Author Topic: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann  (Read 4145 times)

Offline blienemann

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2018, 01:05:27 AM »
Hi Taylor and northern neighbors, and thanks for the he, he, he.  But - Toronto is not far from upstate New York, northern PA and NJ?  How early was that Canada West term used? That rifle came out of Canada - why did you guys let it go, as it's a pretty rare piece?  Would be great to know if it was carried north by Native peoples, Loyalists or ??  Did many settle there right after the Rev War?

In the new book we talk about Caspar Wistar who came to the colonies very early, and then imported rifles from Germany for our local hunters.  Story is that he often had his rifles smuggled in chests, sometimes taken apart, but marked as for him.  Many feel this rifle might be ca 1770's after Albrecht moved to Lititz and adapted his profile a bit.  There might be connections between Wistar, Edward Marshall and his rifle, which may have been stocked by Albrecht at Bethlehem.  Wistar died around early 1750's, I think.  Here's a CW engraved on tang of buttplate (??) on a rifle made by Albrecht again.  Just curious how early the buttplate might be, and if it could have been used or reused 20 to 30 years later?

Either an open mind, or an empty one?  :) Thanks, Bob

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2018, 01:21:10 AM »
Bob, although I should know this stuff, I can't say when the area referred to as Canada West was renamed Ontario.  But British and French presence was very well established there for several hundreds of years prior to the Rev. War.  I'm also pretty sure we called it CW until well after the War of 1812.  I recognize that this is of absolutely no use in understanding this rifle any further.
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Offline WElliott

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2018, 05:15:48 AM »
 Bob and VP, I am looking forward to getting an autographed copy in Mars.   :) Congratulations on another  great book, Bob! And thanks  to the KRF for all the wonderful books over the years. Best regards,  Wayne
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Offline VP

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2018, 02:11:25 AM »
Wayne,

We will have the books and the author at the KRA for you to get a signed one. We are getting some good sales on the book and some excellent responses back. We have had several overseas order come in, even one from Norway! I don't think you will be disappointed in the book. I believe it will be a sell out like the first Moravian book.

VP

Offline Darrin McDonal

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2018, 02:47:08 AM »
Got mine yesterday as well. After a first brief thumb through it appears to be an outstanding book. I'd like to see the featured  guns come out on a KRA DVD as well.
I second that Mike!!!
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Offline BOB HILL

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2018, 04:14:18 AM »
Congratulations to the author and everyone else that contributed to this fine book. Bob, you have done a wonderful job. I love it.
Bob
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 01:12:45 AM by Tim Crosby »
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Offline blienemann

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2018, 08:16:03 PM »
KRF volunteers and I will have this book, the Foundation's other books, photo CD's and educational information at the Kentucky Rifle Assoc annual meeting near Pittsburg next weekend, and hope to see some alr.com family there.  It takes a family of collectors, historical societies, museums, archives and others to research and create a story like this, and a whole family of volunteers now takes these books and other items to many shows around the country, and they also take orders, pack and mail the books.  In this way KRF keeps costs down and puts all income back to work on future exhibits and projects.  Thanks all.

Here are several thumbnail photos from the book - we were able to include the Edward Marshall rifle in this second volume.  Attributed to Andreas Albrecht at Bethlehem - probably from the mid 1750's, John Bivins described this as a "complete stocking up" of a rifle using an imported lock and barrel 30 years ago.  More recent research lists work just like this rifle being done at Bethlehem - detailing the costs of cleaning and recutting a barrel, cleaning a lock, providing the other mounts and stocking at a cost of about 2 pounds.  Add another pound for a barrel and 10 - 20 shillings for a good quality lock and Marshall probably paid about 4 pounds for the rifle.






We'll probably argue the meaning of the stamped and engraved marks on the barrel. 

Jud Brennan has just recently completed a fantastic copy of the original, including handmade lock, triggers and mounts.  This is a great way to learn an important old rifle from a combination of photos, research and reproducing the piece.

Offline Jeff64

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2018, 05:02:36 AM »
Any chance Vol I will be reprinted?  I missed it first time around and it is now impossible to find. 

Offline TommyG

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2018, 02:02:45 AM »
Keep your eyes open - and about 100 bucks in your pocket - I found one at the Lewisburg show this past Feb. - $100 no questions asked.

Offline jdm

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2018, 02:23:53 AM »
I couldn't make the K.R.A. this year so I ordered one from the Kentucky Rifle Foundation. It  came last week . I was not disappointed . It's a very well done book. I like to read information as well as see the pictures. This book had both. Thank you Bob.
  Don't wait to get one!
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 02:25:00 AM by jdm »
JIM

Offline blienemann

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2018, 07:50:04 AM »
Thank you Mark for starting alr.org twenty plus years back with the forum and other resources, and to the moderators for keeping this site relevant.  I also came to this interest as a hobby gunstocker.  I grew up a farm kid hunting and shooting, then off to college, where I joined ROTC and was on the school’s rifle team.  Next move was to the Colorado mountains, where I lived fur trade history, and learned about rifles by J J Henry and T J Albright. 

