Author Topic: Making a long gun ... ?  (Read 6915 times)

Offline smart dog

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2019, 04:25:05 PM »
Hi Folks,
Please keep the discussion about traditional muzzleloaders.  We don't discuss clips, magazines, or AR-15s here.

dave
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2019, 04:52:07 PM »
A kit muzzleloader long gun, like a kit model plane, is an assembly, not a build.  This is not a bad thing, it is what it is.  Not everyone has the skills, and/or tools, and/or time for such a venture.  I'll add - there appear to be "levels" of kits, some are literally screwdriver built, others require varied levels of skill, tools and time.

To build (or "make") a long gun depends on one's definition of those words, particularly the word "make".  In terms of a long gun build, will all the components be created from sourced raw materials?  Where does one draw the line at "raw materials"?  Will it still be a "made muzzleloader" if one purchases one or more pre-made: barrel, lock, double set trigger, castings for butt plate and trigger guard and nose?  If one has a plank of wood for the gun stock, will the completed stock be an equally "made" stock no matter if a CNC machine was used or manual chisels, rasps, and drill?  Are there levels or categories of "made" guns?   

What is considered to "make a muzzleloader"?

   
Hi,
This discussion has come up often over the years.  Personally, I don't understand why it matters.  I unabashedly call myself a traditional muzzleloader gunsmith.  I can do everything except make and rifle barrels.  In truth, with the high quality of modern commercially made barrels and from a business perspective, I'd be a fool to make my own.  I really don't care what label someone wants to adopt as long as they don't misrepresent their work.  Recently, a finished Jim Kibler colonial rifle kit was on sale on TOW's website and described as a hand made rifle.  There was no mention that it was a Kibler kit.  In my opinion, that was tantamount to fraud.         

dave
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Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2019, 05:38:31 PM »
I don't see where it matters either. I consider intelligence to be multifaceted, I am very good in some pursuits and a dunce at others but still consider myself an intelligent man.

It is the same with gun building/making/assembling, only the top tier guys have the accumulated skills to "do it all". The rest of us fall into our comfort zone at different levels of competence and produce what we are satisfied with. Some may be great at one aspect of building and not so great at others, I know I am.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2019, 05:49:25 PM »
It's about language, words mean things. I ask "what kind of gun are you making". You respond " A Lancaster build". Why would you add the word "Build"? Or, "My next gun is a Woodbury build". What the heck does that mean? Seems to be common practice but it rubs my fur backwards. Very annoying, of course I'm nearly always annoyed these days. :P Folks don't make guns anymore, they now make "builds". Seems to be a cross over from the bolt gun crowd. Carry on......
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Offline James Rogers

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2019, 06:04:37 PM »
Many times accompanying "build" is "fitment" : )

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2019, 04:10:22 AM »
Think of it this way; you build a house, you may build an engine for your hotrod and you may build a gun, it is all the same, parts put together for the end result.

On the other hand I don't "build" a garden, I plant one or make one but "build" doesn't fit.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2019, 04:23:46 AM »
Quote
Recently, a finished Jim Kibler colonial rifle kit was on sale on TOW's website and described as a hand made rifle.  There was no mention that it was a Kibler kit.  In my opinion, that was tantamount to fraud. 
 
Amen, I think I would have to have pointed that out to TOW!
Dennis      
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Offline Terry Reynolds

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2019, 05:42:09 AM »
Think of it this way; you build a house, you may build an engine for your hotrod and you may build a gun, it is all the same, parts put together for the end result.

On the other hand I don't "build" a garden, I plant one or make one but "build" doesn't fit.

