Long term effects of CNCed kits?

[heinz]

I have been building flintlock rifles since 1973 on a casual hobby basis. I have used lots of pre-carves, few of which were more than satisfactory. I have never done a Chambers kit but would expect it to have the same quality as a Kibler, without the CNC inletting.

I think the effect of the Kibler kit is to raise the bar in kits.  I do not think that impacts custom rifles. Realistically making muzzleloader is a tough way to make a living.  Ten bucks an hour is tough to get.

The Kibler kits will get a lot of junk off the street. I learned years ago to either buy a Bob Roller lock or plan on rebuilding one or using a Siler kit.  I will say the Chambers Colonial is pretty good out of the box.  But there are locks and triggers and patch boxes out there that are just sad.  There are also a lot of six hundred to one thousand dollar flintlock guns out there that are just sad. 

So Kibler raises the bar to bring better guns to more people.  I think that is a good thing. If you are interested in a pre rev war styled iron mounted rifle you are still on your own and will need to learn to build or how to afford a good builder. 

I build guns to shoot. I am after performance.  But I like style and I like quality.  And I like seeing things that may bring more shooters into the sport.

[Jim Kibler]

Wow!  I guess we must be doing someting right with this sort of reaction   I don't really even know where to start.  There have been a lot of excellent points raised for sure.  I agree with many and take issue with a few.

First, we don't wish any ill will on any other businesses.  All we're trying to do is make the best possible products we can and run the best business we can.  We simply want to suceed.  We'll not apalogize for that. 

Although our kits rely on CNC equipnment, there is a whole lot more than this to create a quality product.  I suspect few realize the extent of this.  The sucess we've had is a result of our our abilities, ambition and hard work.  We've put more time and energy into this business than most would believe.

I'm going to be blunt.  The quality of most muzzleloading components has been abysmal in my view.  Granted this comes from someone with a high end custom gunmaking background.  Many of these parts, kits etc. are made by those who don't have the ability to make a high quality historically correct rifle themselves.  How can this work?  I think we've seen how it works...

How often have beginners been basically sold a pile of junk and are then expected to make something quality out of it.  Quality issues that an experienced builder has difficulty dealing with.  This has been the norm in this industry.  How do you think this encourges those getting started?

We wanted to do things differently.  We're proud that we've developed ways to make the finest kits available.  The finest from design, historical correctness to construction and completeness.     

The future?  I can only speak to our goals.  We will keep adding to our offerings while continually improving quality of our current products.  They are very good, but can be better.  All this, while improving the many other aspects of our business. 

Progress is inevitable.  Nostalgia creeps in at times but in the big picture it never wins.

All the best,
Jim

[Jim Kibler]

A few other points...  There is no problem carving our Colonial rifles.  Little extra wood is required / desired when carving a longrifle.   Here are a few:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=49073.0

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=49870.0

No soul in these rifles??

[smoothy]

Muzzleloader building will continue to evolve. But there will still be craftsmen making excellent pieces that a hobbyist will never be able to meet in quality even with a quality set of parts.

There is so much information out there that 30 years ago was mostly unavailable to most of us. You had to order a catalog and buy parts from photographs. Companies like Track of the Wolf had full size photographs of parts and there was much rejoicing. Of course there were some that made every part from raw materials, not a whole lot. But being able to buy parts as castings or mostly/all complete wasn't always available to smithies of the day.

Not all originals I have viewed are "perfect". There have been visible flaws. A CNCed muzzleloader, if it evolves to a higher level, will look too perfect. Maybe that is what future customers will want. There is still some warmth and soul in a hand-built muzzleloader that a machine will have a hard time to mimic as long as there are those that can appreciate the care and time spent in a traditional build. A benefit that a CNCed muzzleloader will likely have is that it may be an "entry level" arm that will get younger people in the sport at a cost he/she can afford. If their interest in the sport evolves they will likely put out the dough to purchase an absolute one-of-a-kind by a builder. Time will tell.