Our little family could not afford a nice rifle for my mountain man persona, so I learned to stock a rifle.  David Rase showed me how to use tools, and I carefully studied any original arms I could find in museums and at gun shows.  I stocked a few more, and traded my work for more parts and gear.  Learning to stock a rifle made me a better student of the old guns, and vice versa. 

Wet Moccasin Basin in Wyoming, with gear for the fur trade

After years of learning on my own, Jack Brooks taught me to stock a correct longrifle from the blank, making all parts but the lock and barrel.  Soon he had me putting the right style of lock together, researching correct barrel and stock profiles, and casting mounts.  Jack has learned from the old guns, and is a tremendous teacher, as many of you know.

Bob and Jack with Davy’s rifles for the last Alamo movie

My interests worked back in time to Wm. Henry, Jr at Christian’s Spring, to Henry Albright and his father Andreas Albrecht who learned the gunstocking trade in the old country.  I attempted good copies of firearms by these and other makers.  The research and stocking seemed a good combination, each adding interest to the other.

Earlier gun books note the “short, clunky or heavy Jaeger rifle” – but actually these rifles handle well, and in Germany I saw early arms with the same art and details that appear later on our Kentuckies.  There was a story here, leading to thirty years of study and many discoveries worth sharing.  More than just a book of photos, Moravian Gunmaking II includes an introduction to gunmaking in Moravian communities, a discussion of the two shops and their furnishings, the materials and tools available, the men and boys involved over 40 years, a review of how arms were stocked and details from the annual inventories.
 

A rifle and pistol made in Germany come first, to show what Albrecht and Betz would have learned as apprentices and journeymen there.  Then a series of rifles, smooth rifles, fowlers and pistols made here.  Knowing who purchased these rifles and where they were carried adds to the story.  Two Oerter rifles from England and Germany may have been picked up after battle and taken back as war souvenirs.  They have seen little use with regular care and cleaning, allowing us to see how the rifles were stocked and finished in 1774 and 75.

Kenneth Orr photographed some of the arms and edited all the images, and we have noted interesting details in the rifles.  For example, the Oerter rifles that carry a brass patchbox are heavier in the butt than the wood box rifles – the buttstocks do not taper until forward of the cheek and patchbox.  The top line of the wrist is often a straight line, which carries over to later rifles by Neihardt and Rupp.  There are other details that may be of interest to students or contemporary builders.  We plan to be at the Kentucky Rifle Foundation’s table at the CLA Show both Friday and Saturday, and would enjoy visiting.  We’ll be happy to sign books, whether you pick up a copy there, or bring one you already have.

Completing this book has taken me away from the bench for several years, and I am anxious to get back.  Research, study of original arms and documents, sharing what we learn, and applying it at the bench all fit well together.  Smart Dog’s tutorial here re stocking a fine English fowler is another way to present this mix of interests.  Eric Kettenburg’s website is yet another – the equivalent of a fine book with considerable original research published online.  Please take time to share what you have learned – it can be a lot of work, but rewarding.  Bob


Offline WElliott

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2018, 01:45:01 PM »
I have thoroughly enjoyed Moravian Gunmaking Ii. Not only are the Moravian rifles foundational to any study of the American Longrifle, Bob’s scholarship and eye for detail raise the bar for future longrifle books. And my friend Kenneth Orr’s photography is always excellent. If you don’t yet have your cooy, you should act right away or be disappointed when it sells out just as the first Moravian book did.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 01:46:21 PM by WElliott »
Wayne Elliott

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2018, 03:41:19 PM »
Bob, I'll be bringing an old gun to the CLA you'll be interested in seeing. It relates to the gun on pages 187 to 192 of your book.
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Offline blienemann

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2018, 07:35:55 PM »
Mike - look forward to seeing you and the old gun!

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2018, 12:37:42 AM »
Bob, I'll be bringing an old gun to the CLA you'll be interested in seeing. It relates to the gun on pages 187 to 192 of your book.

Do I need to send you a camera dude?  Sheesh, what a tease!   :P
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2018, 06:21:32 PM »
Bob, I'll be bringing an old gun to the CLA you'll be interested in seeing. It relates to the gun on pages 187 to 192 of your book.