I agree Eric.
aka “digger658”

Offline smart dog

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2019, 04:41:47 PM »
It's about language, words mean things. I ask "what kind of gun are you making". You respond " A Lancaster build". Why would you add the word "Build"? Or, "My next gun is a Woodbury build". What the heck does that mean? Seems to be common practice but it rubs my fur backwards. Very annoying, of course I'm nearly always annoyed these days. :P Folks don't make guns anymore, they now make "builds". Seems to be a cross over from the bolt gun crowd. Carry on......
Mike,
I agree words matter and so does grammar.  These days we take verbs, like "build", and turn them into nouns, and nouns, like "text", and turn them into verbs. I guess I am less annoyed by that than I am when someone calls a rifle "Lancaster" and it has some generic stock with hardware labeled "Lancaster" by the parts supplier.  If you look at TOW's gun consignment sale pages, you see many guns labelled Christian's Spring, Lehigh, English fowler, etc,  that have very little in common with originals and the label is pretty dubious.

dave   
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2019, 05:19:03 PM »
It's about language, words mean things. I ask "what kind of gun are you making". You respond " A Lancaster build". Why would you add the word "Build"? Or, "My next gun is a Woodbury build". What the heck does that mean? Seems to be common practice but it rubs my fur backwards. Very annoying, of course I'm nearly always annoyed these days. :P Folks don't make guns anymore, they now make "builds". Seems to be a cross over from the bolt gun crowd. Carry on......
Mike,
I agree words matter and so does grammar.  These days we take verbs, like "build", and turn them into nouns, and nouns, like "text", and turn them into verbs. I guess I am less annoyed by that than I am when someone calls a rifle "Lancaster" and it has some generic stock with hardware labeled "Lancaster" by the parts supplier.  If you look at TOW's gun consignment sale pages, you see many guns labelled Christian's Spring, Lehigh, English fowler, etc,  that have very little in common with originals and the label is pretty dubious.

dave
HA! My favorite is "Early Virginia". Seems to be a catch all for just about anything iron mounted. Or how about "SMR"? Seems to cover everything iron mounted with later features than "Early Virginia". Took me about three years to figure out what the abbreviation "SMR" even meant. Another favorite is "Smoothie"...too annoying to even discuss but is on par with "Smoke Pole". ::)  Also add to my hate list: "Flinter" , "Rock Lock", "Front Stuffer" and a new one I read recently, "Poke Stalk". And don't forget the controversial term "Canoe Gun". Sure is fun complaining about stuff. ;D
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 05:27:03 PM by Mike Brooks »
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Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2019, 06:54:56 PM »
  Well after reading through all this Nit picking. I've come to my own conclusions.
 First is the kit issue. What your doing is assembling someone else's work. Period you didn't make anything, you didn't build anything. You assembled it.
  Now you want to make a gun. So you get a  barrel, lock and blank of wood on the bench. You have an idea what you want it to represent.
  So you start making/ creating  that gun. Which in my simple opinion is the word we should use.
  Then when you are done. You have shown your artistic talents and workmanship. Now you are a craftsmen.
  Some of you are true Master's of this art / hobby we do like to do.
 Ok people have at it......!!!    Oldtravler

Offline sqrldog

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2019, 07:20:46 PM »
My take on this is WE HAVE JUST ABOUT RUN OUT OF SOMETHING TO ARGUE ABOUT!!!!!

Offline sqrldog

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2019, 07:47:13 PM »
Mike
Poke stalk is not a new term for a gun as a child I remember my grandfather referring to his smoothbore (smoothie 😁)single barrel shotgun as a poke stalk. May just be a southern terminology. It generally refers to a cheap single barrel shotgun, whether modern or black powder.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2019, 07:55:10 PM »
My take on this is WE HAVE JUST ABOUT RUN OUT OF SOMETHING TO ARGUE ABOUT!!!!!
Gonna be a long winter ain't it? ;)
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline sqrldog

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2019, 07:56:27 PM »
Yep

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2019, 07:57:48 PM »
who's arguing?  this is totally a matter of subjective opinion, no more or less.

if one bought ...
  • the barrel w/installed breech plug and drilled for a touch hole liner and dovetailed for lugs and sights
  • a functional flint lock
  • all the furniture
  • a "pre-carved" stock
... is that a build or assembly?  if considered an assembly, what of the above parts need to be in a "rawer" form to be accepted as a "build"?