The sport hinges more on future generations that work less and less with their hands. Maybe a CNCed muzzleloader will actually keep the overall sport alive for them.

I am approaching 60, but I feel that I am a youngster in the sport when I go to gun shows, shoots, etc. Out of 5 sons, my fourth son seems to be the only one truly interested in muzzleloaders. I am presently building him a short heavy barreled Indian trade rifle of the 1850's in percussion. He wants tacks and feathers and all, so I will humor him. He is 12 (yes, 12 and not 22 or 32) and he will have to wait over a year for it, I am slow and don't have a lot of free time.

I am rambling and I don't know if I made the points I was trying to make. But I will have to say that people have done well with the Kibler kits and have made their builds unique and attractive. Like everything else, supply and demand will rule. There will continue to be a need for all kinds of builds, but I can't predict the ratio.

[oldtravler61]

    Jim you shortened my comments greatly. First I have never bought one of your kits. Have helped a friend put his together. Excellent kit period.
  What it gave my friend is a great gun. The right architecture that both of us learned from.
 For a thousand bucks he has a historically correct gun he is very proud of. Also one heck of an accurate gun.
  Keep up the good work. We wish you the best. 
See yeah at the CLA show.... Oldtravler

[Jim Kibler]

Hand made fully custom guns with quality are wonderful, but there are few with the ability to make these.  Maybe I should be a little more clear...  What these kits provide is the start of a longrifle with all the quality of a high end custom gun, both in design and construction.  All this for just little more than the price of components. 

The uniqueness and less than perfect nature of hand made products are great, but the vast majority of builds I see have serious issues.  To be blunt, many that are critical of the precision could learn a great deal from these if they were open to it.

Most of the highly respected builders are doing pretty careful and precise work.  Decoration, finish, patina etc do a lot to bring life to a project. Go to Jud  Brennan’s blog and look at the quality of in process work.

[sespe]

Well I, for one, don't think the sky is falling.  It's not the end of the world.  My father built many muzzleloaders.  He collected others, a Buchele, a Dangler, a Cain, etc.  He tried his hardest to interest any of his seven sons in his craft, but we all wanted whiz-bang "modern" guns.  Fast-forward 20 years after he was gone, and my spark was renewed.  I wanted to build a rifle of my own, as the ones I inherited were approaching wall status.  I was pretty much set on a Chambers kit, but was afraid to start.  That first mountain looked too tall to climb.
 
Then a local gunmaker of some renown showed me a Kibler mountain rifle he had made.  It was beautiful, but not what I was looking for.  He raved about the ease of assembly, and how it left him more time to do his customization.  And then Jim announced he was working on a kit for exactly what I wanted!  I waited and waited, and finally got my kit.

Like somebody posted above, I'm not retired yet.  Spare time is hard to come by.  The fact that, as a first-time builder, I could get a kit where everything would fit was the final selling point.  The mountain turned into a hill.  Then I found you guys, and the hill got even smaller.

This kit will not kill anybody's business from me.  I'm already dreaming of my next build.  It won't be a Kibler kit, (unless my boy wants one) but most probably a Chambers kit..  After one or two more, and (hopefully) retirement, then maybe I'll start with a plank of wood like my Dad did. 

...And I won't have any problem picking my rifle out of the rack.  I'll just look for the ugly one!

[redheart]

It's just like everything else in this modern world.
Good and Bad all in the same package.

[Jim Jackson]

I believe that Jim"s kits fill a market and just raises the bar on first build kits. The quality of the components are excellent to begin with,no need to rework a lock or triggers to get them to go bang.My only question is when will you offer Left Hand ones? I guess you have to ask yourself would you rather see a newbie get one of Jim"s guns or one of the ones we can not mention on here? I know what I would like to see them with.

[ClaudeH]

Progress and innovation are inevitable.  They inevitably raise the bar for competitors but the innovators blaze the trail for the competitors who want to follow.

There are too many styles, variations, examples for Jim to cover all the bases.  This should leave a continued market for the custom builders.

