Long term effects of CNCed kits?

[flehto]

To begin.....I have no personal animosity towards Jim Kibler who is a gun builder w/ a lot of artistic talent and also an astute businessman. But, the topic begs to be answered seeing many other businesses and builders will be affected.  MLing in  all its forms is of  limited interest to most of the US population so the businesses involved are small, the full time builders are few in number and the part time and hobby builders are also few in number. All can be  affected by Jim Kibler's kits.

Kibler kits are  of the finest quality components and the CNCed stocks require very little work to complete and his videos make it even easier to assemble a  MLer. These kits enable a person w/ minimum or no  skills to produce a first rate MLer.

Because the market for his kits will be limited, periodic introductions of new styles will be necessary for his business to succeed  and as the new styles are bought, the individual, hobby builders will have to avoid these styles ...because the market will be saturated w/ these completed styles. Have noticed some SMRs already on the market.

Many MLing supply  dealers could experience a down turn  ....who would want to buy a profiled precarve w/ it's lower quality and much more work req'd  rather than a CNCed stock?

Jim Kibler is a fine business man who has come up w/ a unique process of supplying quality parts for a quality MLer, but  how will his business affect MLing specifically?

Hopefully, this post will be allowed  and also the ensuing discussion . As I said before,  MLing in general is fragile and could either be affected positively or negatively by this new addition......Fred

 

[tiswell]

I tend to be a positive person, and I think the impact of Jim's kits would be generally positive. For me it was a means to see as well as touch and feel what proper architecture was. I don't have the means to buy an antique piece so this was a way to experience something close to that affordably on my learning path.

This is just me but if the builders and dealers experience a downturn it is probably going to be because those the upcoming generation has no interest in flintlock guns. Looking out over the masses at an antique gun show there are a couple of youngsters (under50), predominately what I see when I attend one is a sea of gray.

[JTR]

Look at it as a modern day TC, but with much more appropriate components.
With its LEGO like snap together ability, a guy could get one in the morning, snap it together, slap on some quick drying finish, and shoot it in the afternoon!

Whether good or bad for the sport remains to be seen. The TC's gave BP a big boost back then, and maybe Jims kits will give another well needed boost. I know I went from a TC to a Sharon kit, to building my own back then.

Time will tell,
John

[T*O*F]

I was dismayed at the advice given in a recent thread where the gentleman bought an "in the white" rifle where everyone was quick to point out the flaws.  I was ready to offer to build the gun for him gratis.  Contrary to comments, there wasn't much more than a good weekend's work to fix them.  To late however, as they convinced him to return the gun and buy a Kibler kit, being constricted to only 2 choices.

A person has to learn to manage their expectations without the advice of do-gooders who are always guick to offer their negative opinions.  That expectation included realizing that if you are going to buy the cheapest kit available, additional work would be required.

Before that thread, the advice would have been to buy a Chamber's kit, but you seldom see that advice anymore.  You will also notice that those who bought Kibler kits rapidly completed them and put them up for sale.  Now the market is almost saturated with Southern Mtn rifles.

People are trendy, always thinking they have to have the latest and greatest thing.  Back in the 80's and 90's, it was Mark Baker and John Curry.  Everyone rushed to emulate them and become one of Curry's Clones or one of the Baker Boys.  Everywhere you looked, you would see a mob of Walnut Rangers with little individuality.  There's a flock of sheep.....let's go become part of it.  Well, trends come and go and there is always someone else to line up behind.

I guess ordinary men always feel the need to belong to something.  Where are those who think outside the box and go their own way without being part of the pack?

[WadePatton]

I think that it's great that many more authentic reproductions are out there now.

That also there is enough "good economy" going on that folks can buy nearly complete working guns, with plenty of room for artistic enhancement (as desired and hopefully period appropriate).

Folks appear to be spending MUCH more on their various pursuits and we are only one of the very tiny Niche Pursuits, unlike say-Fishing, where no one bats an eye at 10k (or more) worth of boat and gear and the fuel to operated it all for 'sport' and diversion.

Most of the hobbies we 'compete with' in terms of market share are HIGHLY commercialized and that works for most folks, especially those who get "paid to play".   But this sort of niche-promotion/awareness is not one that I personally care for. Nor do I think it is any answer to our market share. 