 

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2019, 07:59:48 PM »
Mike
Poke stalk is not a new term for a gun as a child I remember my grandfather referring to his smoothbore (smoothie 😁)single barrel shotgun as a poke stalk. May just be a southern terminology. It generally refers to a cheap single barrel shotgun, whether modern or black powder.
I figured that may be the origin of the term. We have poke in Iowa, but nobody ever made a gun out of it as far as I know. ;D I thought cheap single barrel shotguns was an Iowa farmer thing. I think every farmer in Iowa has one with a busted stock he wants me to fix. ::) Obviously cheap single barrel shotguns are universal in the USA.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2019, 08:03:16 PM »
who's arguing?  this is totally a matter of subjective opinion, no more or less.

if one bought ...
  • the barrel w/installed breech plug and drilled for a touch hole liner and dovetailed for lugs and sights
  • a functional flint lock
  • all the furniture
  • a "pre-carved" stock
... is that a build or assembly?  if considered an assembly, what of the above parts need to be in a "rawer" form to be accepted as a "build"?
Arguing? No, not me. I'm just complaining because I ain't got nothin' else. If you read the above you would realize we have completely eliminated the term "build". It is now VERBOTEN. Now, I gotta get back to my Lehigh build...….oopps. :o
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline sqrldog

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2019, 08:10:46 PM »
Terminology means little to me as it will vary from each individual on the ALR. I am more interested in promoting the muzzleloading interest than determining if he made bought or built a muzzleloader. Tim

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2019, 08:15:04 PM »
   Amen Tim

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2019, 08:32:43 PM »
In an effort to keep this thread alive, I offer the following:  I do not refer to myself as a gun maker, or gun builder, but an artisan.  When pressed further, I explain that I make muzzle loading firearms from the 17th, 18th and 19th C.  So far, I think everyone understands that.  But sometimes, I have to go further to say that I buy the components for a particular piece from suppliers and make the firearm in my shop, usually from a plank of walnut or curly maple.  Then I have to explain curly maple.  Most recent conversation of this nature was at a wine tasting session on the Ruby Princess during a cruise of the Mexican Riviera in December.  The gentleman next to me turned to me and asked:  "So, what's your story!" I started by saying, "I was born at an early age."
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2019, 09:22:41 PM »
I despise the word "build".  It has become a major peeve of mine.  It is everywhere.  "build quality", "my next build", "I'm building a gun", build, build, build....... with everyone and their brother "building" AR-15's, slapping parts together like Legos.... drives me up a wall.  I haven't made a rifle in a while now, but when I do I MAKE them, I durn sure don't "build" them!   ;D

It's funny how almost no one, even the most capable, wants to call themselves a "gunsmith" these days....

I call it "building a gun" or "my next built" because I can't think of anything else to call it.

Making locks is a skill set few have achieved and there are a few of us on this forum.
The LOCK is on the BACK side of the plate.I have used a number of L&R externals and some from Jim
Chambers Late Ketland which is a good lock as it comes from Jim or Barby.
My caplocks are made with cast hammers and usually but not always, my own shop made
plates.I showed a small Manton lock with L&R externals to a man at Friendship a few years
ago and he said it was and L&R lock and simply couldn't comprehend the idea that the real
and functional part of the lock was on the back of the lock plate.
I still have a few locks to make but am concentrating on set triggers for a while and have yet
to make up my mind as to whether or not I will do any more locks.I have had most of the material
for set triggers on hand for a very long time and can see no reason to let it be tossed after I quit
for good.
In closing I will say this forum has to be the best in this genre and SO EASY to use and I am
very glad to be a part of it with over 5000 postings to my name.

Bob Roller

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2019, 09:24:32 PM »
A kit muzzleloader long gun, like a kit model plane, is an assembly, not a build.  This is not a bad thing, it is what it is.  Not everyone has the skills, and/or tools, and/or time for such a venture.  I'll add - there appear to be "levels" of kits, some are literally screwdriver built, others require varied levels of skill, tools and time.