Perhaps the ease of his kits makes a kit build more competitive with the Italian guns?  If a new shooter can assemble a high quality kit with few tools and a short time frame, and if that means he is not entering the sport with a rifle with a %)*&@-%%#!!&) ante-chamber breech, we might see interest in the sport grow and the market for quality guns expand!

[The Stumbler]

I know no one that is involved with muzzleloading , I have never shot a muzzle loader, at 60 years of age I bought one of Jim Kiblers kits.
 
It was fantastic . To someone with no experience it is still a daunting task looking at a box of parts. It took me most of last winter to put the gun together and I loved every minuet of it.

Jim's innovation will only bring more people into the world of muzzleloading.

[flehto]

As the OP of the post which  started  this discussion and feeling this post was pertinent to gunbuilding in particular and MLing in a more general way, the general sentiment towards Jim's introduction of 2 models of LRs was very favorable. Entrepreneurs are always welcome in our capitalistic economy and Jim is certainly that.  His approach  of offering authentically styled LR kits  w/ a CNCed precision stock,  the best components, easy assembly and now the "how to" videos should guarantee  success of his efforts, but his products' impact on many builders , both full time and hobbyists and the MLing supply houses that for years have served us well, is to be determined w/ time.  Hopefully the impact will be positive.

I'm mainly a builder and not an owner of many  MLers....I appreciate  just building mainly flintlock LRs and from  the start of building in 1976 I amassed a couple of racks full of my builds of which I thought I couldn't even sell one because of the sweat and tears that went into the earlier builds. Well they were all sold except for my 3  hunting rifles and since 1977 have sold every build....not expressly to make money but to start on the next one.....nearly all were from a blank.

Really don't know how Jim's kits will fit in and only time will tell and hopefully his new process of producing kits will have a positive effect on gun building and MLing......Fred

[Jeff Stewart]

Interesting comments.  Personally I think that Jim’s new kits will have a positive long term effect on the hobby, but only time will tell.

I think Jim’s kits will spur interest in newcomers and make it easier for them to enter the sport.  As someone who just completed my first build, I know what it feels like to take $1,000 dollars in parts and turn it into a $250 gun.  I have never met a maker yet who didn’t think their first build was garbage.  Lots of learning in that build, but the end result can be discouraging.  High end kits like Kibler’s and Chamber’s can make it a little less intimidating to entry level builders.  And at the very least, we get to learn proper architecture with historically correct components.  Starting with these kits is still better (IMHO) than buying one of the muzzleloaders offered at Cabelas.

With the recent passing of several icons of the custom muzzleloading world, I can’t help but think that anything which can get more people interested in the hobby is a good thing.  It reminds me of General Shinseki’s quote, “If you dislike change, you're going to dislike irrelevance even more.”

Great dialogue and I appreciate everyone’s perspective.  Would be interesting to revisit this topic ten years from now.  I hope folks like Jim continue to push the boundaries and inspire us newbies to develop the skills exhibited by this forums members.

[Bob Roller]

The Kibler kits are a top of the line item obviously offered by people who
care about themselves and even MORE important,the customer who buys
them.There are NO junk parts in these kits and a finished ones with a few
knicks and dings from use only enhance them.I was going to buy one but
a diversion in another direction stopped me.
We hope to be at the CLA Show on Friday unless something else pops up.

Bob Roller

[Lucky R A]

      I am speaking from the prospective of a full time builder having built nearly 350 guns.  About 1/4 of my customers will call or come to the shop and say "I want one of those Kentucky longrifles!"  They know noting about schools, styles some don't even know the difference between a flintlock and a percussion.  I usually have to spend 2-3 hrs. educating and exploring options with them to come up with what they want...They also have no idea of what is available and are likely uninterested in building their own gun.  Another 1/4 come in with very defined ideas of exactly what they want, be it a regional style or a particular original maker, they want it to look as authentic as possible and the details as historically correct as possible.  They are coming to the "expert" to get the level of gun they want.  About another 1/4 or more are hunters, and want a certain calibers for any where from squirrel to Elk, they want quality.  A lot of these guys are dedicated hunters who want to spend their time in the field and not in the shop working on a gun that may or may not turn out well.   The rest of the clients generally get their first gun and may then develop an interest in building.  They may gravitate to one of Jim's or other's  fine kits, or they may plunge into a full fledged stick build.  I can only see good things, and do not feel threatened one little bit by Jim's product.  Before Jim's product we have had Chamber's and several other good kits out there, and there has never been a lack of work...