I believe that there are many more folks in our ranks who'd rather have something different, or more By Their Hand, than another cookie-cutter copy.  Also I think Jim has done a wonderful job and wish him the best in continued success and customer satisfaction. I'd rather see more CNC guns of proper design than more of the better-known generic kinda-sortas.

Maybe that as some folks sell off their kinda-sortas to get themselves into a Kibler (assuming limitations in their own personal economies), that more education and awareness happens and that sparks more interest in the whole caboodle.

That for an "economy-proof" profession, one shouldn't be dabbling in marginal niche products, but rather on something related to work and transportation or food-those necessities that must happen regardless.  There's always a cycle. Ride the wave and save for the dips.

[WadePatton]

I was dismayed ...

People are trendy...

(yes thanks for that perspective on the thread you mention)


One of my peeves, trends for trendy sake. But you are right when speaking of the normals.

all my trends follow my interests and developing my abilities. If it coincides with a trend, 'tis fully accidental. I'm weird like that.   

But I am not "the market".

[Mauser06]

I was just thinking about this subject as I watched Jim's videos and saw how precise they really are. What he's done is pretty incredible considering cast brass and wood are the mediums. It's very impressive. 


I can see it going several directions. 


The best outcome IMO is guys wet their feet with Jim's kits and then dive in deeper.  Similar to how many of us probably started with a TC kit or similar. I personally refinished a TC and used that as a guide to build another from a precarve.  Now, although it's tempting to buy a Kibler kit, I know I would be bored with it and have it finished quickly.


I hope Jim's business prospers.  But I also hope all muzzleloading builders and supply companies continue to do well.  We are a very small community and certainly a niche market.

[mony]

I guess ordinary men always feel the need to belong to something.  Where are those who think outside the box and go their own way without being part of the pack?

Jim Kibler is obviously one of those men who “think outside the box,” as tired as that phrase is, and probably you do, too.

[Jeff Durnell]

"...who would want to buy a profiled precarve w/ it's lower quality and much more work req'd  rather than a CNCed stock?"

Me. Well, sort of. If I was going to buy a precarve, I'd want one of the best, like Jim's. But I'm not always going to want to build precarves.

I ordered a Chambers precarve kit for my first one to get my feet wet, cuz I literally have NO idea what I'm doing, or what I'm even looking at, and while I haven't even gotten it yet, I'm studying and already planning and accumulating the parts for my next one, a build from a plank. I wanna locate and inlet the barrel, lock, triggers, drill the ramrod hole, as much as is even remotely possible for me. As I build skills, I'll want to do more, dig deeper. I'm a do-it-your-selfer, a do-it-from-scratcher. Kinda why I'd rather cut down my own trees to make selfbows than buy a laminated bow blank already glued up. I do make laminated bows, but I cut and season the wood, grind my own lams, etc. Perhaps there are fewer folks like me around than those who'd stay the precarve path, I don't know. I'm just putting out there my own motivations and direction.

I figure if it's worth doing, it's worth the effort, and jumping in with both feet. For me it's not about having a good gun in short order with no mistakes or little effort. It's more about learning, building skills, and the challenges and rewards. Precarves and cnc's can be part of that, at least initially, for new guys like me. But making mistakes, and/or working to avoid them, are often where the best lessons are learned, and if someone else does too much for me, I miss out on too much, on too many of the reasons I'm doin it in the first place, so we'll see how it goes, but I may never build another precarve. I don't know squat, but can already see benefits to NOT using them.

I apologize if I went a different direction than you were headed with your questions 

[Joe S.]

My two cents.....theres always going to be folks who will want to build there own rifles.Some from a blank,some from a precarve.Some will go with Jim's kits,taking a forst step,lack of tools,training,time or not mechanically inclined.I don't see any problem with this what so ever.Theres also folks who will want a custom rifle built.Seems to me all these paths at least lead to the same place,interest in the sport,a good thing I think.

[Scota4570]

I believe it will spur interest in the building hobby.  Shooting as a sport is under attack.  Out here in California the attacks are aggressive from all angles.    Few people have any shop skills at all.  We need to encourage new people if there is any hope of it continuing.  Otherwise is will end with us. 