Do I need to send you a camera dude?  Sheesh, what a tease!   :P
OK Mr. instant gratification man. ;)




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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2018, 06:23:29 PM »





NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2018, 06:24:51 PM »




NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2018, 06:36:11 PM »


 As you can see this gun is almost identical  to the gun in the Moravian book except for the left side of the buttsctock. I have seen 5 or 6 of these, this one has the fanciest barrel of the ones I have seen. The lock is old, but doesn't go with the stock. the forestock from the rear pipe forward is a restoration. I believe these gun are from Liege or possibly Dutch from Utrecht which was a big gunmaking center as well. I'm thinking ca. 1730's.  These guns are deceptive, they look real high end at first glance but they aren't, the inletting and stock  shaping are somewhat course. I believe they were trade level guns , most being sold in the extreme NE. I have never seen any of these parts show up in archeological native American sites, must been just a white folks trade item.

 These guns are mentioned in the "Flintlock Fowlers" book on page 29 and also the Beckwith folwer on pages 38 and 39 is a restock of one of these Belgian/Dutch fowling guns.

 I'll get ya's some measurements later today.
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2018, 08:08:36 PM »
Hi Mike,
At risk of asking a naive question, is it possible that at least some of those parts and the barrel are French?  As I understand it, a long flat sighting plane on top of the barrel extending from the breech to the front sight is a common feature on French barrels during the early 18th century.  The Hawkes NE fowler that I posted in this section has a similar barrel feature.

dave
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2018, 10:48:35 PM »
You'd think French right away but with some study you'd find these are all made to a very specific pattern. They have some very unique features, at least the 1/2 dozen that I have seen.
 The barrels all have a degree of "fanciness", some more than others, most having a bit of gold leaf in the design, and a top flat running to the front sight. Mine  has the best barrel I have seen on these.
 The furniture is a variation on a specific theme. The trigger guards in all profiles are nearly identical, only the cast decoration on the bow changes much. The crudeness of form of the trigger guards are universal, notice how the bow connects to the finials, identical on all guns I have seen.
 The same could be said of the buttplates, They appear to have been cast flat then formed to the buttstock with some peening in the heel area. They all have a similar upper finial outline and raised relief decoration which may have been cast in as was the decoration on the bow of the triggerguard. I am assuming this cast in decoration was probably cleaned up with burnishers.
 The thumbpieces are all identical.
 The rear ramrod pipes are all constructed exactly the same way. Looks like they were made to have a square return that was turned on it's edge and hammered down to make the pointed finial. I have made several rear pipes using the method I just described with exactly the same results.
 Sideplates are all designed with the same theme as well. The "shield" area was just bumped out from the back side, They were cast flat, then bumped out.
 ALL of the guns I have seen have square toes. All of them are carved to one degree or another, but they all have the same theme in decoration. The lock panels are all crudely designed. The inlets for the buttplates and triggerguards are all as crudely done as the one I illustrated. I believe my gun has had some modification to the top of the comb long ago.
 The one in Bob's book is the only one that I have seen with a cheek piece and it has better inletting of the furniture. The barrel is the most undecorated of all the guns I have seen. But the gun is  otherwise is "of the same pattern".
 I have what's left of an 1730's-40's French trade gun that has been restocked. The mounts are of a wholly different design and much better quality.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2018, 10:58:35 PM »
Here's a gun I formed the rear pipe the same way these Dutch gun rear pipes were formed. it's actually pretty clever as done this way that little spikey end stays put and doesn't want to stick out after you inlet it.
http://www.fowlingguns.com/rifle12.html
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2018, 11:24:57 PM »
Dimensions of my old Dutch gun:
Barrel length 45 1/8". Breech 1.22". Muzzle .800" Bore .650" Tang 2.60".

Trigger pull 12.5".

Wrist 1.745" high by 1.580" wide

Triggerguard 10" long. Bow .745 wide

Sideplate 5 5/8" long

Buttplate 2 1/8" X 4 3/4" butplate finial 5 3/8" long


Maybe the moderators might want to break this out since it sort of invades Bob's thread.
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Offline blienemann

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Re: Moravian Gunmaking II - New KRF book by Robert Lienemann
« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2018, 05:09:48 AM »
Thanks for a great post, Mike!  Looking forward to a fine discussion at CLA - should be there all day Friday and Saturday til close. 

Your details, comments and measurements are key for comparison, and maybe we can find that info for some of the other examples you mention.  Then a followup article or series of posts.

Thanks for all comments - we hope others will offer their thoughts on this interesting long gun and others in the book, or related pieces they have seen or handled.  As we are learning, these stockers really moved around Europe, and were exposed to many different styles and details before landing in PA.  Constantly changing Princes and their State sanctioned religions caused major shifts in populations, so what might look French could easily be anywhere - and what was France one day was something else the next. 

It appears that Albrecht and others did much more repair and restocking than stocking up complete new arms - especially in the earlier decades when keeping the tools of their Native Brethren and visitors in working form.  Looking at the work they did around the treaties in mid 1750's shows an amazing variety in arms brought to the shop.

If the discussion moves further with details and construction of this piece, it might better serve your study and contemporary work as a separate post.  But as I was trying to say above, study, sharing what we learn and trying to recreate the old guns all go well together.  Bob