[bob in the woods]

Chambers, Dunlop , Cabincreek and RE Davis offer some quality "kits"  It's nice to have the variety of styles etc.  You can slim down some of these a fair bit , but the greatest advantage for someone like myself, is that they start you off with a the basic design/profile etc so you've got a real shove in the direction of what the gun is supposed to look like. Some of the other so  called kits are just generic / looks sort of like a "Lancaster " or whatever. Jim's kits just bring the bar to a much higher level, and for many, his kit might be the only one or two guns they build.  I hope to get one myself just to take in the nuances of what it's " supposed to look like "   Studying originals isn't that easy up here, since we don't have many

[rich pierce]

As a Jim Kibler addressed above, there’s more to his kits than a gun that assembles easily and performs well.  We can get that with a Lyman Trade Gun kit (I suppose; don’t have any experience).  The design and architecture are the big difference here, and are what makes these a winner.  That will undoubtedly help aspiring builders and customers grow in their knowledge and appreciation of what a choice Southern Mountain Rifle or colonial long rifle is.

I expect the biggest financial impact will eventually be on outfits that offer semi-custom, generic longrifles at very (till now) competitive prices.  But nobody is preventing anyone else from stepping up their game, and I know when some new CNC locks hit the market, these will be game changers too.

No one outfit can offer everything everybody could want, nor custom stock dimensions, nor style individual builders bring to the table. It’s always been the case that some few customers have a specific desire for something truly custom, and that market will likely persist, and in my view, grow, as folks have access to more affordable, excellent offerings like Kibler’s kits.

[Mike Brooks]

Take a look at the responders in this thread. The greater percentage of them have a very low post count and don't have much experience in building. They are quite excited about Kibler's offerings, as they should be. So, the immediate impact is obvious, the new guys with little to no experience are ending up with a very nice gun  for 1K , hopefully they don't botch the finish!

 This could be real hard on the fellas that are offering finished guns for $800 with poor wood, hinkey architecture, low end small parts and tubing barrels.

[Scota4570]

I thought about this some more and had this:

Economics is not a zero sum game.  Many people will buy Kibler that would not have bought any kit at all.  Some of those people will go on to buy from other established kit makers and parts vendors.   The availability of easy high quality kits like Kibler spur interest and will bring new blood to the hobby.  The rising tide will lift all boats. 

[n stephenson]

I have probably been as negative as anyone about these kits , and have held back from posting , so I could listen to others first. As many have stated , there is no way to predict the future of this sport or  any other, for that matter. I don`t think that these kits will have any effect on the top end builders at all. The top end builders are a small percentage of the overall builders. Believe it or not MOST ML rifle builders aren't building $50,000 guns . MOST are probably under $5000 and, when the hours are figured out , you better LOVE building rifles , because you sure aint getting rich doing it. I have quite a few gunbuilders that I talk to on a regular basis. These kits have already effected their income . They might smile and shake hands at the CLA but, behind the scenes , they aren't thrilled! There are only so many people , that are going to buy a ML rifle period. When they buy one of these , they don`t buy one somewhere else period. All this aside, I DO support Jim in this endeavor . Not because I want to see the market flooded with these. Not because , I want to see the average builders go out of business. Not because I feel that many people will never go further with building . I support his effort because I believe that hard work SHOULD be rewarded , and I know , he has put a ton of work into this. I also believe that the heart and soul of this country is small business. It takes courage to take the plunge , and stick  your neck out there. After much thought on this , I wish Jim success in his endeavor no matter how it may effect the sport , because I care more about the principles that make this country work , than just my own place in it. No matter what you do , there are always going to be winners and losers. Just part of life.