The animosity toward quality kits puzzles me.  They are akin to paint by numbers paintings.  Somebody with few skills can produce a decent painting.  Why that bothers a real artist, I don't get.  They are not the same thing. 

Kibler and Chambers  produce products that are too good?  Where to draw the line?  Should we shun every one who chooses not build using only 1790 tools and techniques?  It is not 1790.  It is 2018.  I see nothing wrong with using modern techniques.  I also admire those who choose to use old methods.   

Traditional parts sets?  There is a lot of unusable junk out there, precarve stocks particularly.   They are not for beginners.  Hands on skills are no longer taught in school out here.  There are no shop classes as we knew them.  Most fathers prefer to spend free time watching  sports, and they don't have a workshop.    I assume it is the same all over. Most kids prefer computer games to building anything.   It is not realistic  to expect the vast majority of newbies to assemble a traditional parts set or scratchbuild.  Whatever we can do to encourage them is good.

[Mike Lyons]

The tutorials on fixing gaps are going to be uninteresting. 

[G_T]

I'm one of those who is not retired yet and am not full-time in this business. My work tends to be excessive at times and my hobby time, limited. I have picked up a Colonial from Jim made from wood I selected out at Dunlap's. I appreciate that the kit will go together very easily, though I expected when I preordered to have to fix inletting etc, and perhaps make a few mods here and there. I didn't expect it to be anywhere as nearly bolt-together as I'm seeing in the videos. I wanted it as a platform for carving and engraving. With my work schedule, it would take me quite a while to get to that point in the process without a lot of the work fairly pre-done. I've been the route of a pre-carve that wasn't close to fitting the barrel (I didn't use the intended barrel), where I used a different lock than intended, slimmed it up some, etc etc and I spent quite a bit of time on it. In the end I found the barrel had real problems so I'm now building a freshing bench just so I can get the thing to shoot right - before I finish the carving work!

A few decades back there was this thing called spare time, and one expected to have it. Now days, work is longer hours per day. Commute is worse, what is a vacation???, etc. Many are in this boat. Something like Jim's fine kits are a way for those of us who like to build rather than buy, to actually do some of the building and have the time to actually get it done. For someone who likes to build, is it as "good" as doing it all yourself? Probably not. But, better than buying it done by someone else!

If a person isn't a maker, a person isn't a maker. Having a kit won't make a difference. If a person is a maker, but lacks time, then having a good kit is an option. If a person is contemplating being a maker, then Jim's kits are an excellent intro to some parts of the work, and show how it should be when the work is well done. I've seen pre-carves which were garbage. Someone learning on some of those would get discouraged and exit, stage left. I don't know how some people would sell them. I wouldn't put my name on one.

You know one might be able to take an SMR kit, replace the steel with brass, do a little altering and re-inletting here and there, a bit of molding, a bit of carving, add an appropriate patchbox, do a bit of engraving, and turn out some form of golden age rifle?

One doesn't have to build the kits as designed. These kits are well made. Additional artistry is up to the builder!

I think there should be room in the business side of making rifles for someone(s) to take a good barrel, some wood (sent in by the person getting it done rather than having it provided by the precarver), and produce a pre-carve where the barrel fits well, the stock is correctly profiled for a particular school or maker but perhaps slightly oversize in the buttstock region to allow for variation, the ramrod channel is drilled, and none of the rest of the inletting is done. No parts beyond barrel are supplied by the precarver. Perhaps the customer could specify drop and cast-off and cant. Perhaps have it based off a published rifle or a known maker or school. That would be a nice intermediate for someone like me, who likes to build but doesn't have enough time to do it all but would like to make the decisions. I also don't like to fix mistakes that are built in before it even gets to me! Doing it this way would minimize the mistake factor. It would also be a nice intermediate for the producer of such a "kit", as it is less work and requires less materials investment than what Jim is doing.

BTW, I have the Colonial. Fantastic work! I have two others to finish before I get to it.

I applaud Jim doing what he is doing. Given the business he is garnering, clearly there was a need for something better than a lot of the precarves out there. Personally I think there is also room for something better/different than essentially all the traditional precarves out there. Call it part-carved.