To build (or "make") a long gun depends on one's definition of those words, particularly the word "make".  In terms of a long gun build, will all the components be created from sourced raw materials?  Where does one draw the line at "raw materials"?  Will it still be a "made muzzleloader" if one purchases one or more pre-made: barrel, lock, double set trigger, castings for butt plate and trigger guard and nose?  If one has a plank of wood for the gun stock, will the completed stock be an equally "made" stock no matter if a CNC machine was used or manual chisels, rasps, and drill?  Are there levels or categories of "made" guns?   

What is considered to "make a muzzleloader"?

   
Hi,
This discussion has come up often over the years.  Personally, I don't understand why it matters.  I unabashedly call myself a traditional muzzleloader gunsmith.  I can do everything except make and rifle barrels.  In truth, with the high quality of modern commercially made barrels and from a business perspective, I'd be a fool to make my own.  I really don't care what label someone wants to adopt as long as they don't misrepresent their work.  Recently, a finished Jim Kibler colonial rifle kit was on sale on TOW's website and described as a hand made rifle.  There was no mention that it was a Kibler kit.  In my opinion, that was tantamount to fraud.         

dave

If not fraud then certainly a misrepresentation of the rifle.

Bob Roller

Offline Ecramer

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2019, 07:33:20 PM »
Well, I guarantee I'm not a "real" gunmaker. I assembled a CVA Kentucky rifle from a kit when I was 15 or 16, and a CVA pistol from a kit a year later. Both were percussion and I haven't "built" since. I admire those who have the tools, skills and time to build "from scratch" and I think artists like Runastav and several others here are simply amazing. I may pursue "real" building when I retire in a few more years.

Having said that I'm in the camp that notes the history of the gunmakers from the 18th and 19th century -- they bought barrels, locks and even furniture as often as not. I can't remember the source, but I once heard it took more than 20 pounds of steel to make a rifle barrel -- and from an economic standpoint it was far cheaper to ship finished barrels than to ship the steel from which to make them. Our forbears weren't stupid, and wanted to make money, not lose it.

Offline shootrj2003

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Re: Making a long gun ... ?
« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2023, 02:20:28 AM »
 This i post I s a little long in the tooth,a little like me,but an interesting subject,similar to the old time rod or motorcycle ( chopper) builder,hard to really define.i built a few kits in the past and learned things. To be a true flintlock or percussion gunsmith is to be a blacksmith of some ability also,like our famous Wallace, a master of many disciplines of metal work.I was a master farrier at one time,but there were other better master farriers and my back quit first,since then I’ve been a hobby blacksmith when the skill is needed for my various projects,I’m also a woodworker of some skill,a leather worker,a brass worker,a Horner,none would I consider a master level ,as a rifle shooter I have attained an expert grade in one discipline,but not master yet.
   However in 2019 I built the crowning achievement of my muzzleloader building,I think it’s beautiful as do many others ,but it’s not a master grade rifle,but I am satisfied . Though I see the mistakes I made each time and the achievements I made each time I use and handle it ,I am happy.
  I finished and fitted it using all rough cast parts,but I did not cast them,I fitted and inletted the lock and trigger system ,with hand chisels ,but I did not make the lock or trigger mechanism,( L&R) I did make the stock from a board of high grade curly maple using a bandsaw,hand chisels and rasps and files and a electric hand drill( I don’t advise curly maple as a first time handchisel choice!) those who know know this! I the middle of fitting the lock,a second of impatience,and chisel duller than it should have been,resulted in a cracked stock on the right side all the way through to the ramrod hole ,I did have the skill and glue to fix it solidly and have shot with many heavy loads it holds up( titebond III!) ,and I did not make the barrel it’s a Lyman GPR barrel which will eventually be returned to its home when I buy a custom .54 barrel.
  All this talk is to illustrate what gunbuilder or gunsmith can be or better yet was in the flintlock era.many were Wallace Gisslers but many were also guys who built guns using barrels made by barrel making blacksmiths or locks made by…locksmiths who mostly made locks ,these parts especially rifled barrels were often made by guys who were specialists and sort of like today got orders from gunsmiths for locks ,barrels and even flints, many in America,though did make them…Lock,Stock and barrel ,but if youYou didn’t,couldn’t  or can’t do it all don’t feel bad ,not everybody did !