[bgf]

..
 This could be real hard on the fellas that are offering finished guns for $800 with poor wood, hinkey architecture, low end small parts and tubing barrels.

But Jim doesn't offer the huge variety of historically accurate models many of those builders do .  I've got an iron mounted Early Indiana with Jaeger barrel and brass banana patchbox on the way!  And real thimbles, not home made.  Full disclosure: this is tongue in cheek.

Seriously, if I'd had one of Jim's kits to start instead of a Traditions Kentucky, I would have been far ahead in terms of knowing good architecture and a particular style, but maybe a little behind in making my own stuff.  I'm pretty sure I would have wanted to do something different, no matter how well it came out, but I might have been satisfied longer...

Jim is trying to do good and taking a huge risk in the process.  I don't see his efforts hurting anyone who honestly has the same level of passion for originals and dedication to the customer. 

[Eric Krewson]

Hopefully Jim's kit will make some of the lesser kit suppliers step up their game. I have done two plank builds, one precarve without the lock mortise cut, picked up a complete Isaac Haines kit with the lock inlet done and have put together one of Jim's squirrel rifles.

One precarve was cut so far off center I spent more time straightening things out than if I had built from a plank. The Isaac Hanes in its present form is impossible to complete because of the precarve errors, I bought it second hand so I am stuck with it.

Bad precarves are the name of the game for most. Perhaps the guys who crank these things out will pay more attention to detail when people start abandoning their shoddy work.

Jim's kit was a breath of fresh air after two poorly done precarves in a row.

[Ron Wehmeyer]

Any company /supplier/ product  or person that brings more and new people into the sport of muzzleloaders will have a positive effect on the sport and ensure that it continues . I think that is what we all want or should want from the most experienced builder to the most inexperienced  like ( Yours Truly ) Just my opinion  RW.

[Mauser06]

I agree...some of the precarve/in the white suppliers need to step it up or they'll be hurting. Just word of mouth recommendations...I'd never tell someone to look at those that are charging nearly the same as Jim Kibler but supplying less of a product.


I'm a brand new stocker.  I've seen plenty of posts of precarves and in the whites that I'm afraid to spend money on them anymore. I got lucky with my first 2 and they we're nicely done and didn't cause me any issues or additional work. 

Had Jim been in business a few years ago, I'd almost certainly started with his kits.

I am a good example of what can happen though...I fell in love with stocking.  I am wrapping up my 2nd precarve and already have 3 planks in the closet.  I don't ever plan on doing it as a business. But I love the build and I'm a hunter.  I find a sick satsifaction with killing critters with parts I turned into a functional gun with my own 2 hands. My stuff may never look like well skilled builders. But I don't see myself ever not having a piece of maple in my vice. Even as life goes on..even if I'm busy and only have a small amount of time here n there..i enjoy it.  Today was a good example. Walked by the bench and saw a spot that needed a little more scraping. Couple of minutes and it was cleaned up.



I hope the barrel and lock market can keep up with Kibler!  I haven't seen a problem yet...but I see it as a potential problem.  Chamber's locks and Rice barrels are highly liked and for good reason.

[deepcreekdale]

I consider myself an experienced builder, having built well over a hundred rifles and fowlers from blanks and since I have nice but manageable backlog, I think my customers are probably well satisfied. That being said, a year ago or so, I ordered one of Jims kits to see what the buzz was about. I received an excellent, well made product that didn't take me more than a weekend to finish, even with a little customization. I thoroughly enjoyed it, it sold readily but I probably won't want to do another. Not because Jims products are not top shelf, because they are. It is just that I get more satisfaction out of creating my own product with my own style. I think most of the experienced builders here feel the same way and there will always be a market for good work. I don't think Jim will have any negative impact on anyone except "jackleg" builders that have no idea how to build a proper rifle and will only increase the awareness of  the market for quality guns. That is a good thing all around. Jim is to be congratulated on his success and willingness to take a bold step to bring such excellent products to market.