Gerald

[Cuboodle]

How far do you want this thread to go?  Let me ask you if you acquire your parts for your builds by horse or boat as a convaiance or do you use your computer to order them and have UPS or the USPS drop that at your door. Or perhaps you fell trees dry wood and hand forge and cast your barrels and furniture. Do you work by oil lamp at night after tending to the hard days work on your homestead?  I get your point BUT times change we evolve like others posted each to his or her own. I applaud JK's efforts. I'd say he came full circle.

[Dwshotwell]

Here's my perspective, for what it's worth, as someone new to this hobby. I'm part of the "target market" for a Kibler kit and I happen to have already purchased one. The Kibler Colonial will be my second rifle. My first was a kit from TVM. I made a ton of mistakes but learned a lot along the way. I purchased the Kibler kit as my second rifle when I was only half way done with my first.

The bigger question is where will a builder like me go from here? I'm sure there are many who will build one gun and be finished. I'm already thinking about guns number two and number three, and about which one of those will be from a blank, really putting to use what I've learned from my previous experiences. I hope that before too long I'll be able to build from scratch rather and make unique rifles that reflect my own take.

I'm also not likely to ever buy a completed rifle. For me the interest is learning to build for myself, for better or for worse. So the availability of a Kibler kit for someone like me probably doesn't effect the professional builders.

Lastly, my thought is that the role of these kits and their market will either reflect future enthusiasts like myself and a way to get into the hobby and learn, or they will replace the CVA and Thompson Center as the kits of choice for those who build one gun and are done IF they value quality and accuracy above expense and ease.

[Keb]

I use to be a die maker / machinist and remembered thinking "that'll never work" when the decision was made to depend on a machine to do really close work. What we didn't realized was our old wore out machines weren't accurate. Everything changed when new 5 axis machines arrived on our machine shop floor. Nothing was impossible.

So my 1st thought when his kits showed up was, "How will you ever find your rifle at Friendship if you put it in the rack outside the cafeteria?"

[Craig Wilcox]

Yep, Jim makes great kits.  Kits have been getting better and better since I built my first ML pistol from a kit when I was a teen.

But think about what is left for the new builder!  Jim's kits ARE almost "snap together".  But what all actually goes into a personal rifle?

Loads of carving to learn and do.  Engraving.  Little adjustments to make shooting more accurate or more pleasant.  These things are not in any kit I am aware of.

I got a "pre-carve" Rupp Kit from MBS.  Yes, about 75-80% of the major inletting was done, getting me on the right track and learning to work in hard as a rock maple, rather than the easily formed walnut I was accustomed to.  Making allowance for slight changes in design - this is for ME in 2018, not Rupp's customer in 1793.  I could copy his carving.  I could copy the engraving, and the silver scrolling.  But, what I would have would not then be mine, but a poor copy of a Master's works.  Sure, I will use some of the artistic design, but will also incorporate some of my own ideas.

I am having fun in my retirement, learning new things, meeting lots of good, new folk.  Limited in physical ability while I heal, yet keeping that sketch pad mighty close!

Really enjoy this thread, because I had had a few thoughts as the OP did.  Prob belongs in the "Over the Back Fence" though, as it is not directly related to building, per se.

Love all y'all - and the ideas and workmanship you present!

[Robby]

I have never built a gun from a kit, but if I did it would be a Kibler, not because he has made it so easy, but because they are such beautiful guns in and of themselves, Excellent job Jim.
Aside from that, I think anything that stimulates interest is a good thing, and these kits do. There will always be people that enjoy life as the road less taken.
Robby

[Mike Brooks]

The original question is about the long term effects of Kibler's guns. It all depends how far he wants to go with them. If he gets to the point where he's offering 6 or 8 styles it's going to change things for businesses like Pecatonica etc. with the generic stock offerings with limited inletting. Why would you buy something like that when Kibler offers the same thing where 99.5% of everything but the finish is done? And, he's offering historically correct styles , not something that's close if you get back 10 ft and squint just right. His effort in level of quality is unsurpassed as well, even down to stock selection and lay out.

 If these were available in 1980 I probably would have never become even a hobby maker, I would have just put one of these together and never had a need for anything better. They really are the best thing for a guy to get a good gun when He's first starting out. So, from my perspective and my past history, they may actually stop a guy like me from ever becoming a guy who can build from a blank because Kibler's guns are so right there is no reason to resort to having to build from a blank the get a good gun. So, I guess long term there are pros and cons. More beginners end up with good guns but fewer people actually learn to build a gun.

