand what you Guys are saying, I grew up hunting quail with a bolt action shotgun that was missing the front bead . 

So pointing a shotgun comes natural for me. But Iím all ears and willing to try different approaches.

Iíve talked with several people who do shoot smoothbores as if they were a rifle with great success.
 
Some have even filed a groove the the tang to be used as a rear sight.

If I sight down the barrel , using the tang screw as a centering point for my eye the gun shoots low and left.

Raising my head so to speak , I still see the tang screw in my peripheral vision this should keep my eye centered while maintaining a solid anchor point on my cheek.

I do see more barrel doing this , but still have to shoot off the bottom left hand corner of the front sight to bring the pattern or ball on target.

By doing this itís like shooting a bow instinctively , which I did for several years so I understand that principle as well.

What Iím trying to do is get the gun where it ďCAN ď be sighted like a rifle.
Not necessarily as much for hunting, but more for novelty and woods walk shooting.

Even for hunting , I want to be able to point and shoot , without having to remember where or how much to hold off of or above the animal. Thatís my main goal.

Iím trying to get to where I can look/ sight down/along  the center of the barrel using the tip of the front sight on the center of the target and hit where Iím looking.

At this point I do need to file the front sight down some , but I donít think I can go as low as I need too which I know means raising the rear which means raising my head more.
Iím using a small dot of white out on the base of the front sight now to simulate a shorter bead.
But thatís not what Iím looking for ....

  I hope this makes sense ...
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 06:27:56 PM by Smo »
Smo

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Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #59 on: February 10, 2018, 06:20:36 PM »
Yes, it all makes sense Smo, and I'm just wearing you out with ideas!
 
It sounds like a bit of bend might be required.  It Was a solution for long barrels shooting off.

Offline John SMOthermon

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #60 on: February 10, 2018, 06:36:20 PM »
Iím in agreement , itís just frustrating getting there.

Back to the original post, the load does show an improvement in patterning out of my gun compaired to a more conventional loading sequence .

Itís well worth testing in your guns.



 
Smo

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Lobo

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #61 on: April 11, 2019, 05:05:25 PM »
I've always liked to load my smoothbore with 80gr's of 2FF, over powder card, 90gr's of #5 shot then over shot card. I use to load a fiber wad behind the shot but stopped doing that because it was said the wad would blow a hole in your shot pattern. This time I loaded my same load but I pushed a oil soaked fiber wad down to top it off. My smooth bore is a 16ga Fusil Fine with a 46" cylinder bore barrel, at 25 yds this was my pattern. I think I can kill a turkey out to 30yds, I'll do more testing before the season opens later this month, maybe back the powder charge down to 70grs and see what happens.





Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #62 on: April 11, 2019, 05:59:11 PM »
I haven't read this thread, so this info might have been mentioned already.

When I was younger and made a living trap shooting. The pattern our guns shot was very important.

We all shot the same ammo which was factory ammo. I use to shoot 1-2 cases a week. Nobody reloaded because back then we couldn't buy the hard shot that factory loads had.

 Al Timney used to come to all the shoots to do trigger mods for everybody. He also did work on the chokes. It was amazing how much better the pattern looked after he did his magic on the choke. I used to shoot a single shot Perazzi and you would think it would come with a good pattern since it was a dedicated trap gun. Yet, Al could make it shoot better.

My point is for those who can't get your gun to shoot a good pattern. Maybe some choke work will help. I have no idea what Al did to the choke and he was talking about it either. I'm sure there are gunsmiths that know what to do.

Offline Skychief

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #63 on: April 13, 2019, 04:54:53 AM »
I've always liked to load my smoothbore with 80gr's of 2FF, over powder card, 90gr's of #5 shot then over shot card. I use to load a fiber wad behind the shot but stopped doing that because it was said the wad would blow a hole in your shot pattern. This time I loaded my same load but I pushed a oil soaked fiber wad down to top it off. My smooth bore is a 16ga Fusil Fine with a 46" cylinder bore barrel, at 25 yds this was my pattern. I think I can kill a turkey out to 30yds, I'll do more testing before the season opens later this month, maybe back the powder charge down to 70grs and see what happens.





Good luck this Spring Ron.  Hope you leave a trail of feathers in your wake!

Best regards, Skychief.

Offline Dennis Daigger

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #64 on: April 13, 2019, 05:16:15 AM »
A really timely discussion for me.  I'm headed to east Washington in May to hunt turkeys with my mid-1800's ( pretty sure it's 1849 1/2 ;)) Wiengandt 16 gauge double.  The attached image is a 25 yard 1 1/4 oz load with 75 grains of 2F and a 1/8" nitro overpowder wad, 1/4" cushion and an overshot card.  The raised circle is 3" in diameter.  I'm not sure how to evaluate this.  Maybe the turkey died and if it was a good day for him, he didn't.  I'm not sure what to think about this but am interested in opinions.


« Last Edit: April 13, 2019, 07:33:59 PM by Dennis Daigger »

Offline Marcruger

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #65 on: April 13, 2019, 04:37:39 PM »
To an old Southern boy, those cushion wads soaking remind me of sausage!  I bet sausage would release that much oil and grease too.   Hah.   God Bless,   Marc

Offline smokinbuck

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #66 on: April 14, 2019, 12:03:32 AM »
I have several shotguns, new and old, that my grandson and I shoot trap with and have settled on one common factor. The loads may change as they are both 20 ga and 12 ga but we do not use cushioned wads in any of our guns. Typical 12 ga would be 3 drams of FFg, over powder card, equal amount  by volume #7.5 or #9 shot and an over shot card. Typical 20 ga load is exactly the same. these loads smoke clays all the way back to 22 yards. The 20 ga is a Powell SXS  from Birmingham with 38" barrels, made in 1850.
Mark
Mark

Lobo

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #67 on: April 14, 2019, 03:24:24 PM »
Quote
I have several shotguns, new and old, that my grandson and I shoot trap with and have settled on one common factor. The loads may change as they are both 20 ga and 12 ga but we do not use cushioned wads in any of our guns. Typical 12 ga would be 3 drams of FFg, over powder card, equal amount  by volume #7.5 or #9 shot and an over shot card. Typical 20 ga load is exactly the same. these loads smoke clays all the way back to 22 yards. The 20 ga is a Powell SXS  from Birmingham with 38" barrels, made in 1850.
Mark


Mark, load a oil soaked fiber wad on top of the shot and you'll be smoking clays out to 32 yards.  ;D

Offline Daryl

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Re: Odd shotgun load to improve pattern
« Reply #68 on: April 14, 2019, 08:50:56 PM »
Smo - what do the patterns with just over shot, thin cards between the powder and shot look like?

I won a trap shoot with an H. Wahl 11 bore, using 3drams 2F (82gr.), 2 thin cards, then 1 1/4oz. 7 1/2 shot, then another thin card.

That gun seemed to like the combination. I got the idea to try that, from this site.

It used to shoot very weak, thin and holey to completely blown patterns if I used 12" fiber wads, normally. The 2 to 3 thin cards between powder and
shot did not disrupt the pattern.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 08:22:52 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V