[PPatch]

Well, long term affects of CNC'd longrifle stocks. I see nothing wrong with them and if Jim Kibler can make a decent living with his kit guns then good on him. Jim Chambers offers kit guns that are top of the line and along with his lock offerings has made a living for quite a while. Builders who purchase either gentlemans products are assured of quality backed by top notch customer service. Both Jim's offer historically correct flintlock kits, that cannot be said of a lot of other kit gun makers.

Jim and Jim's basic markets are beginning builders, and those more advanced in building, who simply want a blank canvas on which to create upon. I don't see that it matters a lot that one kit was CNC'd and the other's wood turned on a traditional stock shaper, the difference is the CNC'd stocks have extremely close tolerances for the furniture fit while the traditionally shaped stock involves more time, and some more skill, in fitting the barrel, lock and furniture.

I wish both Jim's continued success, only time is going to answer the question of can this hobby (or business) move forward into the future - but let's not forget that the flintlock rifle has never not been made since its perfection in the 18th century. To one degree or another I believe that interest in the flintlock will continue and that there will be plenty of people interested in developing the skill to create their own muzzleloaders, and I can see too the time when every part for a muzzleloader might be CNC fabricated.

That Do-Gooder...

dave

[conquerordie]

That's a great question. I think it would probably hurt some builders in the long run. I've been watching the videos of Mr. Kibler building one of his kits. I'm amazed by what he had accomplished. And right now he a makes a SMR and a Colonial rifle. Both probably the most popular rifles that people want. Soon maybe a Lehigh or a Hawken. He a great business man and I wish him the best. But small time builders will not be able to compete with those kits, they are just too good! Like Mike said, some guys will probably never start, some will go under. It's just business not a personal thing.
The people that will need the services of a gunstocker will be someone who doesn't want a perfect machined gun. Something with a human touch in its creation and inception. That's one thing a Kibler kit cannot do. Its the most technologically built longrifle out there. But it is also in my opinion soulless. It's just another machined object that modern man is obsessed with. My firearms might not be perfect, but they are created by me, with my hands, with my muscle, with my sweat, with my frustrations, with my joy. That's a human touch that certain people will always prefer and that no machine can duplicate. Unless they can already, then we have bigger things to worry about 
Greg

[SingleMalt]

While I believe Kibler's work will be a boon for the shooter who wants a more historically accurate kit than what's typically offered along with ease of assembly, one must take into account the desires of the individual.  There are those, as stated earlier, who will want one and that's it.  There will also be those who will want to explore further and eventually build from a blank.

[Elnathan]

I've been wondering about this myself, and watching the kits hit the market with mixed feelings.  Couple of thoughts:

1) I hope they will increase the appreciation among the muzzleloading community for good, historically correct architecture. There are a lot of folks out there, folks that are primarily shooters and hunters instead of builders and scholars of antiques, that only have a vague idea of what really good architecture looks like. I think that Mr. Kibler's kits are going to edge out a lot of the "Semi-custom" market that caters to that particular demographic group, which may have the long-term effect of encouraging certain other manufacturers to improve their product. Maybe.

2) Back when I was a teenager I got interested in building rifles not because I desired by be a gunsmith, but because I wanted a good replica of a Kentucky rifle so I could shoot it. There just wasn't anything even remotely resembling a longrifle available that was within my price range - even the Pedersoli and Hatfield rifles were too expensive and only marginally long enough to count as a "longrifle" for me. Now, while Kibler's kits are not inexpensive, they are apparently exceedingly easy to put together and use very high quality components, which is going to make them a very attractive proposition for someone in the position I was as a teenager (particularly if that someone has a rather more realistic appreciation of how difficult it is to build a decent gun than I did at the time), and thereby reduce what has historically been a big motivator for beginning builders. Whether this will have the effect of reducing the number of people willing to start building their own from scratch or not, I can't say - it is possible that having an easy introduction to building and a good model for subsequent builds will encourage more folks to strike out on their own.

3) The exact impact on custom makers will probably depend a lot on what models Kibler (or others following his lead) introduce. Right now Jim has two rather different kinds of guns - one is a fairly faithful reproduction of a specific NC rifle (albeit in flint instead of percussion), and the other is a very generic "colonial" rifle. At the risk of offending, I have to say that to me at least the Kibler Colonial looks more like a Kibler then any particular original colonial rifle - with that English lock I think it might end up being the brass-mounted variant of the "Early Southern Rifle" that has become so ubiquitous, as it doesn't really look like a PA rifle at all. While I imagine that right now Jim and Katherine are thinking about new models with an eye towards areas that aren't covered by other kits, I predict that eventually CNC kits will end up covering most of the most common rifles - Reading, Lancaster, Lehigh, Christian's Spring/Moravian, Early Southern, Fur Trade rifle, Classic Hawken, Jaeger, Southern Mountain, etc., while the custom makers supply the demand for copies of specific rifles, individual makers, or just more obscure schools. What I hope doesn't happen is that a couple interesting-but-offbeat originals get used as a basis for kits at the expense of more typical examples, the way that the Edward Marshall and Faber rifles have become copied ad nauseum.

I don't think that custom gunmaking is going to go away anytime soon - one of the drawbacks to very precisely machined kits with no wood left to remove is that they aren't going to be easy to kit-bash or customize. Only real options so far are patchbox, decoration, and wood type. While I'm sure that someone, a very skilled and clever someone, will eventually come around and prove that yes, you can make the Kibler Colonial into a stepped-wrist rifle, if you can pull that you can build from a blank and probably accomplish teh same result more easily. I think that is an inherent limitation with kits - the more freedom you have to do your own thing the greater the risk of failure, and the easier a kit is to build the less easy it is to alter.

4) Long term, the market may not be as saturated as some believe. Speaking as one of the much- (and often deservedly) criticized millennial generation, I'd like to observe that there is a very deep-seated dissatisfaction and frustration with the modern world as currently constituted among many younger folks, particularly men. I don't want to get into details of that here, but I do think that there is a lot of interest in self-sufficiency  - survivalism, under the name "prepping," has become mainstream if y'all haven't noticed, and here in Hippyville Asheville the Foxfire books are a perennial seller at the local bookstores - and a bit of nostalgia for a time of simpler certainties - I note that the Art of Manliness website is doing pretty well. Some of that is likely to translate into an interest in muzzlelaoders. What we younger guys often do not have is a lot of money, space, time, and/or a background in tool use. A rifle that can be assembled with basic tools in an apartment kitchen and is affordable to someone working two part-time service jobs might be just what this hobby needs to survive for another generation.



Overall, I think that the advent of CNC kits is likely to be a positive development. Making good guns cheaper and easier to acquire strikes me as an undeniable Good Thing. I have to admit that I'm inclined to be grumpy about it, partially out of snobbery (I may be the only person in the world that doesn't particularly care for the Colonial and I'm not thrilled by the idea of seeing them everywhere) and personal loyalty (Jim Chambers coached me through my first gun and Barbie's daughter attends the school at which my father teaches, so really don't want to see their business suffer), but objectively those aren't good reasons to dislike the new kits.

[snapper]

I think that the kits he is offering are a great deal.  I have been really holding back from buying one.

I dont think I will ever be a scratch builder.  I just really dont like doing it.  I think I do a good job of finishing metal and wood and can put together a nice rifle.

Last year I took delivery of a Christian Springs style rifle that Mitch Yates built for me.  First let me say that I love that rifle and I would not hesitate to order another rifle from Mitch.  Mitch did a great job and very important for me, communicated with me.  Even a year latter Mitch and I swap emails once and a while.  But, if Jim would of had his recent kit available I most likely would of never ordered a custom rifle from Mitch.  I could of simply put one of Jim's rifles together.  But I would not have the finer points of the rifle with the carvings.

I think that the kits will hurt in some respects, but on the other hand people will still want a nice custom piece.

Fleener

[webradbury]

I can see why one would be concerned about the negative affect on a smaller builder, but I don't think there will be much to be worried about.  I would love to have a Kibler gun, but I'd just as soon have a Mike Brooks fowler or any number of the fine guns being produced out there. My point is, Kibler's guns are very nice, but they are not the "end all, be all" of flintlocks.  There are still very many options out there for the discerning flintlock collector.  Just my 2 cents. Will Bradbury